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United States1699 Posts
The sponsors are interested in international viewers?
I'd imagine most BW fans would be open to SC2. Isn't a big reason BW is more popular in Korea that you have to buy an SC2 account? BW you can play in the PC Bangs for no extra cost. And of course they're still attached to BW because it's still a great game and is still played professionally. I don't think it's elitism like foreign BW fans. SC2 seems growing in Korea already, with the last GSL finals having the biggest audience despite having no live Kpop.
Of course, there's still viewers for BW, including myself, so it's really sad if it doesn't remain around any longer.
I guess if they are looking for international viewers for sponsorship, the best we can do is promote BW to all the SC2 fans and show a larger global fanbase. I guess worldwide support for BW is hard because only Koreans can really compete, and there's no hope for foreigners to ever catch up there or to have foreign tournaments much at all. Maybe in Blizz included BW in their world championships or something it would help, but Blizzard seems to really want to support SC2, understandably.
Seems like any elitist attitude that would turn off SC2 fans is the worst thing anyone could do for BW.
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TBH, once Korea switches to SC2, foreigners will have no chance to catch up anyway. Casual viewers will gradually lose interest because of the lack of players they can identify with, and sponsors will lose their marketing target they care so much about. The SC2 scene will slowly (over the span of two or so years) degenerate into what WC3 used to be in it's prime.
Unless, of course, Blizzard fixes the game. But it's unlikely.
You can already see the signs of people being tired of the Korean domination. Even many people registered on TL say they turn the stream off once there are only Koreans left in the tournament. I imagine it's more frequent among those not dedicated enough to make a TL account. It's only going to get worse once KeSPA teams switch.
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On April 06 2012 05:22 danl9rm wrote:
I don't know what to say except WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Thanks rotin!
edit: Jaedong first SC2 BONJWA please.
JD MAKE IT HAPPEN :D
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On April 11 2012 01:09 Destroyr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 05:22 danl9rm wrote:
I don't know what to say except WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
Thanks rotin!
edit: Jaedong first SC2 BONJWA please. JD MAKE IT HAPPEN :D
Guys, I can't speak for everyone, but listen for a bit.
Jaedong makes me really happy playing BW. He was one of the first players I followed and through his dominance and "slumps" I've cheered for him. So while it's easy to say JD BONJWA- remember that it's still the end of an era for a lot of people if he switches. =[
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On April 10 2012 23:22 white_horse wrote:2. The worry that a lot of fans are going to leave while a lot of players might retire if they end up with a bad format (players might retire simply because of the fact that they might be forced to play SC2). 3. The article also says that kespa is pretty much forced to include SC2 because it's nearly impossible to get sponsors for BW. Companies acknowledge that a hefty fanbase still exists but from their perspective BW is just too old as a game and doesn't attract enough international viewership, which is what they are interested in (advertising their companies to the world).IMO BW is finally feeling the effects of turnover and the transition in esports to the casual, easy gaming era (SC2 and now LoL). I feel like 2012 really might be the last starleague, and this might be the beginning of the end of BW with the way things are going. It'd be hard but still ok to take in a close of BW on it's own but I'm going to be pissed if kespa accelerates the close with some stupid fuckup like a deadheaded business move. If they honestly cared about the BW fans and the players, they should decide to run a separate league for SC2. Anything else and they might as well ask all the BW fans to leave because BW fans don't give a shit about SC2. I'm not definitely going to watch some shitty combined BW-SC2 league.
I don't really understand. Someone please explain to me how this makes sense from a business perspective O_o.
Outside of Samsung, and Ace/T8 for different reasons, what do any of the existing companies have to gain from marketing worldwide? if this is talking about new sponsors, then that sorta defeats the purpose of taking the existing, domestically sponsored BW teams and transitioning them O_o, what do they have to gain from this? Just make a seperate league with new sponsors then who are interested and can benefit from "international exposure". Are they seriously planning on using Starcraft 2 to promote their companies internationally? Either way (New sponsors, Old sponsors) makes no sense with this hybrid setup. They never really cared about international viewership before, its still doing well in Korea.
I remember in the After Talk Betting Scandal episode, they commented all the companies are operating at a loss, and they do it for the progamer image.Is this a complete shift in the "eSports" business model in Korea then? will it even work with large corporations are involved? Star2 has proven itself internationally, for now. But its not exactly proved to be sustainable in Korea.
Am I missing something here?
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On April 11 2012 01:41 cLicK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 23:22 white_horse wrote:2. The worry that a lot of fans are going to leave while a lot of players might retire if they end up with a bad format (players might retire simply because of the fact that they might be forced to play SC2). 3. The article also says that kespa is pretty much forced to include SC2 because it's nearly impossible to get sponsors for BW. Companies acknowledge that a hefty fanbase still exists but from their perspective BW is just too old as a game and doesn't attract enough international viewership, which is what they are interested in (advertising their companies to the world).IMO BW is finally feeling the effects of turnover and the transition in esports to the casual, easy gaming era (SC2 and now LoL). I feel like 2012 really might be the last starleague, and this might be the beginning of the end of BW with the way things are going. It'd be hard but still ok to take in a close of BW on it's own but I'm going to be pissed if kespa accelerates the close with some stupid fuckup like a deadheaded business move. If they honestly cared about the BW fans and the players, they should decide to run a separate league for SC2. Anything else and they might as well ask all the BW fans to leave because BW fans don't give a shit about SC2. I'm not definitely going to watch some shitty combined BW-SC2 league. I don't really understand. Someone please explain to me how this makes sense from a business perspective O_o. Outside of Samsung, and Ace/T8 for different reasons, what do any of the existing companies have to gain from marketing worldwide? if this is talking about new sponsors, then that sorta defeats the purpose of taking the existing, domestically sponsored BW teams and transitioning them O_o, what do they have to gain from this? Just make a seperate league with new sponsors then who are interested and can benefit from "international exposure". Are they seriously planning on using Starcraft 2 to promote their companies internationally? Either way (New sponsors, Old sponsors) makes no sense with this hybrid setup. They never really cared about international viewership before, its still doing well in Korea. I remember in the After Talk Betting Scandal episode, they commented all the companies are operating at a loss, and they do it for the progamer image.Is this a complete shift in the "eSports" business model in Korea then? will it even work with large corporations are involved? Star2 has proven itself internationally, for now. But its not exactly proved to be sustainable in Korea. Am I missing something here?
I don't understand it either. So the game wasn't old in 2006-07 and the game is old now? Where did they draw the line? So 8 years isn't old but 14 is?
I also agree with you regarding the foreign audience. For almost 10 years they completely ignored the foreign audience and now, all of a sudden, they are switching to SC2 because of it? The foreign audience won't last a whole lot when the game gets completely dominated by Koreans again and gets older.
I think the Savior scandal has affected the scene a lot more than people thought. But then again, wouldn't it affect SC2 indirectly too? The players will be pretty much the same and the scene is as vulnerable as BW scene.
They way I see it, Blizzard is putting a lot of money to make this transition happen. There is no other explanation in my mind.
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1019 Posts
The companies that I was writing about are the potential sponsors for OSL or proleague, not current sponsors. According to the article, these potential companies want to advertise to a bigger market, which they can if it's through SC2. Global advertisement is huge for major corporations - you can make tons of revenue from abroad. That's why kespa is putting SC2 into proleague because they are desperate for sponsors. It's pretty much impossible to get sponsorship through BW alone now.
The companies that are currently sponsoring BW teams are probably operating on the mindset like any other company that runs a corporate-sponsored professional sports team - they can strengthen their brand image while cultivating brand loyalty. This is probably why major corporations like STX or SKT sponsor BW teams, and why other giant corporations like Hyundai, Doosan, Korean Air, LG sponsor baseball teams, volleyball teams, etc etc
+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2012 01:54 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:41 cLicK wrote:On April 10 2012 23:22 white_horse wrote:2. The worry that a lot of fans are going to leave while a lot of players might retire if they end up with a bad format (players might retire simply because of the fact that they might be forced to play SC2). 3. The article also says that kespa is pretty much forced to include SC2 because it's nearly impossible to get sponsors for BW. Companies acknowledge that a hefty fanbase still exists but from their perspective BW is just too old as a game and doesn't attract enough international viewership, which is what they are interested in (advertising their companies to the world).IMO BW is finally feeling the effects of turnover and the transition in esports to the casual, easy gaming era (SC2 and now LoL). I feel like 2012 really might be the last starleague, and this might be the beginning of the end of BW with the way things are going. It'd be hard but still ok to take in a close of BW on it's own but I'm going to be pissed if kespa accelerates the close with some stupid fuckup like a deadheaded business move. If they honestly cared about the BW fans and the players, they should decide to run a separate league for SC2. Anything else and they might as well ask all the BW fans to leave because BW fans don't give a shit about SC2. I'm not definitely going to watch some shitty combined BW-SC2 league. I don't really understand. Someone please explain to me how this makes sense from a business perspective O_o. Outside of Samsung, and Ace/T8 for different reasons, what do any of the existing companies have to gain from marketing worldwide? if this is talking about new sponsors, then that sorta defeats the purpose of taking the existing, domestically sponsored BW teams and transitioning them O_o, what do they have to gain from this? Just make a seperate league with new sponsors then who are interested and can benefit from "international exposure". Are they seriously planning on using Starcraft 2 to promote their companies internationally? Either way (New sponsors, Old sponsors) makes no sense with this hybrid setup. They never really cared about international viewership before, its still doing well in Korea. I remember in the After Talk Betting Scandal episode, they commented all the companies are operating at a loss, and they do it for the progamer image.Is this a complete shift in the "eSports" business model in Korea then? will it even work with large corporations are involved? Star2 has proven itself internationally, for now. But its not exactly proved to be sustainable in Korea. Am I missing something here? I don't understand it either. So the game wasn't old in 2006-07 and the game is old now? Where did they draw the line? So 8 years isn't old but 14 is? I also agree with you regarding the foreign audience. For almost 10 years they completely ignored the foreign audience and now, all of a sudden, they are switching to SC2 because of it? The foreign audience won't last a whole lot when the game gets completely dominated by Koreans again and gets older. I think the Savior scandal has affected the scene a lot more than people thought. But then again, wouldn't it affect SC2 indirectly too? The players will be pretty much the same and the scene is as vulnerable as BW scene. They way I see it, Blizzard is putting a lot of money to make this transition happen. There is no other explanation in my mind.
If BW really disappears, that is bad news for SC2, LoL, and pretty much every esport out there. If a giant like BW disappears, what makes anyone think that niched games like SC2 are going to last longer? What happens if they release SC3? What if LoL 2 comes out? This is the heart of the problem with the whole "esports" thing. The community is ultimately going to jump from one game to another when you look at a span of 5 to 10 to 15 years. Do you really think people are going to care a lot about SC2 in 2020? What about even 2015? There will be flashier and better games.
If there was any long-term successful esport, then it should have been BW. There is no other game on this planet that has the spectator-friendly, high skill-ceiling, and balanced game like BW. There's a reason why people still play a game thats more than a decade old. 10 years is a millenia in the gaming industry!!! Unless somebody can make a game with such characteristics again, I don't think there is going to be any game that can last as long as BW.
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United States1699 Posts
There has seemed to be this misconception among koreans that foreigners are all making millions in SC2. I hope false information isn't influencing their business decisions. Although I don't really blame them for that misunderstanding. If I heard Idra makes as much as Flash I would think all the foreigners must be loaded, too.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On April 11 2012 01:56 white_horse wrote:
If BW really disappears, that is bad news for SC2, LoL, and pretty much every esport out there. If a giant like BW disappears, what makes anyone think that niched games like SC2 are going to last longer? What happens if they release SC3? What if LoL 2 comes out? This is the heart of the problem with the whole "esports" thing. The community is ultimately going to jump from one game to another when you look at a span of 5 to 10 to 15 years. Do you really think people are going to care a lot about SC2 in 2020? What about even 2015? There will be flashier and better games.
If there was any long-term successful esport, then it should have been BW. There is no other game on this planet that has the spectator-friendly, high skill-ceiling, and balanced game like BW. There's a reason why people still play a game thats more than a decade old. 10 years is a millenia in the gaming industry!!! Unless somebody can make a game with such characteristics again, I don't think there is going to be any game that can last as long as BW.
Are people making the argument that SC2 or LoL is supposed to last longer? I don't think they are. I think people expect games to rotate frequently and that's actually what they see as progress. I'm not sure I agree that BW disappearing has any bearing on the legitimacy of other games. It seems to me that sponsors don't mind switching what game they are attached to as long as it makes sense for them to continue working with organizations they trust and they are getting an amount of exposure that is appropriate.
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Canada11450 Posts
On April 11 2012 03:23 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:56 white_horse wrote:
If BW really disappears, that is bad news for SC2, LoL, and pretty much every esport out there. If a giant like BW disappears, what makes anyone think that niched games like SC2 are going to last longer? What happens if they release SC3? What if LoL 2 comes out? This is the heart of the problem with the whole "esports" thing. The community is ultimately going to jump from one game to another when you look at a span of 5 to 10 to 15 years. Do you really think people are going to care a lot about SC2 in 2020? What about even 2015? There will be flashier and better games.
If there was any long-term successful esport, then it should have been BW. There is no other game on this planet that has the spectator-friendly, high skill-ceiling, and balanced game like BW. There's a reason why people still play a game thats more than a decade old. 10 years is a millenia in the gaming industry!!! Unless somebody can make a game with such characteristics again, I don't think there is going to be any game that can last as long as BW. Are people making the argument that SC2 or LoL is supposed to last longer? I don't think they are. I think people expect games to rotate frequently and that's actually what they see as progress. I'm not sure I agree that BW disappearing has any bearing on the legitimacy of other games. It seems to me that sponsors don't mind switching what game they are attached to as long as it makes sense for them to continue working with organizations they trust and they are getting an amount of exposure that is appropriate.
Maybe so, but longevity used to be one those arguments of why Starcraft progaming was unique and why Korea was able to build such a strong scene. I feel like more and more this argument has fallen to the wayside.
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On April 11 2012 03:23 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:56 white_horse wrote:
If BW really disappears, that is bad news for SC2, LoL, and pretty much every esport out there. If a giant like BW disappears, what makes anyone think that niched games like SC2 are going to last longer? What happens if they release SC3? What if LoL 2 comes out? This is the heart of the problem with the whole "esports" thing. The community is ultimately going to jump from one game to another when you look at a span of 5 to 10 to 15 years. Do you really think people are going to care a lot about SC2 in 2020? What about even 2015? There will be flashier and better games.
If there was any long-term successful esport, then it should have been BW. There is no other game on this planet that has the spectator-friendly, high skill-ceiling, and balanced game like BW. There's a reason why people still play a game thats more than a decade old. 10 years is a millenia in the gaming industry!!! Unless somebody can make a game with such characteristics again, I don't think there is going to be any game that can last as long as BW. Are people making the argument that SC2 or LoL is supposed to last longer? I don't think they are. I think people expect games to rotate frequently and that's actually what they see as progress. I'm not sure I agree that BW disappearing has any bearing on the legitimacy of other games. It seems to me that sponsors don't mind switching what game they are attached to as long as it makes sense for them to continue working with organizations they trust and they are getting an amount of exposure that is appropriate.
That's the problem. This means "esports" (hate that word) will degenerate back into a mere marketing tool for hardware producers and game developers, because no game can become mainstream if it's going to be replaced after a couple of years or so. And if the game is not mainstream, then there's no reason for sponsors that are not related to gaming to invest money.
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On April 11 2012 01:56 white_horse wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The companies that I was writing about are the potential sponsors for OSL or proleague, not current sponsors. According to the article, these potential companies want to advertise to a bigger market, which they can if it's through SC2. Global advertisement is huge for major corporations - you can make tons of revenue from abroad. That's why kespa is putting SC2 into proleague because they are desperate for sponsors. It's pretty much impossible to get sponsorship through BW alone now.
The companies that are currently sponsoring BW teams are probably operating on the mindset like any other company that runs a corporate-sponsored professional sports team - they can strengthen their brand image while cultivating brand loyalty. This is probably why major corporations like STX or SKT sponsor BW teams, and why other giant corporations like Hyundai, Doosan, Korean Air, LG sponsor baseball teams, volleyball teams, etc etc
Your definetly right that there lacking sponsors atm 
had to shorten this gigantic wall of text...lol. Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just pondering why these existing companies are doing this. This is from a corporations standpoint, Im not bashing Star2 as a game, looking at it from an investors viewpoint.
I just dont see the value of potentially destroying what you already built with BW to risk it on a game that isn't even established domestically yet. These 5 companies (KT, SKT, Woongjin, CJ, STX) as far as I know have no recognizable brand internationally :S. We love these companies but we cant really support them. Heck we'd all be willing to pay for proleague streams and sponsor an OSL ourselves if we could do it.
We can't sign up for KT or SKT cell phone contracts, no reason to invest in STX shipping, or to buy CJ or Woongjin products we cant even find. Thats the difference between Samsung, LG and STX and CJ. Samsung and the other companies you pointed out are already dominant domestically and internationally. The domestic sports teams help promote the brand. Buts its an already established brand, also not like we recognize Samsung from K-League first/more or something :X. I feel Star2 sponsors revolve around technology and gaming so they can actually benefit by directly targeting gamers (Razer, Twitch, IGN). Major corporations (these 5) with no relation whatsoever to gaming need to rely on a brand(maybe the telecoms), which in this case isn't available let alone appealing to an international fanbase. Whats in it for them :X? This will be great for Star2 as it'll bring this influx of players, for better or for worse depending how anti-bw or anti-korean you are...lol.
With no base to build on, I don't see the benefits for these 5 companies. Star2 is pretty voltile atm. Star2 fans are relying on HOTS, LOTV + BW players + "more time" to further develop their game. Its true that BW proleague cant be sustained much longer with internal sponsors (SK Planet, KeSPA funding T8) but I don't think Star2 is ready yet, particulary with the state of the game + LoL dominating, for major corporations to take the risk of dissolving BW and investing in something so risky. So yeah I completely agree with you. It makes sense, timings a bit weird. I just don't see why they think there going to get international uh...support from this
Im no expert. Clearly they think its the right move if their doing it. Its just me a bit confused from a sponsor standpoint. They've been very good to BW. Taking financial losses and paying salaries to our heroes. I don't wanna see them suffer for this either. Worst case is they dissolve the teams and then its over
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On April 10 2012 10:32 PhoenixDark wrote:
So tired of elitist BW fans shitting on SC2 while refusing to honest or consistent. Guess what, SC1/BW wasn't particularly amazing or good in its first couple years either. SC2 is growing rapidly and will soon reach an impressive level of play
Always love the argument that SC2 is still in the same developmental year BW was in 2000.
Guess what, if that was actually so people would still be playing Steppes of War and Lost Temple and you wouldn't EVER see true macro games. You are just another person who has no idea what they are talking about when it comes to BW.
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On April 10 2012 23:22 white_horse wrote:1. The article does say that kespa has not made a final decision but they report that kespa has already talked with the korean representative of blizzard among other things, and the article suggests that they basically are going to include SC2 in the next season. 2. The article talks a lot about how they are going to implement SC2 into proleague and what format and even about totally replacing BW with SC2. Then it discusses the effects on BW fans, and the existing player base, and the worry that a lot of fans are going to leave while a lot of players might retire if they end up with a bad format (players might retire simply because of the fact that they might be forced to play SC2). 3. The article also says that kespa is pretty much forced to include SC2 because it's nearly impossible to get sponsors for BW. Companies acknowledge that a hefty fanbase still exists but from their perspective BW is just too old as a game and doesn't attract enough international viewership, which is what they are interested in (advertising their companies to the world). IMO BW is finally feeling the effects of turnover and the transition in esports to the casual, easy gaming era (SC2 and now LoL). I feel like 2012 really might be the last starleague, and this might be the beginning of the end of BW with the way things are going. It'd be hard but still ok to take in a close of BW on it's own but I'm going to be pissed if kespa accelerates the close with some stupid fuckup like a deadheaded business move. If they honestly cared about the BW fans and the players, they should decide to run a separate league for SC2. Anything else and they might as well ask all the BW fans to leave because BW fans don't give a shit about SC2. I'm not definitely going to watch some shitty combined BW-SC2 league.
Looks like all the people who said KT and SKT had no benefits of expanding to the international audience because they don't sell any products abroad were dead wrong.
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STX is recognized internationally, but afaik they don't sell anything for ordinary people - they're a ship building company. STX Europe is actually the biggest ship building company in Europe.
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On April 11 2012 01:59 Gfire wrote:
There has seemed to be this misconception among koreans that foreigners are all making millions in SC2. I hope false information isn't influencing their business decisions. Although I don't really blame them for that misunderstanding. If I heard Idra makes as much as Flash I would think all the foreigners must be loaded, too.
I think the people that are making these decisions base it on a little more than just hearsay.
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I'm slightly optimistic that they are considering the possibility of implementing SC2-only league instead of hybrid abomination. Might as well go out with bang then a pathetic whimper. While I won't probably follow them anymore, I sincerely hope all pro-gamers are able to emerge from the transition relatively unscathed.
Edit: Never rely on Google Translate. They are utter garbage (at Eng-Kor).
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On April 11 2012 00:33 maybenexttime wrote:
TBH, once Korea switches to SC2, foreigners will have no chance to catch up anyway. Casual viewers will gradually lose interest because of the lack of players they can identify with, and sponsors will lose their marketing target they care so much about. The SC2 scene will slowly (over the span of two or so years) degenerate into what WC3 used to be in it's prime.
Unless, of course, Blizzard fixes the game. But it's unlikely.
You can already see the signs of people being tired of the Korean domination. Even many people registered on TL say they turn the stream off once there are only Koreans left in the tournament. I imagine it's more frequent among those not dedicated enough to make a TL account. It's only going to get worse once KeSPA teams switch.
Actually, I think KeSPA switching over to SC2 might now mean as much domination as people expect, or at least not as much domination on a regular basis just due to scheduling.
I remember reading a blog post from FXOBoss talking about how his team FXO would have much less time to send players abroad if they are part of an SC2 Proleague since their schedule would just become too busy to accommodate for the majority of foreign events. I suspect other teams, KeSPA or SC2, may face similar difficulties trying to send their players abroad.
So perhaps this might result in many fewer Koreans playing in foreign tournaments, but the few that do go are more likely to win due to the great increase in competition and skill level being fostered in Korea post-switch.
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How the hell is this gonna work! The hardcore BW fans wont watch because there is SC2 and the hardcore SC2 fans wont watch cause there is BW. Although everyone will get to see the awesomeness that is FLASH!!!!!!!!
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On April 11 2012 04:40 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 00:33 maybenexttime wrote:
TBH, once Korea switches to SC2, foreigners will have no chance to catch up anyway. Casual viewers will gradually lose interest because of the lack of players they can identify with, and sponsors will lose their marketing target they care so much about. The SC2 scene will slowly (over the span of two or so years) degenerate into what WC3 used to be in it's prime.
Unless, of course, Blizzard fixes the game. But it's unlikely.
You can already see the signs of people being tired of the Korean domination. Even many people registered on TL say they turn the stream off once there are only Koreans left in the tournament. I imagine it's more frequent among those not dedicated enough to make a TL account. It's only going to get worse once KeSPA teams switch. Actually, I think KeSPA switching over to SC2 might now mean as much domination as people expect, or at least not as much domination on a regular basis just due to scheduling. I remember reading a blog post from FXOBoss talking about how his team FXO would have much less time to send players abroad if they are part of an SC2 Proleague since their schedule would just become too busy to accommodate for the majority of foreign events. I suspect other teams, KeSPA or SC2, may face similar difficulties trying to send their players abroad. So perhaps this might result in many fewer Koreans playing in foreign tournaments, but the few that do go are more likely to win due to the great increase in competition and skill level being fostered in Korea post-switch.
Might *not* (ftfy). But yea, I think you may have a point. It really depends if the Koreans are loaded with such a full schedule that they may not find the time for MLG/IPL. That's wishful thinking but I think it may be partly true.
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