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On April 11 2012 14:06 phosphorylation wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? You have no idea what you are talking about. BW still has a relatively strong following (less than its glory years but still significant) in Korea while sc2 is followed by very few. When proleague finals was going, many online communities that had nothing to do with esports have been buzzing about the proleague, as if important sporting event (like olympics or wolrd cup) was on. Major esports websites were temporaily down due to traffic; "proleague" "lee young ho" and "kim taek yong" were the most searched words in prominent korean search engines (naver, daum). SC2 has NEVER generated anything close to this.
Also wasn't hoejja #5 search on korea for proleague finals ?
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Something like that. Another illustration is that when a VOD of a proleague finals game in posted in a non-esports community, it will be followed by a good number of comments. Generally, even if some people don't follow the proleague religiously, many will tune in for the finals: Broodwar truly permeates the young korean culture since 99 percent of young korean males have played the game sometime in their lives, even if they no longer play. So even for these people, these important/interesting games can be interest of them since they understand the language of Broodwar.
In contrast, sc2 has not penetrated the korean society at all; check the numbers of copies sold total in korea of respective games if you don't believe me. Therefore, excluding the few hardcore fans, nobody has a clue what's going on. Generally, if a SC2 vod is posted on a generic non-sc2 community (pretty rare), it will be met with very few comments and many of these would say something to the effect of: "Hmm, I never played this game, so I am not sure what's going on ..."
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51083 Posts
On April 11 2012 14:11 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:06 phosphorylation wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? You have no idea what you are talking about. BW still has a relatively strong following (less than its glory years but still significant) in Korea while sc2 is followed by very few. When proleague finals was going, many online communities that had nothing to do with esports have been buzzing about the proleague, as if important sporting event (like olympics or wolrd cup) was on. Major esports websites were temporaily down due to traffic; "proleague" "lee young ho" and "kim taek yong" were the most searched words in prominent korean search engines (naver, daum). SC2 has NEVER generated anything close to this. Also wasn't hoejja #5 search on korea for proleague finals ?
#4
the actual Finals was #7
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According to fomos article, Jung Myung hoon (Fantasy), Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) both hit number 1 at certain points.
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On April 11 2012 14:22 phosphorylation wrote:
According to fomos article, Jung Myung hoon (Fantasy), Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) both hit number 1 at certain points.
Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2? If Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2 (not masters), that means they have been practicing SC2 a lot.
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On April 11 2012 14:32 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:22 phosphorylation wrote:
According to fomos article, Jung Myung hoon (Fantasy), Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) both hit number 1 at certain points. Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2? If Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2 (not masters), that means they have been practicing SC2 a lot.
urgh, if I had my way with these forums, I would ban SC2-exclusive fans from the Broodwar forums.
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1019 Posts
On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas.
I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago .
BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners.
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On April 10 2012 10:32 PhoenixDark wrote:
So tired of elitist BW fans shitting on SC2 while refusing to honest or consistent. Guess what, SC1/BW wasn't particularly amazing or good in its first couple years either. SC2 is growing rapidly and will soon reach an impressive level of play
So tired of sc2 fans talking about the same old boring story that is give sc2 time to grow and it will probably have potential to big . So yeah sc2 had the opportunity to be big and in fact 10 years of development was taken to build sc2 and yet it isn't that good on the first release ?. I don't see it becoming impressive level of play any time soon not when I see groups of unit sticking to each other like super glue and blob vs blob is so apparent in every game .
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United States7639 Posts
On April 11 2012 14:32 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:22 phosphorylation wrote:
According to fomos article, Jung Myung hoon (Fantasy), Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) both hit number 1 at certain points. Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2? If Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2 (not masters), that means they have been practicing SC2 a lot.
...uh. No. They hit #1 in the search engines during their respective games in the finals. This was in response to the ignorant statement about BW having no viewership.
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On April 11 2012 14:32 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:22 phosphorylation wrote:
According to fomos article, Jung Myung hoon (Fantasy), Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) both hit number 1 at certain points. Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2? If Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2 (not masters), that means they have been practicing SC2 a lot.
Err. Cant really tell if trolling or just failed at reading comprehension
What phosphorylation wrote was that those players were number 1 searched in search engines. Not them becoming GM lol
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On April 11 2012 14:32 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:22 phosphorylation wrote:
According to fomos article, Jung Myung hoon (Fantasy), Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) both hit number 1 at certain points. Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2? If Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2 (not masters), that means they have been practicing SC2 a lot.
dude that is not what he was talking about...are you trolling?
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On April 11 2012 14:37 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:32 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On April 11 2012 14:22 phosphorylation wrote:
According to fomos article, Jung Myung hoon (Fantasy), Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) both hit number 1 at certain points. Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2? If Fantasy and Bisu hit #1 on GM ladder in SC2 (not masters), that means they have been practicing SC2 a lot. Err. Cant really tell if trolling or just failed at reading comprehension What phosphorylation wrote was that those players were number 1 searched in search engines. Not them becoming GM lol
Nah. He just came into the thread hoping and expecting to read that SC2 will take over the proleague completely in Korea, and just read my post about Fantasy being #1 without paying attention to anything else. Typical stuff....
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White_Horse that's why it's fruitless.
I don't even bother with that crap anymore.
If they don't want to educate themselves so be it. They can think whatever the heck they want.
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On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners.
The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow.
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On April 11 2012 15:09 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow.
yea but why would we post in the starcraft reddit? that place sucks and is 99% sc2 stuff
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On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners.
There's no argument that BW is bigger than SC2 in Korea. But at the same time, there must also be reasons why KesPa want to expand the current Proleague to SC2 even BW is more popular in Korea. And I think it's that because foreign SC2 viewers are more incline to pay for streams/products. It also might be BW's popularity does not generate revenue from sponsors as much as it used to be.
Like Milkis said a couple of pages before, the model that is used is Korea is heavily relying on sponsors, which is not really sustainable in the long run. The league existence should not solely rely on the sponsors (but this might not really apply to teams). And the business model in Korea makes it quite impossible to monetize the Korean audiences (i.e. ticket fee for watching the game lives). So I think that it is highly probable that KesPa wants to reduce the reliance on sponsors by monetizing the foreign viewers instead. But because BW is pretty much not popular in foreign scene anymore, they have to somehow incorporate (or switch to in the worse case) SC2 to Proleague.
And I think SC2 foreign fans is really willing to pay to watch the game. For example, MLG experimented with the Pay per View only system. The price is quite steep ($20 for three days worth of content) but they stated that the "result exceed their expectation". That means that people are willing to pay more than they thought. IPL 4 at Las Vegas also could be considered as a successful event in terms of selling the spectator pass, as the VIP passes ($175) were sold out and from the shot of the live audience, a significant number of normal spectator pass ($25) were sold. Considering that stream's prices are generally lower (or the same but with more amount of contents), there is a potential market that KesPa can capitalize that they could not with the Korean audience.
So the big question right now in Korea is that whether they can translate popularity of BW into revenue or not. If they cannot do with Korean viewers, then they might have to cater more to foreign viewers, which in turn means they need to incorporate SC2 and LoL into the system.
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On April 11 2012 15:09 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow.
I upvote every single BW thread on r/starcraft for publicity; but a fair bit of people have downvoted those posts just because it's Brood War; not to mention that a big segment of the BW community detests Reddit because of the pitchfork mentality of most people, not to mention that most of the BM people that got banned from TL are there and say things about the mods that make me want to facepalm.
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On April 11 2012 15:09 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow.
The games were so good, many people were not even posting in the LR thread on TL. I attended the finals, and didn't even take a single picture during Fantasy vs Flash because I was too focused on the game and couldn't think of anything else.
Thinking people would waste time on Reddit is really far-fetched.
I love the Korean scene, and seeing that the event was so popular that esports websites went down due to traffic and players names taking most of the top 10 spots in search engine is more than enough. I see many sc2 players here who started to BW out of curiosity and found it awesome.
I'm not going to use the Blizzard strategy that consists of shoving a game to people's throats. SC2 fans already have everything they need to start watching BW. If they don't even try to watch BW, it's because they don't want to, and spamming upvotes on Reddit will not change anything to them.
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This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy.
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On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy.
The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ...
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EPT
