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On April 11 2012 15:09 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow.
Why the hell would you use reddit popularity as a yardstick for anything. Anyone with a brain knows that place (99% of it) is full of pseudo intelligent halfwits. I rather quit TL than watch it become r/starcraft.
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On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ...
well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^
ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next.
What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything.
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On April 11 2012 16:15 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ... well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^ ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next. What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything.
Who says esport 2012 is indie ? Bw and Cs was the original esport before all this imposter who comes up saying "for esports" and so . I don't remember people using the word for esport this and that we just play the game enjoy it . If money is everything than probably it's good to leave esport once and for all back than bw professionals have to live on instant noodles and just passion so they can live their dream as a pro gamer .
I dislike the idea that every new games that comes out with flashy graphics over throws oldies that has stand the test of time and if everyone is going to follow the trend of "okay new game comes out , ditch old game and follow the hype " than you can kiss e-sport goodbye because it's nothing but a money milking machine. No passion and no love for the game all are just there to milk the damn scene.
Now days living condition have improve for pro gamers they don't need to suffer under terrible conditions besides playing the game 14 hours in korea .Let's just say that the zealot for the protoss is right with him saying "my life for bw " always.
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On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy.
Nope. Not Liquid'Jaedong. He has stated many times that he doesn't care about how much he gets payed as long as he can play the game that he loves for a living.
At least I hope he wouldn't sell out... He didn't when SKT tried to buy him from OZ (the rumour said it was SKT that tried to buy him).
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On April 11 2012 16:32 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:15 USvBleakill wrote:On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ... well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^ ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next. What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything. Who says esport 2012 is indie ? Bw and Cs was the original esport before all this imposter who comes up saying "for esports" and so . I don't remember people using the word for esport this and that we just play the game enjoy it . If money is everything than probably it's good to leave esport once and for all back than bw professionals have to live on instant noodles and just passion so they can live their dream as a pro gamer . I dislike the idea that every new games that comes out with flashy graphics over throws oldies that has stand the test of time and if everyone is going to follow the trend of "okay new game comes out , ditch old game and follow the hype " than you can kiss e-sport goodbye because it's nothing but a money milking machine. No passion and no love for the game all are just there to milk the damn scene. Now days living condition have improve for pro gamers they don't need to suffer under terrible conditions besides playing the game 14 hours in korea .Let's just say that the zealot for the protoss is right with him saying "my life for bw " always.
I really doubt that alott of people want BW dead, and noone will ever take the game away from you. You can play it for the rest of your lives!
The thing I think he means by $ -> everything is that BW doesnt generate enough money to withhold its position as a major competitive "sports"... A sport that gives salaries to its players, and hires coaches, cooks etc.
And without salaries, coaches etc. you want have the same professionalism.
Because of the high interest in SC2 around the world (Not so much in korea ofc.) it has started to make alott of money, money that even the best BW players at a time will want to have a piece of(that is ofc if they want to switch too SC2).
Its not that many people that says SC2 is a better game then BW, its mostly that its more user friendly for new watchers/players.
Man, I cant even install BW on my new computer because its 2 old...
So, with most of us knowing about these facts, and knowing that KeSPA is transitioning, we just hope that both the best players and the majority of the crowd follows, because we want this to grow... Its not about disrespecting BW and its fans.
Sorry for my english, its not the best, but I hope you can understand my points QQ
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As a SC2 player/viewer (ah ah please put that gun down pleasee aaaa  ) i really hope that BW will life forever because its a great game but i think there could be the day that (korean) organizations say "we can make more money with a different game" maybe it´s sc2 maybe its LoL (by the way i have no idea of the DotA/LoL/HoN stuff, is any country or region dominant like Koreans in sc?).
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On April 11 2012 17:18 USvBleakill wrote:As a SC2 player/viewer (ah ah please put that gun down pleasee aaaa ) i really hope that BW will life forever because its a great game but i think there could be the day that (korean) organizations say "we can make more money with a different game" maybe it´s sc2 maybe its LoL (by the way i have no idea of the DotA/LoL/HoN stuff, is any country or region dominant like Koreans in sc?).
I think DotA/LOL/HoN got a rather good spread around the wolrd, with maybe Dota extra popular in China, and LOL a bit more popular in Korea?
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51597 Posts
On April 11 2012 16:56 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. Nope. Not Liquid'Jaedong. He has stated many times that he doesn't care about how much he gets payed as long as he can play the game that he loves for a living. At least I hope he wouldn't sell out... He didn't when SKT tried to buy him from OZ (the rumour said it was SKT that tried to buy him).
it was because there was a gentleman's agreement between the teams that skt could not be in the running for jaedong, because if skt got jaedong, skt would just win every game in proleague.
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United Kingdom1711 Posts
On April 11 2012 16:57 Atoissen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:32 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 16:15 USvBleakill wrote:On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ... well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^ ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next. What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything. Who says esport 2012 is indie ? Bw and Cs was the original esport before all this imposter who comes up saying "for esports" and so . I don't remember people using the word for esport this and that we just play the game enjoy it . If money is everything than probably it's good to leave esport once and for all back than bw professionals have to live on instant noodles and just passion so they can live their dream as a pro gamer . I dislike the idea that every new games that comes out with flashy graphics over throws oldies that has stand the test of time and if everyone is going to follow the trend of "okay new game comes out , ditch old game and follow the hype " than you can kiss e-sport goodbye because it's nothing but a money milking machine. No passion and no love for the game all are just there to milk the damn scene. Now days living condition have improve for pro gamers they don't need to suffer under terrible conditions besides playing the game 14 hours in korea .Let's just say that the zealot for the protoss is right with him saying "my life for bw " always. I really doubt that alott of people want BW dead, and noone will ever take the game away from you. You can play it for the rest of your lives! The thing I think he means by $ -> everything is that BW doesnt generate enough money to withhold its position as a major competitive "sports"... A sport that gives salaries to its players, and hires coaches, cooks etc. And without salaries, coaches etc. you want have the same professionalism. Because of the high interest in SC2 around the world (Not so much in korea ofc.) it has started to make alott of money, money that even the best BW players at a time will want to have a piece of(that is ofc if they want to switch too SC2). Its not that many people that says SC2 is a better game then BW, its mostly that its more user friendly for new watchers/players. Man, I cant even install BW on my new computer because its 2 old... So, with most of us knowing about these facts, and knowing that KeSPA is transitioning, we just hope that both the best players and the majority of the crowd follows, because we want this to grow... Its not about disrespecting BW and its fans. Sorry for my english, its not the best, but I hope you can understand my points QQ
I still don't see the monetary incentive for a switch. It's no secret that 99% of SC2 pros make absolute peanuts. I mean, 20-30,000 $ IN TOTAL so far. Which pretty much equates to lower than minimum wage (in this country at least). A few have made some good money, but still it's important to note that they haven't made particularly great money. For example, 250,000 for some of the most valuable days of your life, is really not enough to set you up in the long run. The whole switching for money thing? I REALLY don't buy it. Prize winnings as a primary source of income is a terrible risk when the very absolute best you can expect to earn for a very limited time, is equal to just 2 years of a high middle-class salary (again, in Britain at least).
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On April 11 2012 15:24 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:09 Ribbon wrote:On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow. yea but why would we post in the starcraft reddit? that place sucks and is 99% sc2 stuff
.....So, you shouldn't post on r/starcraft because.....you don't post in r/starcraft?
It's not like BW is chased out, and every big BW thread ends up winning a convert or three.
On April 11 2012 15:31 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. There's no argument that BW is bigger than SC2 in Korea. But at the same time, there must also be reasons why KesPa want to expand the current Proleague to SC2 even BW is more popular in Korea. And I think it's that because foreign SC2 viewers are more incline to pay for streams/products. It also might be BW's popularity does not generate revenue from sponsors as much as it used to be. Like Milkis said a couple of pages before, the model that is used is Korea is heavily relying on sponsors, which is not really sustainable in the long run. The league existence should not solely rely on the sponsors (but this might not really apply to teams). And the business model in Korea makes it quite impossible to monetize the Korean audiences (i.e. ticket fee for watching the game lives). So I think that it is highly probable that KesPa wants to reduce the reliance on sponsors by monetizing the foreign viewers instead. But because BW is pretty much not popular in foreign scene anymore, they have to somehow incorporate (or switch to in the worse case) SC2 to Proleague. And I think SC2 foreign fans is really willing to pay to watch the game. For example, MLG experimented with the Pay per View only system. The price is quite steep ($20 for three days worth of content) but they stated that the "result exceed their expectation". That means that people are willing to pay more than they thought. IPL 4 at Las Vegas also could be considered as a successful event in terms of selling the spectator pass, as the VIP passes ($175) were sold out and from the shot of the live audience, a significant number of normal spectator pass ($25) were sold. Considering that stream's prices are generally lower (or the same but with more amount of contents), there is a potential market that KesPa can capitalize that they could not with the Korean audience. So the big question right now in Korea is that whether they can translate popularity of BW into revenue or not. If they cannot do with Korean viewers, then they might have to cater more to foreign viewers, which in turn means they need to incorporate SC2 and LoL into the system.
As a non-profit, Kespa doesn't have to abandon BW for not being profitable anymore. Adding SC2 to Proleague has an almost negligible cost because all the expensive stuff is things they were doing anyway, so the money that foreign fans bring in would be pure gravy, that they could put into another game, like BW (or counterstrike or LoL or whatever, but BW is special in many ways historically). While there are no doubt a lot of Korean fans who don't want to watch SC2, I doubt there are that many who would drop BW due to its proximity. That's more of a hardcore fan thing (and, Korean BW fans don't have a huge Korean community going "LOL BW IS DEAD U GAIZ" and fostering bad vibes). It's a lot of, basically, free money that can be used for other things. Like BW.
On April 11 2012 15:40 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:09 Ribbon wrote:On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow. The games were so good, many people were not even posting in the LR thread on TL.
...What? You mean the LR thread with 7,000+ posts, which got to 300 pages before the game ended?
I love the Korean scene, and seeing that the event was so popular that esports websites went down due to traffic and players names taking most of the top 10 spots in search engine is more than enough. I see many sc2 players here who started to BW out of curiosity and found it awesome.
Because BW players did something to make BW known to them (or, I guess, because of the "BW players are going to crush everyone when they switch!" hype).
I'm not going to use the Blizzard strategy that consists of shoving a game to people's throats. SC2 fans already have everything they need to start watching BW. If they don't even try to watch BW, it's because they don't want to, and spamming upvotes on Reddit will not change anything to them.
There are a lot of SC2 fans who legitimately are not aware there's a BW pro scene. And hyping the game isn't the "Blizzard" strategy, it's the SC2 fan strategy. Blizzard didn't really push the game much at all, in the foreign scene (until recently). It grew because the SC2 scene rivals Bronies and Ron Paul for crazypeople hype.
On April 11 2012 15:58 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:09 Ribbon wrote:On April 11 2012 14:34 white_horse wrote:On April 11 2012 14:00 Ideas wrote:On April 11 2012 13:57 mtn wrote:On April 11 2012 13:49 phosphorylation wrote:
Korean BW watchers heavily outnumber the Korean SC2 viewers, even among younger population.. yet the sponsors would rather support sc2. I blame the sponsors for this foolishness rather than anything else.
If proleague drops BW, it is safe to say I will probably never watch it again. You know that BW has almost no viewership numbers right now right? honestly i've seen so many un-cited claims about viewership numbers for bw/sc2 the last few months that i have no idea what to believe. Until we get some actual, reliable sources, the only thing we can go by is live attendance estimates based on VODs. And from what I understand, BW still has a lot more audience at live events than GOM stuff, correct? And by that I mean inside Korea, not blizzcon or stuff in Las Vegas. I think its just total misunderstanding from the perspective of the SC2 community when it comes to the situation of BW inside korea. To the SC2 community, BW is basically dead to them because nobody plays BW in the foreign communities and it is all about SC2 - so you get the perception that SC2 is booming while BW has disappeared long ago . BW is still relatively popular korea. People from the SC2 community need to understand this before they make stupid comments like the one a few quotes above. BW permeates the korean population group of 10-something and 20-something year olds, reaching a mainstream level that SC2 does not. BW is still played in korean internet cafes and the general awareness of BW is much higher in the korean community compared to the foreign communities that are big about SC2. There are many people who still enjoy watching proleague. And the SC2 fans apparantly do not know any of this, which is why I think you keep getting comments like "BW is dead" or "BW has zero popularity". Yeah, these comments are true - but only to the foreigners. The BW fans that do exist in the foreign scene are also really bad at advertising themselves. The SPL proleague thread on Reddit has 250 upvotes. That's actually not bad, but with several thousand people on each of the streams, it could've easily been front-paged on Reddit, which would've been pretty sick. Considering that every time BW gets a big push somewhere outside of the BW forums, we get a few fans, I'm baffled that the community doesn't seem to want to grow. Why the hell would you use reddit popularity as a yardstick for anything. Anyone with a brain knows that place (99% of it) is full of pseudo intelligent halfwits. I rather quit TL than watch it become r/starcraft.
Because there are a lot of people, and that's definitionally what popularity is? And it's a scene with a positive disposition to BW but for whatever reason aren't watching it more?
I had thought for a while there were people in the BW community who would rather feel superior with a dead game than feel common with a live one, though. Thanks for that confirmation.
On April 11 2012 19:14 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:57 Atoissen wrote:On April 11 2012 16:32 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 16:15 USvBleakill wrote:On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ... well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^ ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next. What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything. Who says esport 2012 is indie ? Bw and Cs was the original esport before all this imposter who comes up saying "for esports" and so . I don't remember people using the word for esport this and that we just play the game enjoy it . If money is everything than probably it's good to leave esport once and for all back than bw professionals have to live on instant noodles and just passion so they can live their dream as a pro gamer . I dislike the idea that every new games that comes out with flashy graphics over throws oldies that has stand the test of time and if everyone is going to follow the trend of "okay new game comes out , ditch old game and follow the hype " than you can kiss e-sport goodbye because it's nothing but a money milking machine. No passion and no love for the game all are just there to milk the damn scene. Now days living condition have improve for pro gamers they don't need to suffer under terrible conditions besides playing the game 14 hours in korea .Let's just say that the zealot for the protoss is right with him saying "my life for bw " always. I really doubt that alott of people want BW dead, and noone will ever take the game away from you. You can play it for the rest of your lives! The thing I think he means by $ -> everything is that BW doesnt generate enough money to withhold its position as a major competitive "sports"... A sport that gives salaries to its players, and hires coaches, cooks etc. And without salaries, coaches etc. you want have the same professionalism. Because of the high interest in SC2 around the world (Not so much in korea ofc.) it has started to make alott of money, money that even the best BW players at a time will want to have a piece of(that is ofc if they want to switch too SC2). Its not that many people that says SC2 is a better game then BW, its mostly that its more user friendly for new watchers/players. Man, I cant even install BW on my new computer because its 2 old... So, with most of us knowing about these facts, and knowing that KeSPA is transitioning, we just hope that both the best players and the majority of the crowd follows, because we want this to grow... Its not about disrespecting BW and its fans. Sorry for my english, its not the best, but I hope you can understand my points QQ I still don't see the monetary incentive for a switch. It's no secret that 99% of SC2 pros make absolute peanuts. I mean, 20-30,000 $ IN TOTAL so far. Which pretty much equates to lower than minimum wage (in this country at least). A few have made some good money, but still it's important to note that they haven't made particularly great money. For example, 250,000 for some of the most valuable days of your life, is really not enough to set you up in the long run. The whole switching for money thing? I REALLY don't buy it. Prize winnings as a primary source of income is a terrible risk when the very absolute best you can expect to earn for a very limited time, is equal to just 2 years of a high middle-class salary (again, in Britain at least).
According to FXOBoss, the average foreign SC2 player makes ~$400 a year. The guys at the tippy-top make 6 figures, but none make Flash money. I think EG players make decent salaries, with Huk being offered a "life-changing" amount to switch from Liquid, but most SC2 players are completely broke.
On the other hand, so are most BW players. Not everyone is TLBS.
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On April 11 2012 19:14 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:57 Atoissen wrote:On April 11 2012 16:32 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 16:15 USvBleakill wrote:On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ... well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^ ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next. What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything. Who says esport 2012 is indie ? Bw and Cs was the original esport before all this imposter who comes up saying "for esports" and so . I don't remember people using the word for esport this and that we just play the game enjoy it . If money is everything than probably it's good to leave esport once and for all back than bw professionals have to live on instant noodles and just passion so they can live their dream as a pro gamer . I dislike the idea that every new games that comes out with flashy graphics over throws oldies that has stand the test of time and if everyone is going to follow the trend of "okay new game comes out , ditch old game and follow the hype " than you can kiss e-sport goodbye because it's nothing but a money milking machine. No passion and no love for the game all are just there to milk the damn scene. Now days living condition have improve for pro gamers they don't need to suffer under terrible conditions besides playing the game 14 hours in korea .Let's just say that the zealot for the protoss is right with him saying "my life for bw " always. I really doubt that alott of people want BW dead, and noone will ever take the game away from you. You can play it for the rest of your lives! The thing I think he means by $ -> everything is that BW doesnt generate enough money to withhold its position as a major competitive "sports"... A sport that gives salaries to its players, and hires coaches, cooks etc. And without salaries, coaches etc. you want have the same professionalism. Because of the high interest in SC2 around the world (Not so much in korea ofc.) it has started to make alott of money, money that even the best BW players at a time will want to have a piece of(that is ofc if they want to switch too SC2). Its not that many people that says SC2 is a better game then BW, its mostly that its more user friendly for new watchers/players. Man, I cant even install BW on my new computer because its 2 old... So, with most of us knowing about these facts, and knowing that KeSPA is transitioning, we just hope that both the best players and the majority of the crowd follows, because we want this to grow... Its not about disrespecting BW and its fans. Sorry for my english, its not the best, but I hope you can understand my points QQ I still don't see the monetary incentive for a switch. It's no secret that 99% of SC2 pros make absolute peanuts. I mean, 20-30,000 $ IN TOTAL so far. Which pretty much equates to lower than minimum wage (in this country at least). A few have made some good money, but still it's important to note that they haven't made particularly great money. For example, 250,000 for some of the most valuable days of your life, is really not enough to set you up in the long run. The whole switching for money thing? I REALLY don't buy it. Prize winnings as a primary source of income is a terrible risk when the very absolute best you can expect to earn for a very limited time, is equal to just 2 years of a high middle-class salary (again, in Britain at least).
$250k of discretionary income for a teenager with no living costs is huge. It would take the average person a long, long time to generate that sort of disposable cash. Add a salary on top of that and the perks of being flown all over the world and having a global fan base and, for the elite few at least, it's a pretty good lifestyle.
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On April 11 2012 21:12 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 19:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 16:57 Atoissen wrote:On April 11 2012 16:32 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 16:15 USvBleakill wrote:On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ... well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^ ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next. What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything. Who says esport 2012 is indie ? Bw and Cs was the original esport before all this imposter who comes up saying "for esports" and so . I don't remember people using the word for esport this and that we just play the game enjoy it . If money is everything than probably it's good to leave esport once and for all back than bw professionals have to live on instant noodles and just passion so they can live their dream as a pro gamer . I dislike the idea that every new games that comes out with flashy graphics over throws oldies that has stand the test of time and if everyone is going to follow the trend of "okay new game comes out , ditch old game and follow the hype " than you can kiss e-sport goodbye because it's nothing but a money milking machine. No passion and no love for the game all are just there to milk the damn scene. Now days living condition have improve for pro gamers they don't need to suffer under terrible conditions besides playing the game 14 hours in korea .Let's just say that the zealot for the protoss is right with him saying "my life for bw " always. I really doubt that alott of people want BW dead, and noone will ever take the game away from you. You can play it for the rest of your lives! The thing I think he means by $ -> everything is that BW doesnt generate enough money to withhold its position as a major competitive "sports"... A sport that gives salaries to its players, and hires coaches, cooks etc. And without salaries, coaches etc. you want have the same professionalism. Because of the high interest in SC2 around the world (Not so much in korea ofc.) it has started to make alott of money, money that even the best BW players at a time will want to have a piece of(that is ofc if they want to switch too SC2). Its not that many people that says SC2 is a better game then BW, its mostly that its more user friendly for new watchers/players. Man, I cant even install BW on my new computer because its 2 old... So, with most of us knowing about these facts, and knowing that KeSPA is transitioning, we just hope that both the best players and the majority of the crowd follows, because we want this to grow... Its not about disrespecting BW and its fans. Sorry for my english, its not the best, but I hope you can understand my points QQ I still don't see the monetary incentive for a switch. It's no secret that 99% of SC2 pros make absolute peanuts. I mean, 20-30,000 $ IN TOTAL so far. Which pretty much equates to lower than minimum wage (in this country at least). A few have made some good money, but still it's important to note that they haven't made particularly great money. For example, 250,000 for some of the most valuable days of your life, is really not enough to set you up in the long run. The whole switching for money thing? I REALLY don't buy it. Prize winnings as a primary source of income is a terrible risk when the very absolute best you can expect to earn for a very limited time, is equal to just 2 years of a high middle-class salary (again, in Britain at least). $250k of discretionary income for a teenager with no living costs is huge. It would take the average person a long, long time to generate that sort of disposable cash. Add a salary on top of that and the perks of being flown all over the world and having a global fan base and, for the elite few at least, it's a pretty good lifestyle.
Except you do it at the expense of everything else. If you want to go to college like QXC Then you basically give up being the best or making that kind of money.
250,000 sounds like a lot of money, but if you go to college and get a technical degree you can expect to make 50k to 60k every year...forever.
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so anyone has any idea when the season 2 is going to start ?
whatever the format will be ?
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On April 11 2012 16:56 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. Nope. Not Liquid'Jaedong. He has stated many times that he doesn't care about how much he gets payed as long as he can play the game that he loves for a living. At least I hope he wouldn't sell out... He didn't when SKT tried to buy him from OZ (the rumour said it was SKT that tried to buy him).
And yet we know for a fact that Jaedong is playing SC2 and enjoying it.
Some food for thought.
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On April 11 2012 21:55 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 16:56 Elroi wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. Nope. Not Liquid'Jaedong. He has stated many times that he doesn't care about how much he gets payed as long as he can play the game that he loves for a living. At least I hope he wouldn't sell out... He didn't when SKT tried to buy him from OZ (the rumour said it was SKT that tried to buy him). And yet we know for a fact that Jaedong is playing SC2 and enjoying it. Some food for thought.
as it was already discussed earlier the only thing we know is that he plays. there is nothing about jd having fun playing sc2...
the only thing we know is that the coach said "sc2 is a fun game"
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On April 11 2012 21:47 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 21:12 cuppatea wrote:On April 11 2012 19:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 16:57 Atoissen wrote:On April 11 2012 16:32 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 16:15 USvBleakill wrote:On April 11 2012 15:57 Sawamura wrote:On April 11 2012 15:53 USvBleakill wrote:
This have nothing to do with "BW is so much better, SC2 is so mainstream, the elephant in the room, LoL is way better than starcraft, DotA is better than Jesus blablabla..."
It all comes down to money, nothing else.
If RedBull wakes up next morning and say "well formula one sucks we give TeamLiquid 50 billions a year to build a SC2 team", then we will see LiquidBisu, LiquidFlash and LiquidJaedong within a week.
It´s that easy. The problem is RedBull will use that 50 billion to spent on other thing that will help the business in a long run than sponsor a sc2 team with that money . Sorry but if you think sc2 is really that huge globally you got to be delusional . It isn't even at a bw spectator level where old grandma and uncle bring their grandchildren to watch their games . If sc2 reaches that kind of spectator level than it's possible that a 10million contract will be probable but not 50 billion ... well.. äh.. well maybe you have missed the point of my post a little bit^^ ESport 2012 is not indie, it´s not nerd, it´s not crazy kids in dark rooms with no girlfriend. It´s a business. And in a business the guy with the most money will call what happens next. What i wanted to say is that if someone come with more money then the others, we will see Flash as the next Angry Birds bonjwa. 98% of this thread is going in the BW < = > SC2 direction what is totally irrelevant because $ > everything. Who says esport 2012 is indie ? Bw and Cs was the original esport before all this imposter who comes up saying "for esports" and so . I don't remember people using the word for esport this and that we just play the game enjoy it . If money is everything than probably it's good to leave esport once and for all back than bw professionals have to live on instant noodles and just passion so they can live their dream as a pro gamer . I dislike the idea that every new games that comes out with flashy graphics over throws oldies that has stand the test of time and if everyone is going to follow the trend of "okay new game comes out , ditch old game and follow the hype " than you can kiss e-sport goodbye because it's nothing but a money milking machine. No passion and no love for the game all are just there to milk the damn scene. Now days living condition have improve for pro gamers they don't need to suffer under terrible conditions besides playing the game 14 hours in korea .Let's just say that the zealot for the protoss is right with him saying "my life for bw " always. I really doubt that alott of people want BW dead, and noone will ever take the game away from you. You can play it for the rest of your lives! The thing I think he means by $ -> everything is that BW doesnt generate enough money to withhold its position as a major competitive "sports"... A sport that gives salaries to its players, and hires coaches, cooks etc. And without salaries, coaches etc. you want have the same professionalism. Because of the high interest in SC2 around the world (Not so much in korea ofc.) it has started to make alott of money, money that even the best BW players at a time will want to have a piece of(that is ofc if they want to switch too SC2). Its not that many people that says SC2 is a better game then BW, its mostly that its more user friendly for new watchers/players. Man, I cant even install BW on my new computer because its 2 old... So, with most of us knowing about these facts, and knowing that KeSPA is transitioning, we just hope that both the best players and the majority of the crowd follows, because we want this to grow... Its not about disrespecting BW and its fans. Sorry for my english, its not the best, but I hope you can understand my points QQ I still don't see the monetary incentive for a switch. It's no secret that 99% of SC2 pros make absolute peanuts. I mean, 20-30,000 $ IN TOTAL so far. Which pretty much equates to lower than minimum wage (in this country at least). A few have made some good money, but still it's important to note that they haven't made particularly great money. For example, 250,000 for some of the most valuable days of your life, is really not enough to set you up in the long run. The whole switching for money thing? I REALLY don't buy it. Prize winnings as a primary source of income is a terrible risk when the very absolute best you can expect to earn for a very limited time, is equal to just 2 years of a high middle-class salary (again, in Britain at least). $250k of discretionary income for a teenager with no living costs is huge. It would take the average person a long, long time to generate that sort of disposable cash. Add a salary on top of that and the perks of being flown all over the world and having a global fan base and, for the elite few at least, it's a pretty good lifestyle. Except you do it at the expense of everything else. If you want to go to college like QXC Then you basically give up being the best or making that kind of money. 250,000 sounds like a lot of money, but if you go to college and get a technical degree you can expect to make 50k to 60k every year...forever.
$250,000 is a lot when you have virtually $0 living expenses. Their housing, food, transportation, etc. is all paid for. Yeah, you can go to college and make $50,000 a year, but most people graduate with a butt load of debt to pay off, and have $30,000+ a year in living expenses. Big difference between total income and disposable income.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50978 Posts
On April 11 2012 21:55 Sinedd wrote:
so anyone has any idea when the season 2 is going to start ?
whatever the format will be ?
Considering OSL is occupying the PL time slot, a while.
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People throwing around the 250k earnings, you do realize there is such a thing as taxes? You lose 40-50% immediately.
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On April 11 2012 22:47 architecture wrote:
People throwing around the 250k earnings, you do realize there is such a thing as taxes? You lose 40-50% immediately.
No, I'm completely unaware of taxes. But still, taxes don't change the story. So you're making $125k and the person coming out of college is making 25-30k a year. The proportions are still the same.
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EPT
