EPTMy apologies - I didn't thoroughly read your post before responding to Mordanis's post which was directed at me, and I guess I just assumed you'd accuse him back lol.
So, what are your thoughts on hegeo then?
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
My apologies - I didn't thoroughly read your post before responding to Mordanis's post which was directed at me, and I guess I just assumed you'd accuse him back lol. So, what are your thoughts on hegeo then? | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler + I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote: sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. As pressure goes, that's pretty weaksauce. You'll have to do more, Miltonkram, if you expect us to believe you are working in the town's best interest. If you filter stays as it is now as we approach vote time tomorrow, I'll be leaning strongly towards you. ShiaoPi, hegeo has made a case against you and I want to add to it. I called you out, and you said this: On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote: Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? Discrediting your accuser instead of addressing the accusation smacks of fear. What's with the knee-jerk? You could have easily just said something like 'my small filter will be a short lived problem as I plan to contribute more soon.' What's more, I even put the spotlight on the two of us after our exchange, and before leaving the thread for a few hours: On May 23 2012 00:45 s0Lstice wrote: Just a quick note (I'm on my phone), but days are 48 hours. Shiaopi, my filter is small as well, yes. The onus is on both of us to contribute. ...and your contributions since then are what? Mainly defense, and a half-baked (see:one game) meta argument on Mufaa, where you yourself admit that you may be biased. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
s0Lstice Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton. ##FOS: Miltonkram Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts: I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent. I will.. ## unFOS: Miltonkram ...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes. ##FOS: s0Lstice | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On May 23 2012 06:39 ShiaoPi wrote: I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler + I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read. Admittedly, he isn't the perfect case for scum, but my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie. Also, the case against Milton is pretty weak (even though he can't match what malt can do to justify God's ways to man). Solstice seems inactive, but I don't think there's been a very solid case on him. I can't even think of anyone else who has a group of people actively being suspicious of. Honestly, they're all sort of decent candidates for a D1 lynch, but I don't see nearly as much of an argument for the others as for Hegeo. Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people. This may go back to my being burned by protecting mafia, but I think it will be best for everyone to post their own thoughts on matters rather than explicitly rebuting an accusation. | ||
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hegeo
Germany194 Posts
I will answer as short as I can, but I also want to show you what I think of Mordanis' "claims" If anyone wants me to clarify my opinion on anything, please tell me (maybe Mordanis and release, could you spoiler longer posts, I think it would be easier for others to follow the discussion). I don't want this to be solely a direct answer to Mordanis. I would like everybody else to get an opinion on my agenda, therefore I added some questions. + Show Spoiler + Everything spoilered to make it easier for all to read and re-read. I repeat: WALLS OF TEXT ARE BAD FOR TOWN, WHEN UNSTRUCTURED. I saw at least 3 people follow my example. So I'm not the only one. Mordanis calls me out on posting directly after Miltonkram + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote: First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation. I don't get it: You say release was too agressive but after he stopped there was a "community of trust" till now that you (two) come back? Later on in your post you state "Do you see the passive aggressiveness?" when talking about me. I didn't trust anybody in the last hours, and tried to point out inconsistencies, without ever blatantly calling somebody scum for it. Mordanis calls me out on posting as a "knee-jerk reaction" directly after Miltonkrams first post + Show Spoiler + Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. This is basically what you said before (yes, you stated it). You didn't add anything (NO additional content). I answered you directly after you asked me why I posted and explained what happened. Do others think a knee-jerk reaction is the "most obvious explanation"? And if this is of such importance for you, Mordanis: + Show Spoiler + It was 9:16AM when I posted my first thoughts on a post from 8:50AM (by release, which is 15:50 KST here), and I loaded the thread no later than 15:41 (I can't remember seeing his addenda). Since I was rereading what he said, highlighted stuff etc. in his post and since it was my first post, I was really careful with my wording. I don't see a problem there, maybe you still see it. If this is everything you have there, ok. Mordanis again on my first post and my questions to him + Show Spoiler + This is right after I first state my misgivings about his timing. Do you see the passive aggressiveness? He defends himself in a strange way. He says virtually nothing save a small excuse for the the timing of his post. I hope I answered you question already. You still just repeat what you said before. And I see no passive aggressiveness here (not in my explanation for the time of my post, maybe you meant my first statement that you mention later?). And I want to ask the others: What do other think about Mondalis' judgement here? First statement is the most absurdly WIFOM I've ever seen. It was hilariously passive aggressive. Second statement was just agreement with someone else (which he stated), and the third was basically just an excuse. I have a hard time reconciling his behavior with being town. Yep, my first statement was really not that great, it was bad to be honest with you, But still, it made you answer, and Golden already answered it before in a less condescending way. And all that while you say you saw "too much House" to still believe in coincidences I might add. On my post with thoughts about releases way of playing + Show Spoiler + Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. He praises Sciberia for "bringing the heat", and then spends the rest of the post explaining why Release's play has been suboptimal. I didn't praise, I was happy. At that time, there was not to much cross-analysis between posts, and since I realized that I wasn't the first one to start (I refreshed the thread before I posted, yeah!) I wanted to mention it. On release: I stated my opinion on, as I put it "why I think you're not always helping town with [your style of posting]". I don't see what's wrong with that. So why didn't you tell me what you thought about my post regarding ShiaoPi, and what I had to say about Sciberbias analysis on Miltonkram? On me, and that I "outright chasten[..] Release" + Show Spoiler + Sorry, did I quoted you wrong here? You said: On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote: Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. I just wanted to point out that I didn't want to repeat what you said. Do others think I quoted him wrong and do you think I did it in a dismissive way, hence "chastening" release? Mordanis says I post "shallow analysis", calls my activities "suspicious" again + Show Spoiler + I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish. He has only posted shallow analysis in which he deflects attention from himself. He hasn't really helped at all in the scum-hunt. He has very suspicious activities. So what new points did you bring up? That one of my points "against" you was ridiculous, which I admitted? That you don't like the way I post? I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day.That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful. You repeat what you say in the very beginning. I still don't understand, why you call me scum that "chastenes Release" is "passive aggressive", nevertheless interpret the current situation "too trusting". I don't "trust" you to be town, still, I don't think you're scum either (although there are many points in the post I'm answering trying to answer that look as if you wanted to persuade other players without real evidence, I leave that to the other players). ----------- But really Mordanis, what kind of "culture of discussion" is it, when you just say, asked by Sciberbia what you think of my posts on e.g. ShiaoPi : On May 23 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote: I was actually ignoring them on purpose. /Out of game: + Show Spoiler + This is just sad. So why are you playing then? Call my posts bad or whatever, but please read them. /Back in game ----------- What I tried to do in the last 13 hours: + Show Spoiler + 1. Post original content as good as I can, analyses (good or bad, everyone can judge themselves) 2. Try to make my posts as transparent as possible (proposing tl;drs for easier reference, spoilered fluff, mentioned when I just repeated stuff) 3. Tried to NOT do this "'#FOS, XY is scum, I'm watching you" stuff since I don' feel the need to show everybody I'm having thoughts on things. 4. Tried to make sure that I ask people on their opinion/pressured them and was interested in THEIR opinion and explanations why they posted what they did when I wasn't sure. 5. Asked other people on wether they agree with me or not to promote discussions 6. Tried to cooperate with others that seemed interested in discussing (namely Sciberbia in the last hours) 7. Was the first to say that although scum reads should be actively discussed, we shouldn't mention strong town reads to make sure mafia can't profit. Now I will try to quickly answer release (then I have to sleep for at least 8 hours. Don't expect me to post or whatever.) | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 23 2012 06:40 s0Lstice wrote: ---snipped---- ShiaoPi, hegeo has made a case against you and I want to add to it. I called you out, and you said this: Discrediting your accuser instead of addressing the accusation smacks of fear. What's with the knee-jerk? You could have easily just said something like 'my small filter will be a short lived problem as I plan to contribute more soon.' What's more, I even put the spotlight on the two of us after our exchange, and before leaving the thread for a few hours: ...and your contributions since then are what? Mainly defense, and a half-baked (see:one game) meta argument on Mufaa, where you yourself admit that you may be biased. Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo: + Show Spoiler + I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it. As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa). Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Milton, in response to your suspicions of me: I based it on what amounted to a reading comprehension fail. As it seems to be the basis for your suspicion against me, I'll try to clarify. Here is my brief explanation: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:32 s0Lstice wrote: I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent. I will.. ## unFOS: Miltonkram ...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. And here is your quote, for reference: + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote: Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times. You said we shouldn't post reads on a person when the result of the read is town. I see the logic behind this argument and wouldn't have taken issue with it. I read it as: none of us townies should be posting reads of any sort, as it is giving scummies information they dont have. I think you'd agree that there is no town motivation for saying such a thing? I agree that it appears flighty to ##FOS and un##FOS on you like I did, but the error was pointed out to me and I owned up to it. Regarding your second point, I removed my FOS because the pressure stopped existing, as I was the only one pressuring you at the time. Sciberbia posted his case against you before I hit submit (I usually do a refresh before posting, and my post was sitting there on screen for awhile thanks to a busy day at the office!), and I knew I should address it as it was particularly cogent. I promised to have a look at your filter again following my gaffe to get a fresh read, and to comment on sciberbia's case. If you look you'll see I did as I promised. | ||
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hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: @hegeo: So you see me as scummy/suspicious? No, I merely asked you to comment (believe me or not, maybe my wording was too harsh), since in comparison there was really not to much original content. Now you post a defense which I can agree on for the time being. Let's take a look at your reasoning: I'll follow the chronological order of your post. So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then. You are right, I have no "problem" with it, but I expect anybody to analyze other players' behaviour (look at how people are starting to argue). I also stated (to quote my post: "I give you the benefit of the doubt here, since it is the first post and my first post was hard for me also") + Show Spoiler + Going on to the 3rd excerpt: You state the following: + Show Spoiler + This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you. I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. It's was basically to see how you react. I see nothing fishy in your response atm. Mordanis called me out for posting 10 mins after Miltonkram, this is allowed and good for town if things get clarified. I asked you directly and today and didn't bring it up 3hrs before deadline, so that you have time to discuss about it. Next snippet is me repsonding to sciberbia regarding my stance on him and as you take it out of context it looks useless. I believe it to have served it's purpose of further clarifying my opinion. Reread it, you are right. My apologies. Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). Agreed. I just figured that we don't want unclear reads and too many lurkers before deadline. With this post here, you clearly did more Mufaa ever did in the thread, That was unclear for me before, and surely also for others. And I just saw your answer to Sciberbia: I don't think you're going at my throat. And please also try asking me when something I do is fishy to you. There is no scum hiding (perhaps a newbie player though) in my posts, and I'm willing to show that to you. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
Anyways, I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. Hopefully that'll make the quality go up a few notches. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Notice that all I've done is apply pressure. I've never claimed that a small filter is a scum guarantee. Being relatively quiet is plenty of reason to pressure you, just as it is plenty of reason to pressure me. You've responded with gusto, and that's good for everybody, as we have more to go on. I still don't buy your explanation for why you didn't address my accusation. The fact remains that you attacked instead of explained. You wanting to throw the ball my way is fine, but doing so in lieu of a defense to pretty weak pressure (based on filter size, which I agree with you is weak) is scummy. As such I still suspect you. You wonder why I don't focus on him (Mufaa). Everybody is suspicious of him, me saying so serves no purpose. We know already his name will probably come up for lynch tomorrow because lurkers are at best useless and at worst dangerous. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On May 23 2012 05:14 sciberbia wrote: + Show Spoiler + My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo: Your primary accusation and most tangible peace of evidence is that hegeo's first post was 10 minutes after Milton called out the three people left to post. I don't find this very inciminating. If hegeo was mafia and worried about looking like a lurker, he'd just have posted a fluffy sorta "hi all" first post, similar to Milton, solstice etc. If he's mafia and not that worried about looking like a lurker, why would he panic so much? It just doesn't make much sense to me. If you were mafia, would you watch the thread, wait until someone calls you out as lurking, and then post 10 minutes later? Seems dumb. I see where you're coming from, and I agree it's a bit fishy, but I guess I'm just more willing to believe it's a coincadence than you are. And I liked the actual content of his first post. + Show Spoiler + Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy. I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia. Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi. Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching. I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations. Talk about filler. You had filler before and now more filler. This is purely WIFOM and does not help the town one bit. And the length of this WIFOM is absurd too. Wasting the townies' time. Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis. ##FOS: Sciberia I haven't read the subsequent posts yet but i need to make this heard. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote: Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo: + Show Spoiler + I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it. As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa). Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content. Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy. @ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi. ##unFOS: s0Lstice ##FOS: ShiaoPi | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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hegeo
Germany194 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote: On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote: Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote: 1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion. I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post: First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people. Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful? a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... ... your answer was this: You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: To answer in your own words: Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. + Show Spoiler + Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. I agree. At that time, I wanted to point out that I found it slightly irritating, that you would try to pressure people before seeing a considerable amount of players posting their thoughts and directly tried to pressure a post that I read pro-town. Mordanis critizised you for that also, not only me. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia.+ Show Spoiler + The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. I said that it is not ideal to lynch lurkers. At the time I wrote that, 3 or more players didn't contribute anything (or not much). Still at this very moment, Mufaa hasn't written anything but "hello" basically. So we can't just let him stay in the game when he lurks in this extreme fashion. Do you agree on that? ------- + Show Spoiler + c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. I misquoted you there, as you can see in your original post the text was somewhat strangely formatted, and part of the quote was displayed in normal fontsize so I misinterpreted it, your post makes more sense now, I apologize. ------- + Show Spoiler + In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. Why don't you acknowledge that we (not only me but also e.g. Sciberbia) also tried to do the same that you say you tried, namely illuminate places where scum could hide? I called you, Mordanis, ShiaoPi (did I forget somebody?) out because of things that I was interested in, all of you answered and I tried to answer to your posts as well as I could. ------- + Show Spoiler + "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). Please also try to quote correctly. I said: It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. I don't see anything wrong with my point here, I just wanted to make you aware of that. ----- I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo So, I replied. In my answer to Mordanis, I added a spoilered paragraph stating what I think I contributed today (again, newbie here). I hope to read new input tomorrow morning, especially from Mufaa. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On May 23 2012 07:59 Release wrote: Talk about filler. You had filler before and now more filler. This is purely WIFOM and does not help the town one bit. And the length of this WIFOM is absurd too. Wasting the townies' time. ##FOS: Sciberia I disagree that my thoughts on the "coincidence debacle" is purely WIFOM. Mordanis's argument was that hegeo made a knee-jerk reaction. A knee-jerk reaction wouldn't be WIFOM. I was stating that I'm skeptical that hegeo would panic so much. I'm gathering that it is frowned upon whenever I elaborate my thoughts too much, but I don't really see how this hurts town. I'm not just providing filler - I think I've already posted enough that I'm not going to be accused of lurking, so I don't see what mafia motive I could have for defending hegeo as I did. Whereas I do have a town motive: trying to decide on our best lynch target. And if you decide to unFOS me, please remember to do it twice, because I don't believe you ever removed your last FOS on me. That would be great :D I will be inactive for the next 17 hours or so due to studying, sleep, and a final. On the upside, I'll be able to be very active for the last 6 hours before the deadline. I think we should start figuring out who are our realistic lynch candidates for tomorrow. And MUFAA will you please contribute? | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On me, and that I "outright chasten[..] Release" + Show Spoiler + Sorry, did I quoted you wrong here? You said: On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote: Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. I just wanted to point out that I didn't want to repeat what you said. Do others think I quoted him wrong and do you think I did it in a dismissive way, hence "chastening" release? Wtf is this shit? So you say that you think my aggressiveness isn't helping. Fair comment. But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. And i will repeat myself: The longer you wait to respond to my post On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote: the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
@ Mufaa- If you want me to change my vote for you, you better get in here and start posting. It's really hard to have good town play if even one person is lurking. ##Vote: Mufaa This is something I think everyone should keep in mind. We only have one player who is hardcore lurking. That means we have at least one mafia who is staying fairly active in the thread. I need some more time to think this line of thought through (What kind of active town benefits a mafia? What can we do to prevent that kind of town from happening?), but it's good to keep in mind when reading through a player's filter. | ||
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