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On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks
Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)?
On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there.
I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that.
On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.
Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then.
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This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times.
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I would also like to propose that every time somebody writes "walls of text" when he deems them necessary (and only then ofc), he could add a very short tl;dr (even though we should all read it carefully) for easier future references.This could help us expose long zero-content-post and, as well as all further structuring of posts in general. I don't think this is worthy of long discussions though, I'll do it from now on, if you think the same, just do it next time.
Just fluff therefore spoilered:
+ Show Spoiler + I think sciberbia did a somewhat good job structuring his post to make it easier to read. I could clearly get his point, although he repeated his thoughts.
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@Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read.
I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia.
However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake).
Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post)
TL;DR
1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early.
2. Keep a personal list of reads.
3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly.
4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip.
My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep.
Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable.
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On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:
I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh.
It seems that we are all in agreement that not lynching today is a bad idea. However, I disagree with the idea that lynching a townie is better than no lynch at all. I will not vote for someone that I have a strong townie read on. I don't think losing a townie and potential role is worth dubious information. Our goal is to lynch scum.
On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it.
As I stated in my post, I went to sleep soon afterwards. I have just woken up, read the thread, and typed out this post. I don't think my absence should be viewed as suspicious since I told you I was going to sleep.
On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
So, it seems that there is some suspicion on me, headed by Release. The main accusation seems to be that I wrote a lot of fluffy text, trying to make it look like I was contributing, while not actually saying much. I guess this is a reasonable accusation, because everyone agrees with everything I said. I just wasn't aware that it was obvious to everyone.
I agree with Miltonkram that we should focus our efforts on scumhunting, but at the beginning of the game, there is obviously not a lot to go on, so my primary goal was to generate discussion, as I stated in my post. Discussion prompts people to post, and this allows us to analyze their posts for reads.
While it seems that we are all in agreement that no-lynch is a very bad idea and that nobody will be roleclaiming on day 1, this was not obvious to me at the time of my post. Mordanis said that his last game started out with a discussion to vote or not. Basically, I did not know that you'd all agree.
The same goes for day 1 roleclaims. In closed setups, day 1 roleclaim can help town, and I didn't know that you'd all agree that roleclaiming is a bad idea. I agree that my hypothetical scenario is a bit confusing, and it is rendered unnecssary by the fact that you all agree not to roleclaim. I did not know you'd agree.
Perhaps in future I will confirm that someone actually disagrees before trying to persuade you, so you don't have to read my "fluff". I'm not trying to claim that I have any brilliant and novel logic or plans. I was just trying to generate discussion and confirm some basic things that will help town, as I stated in my post. At the very least, I think I succeeded in the former goal.
I will be concentrating the rest of my efforts towards finding scum.
P.S. I think hegeo meant he thinks its NOT a good idea to share town reads, a statement with which I agree for the reasons he stated.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now.
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We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
---snipped---
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion.
Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well?
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On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies.
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Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release.
+ Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip.
From Newbie II game
+ Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that.
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On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.)
I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch.
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet.
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On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton. ##FOS: Miltonkram
Posting reads on people is a slippery slope. If one of us happens to post a townie read on one of the scum, then they'll know that their play is working fine and can continue to keep playing this way. If this is coupled with a scum read on one of the townies, i could easily see a bandwagon forming.
And this is just a general thing that we all have to do to differentiate townies from scum:
Form your own ideas; doing this allows us to dissect as much scumminess as we can. Do not simply repeat ideas and agree with other people without sufficient reasoning.
You have been warned.
Second, people need to post more. If we don't post more, this gives more opportunities for the scum to hide without taking any heat.
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On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
Still, we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet.
I'm pretty sure we have 8 + 24 = 32 hours to the deadline. Day phases are 48 hours.
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Just a quick note (I'm on my phone), but days are 48 hours.
Shiaopi, my filter is small as well, yes. The onus is on both of us to contribute.
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On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
Excellent point.
On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
I think you misunderstood Milton's point. He is saying that we should focus on who we think is mafia, not on who we think is town. If we all agree that someone is town, that gets us nowhere and just gives mafia an easy kill target.
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However, MILTON is currently one of my top two scumreads based on his posts:
On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there.
Here is his first post. In his first post, all he basically does is pressure other people to post and also say nothing. He also expresses disdain for lurkers/inactives, which is about the least controversial thing he could do. Seems a bit scummy.
On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
In his second post, he first tries to compliment the most active player at the time. He also tries to support the accusation against me, basically just repeating what Release said.
On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times.
In this post, he continues to try to build suspicion against me, but he just says my post was "a bit suspect". Aside from the fact that before he said he seemed "quite scummy to him", he tries to not take too harsh a stance. Also, his statement to golden is bascially just a rehash of what hegeo said earlier and isn't too controversial.
IN SUMMARY:
I think milton is scummy:
- he hasn't posted a ton but enough not to be lurky
- he tried to pile supsicion on me but was wishy/washy about it
- he isn't sticking his neck out on anything
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Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it.
Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them:
On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged.
On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet.
b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance.
c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post...
On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this:
On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that.
You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff
On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis
and then, you FOS Sciberibia...
On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia
..before even un##FOSing Mordanis:
On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words:
On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute).
It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information.
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I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post.
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EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler +(I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context).
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
Since we all agree on lurkers being suspicious, I would suggest taking a closer look on Mufaa. Although we are still in Day and the amount of posts is therefore pretty limited, his filter contains an amazing single post. I am not sure about his timezone but still a single post only?
Maybe I am also biased as he was one of the lurking scum in Newbie Mafia XIII, but he really reminds me of his play in the last game right now...
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EPT
