EPTNewbie Mini XIV - Page 4
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote: So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia! Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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Mufaa
219 Posts
On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote: Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
Firstly, I'm happy to report that I rolled townie :D so I'll be doing my best to contribute. Well, it's Day 1 and as I see it we have two primary objectives: 1) decide that we should indeed lynch 2) lynch the person most likely to be mafia I hope to generate some discussion as well as help us develop our gameplan by posing the following three questions: 1) First of all, can we all agree that it is in our best interest to lynch today? - If we have no DT, going to night gets us nothing except knowledge of which townie (and potential role) the mafia chose to kill for free. Not very helpful. Just based on this case alone, I think it makes sense to lynch today. - Even if we have a DT, it's not like they can claim today as there is no gurantee that we have a medic. And there's just so many bad things that can happen: DT could get hit by mafia, DT could get shot by vig, DT could be fooled by framer/godfather, DT could be roleblocked. The only purpose of not lynching would be to buy our DT (if we have one) time to get some checks, but I don't think it's worth it for the reasons listed above. We might not even have a DT. Mordanis seems to also be of the opinion that we should lynch. Do we all agree? 2) Can we all accept that we might have to vote for our 2nd or 3rd top choice? Obviously, we want to lynch the person most likely to be mafia. However, it is unlikely that we all agree on the most likely mafia candiate. We need 5 votes to lynch someone, and there are only 7 townies, so we have to vote together for the mostpart. I think we should all accept the fact that you may have to vote for someone other than your top candidate so that we at least get a lynch. If somebody has 4 votes on them at the deadline and I think there is a 2/8 chance they are mafia, I'd be willing to change my vote to them just so that we get a lynch. I hope you would all do the same. 3)Can anyone think of a scenario where a day 1 roleclaim is a good idea? One other point I want to bring up is the subject of day 1 roleclaims. I have never played a semi-open setup before, so this is new territory for me. It seems to me that there is no circumstance in which it makes sense to roleclaim on day 1. - I'm sure the game is set up so that mass roleclaim is a bad idea. It would give the mafia too much information. - No role can claim with assured protection of medic because we are not guaranteed a medic. - The final scenario where you might want to roleclaim is if you are about to be lynched. But my question is, should the fact that someone roleclaims deter us from lynching them? Consider the following hypothetical scenario: I am mafia (hypothetically!) and you all decide that my posts are extremely scummy and unanimously vote to lynch me day 1. If I'm mafia (which I'm not), I might as well claim DT or something. I can't really be counterclaimed because for all we know there are 2 DT's. So, should the fact that I claimed DT really make you all change your minds about the lynch? I think not. So, if you are townie are getting bandwaggoned, I think you should defend yourself as best as possible without roleclaiming. I don't think roleclaiming should sway our vote, and it just gives the mafia more information (because they are the only ones that know you're telling the truth.) Finally, Release just asked for opinion on lurkers. If someone is lurking, I will consider them slightly more likely to be mafia than someone who is not, all things being even. But I'd rather draw my scum reads from actual posts. I agree with Mufaa that more quality contributions from everyone can only help. I'm actually going to sleep soon. I'll be back online in about 9 hours at which time I will read the thread. Hope to see lots of discussion. Night. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote: I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. First bold: Logical, a bit obvious, but should be stated. Second bold: Are you saying that townies will always show townie posts? This is certainly not the case. Townies can and do make mistakes, which is probably the cause of 99% of mislynches in mafia. Honest =/= True. For example, if you are being "honest" in this post, you have clearly made a "mistake." Is that to suggest that you are Mafia? A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On May 22 2012 09:36 sciberbia wrote: 1) First of all, can we all agree that it is in our best interest to lynch today? 2) Can we all accept that we might have to vote for our 2nd or 3rd top choice? 3)Can anyone think of a scenario where a day 1 roleclaim is a good idea? One other point I want to bring up is the subject of day 1 roleclaims. I have never played a semi-open setup before, so this is new territory for me. It seems to me that there is no circumstance in which it makes sense to roleclaim on day 1. - I'm sure the game is set up so that mass roleclaim is a bad idea. It would give the mafia too much information. - No role can claim with assured protection of medic because we are not guaranteed a medic. - The final scenario where you might want to roleclaim is if you are about to be lynched. But my question is, should the fact that someone roleclaims deter us from lynching them? Consider the following hypothetical scenario: I am mafia (hypothetically!) and you all decide that my posts are extremely scummy and unanimously vote to lynch me day 1. If I'm mafia (which I'm not), I might as well claim DT or something. I can't really be counterclaimed because for all we know there are 2 DT's. So, should the fact that I claimed DT really make you all change your minds about the lynch? I think not. So, if you are townie are getting bandwaggoned, I think you should defend yourself as best as possible without roleclaiming. I don't think roleclaiming should sway our vote, and it just gives the mafia more information (because they are the only ones that know you're telling the truth.) Finally, Release just asked for opinion on lurkers. If someone is lurking, I will consider them slightly more likely to be mafia than someone who is not, all things being even. But I'd rather draw my scum reads from actual posts. I agree with Mufaa that more quality contributions from everyone can only help. I'm actually going to sleep soon. I'll be back online in about 9 hours at which time I will read the thread. Hope to see lots of discussion. Night. 1) Of course we should lynch. Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion. 2) Isn't this just repeating question #1? If we don't say yes to 2, we don't say yes to 1. 3) Roleclaim can't be confirmed either way. It turns into WIFOM; useless. Actually, it's worse than useless because it gives the mafia an opportunity to see which roles people have (if they claim truthfully) or makes townies suspicious of each other (claim false). Roleclaim on Day 1 is a bad idea. Your hypothetical is just that: completely hypothetical and it leaves no room for solid evidence. I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post: First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people. Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful? Third, i already explain some of it above, but to further my point: You have a conclusion that is " I think you should defend yourself as best as possible without roleclaiming. I don't think roleclaiming should sway our vote, and it just gives the mafia more information (because they are the only ones that know you're telling the truth.)" Why did you need to post all of that other stuff that is just WIFOM territory? ##FOS: Sciberbia | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote: You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why. The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town. As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching. As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] + Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
But i do understand where you're coming from, and it is not my intention to stop others from posting. Also, the reason i mentioned the way you used your previous game was that you had a point you wanted to make and your previous game was not entirely consistent with that point.(luck vs still want a lynch despite low chance of luck). | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
##unFOS: Mordanis What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.) | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post: -Golden -hegeo -ShiaoPi I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. | ||
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hegeo
Germany194 Posts
On May 22 2012 15:41 Release wrote: I'll write a more detailed post soon but the reason to my aggressiveness is to make sure we don't end up saying "well, we have no solid case, so we may as well lynch [name]." I have read through some previous newbie mafia games where people are so passive that no one receives any serious heat whatsoever. When this happens, the conversation of hunting scum stops and people start discussing far less important matter (such as lynch vs no-lynch, who is what role, figure out who is town because we can't figure out who is scum). Also, passiveness towards active members shifts the heat towards the lurkers, which is the same as wasting a day. But i do understand where you're coming from, and it is not my intention to stop others from posting. Also, the reason i mentioned the way you used your previous game was that you had a point you wanted to make and your previous game was not entirely consistent with that point.(luck vs still want a lynch despite low chance of luck). Agreed. And just to give everyone once and for all my opinion on that (so that we can start scum hunting): We should definitely try to get a majority for lynching every day. Every no-lynch is a win for scum since they will kill one townie every night. Even if a pure luck based lynch is bad, it's even worse to not lynch at all. (This part is basically what others already said) Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say. sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote: EBWOP: I understand your post so for now: ##unFOS: Mordanis What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.) I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch. On that train of thought, when do you think we need to start panicking? I mean this question for everyone. If we panic too early, we'll vote early and have little information for that vote and also little information for the next vote. If we go to late, we risk a no-lynch, which as (I think) everyone agrees, would not be a good decision. I'm thinking that with about 12 hours left, we should start consolodating for a lynch. Can everybody be fairly active for at least a few posts in the 12 hours leading up to the vote? One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
EBWOP: Just so everyone knows, I'm going to sleep and then I have a 30 mile bicycle ride in the morning. I may be gone as much as 10-12 hours. I'll try to get something in about 6 hours when I wake up, but I may not be able to if there has been a lot of activity. That being said, I really need the sleep now. 'Night All (except for mafia  )+ Show Spoiler + I love the Smilies & BBCode section :D | ||
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O.Golden_ne
Australia204 Posts
Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler + A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do. I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense. Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game. I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. | ||
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