|
![[image loading]](http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/chuiu/TLmafia_new.png)
*marvellosity is helping me co-host this game. Any questions can be directed towards him or myself.
The coaches for this game are: TBD. Please consult them if you want advice on playing the game.
Newbie Mini XIV
+ Show Spoiler [Important Posts] +
Introduction:
Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
Rules:
Cheating:
Cheating includes (but is not limited to):
1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information.
2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town.
3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role.
4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles.
5. Posting screenshots of your inbox.
6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host.
7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip.
8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts.
9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits.
10. Sharing accounts with other players unless cleared by the host in advance. Otherwise, only you may post on your account.
11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM.
12. Posting a false role PM phrased as if you received it from the host. You can still fake roleclaim, but you cannot make it look like you are posting a PM you received from the host.
Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting:
Mod Font:
This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font:
This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity:
You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote:
Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam:
Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here.
Editing:
Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.
Inappropriate posts:
If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, Flamewheel, or Mig before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Reporting posts:
The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions:
Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Out of thread communication:
It is common for mafia (and town circles if PMs are allowed) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk.
Voting rules:
1. Voting is done IN THIS THREAD. Please vote only here. Do not PM me your vote.
2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance.
3. No conditional voting.
4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.
5. No Lynch is allowed. You may vote for No-Lynch using the same format.
6. Voting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.
7. This game uses an Extended Majority Lynch ruleset, under which it will take half the players remaining +1 to lynch. If a player fails to have the required votes by the deadline, no lynch will occur. Players are allowed to change their vote up to the deadline, even if a Majority is reached before the deadline.
Signups:
This game is open to Newbies Only. We define "newbie" as 3 games or less played on TL, though you'll feel like a "newbie" for much longer.
Do not sign up if you've played more than 3 games here.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills:
This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements
This game uses replacements. Replacements will be made in the game until the end of N2. If a player is modkilled during the designated time, then they will be replaced by a player on the replacement list.
Clues:
There are no clues.
PMs
PMs are NOT allowed in this game.
Time Cycle:
This game will follow a (24 hour night/48 hour) day cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is time, but that is subject to change. Actions/votes will be accepted up to and including the posted time, but not after.
Credits:
Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer.
Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
|
Roles and Setup information
This is a semi-open setup, that is, exact role counts will not be known, but the possible roles will be known. All roles presented here are not necessarily in the game, but no roles not included here are present.
Town Roles
Town Wincondition- The town wins when there are no mafia left in the game
Vanilla Townie - You are just an ordinary citizen of the town of Liquidia, you are terrified of the mafia, and must strive to weed them out before the exterminate you and your fellow citizens. Every day you may vote for who you want to see lynched. Your wits and your votes will carry the town to glorious victory or shameful defeat.
Detective - You are a incredible sleuth, using your keen powers of deduction and the awesome astral charts from the seer's academy, you have the ability to inspect a player every night. You will find out if they are Town or Mafia. You are guaranteed to be sane, but beware of millers, framers and the godfather.
Medic - You are a recent medical school graduate, still struggling to pay the bills. Fortunately you have found employment here in Liquidia. Every night, you may choose to visit a player for a check up, if they would be hit that night, you manage to save them from the first kill aimed at them. Neither you nor your target will be notified of a successful protection.
Jailkeeper - Equipped with chloroform and rope, you steal into the night to kidnap a random person and lock them in your basement “for safety”. Once per night, you may target a player to protect from 1kp and roleblock. You win with the town.
Vigilante - You are an armed and dangerous fellow! You have secured a gun and are going to use it to take justice into your own hands. During any night of the game you may choose to fire at a player, this works exactly like a mafia hit. If your shot stacks with a mafia kill or another vigilante, it will not be refunded, if you are roleblocked, you will not lose your shot, even if you intended to fire that night.
Mafia Roles
Mafia Win condition- The mafia wins when they equal or outnumber the remaining townies or nothing can keep that from happening.
Mafia Powers - (all mafia have these, unless specifically stated otherwise) All mafia may vote, as ordinary citizens of liquidia. All mafia may communicate with each other outside the thread, by any means they wish, and know who the other mafia are. As a group, the mafia team have kp equal one, each night, which they may use however they want.
Mafia Goon- One of the newest recruits to the mafia, you are here to visit vengeance on the town. You have no special powers outside the regular mafia powers. Now destroy these fledgling fools, make them see the power of the mafia!
Mafia Roleblocker - An expert in the use of the terrible drug Nocando, in addition to the usual mafia powers, you can choose to visit a player each night and drug them, keeping them from performing any night actions. Regardless of their role, they will be notified that they were knocked out in the morning.
Mafia Framer - An ex-detective, you know exactly what those schmucks look for when investigating people. In addition to the normal mafia powers, you may choose to frame a player each night, making them return the opposite of what they should to detectives, that is a framed mafia goon returns Town and a framed Vanilla Townie returns Mafia
Mafia Godfather - The regional leader of the mafia, you know exactly what it takes to look innocent. In addition to the normal mafia powers, you return Town to any detective that investigates you.
Mafia Rolecop - An astrologist and soothslayer turned to crime, in addition to the usual mafia powers, you may investigate a player each night and find out their role.
Additionally, the mafia will receive copies of the Vanilla Townie PM and of each blue role, in order to prevent things like PM based closed ciphers.
|
Player List
1.) Release
2.) Miltonkram
3.) Mordanis
4.) Mufaa skware
5.) s0Lstice, Vanilla Townie Killed N2
6.) sciberbia, Vanilla Townie Killed N1
7.) O.Golden_ne, Vanilla Townie Lynched D2
8.) hegeo, Town Doctor Lynched D1
9.) ShiaoPi
Replacements
1.) skware
2.) Inigmaticalism
3.) austinmcc
4.)
2/2 Mafia Remaining
Mafia KP currently equals 1
3/7 Town Remaining
PM me for the observer QT, or if you wish to be listed as an official coach
|
I want to play in a 9man mini sometime, have never had the chance. Will be obsing this one closely ^^
|
I'll take a stab at it.
I've never played before and have no idea how these things will go.
|
On May 16 2012 12:32 Release wrote:
I'll take a stab at it.
I've never played before and have no idea how these things will go.
"/in" is the standard request for participation, for future reference.
There are several resources available for new players here in the sub-forum, but I suggest you start just by reading a newbie game or two. There's no set way to play as you'll find out, and it's going to take you more than three games to be considered "good" at the game, so just focus on learning your first couple of times.
Welcome /in sir.
|
which voting system gets used? there are 3 options (i read somewhere, can't find it in this thread) but i don't remember reading on which specific voting system gets used for a particular game. Also, do the mafia know who is mafia, but the townies don't know who is townie?
|
is it ok to edit before the game starts? editted the last one, but don't want to edit any more before clarification
|
/in This will be my first mafia game after lurking in this forum for a while. I'm excited to become a part of the action!
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
Edit is fine before the game starts. Do so once it starts and you are doomed. VE will clarify voting systems in the near future.
|
/in
I'm gonna be really mad if anyone leaves before they die... It'll be fun though with Marv cohosting :D:D:D:D:D
+ Show Spoiler +hahahahahahahaha I'm editing for the sake of editing - In a mafia thread. hahahahahahahahahahahaha
|
/in (if I'm allowed). Played in XIII but I was nightkilled so I'm out of it even though the game is going on.
|
"All mafia may communicate with each other outside the thread, by any means they wish"
does that include PM?
|
On May 16 2012 14:58 Release wrote:
which voting system gets used? there are 3 options (i read somewhere, can't find it in this thread) but i don't remember reading on which specific voting system gets used for a particular game. Also, do the mafia know who is mafia, but the townies don't know who is townie?
I'll update the OP, but Extended-Majority lynch is going to be the model we use in this game - it will take half the remaining players +1 to lynch someone or the result will be no lynch...and players will have until the deadline to vote.
Mafia (informed minority) always know who their teammates are, but townies (uninformed majoirty) never know who's who.
On May 16 2012 15:26 Release wrote:
is it ok to edit before the game starts? editted the last one, but don't want to edit any more before clarification
It's fine, but because this question was asked, I'm considering this the warning for ALL players once the game starts. No edits once the game has commenced (the Day 1 post) or it WILL result in a modkill.
On May 17 2012 13:52 Release wrote:
"All mafia may communicate with each other outside the thread, by any means they wish"
does that include PM?
That includes site-PMs, the provided quicktopic or any other means they wish. However, if the mafia team chooses to use IRC, beware that shennanigans HAVE been known to occur in IRC in an effort to cheat. This is very not cool, so it's suggested that mafia use EXTREME CAUTION when using IRC for discussion.
|
/in
Hello TL Mafia, this will be my first game
|
Regarding the activity requirements...is it one post for each day and each night, or one post for the 72 hour day+night period?
|
48 hour day +night i'm pretty sure. 24 for day, 24 for night.
|
On May 19 2012 09:53 s0Lstice wrote:
Regarding the activity requirements...is it one post for each day and each night, or one post for the 72 hour day+night period?
In order to meet the (very lenient) activity requirements, you must post at least once during each cycle, where a cycle is defined as both the 48hr Day phase and the 24hr Night phase combined.
|
agree that they are very lenient, i hope nobody skirts that line
|
/in
Hi all. This will be my first time playing on a forum. Can't wait to start :D
|
|
|
|
|
Hey all, will do my best finding/hiding scum  although i will mainly be able to read the thread while most of you sleep/work/study/whatever due to my timezone.
On May 19 2012 10:54 s0Lstice wrote:
agree that they are very lenient, i hope nobody skirts that line
Yep, one post in 48h is pretty much a free win for mafia.
So... one more person to start?
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
|
|
|
I'd be happy to throw my name in as a replacement for this one.
|
|
|
Hey Visc, the description for detective says "beware of millers". Is there a miller in the game and you forgot to mention it or is it just a copy/paste-error?
|
I have a few questions about the various roles.
The vigilante has only one shot, correct?
Will we be told whether a night kill was due to a vigilante shot or a mafia hit?
Will you be notified if you're kidnapped by the jailkeeper? If so, will you be told that it was indeed the jailkeeper that roleblocked you, and not the mafia roleblocker?
If the framer attempts to frame a blue or a mafia with a role, does this simply have no affect on anything?
|
I have a good feeling about this field of players
|
And another question, if you don't mind
What is the priority of role actions at night? Defensive/RB/Framer actions generally before kill actions or is there another distinct order? E.g. does a framer who gets killed by a vig at night still frame his target that night or does killing also work like a RB?
|
/in (Replacement, if spots are still open)
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
Hmm, let me see if I can rustle up a VisceraEyes from somewhere...
|
On May 20 2012 15:09 hegeo wrote:
Hey Visc, the description for detective says "beware of millers". Is there a miller in the game and you forgot to mention it or is it just a copy/paste-error?
Copy-Paste error - there are no millers in this setup. My bad.
On May 20 2012 15:33 sciberbia wrote:
I have a few questions about the various roles.
The vigilante has only one shot, correct?
Will we be told whether a night kill was due to a vigilante shot or a mafia hit?
Will you be notified if you're kidnapped by the jailkeeper? If so, will you be told that it was indeed the jailkeeper that roleblocked you, and not the mafia roleblocker?
If the framer attempts to frame a blue or a mafia with a role, does this simply have no affect on anything?
Correct, the vigilante is one-shot.
You won't be informed who killed who, only who died.
You won't be notified that you were jailed unless you've got a power-role and you were roleblocked as a result of the jailing. And no, you won't be told whether it was the Jailer or Mafia who roleblocked you - only that you were roleblocked.
All the framer does is frame someone to be the opposite alignment that they are currently - Vanilla Town and blue roles alike will show up as "Guilty" to DT checks, and Mafia will show up as "Innocent" to DT checks.
I'll be starting this game up tomorrow at deadline, which is currently set at 10pm EST. This deadline is open for discussion, as I'd rather have a deadline based on the players.
|
On May 20 2012 18:26 hegeo wrote:And another question, if you don't mind What is the priority of role actions at night? Defensive/RB/Framer actions generally before kill actions or is there another distinct order? E.g. does a framer who gets killed by a vig at night still frame his target that night or does killing also work like a RB?
Meh - I wouldn't worry too much about this. Suffice to say that killing does not roleblock the victim.
|
Thanks for the answer. To me personally, an earlier deadline was better, since 10pm EST is 4am here, so I wouldn't be able to participate before deadlines. But I really don't know wether a way earlier (5pm-ish) /later deadline worked for all the Eastern US players, so...
|
Yeah, I'd actually like you guys to talk about it - if 5PM is better for everyone, I can do that.
|
5PM EST would be problematic for me, considering i won't be able to get on until about 7PM EST.
|
5pm EST would work for me but I understand that it might not work for everyone. We probably won't be able to find a time that suits everyone perfectly, so if we agree on a time that's difficult for me it's no big deal.
I typically work from 7pm to 3am EST, if we can find a deadline that doesn't occur in that range that would be ideal.
|
Hey guys, so what would you say about an 8PM EST deadline? Could stay on til at least 6PM EST or so, should suffice. 6PM EST would also mean early morning in Australia/Taiwan (approx 8AM).
|
hegeo- That could work for me. I likely wouldn't be able to post in the last hour leading up to the end of the cycle, but that's better than picking a time later in my work shift. I'm all for 8pm EST if everyone else is.
|
I'm quite flexible. Currently in the middle of finals and I'm nocturnal as often as not, so any deadline is about equally good for me.
|
I work a lot from 5-10pm (8pm - 1am EST), so if the deadline could be sometime before that, I'd be very happy ^^
|
So maybe 5PM would be better after all?... well let's see what the rest of us says... see y'all tomorrow
|
if it was 5PM EST, i would be absent for much of the end of every day and night (last 6 hours before game ends, and i could only get in a few comments before that), and i would be put under an awful lot of suspicion for being a lurker.
|
I don't have a preference for the most part. I'll make it work as best I can for whatever we decide.
|
On May 21 2012 09:16 s0Lstice wrote:
I don't have a preference for the most part. I'll make it work as best I can for whatever we decide.
This.
|
all times EST
indifferent - sciberbia, golden, solstice
not heard from - mufaa, shiaopi
hegeo - can stay on until 6pm
Milton - starts work at 7pm
mordan - starts work at 8pm
release - can't get on until 7pm
Looks to me like 7:30pm EST makes the most sense. Any earlier is nice for hegeo, milton, and mordan, but it would really screw over release. Any later is slightly beneficial to release, but detrimental to hegeo, milton, and mordan.
If the deadline is indeed 7:30, we should just be aware that a couple people might be gone for the last hour or so, and not to wait until the last minute for a roleclaim or anything.
Thoughts on 7:30pm EST? Especially mufaa and shiaopi?
|
Thanks for putting the list together sciberbia. 7:30 or 8ish would be just fine, I'm flexible enough to make anything work. I suppose it also depends on VE's schedule, so I won't get set on any time until I hear from him.
I agree that last minute roleclaims or bandwagons are a bad idea if we set it up at this time.
|
7:30 sounds find to me, I would also think that it would be OK for VE. We'll just have to make our minds up some hours before the deadline then, and everybody has to be aware that interpretation why people are not in the thread is futile.
We may wait for thoughts from Mufaa and Shiaopi, but generally, having 7 of 9 players agree on it is pretty much the best case scenario already...
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
7:30 EST should be okay I guess, I am in CEST timezone right now, so it is manageable.
|
I just PM'd Mufaa, but I think 7:30EST is pretty much settled now that 8 out of 9 decided for it.
VE, are you OK with a 7:30PM EST deadline? We all pretty much agreed on that.
Gl hf
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
Early enough for me to be around for day/night posts, nice.
|
7:30pm EST seems to be the agreed upon time - I'm okay with this if everyone else is. Role PMs will go out tonight, and the game will start ~7:30pm tonight. GL HFeveryone.
|
7:30 est works for me. I can do pretty much any time though (except between 3am-8am est)
|
Thanks Viscera! Thanks Sciberia! Gl everyone!
|
Day 1![[image loading]](http://www.wallpapers4desktop.net/_ph/2/2/466311014.jpg)
A dark wind is blowing in the town of Liquidia. It seems the Mafia have returned. It's time to weed them out and destroy them. That's where you come in. Every day, you must choose one from among you to......well, you know. Destroy. Allow me to demonstrate on this random passer-by.
Foolishness the Foolish Ness has been destroyed in a fashion that is not telling of who killed him whatsoever, much like everyone else in the game who dies shall be.
marvellosity the Marvelous City has similarly been destroyed in a non-telling fashion.
VisceraEyes the Host cannot be killed by any means in games he hosts. Sorry.
It is now Day 1. You have 48 hours to decide who you'd like to remove from the game permanantly.
|
WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE
Be on notice mafia members, I will defend our town's honor to the last. Anyway, just wanted to say hi before bed. I'll be back in the wee hours of the morning, checking this thread when I should be working.
|
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks
|
The Deadline will be 48 hours from the Day post. Votes placed after the appointed time (7:30pm EST) will not count, regardless of when the actual Night Post is posted. We'll try and post it as close to the deadline as possible though, because we care. <3
|
On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks
You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie.
Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler.
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis
|
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers.
|
On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers.
I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest.
|
I see we have our first harsh words (accusation?) of the day. But, I just typed out this long post of things I want to get off my chest, so I'm going to change the subject a bit. Sorry Release. I respond to your lurkers query at the end.
Firstly, I'm happy to report that I rolled townie :D so I'll be doing my best to contribute.
Well, it's Day 1 and as I see it we have two primary objectives:
1) decide that we should indeed lynch
2) lynch the person most likely to be mafia
I hope to generate some discussion as well as help us develop our gameplan by posing the following three questions:
1) First of all, can we all agree that it is in our best interest to lynch today?
- If we have no DT, going to night gets us nothing except knowledge of which townie (and potential role) the mafia chose to kill for free. Not very helpful. Just based on this case alone, I think it makes sense to lynch today.
- Even if we have a DT, it's not like they can claim today as there is no gurantee that we have a medic. And there's just so many bad things that can happen: DT could get hit by mafia, DT could get shot by vig, DT could be fooled by framer/godfather, DT could be roleblocked.
The only purpose of not lynching would be to buy our DT (if we have one) time to get some checks, but I don't think it's worth it for the reasons listed above. We might not even have a DT.
Mordanis seems to also be of the opinion that we should lynch. Do we all agree?
2) Can we all accept that we might have to vote for our 2nd or 3rd top choice?
Obviously, we want to lynch the person most likely to be mafia. However, it is unlikely that we all agree on the most likely mafia candiate. We need 5 votes to lynch someone, and there are only 7 townies, so we have to vote together for the mostpart. I think we should all accept the fact that you may have to vote for someone other than your top candidate so that we at least get a lynch.
If somebody has 4 votes on them at the deadline and I think there is a 2/8 chance they are mafia, I'd be willing to change my vote to them just so that we get a lynch. I hope you would all do the same.
3)Can anyone think of a scenario where a day 1 roleclaim is a good idea?
One other point I want to bring up is the subject of day 1 roleclaims. I have never played a semi-open setup before, so this is new territory for me. It seems to me that there is no circumstance in which it makes sense to roleclaim on day 1.
- I'm sure the game is set up so that mass roleclaim is a bad idea. It would give the mafia too much information.
- No role can claim with assured protection of medic because we are not guaranteed a medic.
- The final scenario where you might want to roleclaim is if you are about to be lynched. But my question is, should the fact that someone roleclaims deter us from lynching them?
Consider the following hypothetical scenario:
I am mafia (hypothetically!) and you all decide that my posts are extremely scummy and unanimously vote to lynch me day 1. If I'm mafia (which I'm not), I might as well claim DT or something. I can't really be counterclaimed because for all we know there are 2 DT's. So, should the fact that I claimed DT really make you all change your minds about the lynch? I think not.
So, if you are townie are getting bandwaggoned, I think you should defend yourself as best as possible without roleclaiming. I don't think roleclaiming should sway our vote, and it just gives the mafia more information (because they are the only ones that know you're telling the truth.)
Finally, Release just asked for opinion on lurkers. If someone is lurking, I will consider them slightly more likely to be mafia than someone who is not, all things being even. But I'd rather draw my scum reads from actual posts. I agree with Mufaa that more quality contributions from everyone can only help.
I'm actually going to sleep soon. I'll be back online in about 9 hours at which time I will read the thread. Hope to see lots of discussion. Night.
|
On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. M ore content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest.
First bold: Logical, a bit obvious, but should be stated.
Second bold: Are you saying that townies will always show townie posts? This is certainly not the case. Townies can and do make mistakes, which is probably the cause of 99% of mislynches in mafia. Honest =/= True. For example, if you are being "honest" in this post, you have clearly made a "mistake." Is that to suggest that you are Mafia?
A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
|
On May 22 2012 09:36 sciberbia wrote:
1) First of all, can we all agree that it is in our best interest to lynch today?
2) Can we all accept that we might have to vote for our 2nd or 3rd top choice?
3)Can anyone think of a scenario where a day 1 roleclaim is a good idea?
One other point I want to bring up is the subject of day 1 roleclaims. I have never played a semi-open setup before, so this is new territory for me. It seems to me that there is no circumstance in which it makes sense to roleclaim on day 1.
- I'm sure the game is set up so that mass roleclaim is a bad idea. It would give the mafia too much information.
- No role can claim with assured protection of medic because we are not guaranteed a medic.
- The final scenario where you might want to roleclaim is if you are about to be lynched. But my question is, should the fact that someone roleclaims deter us from lynching them?
Consider the following hypothetical scenario:
I am mafia (hypothetically!) and you all decide that my posts are extremely scummy and unanimously vote to lynch me day 1. If I'm mafia (which I'm not), I might as well claim DT or something. I can't really be counterclaimed because for all we know there are 2 DT's. So, should the fact that I claimed DT really make you all change your minds about the lynch? I think not.
So, if you are townie are getting bandwaggoned, I think you should defend yourself as best as possible without roleclaiming. I don't think roleclaiming should sway our vote, and it just gives the mafia more information (because they are the only ones that know you're telling the truth.)
Finally, Release just asked for opinion on lurkers. If someone is lurking, I will consider them slightly more likely to be mafia than someone who is not, all things being even. But I'd rather draw my scum reads from actual posts. I agree with Mufaa that more quality contributions from everyone can only help.
I'm actually going to sleep soon. I'll be back online in about 9 hours at which time I will read the thread. Hope to see lots of discussion. Night.
1) Of course we should lynch. Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
2) Isn't this just repeating question #1? If we don't say yes to 2, we don't say yes to 1.
3) Roleclaim can't be confirmed either way. It turns into WIFOM; useless. Actually, it's worse than useless because it gives the mafia an opportunity to see which roles people have (if they claim truthfully) or makes townies suspicious of each other (claim false). Roleclaim on Day 1 is a bad idea.
Your hypothetical is just that: completely hypothetical and it leaves no room for solid evidence.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Third, i already explain some of it above, but to further my point: You have a conclusion that is " I think you should defend yourself as best as possible without roleclaiming. I don't think roleclaiming should sway our vote, and it just gives the mafia more information (because they are the only ones that know you're telling the truth.)" Why did you need to post all of that other stuff that is just WIFOM territory?
##FOS: Sciberbia
|
|
|
On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis
First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^
The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why.
The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town.
As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching.
As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum.
+ Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] +Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention.
And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well.
|
I'll write a more detailed post soon but the reason to my aggressiveness is to make sure we don't end up saying "well, we have no solid case, so we may as well lynch [name]." I have read through some previous newbie mafia games where people are so passive that no one receives any serious heat whatsoever. When this happens, the conversation of hunting scum stops and people start discussing far less important matter (such as lynch vs no-lynch, who is what role, figure out who is town because we can't figure out who is scum). Also, passiveness towards active members shifts the heat towards the lurkers, which is the same as wasting a day.
But i do understand where you're coming from, and it is not my intention to stop others from posting.
Also, the reason i mentioned the way you used your previous game was that you had a point you wanted to make and your previous game was not entirely consistent with that point.(luck vs still want a lynch despite low chance of luck).
|
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.)
|
EBWOP: (...answer his question, but rather...)
|
EBWOP: I think i actually covered most of what i wanted to cover in the first post, so don't expect a longer post from me in the immediate future.
|
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there.
|
On May 22 2012 15:41 Release wrote:
I'll write a more detailed post soon but the reason to my aggressiveness is to make sure we don't end up saying "well, we have no solid case, so we may as well lynch [name]." I have read through some previous newbie mafia games where people are so passive that no one receives any serious heat whatsoever. When this happens, the conversation of hunting scum stops and people start discussing far less important matter (such as lynch vs no-lynch, who is what role, figure out who is town because we can't figure out who is scum). Also, passiveness towards active members shifts the heat towards the lurkers, which is the same as wasting a day.
But i do understand where you're coming from, and it is not my intention to stop others from posting.
Also, the reason i mentioned the way you used your previous game was that you had a point you wanted to make and your previous game was not entirely consistent with that point.(luck vs still want a lynch despite low chance of luck).
Agreed. And just to give everyone once and for all my opinion on that (so that we can start scum hunting):
We should definitely try to get a majority for lynching every day. Every no-lynch is a win for scum since they will kill one townie every night. Even if a pure luck based lynch is bad, it's even worse to not lynch at all. (This part is basically what others already said)
Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies.
|
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
|
On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.)
I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch.
On that train of thought, when do you think we need to start panicking? I mean this question for everyone. If we panic too early, we'll vote early and have little information for that vote and also little information for the next vote. If we go to late, we risk a no-lynch, which as (I think) everyone agrees, would not be a good decision. I'm thinking that with about 12 hours left, we should start consolodating for a lynch. Can everybody be fairly active for at least a few posts in the 12 hours leading up to the vote?
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.
|
I hate it that it isn't possible to edit and have people be able to see what was revised.....
EBWOP: Just so everyone knows, I'm going to sleep and then I have a 30 mile bicycle ride in the morning. I may be gone as much as 10-12 hours. I'll try to get something in about 6 hours when I wake up, but I may not be able to if there has been a lot of activity. That being said, I really need the sleep now. 'Night All (except for mafia  )
+ Show Spoiler +I love the Smilies & BBCode section :D
|
Good evening all,
Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now!
Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance.
This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game.
Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release.
+ Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion.
To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L)
I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh.
Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself.
@Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement:
Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it.
|
On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks
Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)?
On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there.
I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that.
On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.
Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then.
|
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times.
|
I would also like to propose that every time somebody writes "walls of text" when he deems them necessary (and only then ofc), he could add a very short tl;dr (even though we should all read it carefully) for easier future references.This could help us expose long zero-content-post and, as well as all further structuring of posts in general. I don't think this is worthy of long discussions though, I'll do it from now on, if you think the same, just do it next time.
Just fluff therefore spoilered:
+ Show Spoiler + I think sciberbia did a somewhat good job structuring his post to make it easier to read. I could clearly get his point, although he repeated his thoughts.
|
@Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read.
I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia.
However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake).
Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post)
TL;DR
1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early.
2. Keep a personal list of reads.
3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly.
4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip.
My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep.
Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable.
|
On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:
I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh.
It seems that we are all in agreement that not lynching today is a bad idea. However, I disagree with the idea that lynching a townie is better than no lynch at all. I will not vote for someone that I have a strong townie read on. I don't think losing a townie and potential role is worth dubious information. Our goal is to lynch scum.
On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it.
As I stated in my post, I went to sleep soon afterwards. I have just woken up, read the thread, and typed out this post. I don't think my absence should be viewed as suspicious since I told you I was going to sleep.
On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
So, it seems that there is some suspicion on me, headed by Release. The main accusation seems to be that I wrote a lot of fluffy text, trying to make it look like I was contributing, while not actually saying much. I guess this is a reasonable accusation, because everyone agrees with everything I said. I just wasn't aware that it was obvious to everyone.
I agree with Miltonkram that we should focus our efforts on scumhunting, but at the beginning of the game, there is obviously not a lot to go on, so my primary goal was to generate discussion, as I stated in my post. Discussion prompts people to post, and this allows us to analyze their posts for reads.
While it seems that we are all in agreement that no-lynch is a very bad idea and that nobody will be roleclaiming on day 1, this was not obvious to me at the time of my post. Mordanis said that his last game started out with a discussion to vote or not. Basically, I did not know that you'd all agree.
The same goes for day 1 roleclaims. In closed setups, day 1 roleclaim can help town, and I didn't know that you'd all agree that roleclaiming is a bad idea. I agree that my hypothetical scenario is a bit confusing, and it is rendered unnecssary by the fact that you all agree not to roleclaim. I did not know you'd agree.
Perhaps in future I will confirm that someone actually disagrees before trying to persuade you, so you don't have to read my "fluff". I'm not trying to claim that I have any brilliant and novel logic or plans. I was just trying to generate discussion and confirm some basic things that will help town, as I stated in my post. At the very least, I think I succeeded in the former goal.
I will be concentrating the rest of my efforts towards finding scum.
P.S. I think hegeo meant he thinks its NOT a good idea to share town reads, a statement with which I agree for the reasons he stated.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now.
|
We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
---snipped---
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion.
Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well?
|
On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies.
"
Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release.
+ Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip.
From Newbie II game
+ Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that.
|
On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.)
I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch.
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet.
|
On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton. ##FOS: Miltonkram
Posting reads on people is a slippery slope. If one of us happens to post a townie read on one of the scum, then they'll know that their play is working fine and can continue to keep playing this way. If this is coupled with a scum read on one of the townies, i could easily see a bandwagon forming.
And this is just a general thing that we all have to do to differentiate townies from scum:
Form your own ideas; doing this allows us to dissect as much scumminess as we can. Do not simply repeat ideas and agree with other people without sufficient reasoning.
You have been warned.
Second, people need to post more. If we don't post more, this gives more opportunities for the scum to hide without taking any heat.
|
On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
Still, we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet.
I'm pretty sure we have 8 + 24 = 32 hours to the deadline. Day phases are 48 hours.
|
Just a quick note (I'm on my phone), but days are 48 hours.
Shiaopi, my filter is small as well, yes. The onus is on both of us to contribute.
|
On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
Excellent point.
On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
I think you misunderstood Milton's point. He is saying that we should focus on who we think is mafia, not on who we think is town. If we all agree that someone is town, that gets us nowhere and just gives mafia an easy kill target.
|
However, MILTON is currently one of my top two scumreads based on his posts:
On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there.
Here is his first post. In his first post, all he basically does is pressure other people to post and also say nothing. He also expresses disdain for lurkers/inactives, which is about the least controversial thing he could do. Seems a bit scummy.
On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
In his second post, he first tries to compliment the most active player at the time. He also tries to support the accusation against me, basically just repeating what Release said.
On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times.
In this post, he continues to try to build suspicion against me, but he just says my post was "a bit suspect". Aside from the fact that before he said he seemed "quite scummy to him", he tries to not take too harsh a stance. Also, his statement to golden is bascially just a rehash of what hegeo said earlier and isn't too controversial.
IN SUMMARY:
I think milton is scummy:
- he hasn't posted a ton but enough not to be lurky
- he tried to pile supsicion on me but was wishy/washy about it
- he isn't sticking his neck out on anything
|
Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it.
Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them:
On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged.
On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet.
b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance.
c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post...
On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this:
On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that.
You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff
On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis
and then, you FOS Sciberibia...
On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia
..before even un##FOSing Mordanis:
On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words:
On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute).
It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information.
|
I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post.
|
EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler +(I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context).
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Since we all agree on lurkers being suspicious, I would suggest taking a closer look on Mufaa. Although we are still in Day and the amount of posts is therefore pretty limited, his filter contains an amazing single post. I am not sure about his timezone but still a single post only?
Maybe I am also biased as he was one of the lurking scum in Newbie Mafia XIII, but he really reminds me of his play in the last game right now...
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
|
Yea, I'd love to hear Mufaa's opinion on anything.
Can I get some opinions on Milton? I really feel like I've got some solid stuff to go on, but so far 3 people have kind of disregarded it completely. If you disagree with my read, please at least say so.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@Sciberbia: The main thing about your suspicions on Milton is that nothing of the tidbits you gathered really struck me as: "well that's scummy"
Since it is Day1 pretty much everyone's postcount is relatively low (although Mufaa really stands out here), your second argument on piling suspicion on you, while being wishy washy about it seems like a typical day 1 accusation/FOS to me. There simply is not enough material for solid cases against others. I believe solid ones will only appear well into the 2nd half of day 1 when there is more information. Not sticking someone's neck out is in my opinion understandable. Although it may be a scum trait it could also be a blue role. In terms of getting people's attention, nobody besides you, has really done something to get everyone on it. So in regards to that everyone would be suspicious.
All in all I think that your case is just not "solid" enough without further information. Let's just wait for Milton's response, as that is something that will give us more info.
|
On May 23 2012 03:00 ShiaoPi wrote:
@Sciberbia: The main thing about your suspicions on Milton is that nothing of the tidbits you gathered really struck me as: "well that's scummy"
Since it is Day1 pretty much everyone's postcount is relatively low ...
In terms of getting people's attention, nobody besides you, has really done something to get everyone on it. So in regards to that everyone would be suspicious.
Well ShiaoPI, I wouldn't say so.
On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
You only stated what several people before you agreed on, also regarding lurkers being a bad thing (I give you the benefit of the doubt here, since it is the first post and my first post was hard for me also).
Several hours later, you also repeat what you said before, focusing Mufaa again. + Show Spoiler +(The point is not that you focus on Mufaa, I agree on that, it's the way you do it)
On May 23 2012 02:43 ShiaoPi wrote:
Since we all agree on lurkers being suspicious,... I would suggest taking a closer look on Mufaa. Although we are still in Day and the amount of posts is therefore pretty limited, his filter contains an amazing single post. I am not sure about his timezone but still a single post only?
Maybe I am also biased as he was one of the lurking scum in Newbie Mafia XIII, but he really reminds me of his play in the last game right now...
Why wouldn't you say "I said it before, and since he didn't post till now,..."? No, you repeat "what others agreed on".
On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
---snipped---
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion. Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well?
This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you.
Zero content is also valid for this post here:
On May 22 2012 23:22 ShiaoPi wrote:
Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now.
You also say that you ...
On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
Just came back from university.
but didn't add something with original content for almost 8 hours ?? (18:47-2:43 KST)
To me, your attitude seem to be of an overall "maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" nature.
This sounded a little different in your post where you stated:
On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
[...]we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
What do you think about my points, ShiaoPI? What do others think?
Synopsis:
ShiaoPi has low content post, states obvious stuff and has vague opinions on others
|
@Sciberbia:
On May 23 2012 02:46 sciberbia wrote:
Yea, I'd love to hear Mufaa's opinion on anything.
Can I get some opinions on Milton? I really feel like I've got some solid stuff to go on, but so far 3 people have kind of disregarded it completely. If you disagree with my read, please at least say so.
Well, at least I agree that I have no great town read on him. The "Hi I'm here why haven't XYZ posted yet" wasn't really helping. Let's see what he produces in the next hours. His "accusations" against you were imo also possible merely due to the fact that you were the first one to post long stuff, it is obvious that you were a nice target for so-so posting players. As ShiaoPi said, not sticking your head out protects you from such stuff, but I'm really happy that you started a real analysis of people's posts.
What is your second scum read (if you don't want to share it yet, np)?
|
First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation.
Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this.
Then he posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:54 hegeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there.
I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then.
Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. On May 23 2012 01:35 hegeo wrote:EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler +(I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context).
I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day. That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful.
|
I have things I want to say about both Mordanis's accusation of hegeo, and hegeo's accusation of shiaopi, but first I want to give Mordanis the chance to talk about hegeo's latest two posts. It's obvious he didn't see them before posting his accusation.
Mordanis, what are your thoughts on hegeo's last two posts?
|
I was actually ignoring them on purpose. He does basically the same thing as before, by sort of calling them out but not saying that he's very suspicious. He seems to be hiding something. He says that he is for action, but he is stalling. As I said earlier, I have a hard time reconciling his behavior with a townie's objectives.
|
On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information.
Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification.
b)
Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario.
c)my answer was this:
"My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip."
From Newbie II game
+ Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that.
this was in support of the above point i made.
Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence.
In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia?
The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture.
"overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum).
I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to:
##Vote: Hegeo
|
|
|
I'm putting a long post together, but for the moment I feel obliged to point out that there are only 2 mafia, Release. Perhaps you should go reread the first page..
|
I will post a analysis of Hegeo's post on ShaoPi as well.
For now, he is focusing on less important aspects of ShaoPi's play than scum/town.
This is not to say i completely disagree and ShaoPi is above suspicion, but Hegeo is far more scummy than ShaoPi is right now.
|
EBWOP: + Show Spoiler +Reading too much Newbie Mafia II. They used a 9-3 setup.
Still my point remains. 2=2. And more people will appear suspicious than will flip scum. I don't see why this would be a scummy idea.
|
Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time! Sorry, I'll try to anwer as fast as I can. Will take a while and I'll have to sleep afterwards.
|
My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo:
Your primary accusation and most tangible peace of evidence is that hegeo's first post was 10 minutes after Milton called out the three people left to post. I don't find this very inciminating. If hegeo was mafia and worried about looking like a lurker, he'd just have posted a fluffy sorta "hi all" first post, similar to Milton, solstice etc. If he's mafia and not that worried about looking like a lurker, why would he panic so much? It just doesn't make much sense to me. If you were mafia, would you watch the thread, wait until someone calls you out as lurking, and then post 10 minutes later? Seems dumb. I see where you're coming from, and I agree it's a bit fishy, but I guess I'm just more willing to believe it's a coincadence than you are. And I liked the actual content of his first post.
Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy.
I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia.
Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi.
Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching.
I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@hegeo:
So you see me as scummy/suspicious?
Let's take a look at your reasoning:
I'll follow the chronological order of your post. So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then.
In your 2nd snippet you take a closer look on my suspicions of Mufaa. I really do not think an issue of semantics is scummy. I also do not phrase it as "What others said" I posted "since we all agree..." If you really want to go into semantics please take note that I am using the plural with myself included, so it is just another way of saying since I and others agree on...."
Going on to the 3rd excerpt:
You state the following:
+ Show Spoiler +This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you.
I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument.
Next snippet is me repsonding to sciberbia regarding my stance on him and as you take it out of context it looks useless. I believe it to have served it's purpose of further clarifying my opinion.
Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it:
"maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait"
Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion).
I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now.
|
@Sciberia
IDK how many games you've played, but this is not a very high level game. It is not even remotely inconceivable that an inexperienced mafia could panic, and then make an excuse for why he acted that way. I also included a fair amount of analysis of his posts, which seemed scummy to me. Compare my post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi. I have one solid fact and a lot of solid analysis. Hegeo just points out that ShiaoPi has a lot of filler content. Usefull information, but not very deep analysis. Also, I was posting that as much to generate discussion as much as to gather support for a lynch. It's early on in the game, but if we don't start throwing some accusations around then we'll be mired in inactivity, while the mafia picks us off one by one. And I don't see anyone you are considering lynching in your post.
About Golden, I played with him in our last game. It's nice to see a familiar face. That's the only reason why. Basic human needs and such.
The last four lines are jumbled between what I said and what other people said. I didn't understand them. If you'd clarify I'd love to comment on them as well.
One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything.
|
@Mordanis
You don't have to jump all over me just because I don't 100% agree with your accusation (which you don't even seem completely convinced of yourself, saying that you were "very willing" to change your mind, and that you accused him for the purpose of generating discussion as much as anything.) I didn't accuse you of anything.. I merely stated my thoughts on hegeo.
On May 23 2012 05:29 Mordanis wrote:
About Golden, I played with him in our last game. It's nice to see a familiar face. That's the only reason why. Basic human needs and such.
I thought about your sentence about Golden a lot and concluded that it means nothing except that you are probably not mafia with Golden. I'm just saying it caught my attention as well.
On May 23 2012 05:29 Mordanis wrote:
The last four lines are jumbled between what I said and what other people said. I didn't understand them. If you'd clarify I'd love to comment on them as well.
- you stated in your post that hegeo was not helping to scumhunt, but he had just accused shiaopi. Was just pointing that out.
- i'm not convinced hegeo is mafia, nor am i convinced he is town. So, I'd be willing to vote for him, but I think we have better options
- I encourage other people to post
On May 23 2012 05:29 Mordanis wrote:
One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything.
I don't see how I was being passive-agressive, unless you mean the fact that I'm undecided about hegeo. I'm not angry at anybody. Maybe you weren't talking to me? And I don't see what being angry at one person has to do with being passive-aggressive.
On May 23 2012 05:29 Mordanis wrote:
And I don't see anyone you are considering lynching in your post.
You don't have to be so defensive. Just because I don't agree with you on hegeo doesn't mean I think you're mafia. I've already accused milton and I have one other scum suspect that I'll probably not bring up until tomorrow.
What does everyone else think about hegeo???
So far, the three people that are going for his throat are the three people that he has criticized: Mordanis (at the beginning), Release (a few hours ago), and Shiaopi (just now). Personally, I'm not convinced, and I think these three might be a bit biased. I think we need everyone else (solstice, mufaa, milton, golden) to give their opinion's on hegeo. I also wouldn't mind comments on milton or shiaopi.
|
@Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker.
@Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote.
One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything.
This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play.
@Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours.
c u soon
|
Sciberbia- I don't really see a whole lot wrong with what I've posted. Everything I've written, including my suspicions of you, was with the goal to generate discussion. With that being said, admittedly I wasn't active at scumhunting because of the lack of information to work from.
With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@Sciberbia
I am going for hegeo's throat? Where? I merely defended myself. I am still intent on getting something out off Mufaa for now, as his lurkiness is just intolerable.
|
@ShiaoPi
My apologies - I didn't thoroughly read your post before responding to Mordanis's post which was directed at me, and I guess I just assumed you'd accuse him back lol.
So, what are your thoughts on hegeo then?
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now.
What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that.
Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all.
|
sciberbia, you asked for opinions on your read for Miltonkram. I've read your argument, and his filter; your points don't outright damn him, but I think you are right to be a little suspicious. I won't rehash your argument, but I will add something. He says he will apply pressure when the lurkers/inactives are well established. I think it's clear now that Mufaa is the most lurktastic, followed by Milton himself. We are still waiting for his promised contribution....unless his contribution was this:
On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
As pressure goes, that's pretty weaksauce. You'll have to do more, Miltonkram, if you expect us to believe you are working in the town's best interest. If you filter stays as it is now as we approach vote time tomorrow, I'll be leaning strongly towards you.
ShiaoPi, hegeo has made a case against you and I want to add to it. I called you out, and you said this:
On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote:
Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well?
Discrediting your accuser instead of addressing the accusation smacks of fear. What's with the knee-jerk? You could have easily just said something like 'my small filter will be a short lived problem as I plan to contribute more soon.'
What's more, I even put the spotlight on the two of us after our exchange, and before leaving the thread for a few hours:
On May 23 2012 00:45 s0Lstice wrote:
Just a quick note (I'm on my phone), but days are 48 hours.
Shiaopi, my filter is small as well, yes. The onus is on both of us to contribute.
...and your contributions since then are what? Mainly defense, and a half-baked (see:one game) meta argument on Mufaa, where you yourself admit that you may be biased.
|
Alright, I've got a case that I think has some merit.
s0Lstice
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram
Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts:
I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post.
My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes.
##FOS: s0Lstice
|
On May 23 2012 06:39 ShiaoPi wrote:I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. ) Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all.
Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read. Admittedly, he isn't the perfect case for scum, but my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie. Also, the case against Milton is pretty weak (even though he can't match what malt can do to justify God's ways to man). Solstice seems inactive, but I don't think there's been a very solid case on him. I can't even think of anyone else who has a group of people actively being suspicious of. Honestly, they're all sort of decent candidates for a D1 lynch, but I don't see nearly as much of an argument for the others as for Hegeo. Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people. This may go back to my being burned by protecting mafia, but I think it will be best for everyone to post their own thoughts on matters rather than explicitly rebuting an accusation.
|
@ Accusations by Mordanis
I will answer as short as I can, but I also want to show you what I think of Mordanis' "claims"
If anyone wants me to clarify my opinion on anything, please tell me (maybe Mordanis and release, could you spoiler longer posts, I think it would be easier for others to follow the discussion). I don't want this to be solely a direct answer to Mordanis. I would like everybody else to get an opinion on my agenda, therefore I added some questions. + Show Spoiler +Everything spoilered to make it easier for all to read and re-read. I repeat: WALLS OF TEXT ARE BAD FOR TOWN, WHEN UNSTRUCTURED. I saw at least 3 people follow my example. So I'm not the only one.
Mordanis calls me out on posting directly after Miltonkram
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote:
First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation.
I don't get it: You say release was too agressive but after he stopped there was a "community of trust" till now that you (two) come back? Later on in your post you state "Do you see the passive aggressiveness?" when talking about me. I didn't trust anybody in the last hours, and tried to point out inconsistencies, without ever blatantly calling somebody scum for it.
Mordanis calls me out on posting as a "knee-jerk reaction" directly after Miltonkrams first post
+ Show Spoiler +Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. This is basically what you said before (yes, you stated it). You didn't add anything (NO additional content). I answered you directly after you asked me why I posted and explained what happened. Do others think a knee-jerk reaction is the "most obvious explanation"?And if this is of such importance for you, Mordanis: + Show Spoiler +It was 9:16AM when I posted my first thoughts on a post from 8:50AM (by release, which is 15:50 KST here), and I loaded the thread no later than 15:41 (I can't remember seeing his addenda). Since I was rereading what he said, highlighted stuff etc. in his post and since it was my first post, I was really careful with my wording. I don't see a problem there, maybe you still see it. If this is everything you have there, ok.
Mordanis again on my first post and my questions to him
+ Show Spoiler +Show nested quote + My (hegeo's) post): On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there.
I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. This is right after I first state my misgivings about his timing. Do you see the passive aggressiveness? He defends himself in a strange way. He says virtually nothing save a small excuse for the the timing of his post. I hope I answered you question already. You still just repeat what you said before. And I see no passive aggressiveness here (not in my explanation for the time of my post, maybe you meant my first statement that you mention later?). And I want to ask the others: What do other think about Mondalis' judgement here? First statement is the most absurdly WIFOM I've ever seen. It was hilariously passive aggressive. Second statement was just agreement with someone else (which he stated), and the third was basically just an excuse. I have a hard time reconciling his behavior with being town. Yep, my first statement was really not that great, it was bad to be honest with you, But still, it made you answer, and Golden already answered it before in a less condescending way. And all that while you say you saw "too much House" to still believe in coincidences I might add.
On my post with thoughts about releases way of playing
+ Show Spoiler +Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. He praises Sciberia for "bringing the heat", and then spends the rest of the post explaining why Release's play has been suboptimal. I didn't praise, I was happy. At that time, there was not to much cross-analysis between posts, and since I realized that I wasn't the first one to start (I refreshed the thread before I posted, yeah!) I wanted to mention it. On release: I stated my opinion on, as I put it "why I think you're not always helping town with [your style of posting]". I don't see what's wrong with that. So why didn't you tell me what you thought about my post regarding ShiaoPi, and what I had to say about Sciberbias analysis on Miltonkram?
On me, and that I "outright chasten[..] Release"
+ Show Spoiler + In his next post, he even outright chastens Release: Show nested quote +EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping Sorry, did I quoted you wrong here? You said: On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote:
Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention.
I just wanted to point out that I didn't want to repeat what you said. Do others think I quoted him wrong and do you think I did it in a dismissive way, hence "chastening" release?
Mordanis says I post "shallow analysis", calls my activities "suspicious" again
+ Show Spoiler + I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish. He has only posted shallow analysis in which he deflects attention from himself. He hasn't really helped at all in the scum-hunt. He has very suspicious activities. So what new points did you bring up? That one of my points "against" you was ridiculous, which I admitted? That you don't like the way I post?
I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day.That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful.
You repeat what you say in the very beginning. I still don't understand, why you call me scum that "chastenes Release" is "passive aggressive", nevertheless interpret the current situation "too trusting". I don't "trust" you to be town, still, I don't think you're scum either (although there are many points in the post I'm answering trying to answer that look as if you wanted to persuade other players without real evidence, I leave that to the other players).
-----------
But really Mordanis, what kind of "culture of discussion" is it, when you just say, asked by Sciberbia what you think of my posts on e.g. ShiaoPi :
On May 23 2012 04:35 Mordanis wrote:
I was actually ignoring them on purpose.
/Out of game: + Show Spoiler +This is just sad. So why are you playing then? Call my posts bad or whatever, but please read them. /Back in game
-----------
What I tried to do in the last 13 hours:
+ Show Spoiler +1. Post original content as good as I can, analyses (good or bad, everyone can judge themselves)
2. Try to make my posts as transparent as possible (proposing tl;drs for easier reference, spoilered fluff, mentioned when I just repeated stuff)
3. Tried to NOT do this "'#FOS, XY is scum, I'm watching you" stuff since I don' feel the need to show everybody I'm having thoughts on things.
4. Tried to make sure that I ask people on their opinion/pressured them and was interested in THEIR opinion and explanations why they posted what they did when I wasn't sure.
5. Asked other people on wether they agree with me or not to promote discussions
6. Tried to cooperate with others that seemed interested in discussing (namely Sciberbia in the last hours)
7. Was the first to say that although scum reads should be actively discussed, we shouldn't mention strong town reads to make sure mafia can't profit.
Now I will try to quickly answer release (then I have to sleep for at least 8 hours. Don't expect me to post or whatever.)
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 23 2012 06:40 s0Lstice wrote:---snipped---- ShiaoPi, hegeo has made a case against you and I want to add to it. I called you out, and you said this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote:
Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? Discrediting your accuser instead of addressing the accusation smacks of fear. What's with the knee-jerk? You could have easily just said something like 'my small filter will be a short lived problem as I plan to contribute more soon.' What's more, I even put the spotlight on the two of us after our exchange, and before leaving the thread for a few hours: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:45 s0Lstice wrote:
Just a quick note (I'm on my phone), but days are 48 hours.
Shiaopi, my filter is small as well, yes. The onus is on both of us to contribute. ...and your contributions since then are what? Mainly defense, and a half-baked (see:one game) meta argument on Mufaa, where you yourself admit that you may be biased.
Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo: + Show Spoiler +I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument.
I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it.
As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa).
Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you.
|
Ah this time is the best, the thread is really active.
Milton, in response to your suspicions of me:
I based it on what amounted to a reading comprehension fail. As it seems to be the basis for your suspicion against me, I'll try to clarify. Here is my brief explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:32 s0Lstice wrote:
I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post.
And here is your quote, for reference:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times.
You said we shouldn't post reads on a person when the result of the read is town. I see the logic behind this argument and wouldn't have taken issue with it. I read it as: none of us townies should be posting reads of any sort, as it is giving scummies information they dont have. I think you'd agree that there is no town motivation for saying such a thing?
I agree that it appears flighty to ##FOS and un##FOS on you like I did, but the error was pointed out to me and I owned up to it.
Regarding your second point, I removed my FOS because the pressure stopped existing, as I was the only one pressuring you at the time. Sciberbia posted his case against you before I hit submit (I usually do a refresh before posting, and my post was sitting there on screen for awhile thanks to a busy day at the office!), and I knew I should address it as it was particularly cogent. I promised to have a look at your filter again following my gaffe to get a fresh read, and to comment on sciberbia's case. If you look you'll see I did as I promised.
|
@ShiaoPi
On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:
@hegeo:
So you see me as scummy/suspicious?
No, I merely asked you to comment (believe me or not, maybe my wording was too harsh), since in comparison there was really not to much original content. Now you post a defense which I can agree on for the time being.
Let's take a look at your reasoning:
I'll follow the chronological order of your post. So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then.
You are right, I have no "problem" with it, but I expect anybody to analyze other players' behaviour (look at how people are starting to argue). I also stated (to quote my post: "I give you the benefit of the doubt here, since it is the first post and my first post was hard for me also")
+ Show Spoiler +Going on to the 3rd excerpt: You state the following: + Show Spoiler +This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you. I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument.
It's was basically to see how you react. I see nothing fishy in your response atm. Mordanis called me out for posting 10 mins after Miltonkram, this is allowed and good for town if things get clarified. I asked you directly and today and didn't bring it up 3hrs before deadline, so that you have time to discuss about it.
Next snippet is me repsonding to sciberbia regarding my stance on him and as you take it out of context it looks useless. I believe it to have served it's purpose of further clarifying my opinion.
Reread it, you are right. My apologies.
Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion).
Agreed. I just figured that we don't want unclear reads and too many lurkers before deadline. With this post here, you clearly did more Mufaa ever did in the thread, That was unclear for me before, and surely also for others.
And I just saw your answer to Sciberbia: I don't think you're going at my throat. And please also try asking me when something I do is fishy to you. There is no scum hiding (perhaps a newbie player though) in my posts, and I'm willing to show that to you.
|
Wow, so much anger. This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned passive-aggressive behavior. You basically call me an ass the entire time, your tone is angry to the point of hatred, and yet there is no accusation against me. If you think I'm town, then calmly and rationally explain why you are (claim to be) innocent. If you think I'm scum, explain why (you claim) 1:why you're innocent, and 2:Why I'm scum. I apologize if I've come off as mean, but you need to calm down. Hopefully its just a bit of sleep deprivation ^^
Anyways, I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. Hopefully that'll make the quality go up a few notches.
|
On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.
|
ShiaoPi
Notice that all I've done is apply pressure. I've never claimed that a small filter is a scum guarantee. Being relatively quiet is plenty of reason to pressure you, just as it is plenty of reason to pressure me. You've responded with gusto, and that's good for everybody, as we have more to go on. I still don't buy your explanation for why you didn't address my accusation. The fact remains that you attacked instead of explained. You wanting to throw the ball my way is fine, but doing so in lieu of a defense to pretty weak pressure (based on filter size, which I agree with you is weak) is scummy. As such I still suspect you.
You wonder why I don't focus on him (Mufaa). Everybody is suspicious of him, me saying so serves no purpose. We know already his name will probably come up for lynch tomorrow because lurkers are at best useless and at worst dangerous.
|
On May 23 2012 05:14 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo: Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy.
I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia.
Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi.
Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching.
I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations.
Talk about filler. You had filler before and now more filler. This is purely WIFOM and does not help the town one bit. And the length of this WIFOM is absurd too. Wasting the townies' time.
Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.
##FOS: Sciberia
I haven't read the subsequent posts yet but i need to make this heard.
|
I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes.
On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo:
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it.
As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa).
Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you.
At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content.
Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy.
@ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi.
##unFOS: s0Lstice
##FOS: ShiaoPi
|
Hegeo, respond to my previous post about you. The longer you wait, the more scummy you appear.
|
@ releases answer to my questions
+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion. I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post: First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people. Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information.
+ Show Spoiler +Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification.
I agree. At that time, I wanted to point out that I found it slightly irritating, that you would try to pressure people before seeing a considerable amount of players posting their thoughts and directly tried to pressure a post that I read pro-town. Mordanis critizised you for that also, not only me.
b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. + Show Spoiler + The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario.
I said that it is not ideal to lynch lurkers. At the time I wrote that, 3 or more players didn't contribute anything (or not much). Still at this very moment, Mufaa hasn't written anything but "hello" basically. So we can't just let him stay in the game when he lurks in this extreme fashion. Do you agree on that?
-------
+ Show Spoiler +c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence.
I misquoted you there, as you can see in your original post the text was somewhat strangely formatted, and part of the quote was displayed in normal fontsize so I misinterpreted it, your post makes more sense now, I apologize.
-------
+ Show Spoiler +In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia?
The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture.
Why don't you acknowledge that we (not only me but also e.g. Sciberbia) also tried to do the same that you say you tried, namely illuminate places where scum could hide? I called you, Mordanis, ShiaoPi (did I forget somebody?) out because of things that I was interested in, all of you answered and I tried to answer to your posts as well as I could.
-------
+ Show Spoiler +"overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum).
Please also try to quote correctly. I said: It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. I don't see anything wrong with my point here, I just wanted to make you aware of that.
-----
I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to:
##Vote: Hegeo
So, I replied.
In my answer to Mordanis, I added a spoilered paragraph stating what I think I contributed today (again, newbie here). I hope to read new input tomorrow morning, especially from Mufaa.
|
On May 23 2012 07:59 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 05:14 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo: Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy.
I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia.
Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi.
Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching.
I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations. Talk about filler. You had filler before and now more filler. This is purely WIFOM and does not help the town one bit. And the length of this WIFOM is absurd too. Wasting the townies' time. ##FOS: Sciberia
I disagree that my thoughts on the "coincidence debacle" is purely WIFOM. Mordanis's argument was that hegeo made a knee-jerk reaction. A knee-jerk reaction wouldn't be WIFOM. I was stating that I'm skeptical that hegeo would panic so much. I'm gathering that it is frowned upon whenever I elaborate my thoughts too much, but I don't really see how this hurts town. I'm not just providing filler - I think I've already posted enough that I'm not going to be accused of lurking, so I don't see what mafia motive I could have for defending hegeo as I did. Whereas I do have a town motive: trying to decide on our best lynch target.
And if you decide to unFOS me, please remember to do it twice, because I don't believe you ever removed your last FOS on me. That would be great :D
I will be inactive for the next 17 hours or so due to studying, sleep, and a final. On the upside, I'll be able to be very active for the last 6 hours before the deadline.
I think we should start figuring out who are our realistic lynch candidates for tomorrow. And MUFAA will you please contribute?
|
On me, and that I "outright chasten[..] Release"+ Show Spoiler + In his next post, he even outright chastens Release: Show nested quote +EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping Sorry, did I quoted you wrong here? You said: On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote:
Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention.
I just wanted to point out that I didn't want to repeat what you said. Do others think I quoted him wrong and do you think I did it in a dismissive way, hence "chastening" release?
Wtf is this shit? So you say that you think my aggressiveness isn't helping. Fair comment. But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened.
I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.
And i will repeat myself:
The longer you wait to respond to my post On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now.
|
EBWOP: didn't see your response as i was posting this. Ignore the last bolded section
|
Also, I think it's time we light a fire under Mufaa to get him posting.
@ Mufaa- If you want me to change my vote for you, you better get in here and start posting. It's really hard to have good town play if even one person is lurking.
##Vote: Mufaa
This is something I think everyone should keep in mind. We only have one player who is hardcore lurking. That means we have at least one mafia who is staying fairly active in the thread. I need some more time to think this line of thought through (What kind of active town benefits a mafia? What can we do to prevent that kind of town from happening?), but it's good to keep in mind when reading through a player's filter.
|
On May 23 2012 08:29 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:59 Release wrote:On May 23 2012 05:14 sciberbia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo: Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy.
I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia.
Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi.
Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching.
I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations. Talk about filler. You had filler before and now more filler. This is purely WIFOM and does not help the town one bit. And the length of this WIFOM is absurd too. Wasting the townies' time. ##FOS: Sciberia I disagree that my thoughts on the "coincidence debacle" is purely WIFOM. Mordanis's argument was that hegeo made a knee-jerk reaction. A knee-jerk reaction wouldn't be WIFOM. I was stating that I'm skeptical that hegeo would panic so much. I'm gathering that it is frowned upon whenever I elaborate my thoughts too much, but I don't really see how this hurts town. I'm not just providing filler - I think I've already posted enough that I'm not going to be accused of lurking, so I don't see what mafia motive I could have for defending hegeo as I did. Whereas I do have a town motive: trying to decide on our best lynch target. And if you decide to unFOS me, please remember to do it twice, because I don't believe you ever removed your last FOS on me. That would be great :D I will be inactive for the next 17 hours or so due to studying, sleep, and a final. On the upside, I'll be able to be very active for the last 6 hours before the deadline.I think we should start figuring out who are our realistic lynch candidates for tomorrow. And MUFAA will you please contribute?
The first part i'm not too unhappy about. It IS still a WIFOM thing, but their is analysis and reasoning. But what is the point of the second (hypothetical) part of that post?
It does seem dumb... therefore i'll do it to confuse the others... but they'll have thought of that... but ... but
See how this is WIFOM? It doesn't help.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@solstice:
If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion.
On another note you have not answered my other question, regarding you tunneling me all the time when your argumentation which you base it on (contribution, filter size) also fits others.
Let's take a look at your post: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram
I am one of the several people you call out. As you share them in the thread I would believe it safe to assume that these were (or maybe still are) your main suspects. The one thing that you combined with calling me out was filter size and my opinion on sciberbia. After I explained my stance on sciberbia all you had to work with was filtersize and my reaction.
My reaction was explaining my opinion on sciberbia and an attack on you. You continue to ignore my explaination and just go on about my attack on you.
Conclusively, you seem to base your pressure on me by randomness of grabbing the name of the first person who did not post much until then and could be an easy way to seemingly contribute.
I quote you now:
+ Show Spoiler +Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
Keep that in mind as I quote your latest post:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:59 s0Lstice wrote:
ShiaoPi
Notice that all I've done is apply pressure. I've never claimed that a small filter is a scum guarantee. Being relatively quiet is plenty of reason to pressure you, just as it is plenty of reason to pressure me. You've responded with gusto, and that's good for everybody, as we have more to go on. I still don't buy your explanation for why you didn't address my accusation. The fact remains that you attacked instead of explained. You wanting to throw the ball my way is fine, but doing so in lieu of a defense to pretty weak pressure (based on filter size, which I agree with you is weak) is scummy. As such I still suspect you.
You wonder why I don't focus on him (Mufaa). Everybody is suspicious of him, me saying so serves no purpose. We know already his name will probably come up for lynch tomorrow because lurkers are at best useless and at worst dangerous.
This raises the following question: Why do you call out somebody, if you are not convinced by your own argumentation? To me it seems like you are trying to appear town as you try to build a case on somebody.
##FOS: s0lstice
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
EBWOP: Just saw Milton's post. Gonna respond to it now
|
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:27 hegeo wrote:@ releases answer to my questions + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion. I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post: First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people. Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification.
I agree. At that time, I wanted to point out that I found it slightly irritating, that you would try to pressure people before seeing a considerable amount of players posting their thoughts and directly tried to pressure a post that I read pro-town. Mordanis critizised you for that also, not only me. Show nested quote +b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. + Show Spoiler + The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. I said that it is not ideal to lynch lurkers. At the time I wrote that, 3 or more players didn't contribute anything (or not much). Still at this very moment, Mufaa hasn't written anything but "hello" basically. So we can't just let him stay in the game when he lurks in this extreme fashion. Do you agree on that? ------- + Show Spoiler +c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. I misquoted you there, as you can see in your original post the text was somewhat strangely formatted, and part of the quote was displayed in normal fontsize so I misinterpreted it, your post makes more sense now, I apologize. ------- + Show Spoiler +In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia?
The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. and I tried to answer to your posts as well as I could. ------- + Show Spoiler +"overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). Please also try to quote correctly. I said: It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. I don't see anything wrong with my point here, I just wanted to make you aware of that. ----- So, I replied. In my answer to Mordanis, I added a spoilered paragraph stating what I think I contributed today (again, newbie here). I hope to read new input tomorrow morning, especially from Mufaa.
You pointed my aggression out way too late. By then, i had already stopped the ridiculous amount of pressure i was spreading. Looked like you just wanted to copy his argue so as to appear like a townie.
I do not agree with lynching Mufaa yet. Your case still appears far worse.
"Why don't you acknowledge that we (not only me but also e.g. Sciberbia) also tried to do the same that you say you tried, namely illuminate places where scum could hide? I called you, Mordanis, ShiaoPi (did I forget somebody?) out because of things that I was interested in, all of you answered and I tried to answer to your posts as well as I could."
-Hegeo
Alright then, if you claim to be doing the same thing that i have done, why criticize me for it? If you're going to criticize me, then criticize yourself too. You're acting very much like a hypocrite here. Your responses have been poor at best.
"I said: It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. I don't see anything wrong with my point here, I just wanted to make you aware of that. " - Hegeo
That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard. I've posted my analysis on your case, Sciberia's case, and whomever else i targeted. The FOS's came to discussion as i've already mentioned. You, on the other hand, had a lot of filler and Bull against ShiaoPi.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes.
-snipped-
At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content.
If you do quote parts of my defense please make sure that you quote the entire picture. Take a look at my post in response to hegeo: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:-snipped- Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it:
"maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait"
Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion).
I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now.
I bolded my explainations regarding content etc. Furthermore I would have assumed that it is content that I am explaining why and how I posted the things, so please point out my defense, which "lacks content".
Furthermore I focused my defense on the "knee-jerk" as most people seem to be much more concerned with that than what you perceive as lack of content. I am also calling out people in my posts since that is in fact content. Maybe it is not as nicely formatted and phrased as it would be if I did not have to permanently defend myself, but do take your time to read my posts thoroughly. There is content.
On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish?
That "list" was not supposed to accomplish something. Take a look at it in the context I have put it into. It simply serves as a way to reveal the contradiction that I have already pointed out in solstice's posts. I have not made that list with the caption: HERE IS MY CONTRIBUTION!
If you want to point out weird spots in my posts make sure you do it within their context and not just out of the blue.
On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy.
Again I have already given my reasoning on day 1 play reread my filter and you should be able to see it. I am currently gunning for Mufaa and s0lstice. Mufaa for hardcorelurking and bad experience in newbie mafia XIII, while I have elaborated on s0lstice in my post before.
On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
@ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi.
##unFOS: s0Lstice
##FOS: ShiaoPi
Hopefully that should have been enough to convince you. I am going to bed now, so don't fret over my sudden lack of activity.
|
ShiaoPi,
Gonna go through this in detail.
On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
--snipped
@solstice:
If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion.
You are correct that at the time of that post, the main thrust was that you accused and then backed off sciberbia. This combined with your lack of other input was enough for me to call you out. Your filter size was just supporting information. It was a fact, and I put it there as additional incentive/pressure to get you talking. You've said yourself:
On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
--snip
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
That was basically what I was after. You can agree that pointing out your lack of input applies additional pressure yes? It's simple. If I say "Hey you why aren't you posting?!," all you had to do was contribute and then *poof* the pressure disappears. You say also that I ignored your explanation on backing off of sciberbia. This is half true, as I had accepted it and moved on, but did not explicitly say so. I assumed this was clear in my further accusations of you which made no mention of it.
On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
On another note you have not answered my other question, regarding you tunneling me all the time when your argumentation which you base it on (contribution, filter size) also fits others.
My argument hasn't been based on the size of your filter since that very first post I made referencing you. You want to know why I am still picking on you?
On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
After I explained my stance on sciberbia all you had to work with was filtersize and my reaction.
My reaction was explaining my opinion on sciberbia and an attack on you. You continue to ignore my explaination and just go on about my attack on you.
I'll repeat: it's because your defense was to attack me and take the focus off of yourself. My filter size was, and always will be, a separate and unrelated issueto yours. I think you panicked when I pressured you for little content and a wishy-washy accusation of sciberbia, and I wasn't pressuring all that hard. The intent was to get you talking. What I'm doing now is hard pressure, because you keep scummy squirming with the spotlight on you.
I obviously have not forgotten my other reads. You'll hear more from me. You, however...
##FOS:ShiaoPi
|
Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide:
Which case is more important:
The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case? Whichever we decide on is the one where all of our votes should go. This brings me to my next point: We need to start voting. Pointing fingers is nice and all but we have to get down to business. One vote is worth a million fingers.
And finally, Mufaa and GoldenNe, where are you guys? Start posting more. After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure if the post quality * quantity is not improving. Especially Mufaa.
|
Good morning everyone!
Not too many new posts in the last hours, especially not from Mufaa:
On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. ...
Sorry Mufaa, but you didn't post anything at all in 28 hours. Please get active.
##Vote: Mufaa
|
On May 23 2012 14:52 hegeo wrote:Good morning everyone! Not too many new posts in the last hours, especially not from Mufaa: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote:On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. ... Sorry Mufaa, but you didn't post anything at all in 28 hours. Please get active. ##Vote: Mufaa
I think the post you quoted is too vague to support what you are doing (voting). Although the Mafia won, he could mean ruined as in the game itself was going nowhere and/or just no fun whatsoever. Also, you should really post a solid case on why you want to vote someone. Day1 Lurker lynching when we have 2 active cases against scummy players going on is crying out "scum."
To Solstice/Milton/ShiaoPI, i recognize that your case against each other is important, but i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched. So i ask that you keep building your cases against each other, but place a vote on Hegeo.
|
Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.
|
Hegeo, I have a few comments for you. First off, my comments about your seeming passive-aggressive wer not in and of themselves an accusation of scumminess. I was merely pointing out that it doesn't help anyone to have everyone going for someone else's throat. There's no need to get mean in a game like this. Also, I apologize about my wording of "I don't care". I did not mean to say that I don't care about what you are doing or that I can't be bothered to actually look at what you write, it was just that what you posted was not clear evidence of town-ness. I recognize that I may have been overly condescending, and I will try to be more courteous in the future (because it makes the game more fun and a rational discussion benefits town.)
Also, a perfectly formatted wall of text may be easier to pay attention to, but the actual content is the most important thing. Reading comprehension is important in Mafia. That being said, it is possible to disguise a lack of content with novels of empty language. I haven't seen anything like that so far though.
And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal. I think you should try to explain your innocence. Right now, you're looking like the most scummy player by far. You still might have time to derail the coming train of lynch votes, but you'll need to do a damn good job at this point to convince me or (I think) anyone. Personally I have a particularly difficult time viewing your emotional play as pro-town. That being said, I also have a problem with letting someone who posts once in the first day off the hook. At what point do we take action? If we always say that lynching the better read is the best option, mafia could post once a day and win ezpz. IDK if we need to send the message today or not, but I'm worried.
+ Show Spoiler [On emotion] +Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.
|
Well, I'm going to have to bow out for the night. I'm not sure if we'll be able to start a movement of people into voting for one person if we wait too long. As it stands, I think the strongest case is the one against Hegeo, and I have to go to bed and then get a haircut in the morning, so I have no idea how long it'll be until I can participate again (probably fewer than 10 hours, so I'll be back 5-6 hours befor the deadline hopefully). I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for.
##Vote: hegeo
|
@Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment.
|
I want to post a few of my reads so far in the public arena, hopefully my separation from todays events will give me a different perspective and perhaps help in focusing from the 4 or so cases down to a smaller number.
1. Mufaa.
Obviously useless. I'm more than happy to give him the boot, however before we do i'd like to look into some other avenues of lynching because if he keeps up his current style and fails to post a vote before the day is out he will be modkilled. Why waste a lynch on someone who is most likely to get killed by moderators! haha. That being said if he posts intermittently just to hang into the game. then we instantly should usher him from the game as it's fairly obvious he's just hanging around to get his Mafia night kills in.
2. Miltonkram (open his filter in another window for this, it should be easy to follow and not too long.)
Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on.
next.
he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi).
next.
he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy.
3. Hegeo
I pretty much agree with Mordanis on this player, but i will reserve voting.
4. ShiaoPi
This player has been very defensive the whole game. It's hard to get a read from someone when they are being defensive. He does a good job of trying to avert suspicion from him. The problem with defensive play is that you start to get suspicious of the person accusing you.
Thoughts & Comments
Obviously i need to read a little more into the other players but these are some i have focussed on so far. Miltonkram sticks out to me the most out of the non-lurkers however.
I urge everyone, both people being defensive and offensive. To have a re-read over the person they are accusing/defending and try to see their other posts that arent aimed to you. Perhaps you will get a bit more insight into their position as remember there is 7 of us trying to figure this out!
##FOS Miltonkram
|
@ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking.
First you stated about me:
Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on.
The intention of my posts was to generate pressure and discussion. This being my first game, I felt that things such as the list I made and the pressure on sciberbia would be viewed as more threatening than they were actually taken. I believe s0Lstice used the term "weaksauce" to describe them, and looking back, I'm going to have to agree with him. In short, I think you're making a big deal out of some town play of mine that was admittedly less than stellar.
The next part of your post states:
he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi).
This next part is actually kind of funny, it was a reading comprehension error on my part, a reading comprehension error of his reading comprehension error. I thought it was crazy how flimsy his FOS was, I feel a bit stupid now that I realize what he was saying. Essentially, I did the exact same thing to him that he did to me.
As for the last part of your post towards me:
he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy.
I want you to know that I am still gunning for ShiaoPi. I hope we don't have to lynch Mufaa, but he needs to know that my vote for him will stand until he starts posting or I think he'll get modkilled/replaced. Right now, I'm going to continue pressuring ShiaoPi. Even if we don't lynch him today, our late game will be much better if we can get him to post something other than his wishy-washy defensive play.
|
I've gotta go take a final, but I have a few minutes so I want to give you all my thoughts on lynch candidates before all the votes start pouring in.
Milton: seems scummiest to me. I think Golden's analysis was pretty good. Seriously, just read his filter. As of now, he is my top choice for lynch.
Hegeo: Since yesterday, I've grown a bit more suspicious of him. Don't think he'd be a terrible lynch but I'd rather lynch Milton.
Shiaopi: I was extremely suspicious of him at first, but he is gaining my trust somewhat. I'd rather not lynch him today, but would vote for him if the alternative was no-lynch.
Mufaa: I just have a feeling that we shouldn't lynch mufaa. I read through the mafia QT for the last game he played, and he was actually extremely strategic about his lurking. And after the first couple days, he started to post a lot. I don't think being the only hardcore lurker is a winning mafia strat. I think it's more likely he either lost interest or is busy or something.
It's obvious to me that those people under suspicion will push for a Mufaa lynch, just because they view him as an easy lynch and not too controversial. I'm not really going to hold it against you for pushing Mufaa, but let's face it (sorry for the hypothetical Release), if mufaa isn't mafia, who do the mafia have a really easy time getting mislynched?
Got to go. I'll be back in 6 hours or so. I'd like everyone to consider voting for Milton.
|
@ShaoPi your #FOS of s0lstice seems to be more in retaliation to his argument against you that of any solid evidence.
That being said.
@s0lstice, i can't see any reason why you're going for ShaoPi.
both of you seem to be tunnelling eachother for knee-jerk voting the other. could each of you please write in dot points your arguments. I just need a simplified summary of your cases as i'm having trouble following them.
@Miltonkram. Thank you for your swift reply. I understand that you can now see the holes in your play and it looks like you're ready to get into the swing of posting a bit more content. To get that started.. can you clarify your stance on ShaoPi for me in dot points also.
i'm still waiting to see the community's response to my post on you and i'd like some discussion before i remove or act on my #FOS. your comments have been noted.
|
I'm liking that concise post sciberbia. Goodluck in exam.
On May 23 2012 19:13 sciberbia wrote:
It's obvious to me that those people under suspicion will push for a Mufaa lynch, just because they view him as an easy lynch and not too controversial. I'm not really going to hold it against you for pushing Mufaa, but let's face it (sorry for the hypothetical Release), if mufaa isn't mafia, who do the mafia have a really easy time getting mislynched?
I agree with this point.
Mufaa is a very easy option for us to lynch day one.
Consider that he may be used as an escape option for the Mafia in day one. I personally think he will be modkilled.
If Mufaa isn't modkilled i'll be super suspicious of him. BECAUSE, the only thing that can him from a modkill is a vote.
Lurking that hard, followed by a vote is good grounds for a vig snipe or a day 2 lynch.
I'm out for while.
|
I haven't yet finished my analysis of ShiaoPi's behavior, but I've got some groundwork laid. Right now, he's my number one scumread. I'll post again after I get some rest and have my full accusations put together.
|
Golden,
My suspicion against ShiaoPi comes from his reaction to my initial accusation. You say that we are knee-jerk voting for eachother, but be mindful of the fact that it started with my initial pressure. His response, as I see it, was to try to discredit me instead of addressing the accusation. It escalated from there, but it started with him overreacting to my pressure, and this seemed suspicious to me.
As far as tunneling on eachother, I think you are right. As we are getting close to lynch time, I will be spending my time looking at the other cases in depth (as I said in my last post). My filter is full of my feelings on ShiaoPi for others to consider for themselves, and our recent exchanges have reinforced my initial suspicions, but nothing really new has been added.
Stay tuned, I'm at work so the interruptions are frequent.
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
Current Vote Count:
hegeo (2): Release, Mordanis
Mufaa (2): Miltonkram, hegeo
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Voting ends in 10 hours. Yet to vote: Mufaa, Solstice, sciberbia, O.golden_ne, ShiaoPi.
Current FoS Count:
Many. I don't really count these obviously.
|
Up to this point, i think that the scum has distracted us very well. You will see that we have two cases:
Hegeo/Me/Mordanis/sciberia and solstice/golden/milton/shiaoPi. I am inclined to believing that dividing our attention has been the Mafia's strat all along because as it stands, we are likely to get 2 people with 3 votes each, 2 people with 1 vote each, and then Mufaa's vote. Regardless of how Mufaa votes, we don't get a lynch.
I have to admit guilt: Up until this point, i have been giving the solstice/golden/milton/shiaoPi case secondary focus (from being too focused on Hegeo). I recommend that everyone take a look at the other case and we work as one unit, rather than two.
Also, get your votes off Mufaa. He will be replaced/modkilled if he doesn't do crap. Otherwise, we can lynch him D2.
|
So right from the start, Milton acts like a Mafia:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there.
Makes a post to exclude himself from the lurkers when he doesn't provide anything useful.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
Repeats ideas already mentioned and seems perfectly content to let Sciberia take some heat. This is very early so this post probably helped generate discussion but again, it wasn't anything new to us.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times.
The 10% they don't know is the roles which townie/scum reads doesn't give them. You appear to be trying to trick us into stopping the townies from spreading useful information.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:16 Miltonkram wrote:
Sciberbia- I don't really see a whole lot wrong with what I've posted. Everything I've written, including my suspicions of you, was with the goal to generate discussion. With that being said, admittedly I wasn't active at scumhunting because of the lack of information to work from.
With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make.
seems kind of like an excuse for a scum slip to me. This is very vague and you don't seem to have a goal with this post.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:53 Miltonkram wrote:Alright, I've got a case that I think has some merit. s0LsticeShow nested quote +Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts: Show nested quote +I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes. ##FOS: s0Lstice
This post is interesting because Solstice does look inconsistent with his play. Milton calls him out but he doesn't
posting this now cause ran out of time. Will continue.
|
EBWOP: ... Calls him out but he doesn't apply any REAL pressure. Not asking for a response of any kind. The FOS appears to be for courtesy rather than pressure.
At this point, SOlstice's defense appears to be much more solid than your accusations, which is saying something because accusations are typed without pressure whereas defenses are typed under pressure.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo:
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it.
As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa).
Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content.Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy. @ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi. ##unFOS: s0Lstice ##FOS: ShiaoPi
Plucking at straws. He realizes that his arguement against solstice is fruitless so he points the torch at ShaoPi. He concerns over defense when SHaoPi aims towards pointing out scum. In Mafia, pointing out scum is more valuable than hugging fellow townies. Why wouldn't you want him to point out scum? If he has a stronger case than your case against him, the town will lynch for his case, rather than yours, thus providing a strong defense. Your post is illogical.
The rest of the post is useless filler.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:34 Miltonkram wrote:
Also, I think it's time we light a fire under Mufaa to get him posting.
@ Mufaa- If you want me to change my vote for you, you better get in here and start posting. It's really hard to have good town play if even one person is lurking.
##Vote: Mufaa
This is something I think everyone should keep in mind. We only have one player who is hardcore lurking. That means we have at least one mafia who is staying fairly active in the thread. I need some more time to think this line of thought through (What kind of active town benefits a mafia? What can we do to prevent that kind of town from happening?), but it's good to keep in mind when reading through a player's filter.
pure crap. Voting for the lurker on D1 is never a good idea when there are obvious scum targets at hand. Very wishy-washy with his constant change in thought. Trying to confuse the town?
i'll stop here because i ran out of time for real this time, but if i had to switch away from Hegeo, you would be my next target.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Just came back from a long day in class.
Let's get some of my thoughts out:
First of regarding my suspcions on s0lstice:
In my opinion he is constantly trying to overemphasize my attack on him instead of clearing the accusation. If you go to that particular post, I do in fact answer his main argument, which was concerning my stance on sciberbia, then I went on to attack him. Reading through his response I came to the conclusion that either he can not understand my point of view or does not want to. Both of these attributes are not really helpful to us. Either it's bad townie play or it is scummy play to get a bandwagon starting on me. For now I will stop responding to you, s0lstice since our quarrel has degenerated to something close to OMGUS and does not give us any more information, you refuse to budge from your stance I refuse to move from mine. As Golden wants a clearer list on my suspicions on him here goes:
-His first post without fluff is sharing a list of reads. There is nothing wrong with that but I feel that his seemingly random choice to call me out appears as an attempt to seemingly contribute without doing much.
-I agree with him that my play until now has not been flawless, but him increasing the pressure without more "evidence" strikes me as suspicious.
-His argumentation against me started with lack of content and filter size. I pointed out the flaws in it and just get tunneled harder. If you go through his filter you will see that he lacks content as well (besides tunneling me). This is a contradiction of his own logic --> fishy.
-He continually pressures me without reacting to parts of my counter-pressure on him.
Hopefully that helps others as well.
Concerning Milton:
Golden brings up some good points on him and Milton has promised for a while now to deliver something more in detail regarding his stance on me. To me him switching his FOS appeared as bandwagoning on someone already under pressure, while voting for Mufaa. This is a move I do not understand. If he wants to increase the pressure on me he should just vote me instead of going after our well known lurker, who has already been called out multiple times. Notable is alos that he ignored my responses to his FOS on me.
Seems like a lot of inconsistent play, adding weight on to Golden's post.
The above two paragraphs should be enough to clarify my opinions on Milton and solstice.
Regarding the case on hegeo:
I'll probably just repeat myself but nothing of his posts screams scum to me. It could very well be bad townie play. In addition to my critique on him earlier I also want to point out that his vote on Mufaa is outright not helpful. Several people have already called him out and by his lack of responses we can dedcut that he will either get modkilled come the nightpost or we will lynch him day 2. No reason to vote him off, if there are other more informative targets around.
Still I won't vote for him now, because I believe it to be possible that we got a case of bad townie. If push comes to shove and we lack a vote on him and would have a no-lynch he will have my vote, as I already stated that in my opinion no-lynches are utterly stupid for town.
I will probably wait with my vote until I see more from Milton/solstice. Something more from hegeo would not be wrong either.
Lastly regarding Mufaa:
I already said, lynch him tomorrow if he is still not modkilled by then.
|
Want to add some structure to our discussions for the rest of the day.
I just went through everyone's filter and wrote down who I think each person's primary targets are. It seems to me that there are exactly three people who have a realistic chance of being lynched today: miltonkram, hegeo, and shiaopi
I ask that we concentrate our discussion on these three people.
We need 5 out of a likely 8 votes to be cast on the same person, and mafia are not likely to cooperate, so I agree with Release that we really need to come together as a group and make the decision here.
I really would like to hear everyone's brief opinions on these three players specifically, and maybe it will become obvious who our consensus lynch target is.
For me:
1) Milton - most scummy
2) hegeo - definitely suspicous
3) shiaopi - a bit supsicious, i'm kinda undecided
You can be assured I will vote for whichever of these three we as a group decide is most likely to be mafia. I'll be online until the deadline.
|
There's one thing I have to say: We have about 8 hours till the deadline, and we have 4 votes in for players besides Milton. I'm not entirely confident in our ability to switch to a new player in this time. And if a few people try, and mufaa doesn't vote, we'll have a really hard time getting to lynch anybody at all. Just to make sure there is no confusion, I'm fine with a lynch for Milton, but I'm afraid we won't be able to lynch anyone if a few people go all out to try to lynch him.
|
EBWOP: Damnit, didn't refresh to see that basically exactly what I was trying to communicate was already posted :C
|
I'm pretty confident that we could lynch Milton (or shiaopi) if that is indeed our choice. Pretty much everyone has agreed that they would vote for the consensus candidate. Of the 4 votes, 1 is milton himself, and the other I'm quite sure each of the other 3 (hegeo, you, Release) would also be willing to vote for Milton. Everybody should be online again before the deadline and able to change their vote.
What are your current opinions on milton, hegeo, and shiaopi?
|
I think it's time to start voting along with your statements. Give more emphasis and importance to what you are saying.
Also, hegeo and milton, get your votes off Mufaa and on either Milton or Hegeo.
It would be best to vote ASAP so we can hammer out as many cases and see if there is a reputable defense.
|
Also, Milton and Hegeo are the two scum imo. I've posted both of their cases.
ShiaoPi seems to be their deflection target. Not to say that he is above suspicion, but the other two have done so so little to actually contribute to finding scum.
Another thing to look at is who the other scum is: as i've already said, my opinion is Hegeo + Milton. However, i still have my suspicion on the whole 'divide the game into two games' scenario. I need to look as to who was the main contributor to this type of play. I recommend you do too because this has clearly slowed us down tremendously.
|
Regarding people's suspicions of me.
I've already explained my line of reasoning. My pressure on s0Lstice was a mistake on my part, simple as that. I'm willing to switch my vote on Mufaa, since I think he will be replaced/modkilled. All people had been saying up to that point in time amounted to, "Mufaa, we'd really like to hear from you." I wanted to see if he would make a response to some real pressure. I think we can agree that voting for someone is the most pressure you can put on them. At the time I was trying to do two things at once, pressure ShiaoPi and pressure Mufaa. I guess I didn't make it clear what I was doing. Also, I hadn't considered this:
---snip
Also, get your votes off Mufaa. He will be replaced/modkilled if he doesn't do crap. Otherwise, we can lynch him D2.
He's guaranteed to be lynched D2 if he does pop in to vote, so I won't concern myself with him anymore.
My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post.
+ Show Spoiler +Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it.
Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post?
+ Show Spoiler +Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post.
+ Show Spoiler +Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now.
Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression.
Let's look at his suspicions of hegeo.
+ Show Spoiler +[quote]I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now.
What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +)
Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all.[quote]
Once again this is "suspicion" that he doesn't actually have to commit to, and he hopes he won't be held accountable for.
I would ask you all this, who would be more damaging as scum? The actions I've taken in the game have all been actions that I've committed to. (barring the mistake I made with s0Lstice, but that was just me being dumb.) You can actually tie me to what I've written and hold me accountable later in the game, whereas ShiaoPi seems to have some sort of "escape clause" in almost every single one of his posts. The only thing he's been adamant about has been his FOS of s0Lstice, and that pressure has a built in escape to it, seeing as he can excuse himself by saying that s0Lstice had pressured him first.
Anyway, what are people's thoughts on this? Seeing as I'll be away for an hour or two I'm going to go ahead and vote.
##unVote: Mufaa
##Vote: ShiaoPi
|
I can't go too much into detail now, but I will before deadline, soon enough to make my case.
All I can say for now is, that people should please look at my filter and ask yourself if you think I made my cases and if I tried to hide anythinf. I don't think shiaopi is scum, I stated it after he answered (cant quote atm so sorry, look it up). Be sure that I will not vote for mufaa in the end. Just tried to get him to post, I stated it at least three times before I voted. (From my phone so short, sorry)
|
I think we ought to have another look at this marvellosity character...
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 22:30 marvellosity wrote:
Current Vote Count:
hegeo (2): Release, Mordanis
Mufaa (2): Miltonkram, hegeo
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Voting ends in 10 hours. Yet to vote: Mufaa, Solstice, sciberbia, O.golden_ne, ShiaoPi.
Current FoS Count:
Many. I don't really count these obviously. He lurks all day, and then here is his first big post. I don't see what he's contributing, apart from arithmetic skills. I couldn't make a less controversial post if I tired; he makes no effort to help us scumhunt. And then he tries to impress us by making this big list, but what is he actually contributing? Seems scummy. He even ADMITS to not counting FoS's. I may not be the best townie in the world, but at least I keep diligent track of who is FOS'ing whom. Well marvellosity, here is a FoS you better take note of: ##FoS: marvellosity
Anyway, in response to milton's post on shiaopi, I agree that his first couple of posts seem scummy. He was initially my top scumread based on those posts. However, I liked his defense to hegeo: he didn't sound scared and wasn't super defensive, but rather stood by what he posted and said he didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I still find his overall play a bit suspicious, as I stated before.
I don't think we should lynch someone for being a "dangerous" mafia if they were hypothetically mafia. I think we should just lynch whomever is most likely to be mafia. Every mafia is dangerous.
Sorry if I'm wrong milton, but my gut feeling has been for a while now that you are mafia and you've done nothing to really dissuade me. Release asked for votes so here goes:
##Vote: Miltonkram
|
On May 24 2012 03:24 sciberbia wrote:I think we ought to have another look at this marvellosity character... + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 22:30 marvellosity wrote:
Current Vote Count:
hegeo (2): Release, Mordanis
Mufaa (2): Miltonkram, hegeo
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Voting ends in 10 hours. Yet to vote: Mufaa, Solstice, sciberbia, O.golden_ne, ShiaoPi.
Current FoS Count:
Many. I don't really count these obviously. He lurks all day, and then here is his first big post. I don't see what he's contributing, apart from arithmetic skills. I couldn't make a less controversial post if I tired; he makes no effort to help us scumhunt. And then he tries to impress us by making this big list, but what is he actually contributing? Seems scummy. He even ADMITS to not counting FoS's. I may not be the best townie in the world, but at least I keep diligent track of who is FOS'ing whom. Well marvellosity, here is a FoS you better take note of: ##FoS: marvellosityAnyway, in response to milton's post on shiaopi, I agree that his first couple of posts seem scummy. He was initially my top scumread based on those posts. However, I liked his defense to hegeo: he didn't sound scared and wasn't super defensive, but rather stood by what he posted and said he didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I still find his overall play a bit suspicious, as I stated before. I don't think we should lynch someone for being a "dangerous" mafia if they were hypothetically mafia. I think we should just lynch whomever is most likely to be mafia. Every mafia is dangerous. Sorry if I'm wrong milton, but my gut feeling has been for a while now that you are mafia and you've done nothing to really dissuade me. Release asked for votes so here goes: ##Vote: Miltonkram
I'd like some more concrete reasons for your vote other than a gut feeling that never got changed. IDK this vote didn't really contribute to the discussion. What you think is important, but why you think it is at least as important.
|
So my thoughts on some of the other cases up for consideration:
Hegeo
+ Show Spoiler +He has had to spend a lot of time defending himself. In his other posts, he has applied soft pressure on a few people but then quickly backs off. He is very apologetic, and lacks conviction. This would all read as nervous townie, except his scumhunting leaves a lot to be desired. He has towed the line on ShiaoPi some, but beyond that, all there is is a Mufaa pressure. This appears to be his only decisive action. I will consider voting for him
sciberbia
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't love that he was warned for making fluffy posts, and then continued to do so. Release has stated this before. The most egregious example is the post directed at Mordanis where he accuses him of 'jumping all over him.' This response seemed overblown and pointless to me. Defending against an imagined slight is questionable to me.
His one accusation of note is against Miltonkram, which I thought was a good start. The pool gets muddled when he switches back to hegeo, but that doesnt remove what I think is a decent attempt on Milton.
Because he has made attempts to scumhunt, and is actively trying to contribute, I would not feel comfortable voting for him today.
Miltonkram
+ Show Spoiler +Ah wow, I had this written, then refresh and saw Milton posted a defense. Put frankly, I think he has adequately defended himself. I dont like his out of sequence and seemingly random Mufaa vote, but as he said, he was doing it not as his main thrust, but in addition to pressure on ShiaoPi. He screwed up in pressuring me, just as I screwed up when I pressured him. It's a knock against both of us, but I dont see it as damning. Other than that, he has been after ShiaoPi. He supported the existing case and added some new content to it. I see nervous townie play, trying to make all the right plays, but coming through as inconsistant. I would prefer not to vote for him, but will do so if it means him or nobody.
ShiaoPi
+ Show Spoiler +I don't want to rehash, all I want to say here is that this is where I feel the strongest. I see also that he has posted a bit ago while I was writing. I'll have a look momentarily and comment as needed. Voting for ShiaoPi would be my wish, but if it doesn't get any traction I will look elsewhere for now.
|
ShiaoPi-
The OMGUS is there I think. I'd prefer to not cease communication with each other however...I'd rather try to make it constructive. You say there are parts of your counter-pressure I have not answered. Can you tell me what you would like answered?
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I'll go through this in detail:
On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:
-snipped-
My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post.
Is there any reason why you have conveniently ignored my posts about my playstyle?
I explained the reasons of it here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: Show nested quote +"maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion).
I elaborated further on it here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it.
I guess you just accidentally left those out of your analysis. But nevermind let's carry on.
On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler +Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there.
If you claim that I was just repeating your words, where are my thoughts on Mordanis in that post? I can't find them, furthermore have stated my reasoning behind my first post already, feel free to reread:+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:
So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then.
What a surprise, you seem to have overread my stance on the first post. If it does not convince you, can't help you I made my point on it clear enough.
On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler +Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum.
This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression.[/quote]
Can you show me other instances of so called noncomittal aggression? First of all reread my posts towards sciberbia, I used the words, I never put any serious pressure on him. I just acknowledged the fact that there was a slight wonderment, but I have not acted upon it. Just for the record again, I am not really comittal on day 1 for reasons above.
On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:Let's look at his suspicions of hegeo. + Show Spoiler +I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now.
What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +)
Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Once again this is "suspicion" that he doesn't actually have to commit to, and he hopes he won't be held accountable for.
How is that suspicion to you? The general vibe of the post is a more defensive one regarding hegeo. I have stated more than once already that I believe him to be a bad townie, I point out the flaw in his play, but I do not throw a FOS in his direction, nor do I pressure him directly.
If you put that post back into the context, it was just me answering to the question of sciberbia. Please do not extract things out of context to make them seem "evidence". I was asked on my opinion therefore I answered. I do not see anything wrong with that.
On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:
I would ask you all this, who would be more damaging as scum? The actions I've taken in the game have all been actions that I've committed to. (barring the mistake I made with s0Lstice, but that was just me being dumb.) You can actually tie me to what I've written and hold me accountable later in the game, whereas ShiaoPi seems to have some sort of "escape clause" in almost every single one of his posts. The only thing he's been adamant about has been his FOS of s0Lstice, and that pressure has a built in escape to it, seeing as he can excuse himself by saying that s0Lstice had pressured him first.
Anyway, what are people's thoughts on this? Seeing as I'll be away for an hour or two I'm going to go ahead and vote.
##unVote: Mufaa
##Vote: ShiaoPi
Conclusivly I have the feeling that you simply ignored my posts which did not fit into your logic. If you take a look at this post of mine: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 09:06 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes.
-snipped-
At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content. If you do quote parts of my defense please make sure that you quote the entire picture. Take a look at my post in response to hegeo: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:-snipped- Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it:
"maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait"
Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion).
I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now. I bolded my explainations regarding content etc. Furthermore I would have assumed that it is content that I am explaining why and how I posted the things, so please point out my defense, which "lacks content". Furthermore I focused my defense on the "knee-jerk" as most people seem to be much more concerned with that than what you perceive as lack of content. I am also calling out people in my posts since that is in fact content. Maybe it is not as nicely formatted and phrased as it would be if I did not have to permanently defend myself, but do take your time to read my posts thoroughly. There is content. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? That "list" was not supposed to accomplish something. Take a look at it in the context I have put it into. It simply serves as a way to reveal the contradiction that I have already pointed out in solstice's posts. I have not made that list with the caption: HERE IS MY CONTRIBUTION! If you want to point out weird spots in my posts make sure you do it within their context and not just out of the blue. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy. Again I have already given my reasoning on day 1 play reread my filter and you should be able to see it. I am currently gunning for Mufaa and s0lstice. Mufaa for hardcorelurking and bad experience in newbie mafia XIII, while I have elaborated on s0lstice in my post before. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:
@ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi.
##unFOS: s0Lstice
##FOS: ShiaoPi Hopefully that should have been enough to convince you. I am going to bed now, so don't fret over my sudden lack of activity.
I had already answered to you yesterday, but weirdly enough it had little to no influence on your renewed case against me.
I really cannot understand that you take almost 7 hours for your case today but still managed to miss all my later posts in which I explained my actions in detail. It smells of scumwagoning.
##Vote: Miltonkram
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@solstice:
I was asking for the reasons why you still see me as scummy. I believe to have answered all your proddings to some satisfaction. You acknowledged my stance on sciberbia, then went on to ask about me attacking rather than defending. I answered that question as well.
You even said it yourself:
My filter is full of my feelings on ShiaoPi for others to consider for themselves, and our recent exchanges have reinforced my initial suspicions, but nothing really new has been added.
I simply do not understand the continued pressure besides it being a case of OMGUS (I am not entirely innocent of that either)
|
@Mordanis:
I agree my post didn't contribute much to the discussion. My main point of the post was just to cast my vote. Miltonkram asked for everyone's thoughts on his accusation of shiaopi, so I gave mine. My reasons for accusing Miltonkram have already been stated: see my first post about him, and golden's later post.
I feel obliged to explain myself to s0lstice, but I don't think it's that relevant to today's lynch so I'll spoiler it:
+ Show Spoiler +
Perhaps I took his post the wrong way, but the lines such as
"And I don't see anyone you are considering lynching in your post.",
"If you'd clarify I'd love to comment on them as well.", and
"One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything."
seemed overly aggressive towards me, considering that my post was pretty level-headed. In retrospect, I regret responding to his accusation of hegeo at all, because it was early in the day and I wasn't even questioned for comment. I just instinctively try to discuss anything and everything as much as possible because I think hearing other people's thoughts can only help town. But, I realize that it clutters up the thread and I'll make an effort to post less in future.
Thanks for giving your opinions on lynch candidates, s0lstice. Similar posts from everyone else would help a lot.
|
Ok, I'll explain my suspicion and try to stay out of OMGUS land when I return. Couple hours to drive home/pick up the kid etc. I'll be back with enough time to do that place my final vote.
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
Current Vote Count:
Miltonkram (2): sciberbia, ShiaoPi
hegeo (2): Release, Mordanis
Mufaa (1): hegeo
ShiaoPi (1): Miltonkram
With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch. Voting ends in approximately 3.5 hours. Yet to vote: Mufaa, s0lstice, O.golden_ne.
|
thank god i didn't miss the deadline. I went to sleep and forgot to vote.
I'm going to stand by my earlier posts about miltonkram.
but before i vote i want to say that i will change to Hegeo in the case that we dont get enough votes for a lynch, i like Mordanis and Releases argument on him.
In the case the miltonkram flips town, i'm going seriously question ShiaoPi however.
@Hegeo can you please swap your vote of Mufaa, he is most likely modkilled.
##Vote: Miltonkram
|
It seems we've hit a bit of a deadlock. Here are my thoughts on the Hegeo/Milton/Shiao thing. Specifically I look at what has changed since most of us were on and bickering last night, and only what these players themselves have done.
+ Show Spoiler [Hegeo] +Since I left the other night, he's had some activity. First off, let me say something that I find fishy. His primary mode of defence seems to be to let others take care of the accusations toward him. This doesn't seem scummy necessarily, it just seems weird.
Overall, he basically has only posted in order to make himself less suspicious. When Release switched to pressuring Milton and I relented for the night, he stopped posting entirely. This is selfish play. Town should not play like this, but it doesn't make him scum. What does concern me is the selfish play after his statements telling us to play more considerately (formatting, the thing where he said that Release was being too aggressive in a gigantic wall of text). I don't understand his play. He says that walls of text are bad unless they are 100% necessary, but he posts a wall of text whose only purpose is to point out that one player had been too aggressive 12 hours before. Since he stopped posting when there was no pressure on him, I'm very suspicious. For one thing, a townie should care about who is lynched beyond that the person who is lynched is not himself. Hegeo doesn't seem to care, going inactive right now. Scum on the other hand, probably don't care who's lynched except that it isn't a scum. Overall, I'd say that Hegeo has become more sketchy in the last few hours.
+ Show Spoiler [Milton] +
Again, we run into some very illogical posting. His main suspicion against ShiaoPi is that Shiao is playing very similarly as him but a bit later. This is suspicious, but so is his play. Anyways, since the last flurry of activity, Milton's main activity has been one large post in which he both defends himself and attacks ShiaoPi. I think his case was weak, but he at least tried to do something helpful. Also, he seems to be a diluted Release, and as I've said earlier, a player who is much better than me said that newbie scum are rarely aggressive, and Milton's posting has been fairly aggressive. Overall, I'd say that Milton is slightly less suspicious than he was earlier, and his posting has improved. He still seems like a decent candidate, but my gut feeling is that he isn't scum. As I've pointed out before though, my gut isn't very reliable, so I would vote for him.
+ Show Spoiler [ShiaoPi] +
Like Milton, Shiao's posting has improved a fair bit. Actually, as Milton himself pointed out, these players are actually very similar to each other so far. For that reason, I highly doubt that both are scum, as that would assume that both scum are incredibly incompetent. Anyways, since yesterday, Shiao did basically the same thing as Milton. For some reason these two just seem to be mirrors of each other. But the only thing is that Shiao is always just a few posts behind Milton. In a newbie game, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if mirroring another player was ScumShiao (shiao if he were scum)'s method of blending in. That however, is complete WIFOM. I'm just thinking aloud with that. My only thought is that if we lynch one of either Milton or Shiao, we should lynch the other next unless we actually get mafia this cycle (which would be pretty much gg, 7town vs. 1scum).
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 24 2012 06:32 O.Golden_ne wrote:
thank god i didn't miss the deadline. I went to sleep and forgot to vote.
I'm going to stand by my earlier posts about miltonkram.
but before i vote i want to say that i will change to Hegeo in the case that we dont get enough votes for a lynch, i like Mordanis and Releases argument on him.
In the case the miltonkram flips town, i'm going seriously question ShiaoPi however.
@Hegeo can you please swap your vote of Mufaa, he is most likely modkilled.
##Vote: Miltonkram
Golden, this post of you is highly confusing to me. You point out that you stand by your posts about miltonkram and your suspicions therefore. But then you actually consider swapping votes on hegeo, if a no-lynch is looming.
Can you explain your logic behind that? With your vote we are at 4 votes on Milton, which makes a switch to hegeo to ensure a lynch highly unlikely. With your vote the only missing ones are solstice and mufaa. As I doubt that mufaa will show up for the deadline it is much more likely that solstice will go with the milton vote to ensure a lynch as he has stated.
The other confusing thing about it is your conclusion that if milton flips town I am to be pointed at. Can you enlighten me on that thought process? I did pressure him but only after he started pressuring me and as response to his poorly written cases.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
EBWOP: Mordanis, could you please point out the similarities you see in my posts and Milton's? The ones I see are mainly on the first post, not in entire playstyle.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Another EBWOP: Yes I fail to count, in my first post I mean 3 votes on Milton...
|
When you were pressured you, responded by putting pressure on someone who had nothing to do with the accusations. And then you two ended up being the pair that shares the most suspicion, and you are both at each others throats. I just went into my TV room to watch Star Wars, so if you want more, just tell me and I'll type it up for you in about 15-20 minutes.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
In fact it would like to see more.
I believe I went after solstice first after getting pressured, as he was the one pressuring me. so how come that you think he had nothing to do with the accusations?
|
Hour and a half to the deadline. We really need to decide on a target. I've been accumulating a list of everyone's opinion on whether to lynch shiaopi, milton, or hegeo, and it looks something like this:
sciberbia: milton, hegeo, then shiaopi
golden: milton, hegeo, then shiaopi
shiaopi: milton, then hegeo, not shiaopi
mordanis: hegeo, then milton/shiaopi
release: hegeo, then milton, then shiaopi
solstice: shioapi, hegeo, then milton
milton: shioapi
hegeo: shioapi, then milton
mufaa: ............
Feel free to correct me if I've misrepresented your views.
I propose that shioapi is out of the running. He is primarily accused by the two other lynch candidates, as well as solstice. He is viewed as least scummy of the three by me, golden, mordanis, and release
On the other hand, milton has 3 votes, and release said he would also be quite interested in voting for him. He is about the same as shiaopi in mordanis's eyes.
Hegeo is the primary target of release and mordanis, and is also considered moderately suspicious by all the people we aren't considering lynching.
Can we agree to focus on milton vs hegeo?
|
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:53 Miltonkram wrote:Alright, I've got a case that I think has some merit. s0LsticeShow nested quote +Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts: Show nested quote +I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes. ##FOS: s0Lstice On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:@hegeo: So you see me as scummy/suspicious? Let's take a look at your reasoning: I'll follow the chronological order of your post. So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then. In your 2nd snippet you take a closer look on my suspicions of Mufaa. I really do not think an issue of semantics is scummy. I also do not phrase it as "What others said" I posted "since we all agree..." If you really want to go into semantics please take note that I am using the plural with myself included, so it is just another way of saying since I and others agree on...." Going on to the 3rd excerpt: You state the following: + Show Spoiler +This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you. I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. Next snippet is me repsonding to sciberbia regarding my stance on him and as you take it out of context it looks useless. I believe it to have served it's purpose of further clarifying my opinion. Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: Show nested quote +"maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now. You both post fairly weak semi-accusations (him by posting a weak case, you by posting on an old case)
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote:@solstice: If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion. On another note you have not answered my other question, regarding you tunneling me all the time when your argumentation which you base it on (contribution, filter size) also fits others. Let's take a look at your post: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram I am one of the several people you call out. As you share them in the thread I would believe it safe to assume that these were (or maybe still are) your main suspects. The one thing that you combined with calling me out was filter size and my opinion on sciberbia. After I explained my stance on sciberbia all you had to work with was filtersize and my reaction. My reaction was explaining my opinion on sciberbia and an attack on you. You continue to ignore my explaination and just go on about my attack on you. Conclusively, you seem to base your pressure on me by randomness of grabbing the name of the first person who did not post much until then and could be an easy way to seemingly contribute. I quote you now: + Show Spoiler +Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. Keep that in mind as I quote your latest post: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:59 s0Lstice wrote:
ShiaoPi
Notice that all I've done is apply pressure. I've never claimed that a small filter is a scum guarantee. Being relatively quiet is plenty of reason to pressure you, just as it is plenty of reason to pressure me. You've responded with gusto, and that's good for everybody, as we have more to go on. I still don't buy your explanation for why you didn't address my accusation. The fact remains that you attacked instead of explained. You wanting to throw the ball my way is fine, but doing so in lieu of a defense to pretty weak pressure (based on filter size, which I agree with you is weak) is scummy. As such I still suspect you.
You wonder why I don't focus on him (Mufaa). Everybody is suspicious of him, me saying so serves no purpose. We know already his name will probably come up for lynch tomorrow because lurkers are at best useless and at worst dangerous.
This raises the following question: Why do you call out somebody, if you are not convinced by your own argumentation? To me it seems like you are trying to appear town as you try to build a case on somebody.
##FOS: s0lstice You both go after Solstice
And after that you both remain each other's biggest opponent. Especially if you look at the general gameplan, you guys do seem quite similar.
|
Also, can other people say what they think about Hegeo's lack of activity? Just over 12 hours ago, he said he just woke up, but he only posted once in that time... Am I the only one who sees this as incredibly suspicious when he just became a secondary target?
|
Ok ShiaoPi, I'll start here, with my initial pressure.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
This was two pronged pressure. First prong is your filter size, second prong is you backing off your slight pressure on sciberbia. Your response is this:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote:
If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion.
Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well?
You explained your view on sciberbia. This answered the question: why did you back off sciberbia?
The second question was: why is your filter small? You answered: yes my filter is small, why is your filter small?
I look at that and think: he just answered a question with a question. And more, his question was an accusation at his accuser. He would now discredit the questioner/have the discussion be about me instead of him. The scum motivation for this is to get the focus off yourself. I don't really see a town motivation for not answering a simple question. This got me suspicious of you.
You address this specifically in a reply to hegeo's pressure:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:
I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument.
Here you acknowledge that you didn't answer the second part of accusation, and instead accused your accuser. This maintained my suspicion. What you called 'pointing out a flaw,' I called bringing in a separate and unrelated issue (my filter size) to deflect the pressure. A quick note on my filter:+ Show Spoiler + I'm not saying I'm not accountable for my content. I will answer for it if someone has a problem with it. I know you did before ShiaoPi. My content has been: to build a case on you, take the time to read all the other major cases in the thread and comment on them, some defense, promote discussion early on, and discourage needless focus on an obvious lurker.
Now this:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you.
Here you defend your lacking filter, and I believe this is the first time. You basically say that you have commented on other cases and pointed out a lurker. That stuck out like a sore thumb, it seemed to me a paltry contribution, even with your comments on your playstyle. The follow-up is also very telling. You again shift the focus by bringing in other names, and then go on the attack again. I see this as scummy.
You speak more on it here:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote:
If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion.
To me the character of these words is summed up as 'I wont respond to weak pressure. You want me to talk, you have to seriously pressure me.' This is not inherently scummy or town; it is important for all players to be economical with their words, and pick their battles. What it made me want to do is pressure you more, and follow through with my initial read.
Concerning your activity, its all well and good if you want to play laid back on day 1, but you also have to understand that this is another strike against you as scum typically play this way. You dont come down hard on anyone but me (the one going hard after you), and a lurker. Your defense on this appears to be, 'this is how I play day 1 guys.' This on it's own isn't a big knock against you, but when added to everything else it certainly isn't nothing.
One last thing on this: the posts where you site a passive day 1 playstyle when others. This would have functioned as a response for me. Was this not simpler, more town?
You address this here:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:
I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument.
yet here you say:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote:I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: Show nested quote +"maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion).
You say you didn't want to cite your playstyle in the first defense because it could be interpreted as scummy, yet you go on to cite it anyway when further pressure was applied. The way you talk about your play seems very inconsistant.
So I need to wrap this up because vote time nears. I hope this makes it clear why I suspect you.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I can see the similarities in the first post, but I have to disagree on your second and third examples.
In the 2nd one you quote my defense against hegeo's case on me. There is nothing similar in his suspicion of solstice and my defense, the only thing, which could qualify in that way was me calling out Mufaa yet again (I already did earlier and therefore just took it as an example in the context in my post.) Compare that to Milton:
First of he claims to have a "case with merit", which is just as weak as any other he has posted thus far. He also drops it really quick for something with "merit".
The 3rd one is part of my case against solstice. I went after him since he called me out with weak reasoning, I would have assumed that the process from pressure to FOS was pretty transparent and well-thought in comparison to his "case" against solstice. Just as another reminder, he actually dropped his pressure on solstice, while I am still more or less slugging it out with him.
|
It seems the smart thing to do right now, as sciberbia said, is to focus on milton and hegeo. We are split right now with 3 on milton, and 2 on hegeo. I am ok with dropping ShiaoPi for today, as the only other person besides me who seems to be inteterested voting for him is one of the other lynch candidates.
|
I'm usually very hesitant to try to pin two people together especially on day 1, but I feel compelled to share my accumulating evidence for milton and hegeo both being mafia:
1) the coincidence debacle with hegeo was following milton's first post
2) after my initial post accusing milton, hegeo made a random, long post about release, perhaps trying to distract our attention from milton. He followed this up with an accusation against shiaopi, and milton has recently been attacking shiaopi as well
3) hegeo gave a half-defense of milton when prompted
4) milton has remarkably said nothing at all about hegeo
I know there is no solid evidence here, but I'm becoming increasingly inclined to agree with Release that they are both mafia. I'd be happy with lynching either. But we ABSOLUTELY MUST lynch somebody. There's an hour left so please start voting people!
|
ShiaoPi, I did not deliberately disregard your later posts. However, real life has gotten in the way of me posting more content and my follow up analysis of your later posts was left undone. Suffice to say, I think what you call play style is actually your built in excuse for your scummy behavior. I think the healthy town atmosphere has forced you to be more active than you originally planned, and only after you were pressured by s0Lstice and myself did you begin to post decent, but not good, content. If I may sum up your play style for the sake of time:
-Lurk until there is pressure on you
-Respond to pressure with mostly defensive statements
-When that doesn't work, begin to put counter-pressure on your attacker
-Bandwagon on me once you see that I'm a prime lynch
I'd post more direct analysis, but once again, time is running short.
Everyone, I hope you can figure out why this is scummy activity in my eyes. If I get lynched today, I hope you keep this in mind. The pressure seems to be off ShiaoPi right now, so unless I can miraculously convince you all to vote for him I guess I'll have to switch my targets.
|
@Miltonkram
@hegeo
I think we are pretty much decided on lynching one of you. If either of you are town, it only makes sense to vote for the other. I ask that you do so now.
|
Hegeo, where you at anyway buddy.
|
On May 24 2012 07:20 Mordanis wrote:
Also, can other people say what they think about Hegeo's lack of activity? Just over 12 hours ago, he said he just woke up, but he only posted once in that time... Am I the only one who sees this as incredibly suspicious when he just became a secondary target?
|
Yea I saw. When we were picking a deadline before game, he said that 6PM is approaching his limit for staying up. I think it's midnight for him. Still though, he had time before now.
|
If hegeo doesn't post at all before the deadline or even change his vote from Mufaa, I would consider that extremely scummy and would be willing to change my vote to him.
@Miltonkram
Please vote on hegeo. It's between him and you. Unless you have a very strong town-read on hegio (don't know why you would), the correct town move is to vote for him. The sooner the better.
@s0sltice
Could you please put a vote on hegeo or milton? I'm beginning to get a bit worried and I'd just feel better seeing more votes on these players. Thanks.
|
Very well, I don't like making this move, but if we lynch hegeo, there is at least a small chance of him being mafia.
##unVote: ShiaoPi
##Vote: hegeo
For the record, if you lynch me and see me flip town, that doesn't mean hegeo is mafia. Too much of his case has been circumstantial, and too much of it has been just a few vocal players tunneling him.
|
I think we should assume his vote will be staying put.
milton: sciberbia, shiaopi, golden
hegeo: release, mordanis
shiaopi: milton
we wont be getting a lynch if you guys stay put. if i add to milton, that makes only 4. there needs to be some movement
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@solstice
In regards to my answer towards your question on the filter. I must admit that I simply did not pay it that much heed. I see the accusation as split in 2 parts, the sciberbia part and the filterpart. My thoughtprocess on that is: okay, he calls me out for a switch in opinion and a small filter. I just checked your filter to get more information into my reply and I see, wow his filter is just as small. why is he calling me out on that? So I go on to just clarify my opinion and call you out. This seems to you as scummy as you see it as unrelated issue, I saw it as part of your argumentation and therefore defended according to it. Defending in this case meant deflecting it by calling the validity of the argument into question I admit it would have probably been better to just lay open my gameplan then, but I was reluctant to as I felt that there was no need for it.
From your point of view it was just me bringing in more other things to deflect from myself. From my point of view it was simply a matter of defusing an argument that was annoying to me. I lacked and probably still lack according to some people content but it really is hard to get some content in, if I have to defend myself all the time. Even if I bring new content by bringing up other people it is written off as poiting in other directions in hopes of going scot-free.
If you keep that dilemma in mind hopefully my posts make more sense to you. I tried bringing in more content and it gets written off so I just focus back on defending as I cannot contribute if I am lynched.
Regarding playstlye, I did in the end cite it as it seemed necessary defensewise. I said it can be read as scummy, so I just put trust into your reading comprehension to read it the way it was meant to be.
Conclusively with that well-structured post I now got a good idea of your suspicions and hopefully answered some questions for you. On another note that post also convinced me that there is logic and sense behind your accusation, since my play has been admittedly not the best.
##unFOS: s0lstice
If you got more questions keep coming.
|
ebwop: milton switching gives us 3 each. I've made it clear I prefer Hegeo, so I will vote Hegeo.
##Vote: hegeo
|
|
|
I am changing my vote to hegeo as well on the assumption that he does not post by the deadline. If he defends himself by the deadline, I would consider switching back to milton.
##Vote: Hegeo
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 24 2012 07:39 Miltonkram wrote:
ShiaoPi, I did not deliberately disregard your later posts. However, real life has gotten in the way of me posting more content and my follow up analysis of your later posts was left undone. Suffice to say, I think what you call play style is actually your built in excuse for your scummy behavior. I think the healthy town atmosphere has forced you to be more active than you originally planned, and only after you were pressured by s0Lstice and myself did you begin to post decent, but not good, content. If I may sum up your play style for the sake of time:
-Lurk until there is pressure on you
-Respond to pressure with mostly defensive statements
-When that doesn't work, begin to put counter-pressure on your attacker
-Bandwagon on me once you see that I'm a prime lynch
I'd post more direct analysis, but once again, time is running short.
Everyone, I hope you can figure out why this is scummy activity in my eyes. If I get lynched today, I hope you keep this in mind. The pressure seems to be off ShiaoPi right now, so unless I can miraculously convince you all to vote for him I guess I'll have to switch my targets.
If I may share my point of view on your points:
-start laid back in Day 1 as it is after all Day 1 with all its implications
-defend yourself against pressure (this is actually a no-brainer, which player does not?)
-Look at ways to put in content by analyzing your attacker's play and pointing out aspects I find suspicious
-Pick apart your weak case against me and make conclusions from it.
|
damn. not sure if i have to unvote milton first but i'll do it anyway
EBWOP:
##unVote: Milton
##Vote: Hegeo
|
Is this the correct vote count?
milton(2): shiaopi, golden
hegeo(5): release, mordanis, milton, sciberbia, solstice
mufaa(1): hegeo
mufaa has still not voted
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
So with all the switches we are now at
Milton: Me
Hegeo: Release, Mordanis, sciberbia, solstice, milton
Mufaa: hegeo
Not-voting: Golden, Mufaa
I do admit Hegeo's absence is highly suspicious although it may be timezonerelated it is 1:00AM right now in CEST. But he had plenty of time beforehand.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
EBWOP:
Golden voted on Milton as well, so its as sciberbia said
|
|
|
@Golden
@Shiaopi
Could you guys vote for hegeo? Just want to make sure nobody has a sudden change of heart resulting in a no lynch. Thanks.
|
|
|
On May 24 2012 08:05 ShiaoPi wrote:
So with all the switches we are now at
Milton: Me
Hegeo: Release, Mordanis, sciberbia, solstice, milton
Mufaa: hegeo
Not-voting: Golden, Mufaa
I do admit Hegeo's absence is highly suspicious although it may be timezonerelated it is 1:00AM right now in CEST. But he had plenty of time beforehand.
He did say that he'd probably have to leave around 6PM EST each day, but leaving a vote on mufaa for which we all agreed not to vote, as well not showing up at the deadline is pretty sketchy. Could you please vote for him?
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I actually believe it would be better to not switch.
First of I am still unsure if we are going after scum or bad townie, even if his absence is letting me trend toward scum.
Secondly it has already been well stated that we do not want a no-lynch, looking at the votecount right now we get a lynch on hegeo. Anyone jumping off that train so close to the deadline is pretty much a confirmed scum, trying to sabotage town or in an last ditch effort to save his scumbuddy hegeo.
There is probably a lot of WIFOM in that statement, but I actually think it makes sense.
If anyone does switch he practically begs to be lynched day 2...
|
so.... I still don't see why you can't vote on hegeo? Unless you think no-lynch is better than lynching hegio, it can in no way hurt to vote for him.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I deem it totally unnecessary, but if you do insist on it.
##unvote: Miltonkram
##vote: hegeo
Just for the record, I am not sure about that lynch and to me Milton seems more scummy.
|
You said that you think he might be scum, and that lynch is better than no lynch. Just because you're not 100% sure is no reason not to vote for him. Nobody is 100% sure. I don't think anyone will think any less of you if you vote for him
|
##Vote:Mordanis
BTW: I didn't suicide. I played to win.I literally worked for hours on this. Sorry for the confusion I caused.
|
What I post now is in contrast to what I stated before, namely that I said I had no strong scumread.
Truth is, I have. You will see/saw how I flipped. I apologize for playing bad or not optimal, but all I want is to win. And I win with town, wether I’m dead or alive.
Since I’m about to get lynched (or shot at night for that matter if I'm correct), I present to you evidence for a scum team, that seemingly decided to play this game not as lurkers, but the direct opposite. I’m not trying to defend myself here, I accuse. I urge you to reread my posts and all the others I quoted if you really want to go into detail here. It will take more time than you have until deadline. I understand. I worked as quick as I can. The bold/italics for orientation only. There are also important points I couldn't highlight anymore.
The beautiful scum duo Release and Mordanis
1. The Start
+ Show Spoiler +They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of.
Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice.
Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written?
He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later.
Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy.
Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”.
Interim findings:
So what was established by them for now is that
a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right?
b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so.
c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies?
d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia.
2. The Interlude
+ Show Spoiler +I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point.
I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes.
When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here.
Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!!
Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others).
At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking.
Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently…
3. … the enfants terrible entered the room again!
+ Show Spoiler +Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted.
Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”.
Releases’s entrance:
A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose.
Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo”
And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try.
Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think?
They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up.
(Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context)
4. Here comes the heat
+ Show Spoiler +Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!)
Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing.
So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever.
When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play?
Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M.
I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him.
Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “
So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well:
Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again.
Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?)
He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it)
And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”??
- Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing.
6. So, I mean you should get my point by now, but I will procede...
+ Show Spoiler +
To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two).
Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down?
Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)”
You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?”
I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was.
Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said.
In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts.
That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night.
7. The aftermath
+ Show Spoiler +Two angry scummies.
And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release:
“Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis.
You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target).
I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again!
Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And…
Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again:
“And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length:
“Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.”
To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.”
Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated?
And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for.
##Vote: hegeo”
What I would like you to do
+ Show Spoiler +
Fellow townies.
I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…)
You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced).
I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada.
They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed)
Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other.
Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points.
Dear Mordanis and Release
Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning.
Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread
|
Dude worst timing ever. You realize the deadline is in 5 minutes? This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Seeing as I can't even read your post in the next 4 minutes, there is no way we are lynching Release or Mordanis.
|
I don't see anyone else changing their vote, so I think we are still lynching hegio? His last post confuses me so much. Why would he go through all that effort if he is mafia and knows he is going to be lynched anyway? But here we have WIFOM - perhaps he just wants us to panic at the last minute and not lynch him for this reason. I think at this point we are just lynching him and worrying about his post after we see his flip. If anyone objects to this course of action, you had better speak fast.
|
"Also, no interaction between these two in the thread"
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why. The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town. As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching. As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] +Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention.
And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well.
Note the spoiler.... Normally I wouldn't post much content between day cycles, but this seemed a little too not-factual.
|
On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
Dude worst timing ever. You realize the deadline is in 5 minutes? This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Seeing as I can't even read your post in the next 4 minutes, there is no way we are lynching Release or Mordanis.
He says right in the header that he's been working on this the entire time, and presumably wanted to get it in earlier. I wish he would have dropped a quick note to that effect, but it seems like he was pretty engrossed.
|
@sciberbia
I just realized 15 minutes ago that it is nearly deadline. Copy-pasted it like crazy. And you all agreed on me, I wasn't sure I could defend me in thread, too much pressure.
Good night all.
|
Well it's 7:30 so we lynched him. Really hope he's mafia. Can we please avoid such a deadline fiasco in future? I'm looking at Golden and Release who still aren't here.
|
@Mordanis
"Also, no interaction between these two in the thread"
...
Dude, thank you for that post. Townies, you see him?
|
Good night hegeo, if you flip town at the very least we can take your last post and it's accusations seriously.
|
On May 24 2012 08:29 s0Lstice wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
Dude worst timing ever. You realize the deadline is in 5 minutes? This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Seeing as I can't even read your post in the next 4 minutes, there is no way we are lynching Release or Mordanis. He says right in the header that he's been working on this the entire time, and presumably wanted to get it in earlier. I wish he would have dropped a quick note to that effect, but it seems like he was pretty engrossed.
But don't you have to copy the code from the thread for this type of thing? This is such a weird situation.........
|
Did that hit you where it hurts Mordanis? It's weird you responded so quickly to one portion of his pretty large argument. I would have read it in it's completion first...
|
|
|
|
|
No, I just opened a few spoilers, and that stuck out at me. It was so wrong I couldn't help but correct it. It is the equivalent of me saying that Hegeo never mentioned Mufaa. I couldn't help but post that in case people review that in the night and take his statements at face value without reviewing the thread. At least that one was a bald-faced lie. So remember that everyone, when you read it. He accuses the 2 people who were on him from the start, you can expect some bias.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Just finished reading it.
Sadly it is too late to get some discussion on that post before lynch.
Mordanis your timing is incredibly scary. Especially just that single remark in the entire post stuck you as most important to respond to?
Either you are a really fast reader or we just had a knee-jerk from you.
Anyway, really waiting for the flip now...
|
thanks for playing hegeo.
|
On May 24 2012 08:37 ShiaoPi wrote:
Just finished reading it.
Sadly it is too late to get some discussion on that post before lynch.
Mordanis your timing is incredibly scary. Especially just that single remark in the entire post stuck you as most important to respond to?
Either you are a really fast reader or we just had a knee-jerk from you.
Anyway, really waiting for the flip now...
I only read a little bit..... And I just explained why. Anyways I'm off to work. Here's hoping for some red!!
|
lol. if you think he is going to flip anything but green now you are nuts. posturing by you.
|
Night 1![[image loading]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3559/3333079635_6c256d8d8f.jpg)
The town had gathered in mass to discuss the messy business of which among them was to die. After much discussion and debate, they came to a consensus. Unfortunately, their luck couldn't have been worse.
hegeo the Town Doctor has been destroyed by his peers.
Mufaa has failed to vote and will be replaced. Voting is mandatory.
You have ~24 hours to send in your night-actions.
|
|
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
townflip, even blue.....
Mordanis and Release you should better prepare a damn good defense now
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
anyway almost 2 AM here I am off to bed
|
well this seriously sucks. I might be a bit inactive during this night phase. My last exam is tomorrow morning. I'm not gonna do any major analysis or posting for a little while.
|
I guess that explains his mostly soft pressure. He sounded like a politician up until that last post, not sticking his neck out. My #1 newb fear was confusing blue for red.
|
I couldn't get in right before the deadline because real life called. I will be posting my rebuttal to hegeo's big post soon.
Here is a short answer to a post which still appeared scummy (despite the fact that he turned out blue): I couldn't give two shits about Mordanis because your case was so much more scummy than his.
|
On May 24 2012 08:21 hegeo wrote:What I post now is in contrast to what I stated before, namely that I said I had no strong scumread. Truth is, I have. You will see/saw how I flipped. I apologize for playing bad or not optimal, but all I want is to win. And I win with town, wether I’m dead or alive. Since I’m about to get lynched (or shot at night for that matter if I'm correct), I present to you evidence for a scum team, that seemingly decided to play this game not as lurkers, but the direct opposite. I’m not trying to defend myself here, I accuse. I urge you to reread my posts and all the others I quoted if you really want to go into detail here. It will take more time than you have until deadline. I understand. I worked as quick as I can. The bold/italics for orientation only. There are also important points I couldn't highlight anymore. The beautiful scum duo Release and Mordanis1. The Start+ Show Spoiler +They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of.
Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice.
Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written?
He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later.
Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy.
Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”.
Interim findings:
So what was established by them for now is that
a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right?
b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so.
c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies?
d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia. I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point.
I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes.
When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here.
Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!!
Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others).
At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking.
Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently… Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted.
Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”.
Releases’s entrance:
A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose.
Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo”
And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try.
Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think?
They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up.
(Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context)
Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!)
Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing.
So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever.
When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play?
Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M.
I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him.
Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “
So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well:
Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again.
Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?)
He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it)
And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”??
- Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing.
To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two).
Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down?
Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)”
You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?”
I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was.
Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said.
In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts.
That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night.
Two angry scummies.
And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release:
“Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis.
You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target).
I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again!
Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And…
Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again:
“And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length:
“Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.”
To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.”
Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated?
And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for.
##Vote: hegeo”
Fellow townies.
I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…)
You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced).
I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada.
They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed)
Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other.
Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points.
Dear Mordanis and Release
Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning.
Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread
1 the start:
Mordanis was the first to post something that was about our Mafia game. I wanted to get the discussion going so why not use a FOS? Clearly, it did get discussion going and i don't see why this should be questioned. It was a way to avoid the useless banter that tends to happen at the start of every other Mafia game i've read.
2 the interlude:
much of your post here is actually mostly summary, but seeing as you turned blue, i will ignore that for now. Mordanis and I seemed close because we were both pushing for information and discussion. That and out of all the people in this thread, he is the one who actually notices (first) that i stopped doing the hyper aggressive posting. Made it seemed like he actually read the thread as opposed to skimming which allows him to make VALID contributions.
3 ... :
The timing is a coincidence. Take it for what you will.
I called you a liar because that's what you were at the time. Intentionally leaving out the important part of my contribution to make it look like i am posting filler. (Hegeo claimed it was a mis-quote, but i honestly still believe that he was pushing my case way too hard without any evidence). i said 3 mafia because of Newbie game II, which i had been reading into extensively before playing this game. And using a smiley face as evidence is pretty scummy; who pays attention to smilies in a Mafia game? Why do i need to ask Mordanis for his opinion when he is already giving it? You want me to clog up the thread?
+ Show Spoiler +after reading your post until here, i still can't believe that you actually flipped blue and not red.
I didn't respond to your case on Shaopi because i was absolutely sure that you were scum and trying to deflect the attention. Your case on Shiaopi didn't really have a lot of conviction in it and i didn't want to distract people from focusing your case.
4 heat:
+ Show Spoiler +seriously? His name? I got it right the first time because i didn't know who posted it and copied it from his post. After that, i wrote his name wrong on accident and kept writing it that way. I will probably keep writing it incorrectly because i have it ingrained in my mind that it is Sciberia and not Sciberbia.
^^^ Not important
WIFOM is a well known term in the Mafia community. Too bad if anyone else doesn't. + Show Spoiler +
I was just trying to make sure that people recognized that your case was much more scummy than the others'.
I didn't give a shit about mordanis. I only care about making sure people were focused you. I didn't suspect him, he contributed, no need to aggravate him.
5: Will be continued
|
5:
no 5. Strikes me as odd. Probably had a 5 but deleted it on second inspection. To me, sounds like grasping at straws and then realizing that the case against myself and mordanis is not as strong as he thought it was.
6. to be continued.
|
Please don't make a big deal out of this, but i am going to take a break from this post to re-read the thread and step back for a bit. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Hegeo is not a scum.
|
skware is replacing Mufaa effective immediately. Everyone welcome our bright and shining volunteer.
|
Hi guys I'm gonna reread part of the thread and post my thoughts in a little while
|
On May 24 2012 08:21 hegeo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What I post now is in contrast to what I stated before, namely that I said I had no strong scumread. Truth is, I have. You will see/saw how I flipped. I apologize for playing bad or not optimal, but all I want is to win. And I win with town, wether I’m dead or alive. Since I’m about to get lynched (or shot at night for that matter if I'm correct), I present to you evidence for a scum team, that seemingly decided to play this game not as lurkers, but the direct opposite. I’m not trying to defend myself here, I accuse. I urge you to reread my posts and all the others I quoted if you really want to go into detail here. It will take more time than you have until deadline. I understand. I worked as quick as I can. The bold/italics for orientation only. There are also important points I couldn't highlight anymore. The beautiful scum duo Release and Mordanis1. The Start+ Show Spoiler +They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of.
Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice.
Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written?
He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later.
Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy.
Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”.
Interim findings:
So what was established by them for now is that
a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right?
b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so.
c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies?
d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia. I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point.
I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes.
When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here.
Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!!
Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others).
At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking.
Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently… Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted.
Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”.
Releases’s entrance:
A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose.
Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo”
And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try.
Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think?
They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up.
(Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context)
Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!)
Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing.
So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever.
When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play?
Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M.
I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him.
Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “
So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well:
Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again.
Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?)
He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it)
And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”??
- Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing.
To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two).
Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down?
Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)”
You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?”
I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was.
Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said.
In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts.
That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night.
Two angry scummies.
And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release:
“Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis.
You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target).
I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again!
Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And…
Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again:
“And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length:
“Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.”
To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.”
Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated?
And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for.
##Vote: hegeo”
Fellow townies.
I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…)
You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced).
I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada.
They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed)
Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other.
Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points.
Dear Mordanis and Release
Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning.
Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread
The way mordanis and release have responded to this post one at a time just seems to lend weight to the accusation. In a majority lynch situation I'd expect to find both mafia as votes for the lynch. Especially with how close it came to being a no lynch.
As far as myself goes, I dont think anyone suspected mufaa of anything other than lurking and clearly it went beyond lurking to ignoring the game. I'll be contributing to the thread more after the day post so no one should have similar issues about me.
|
On May 24 2012 14:06 skware wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 08:21 hegeo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What I post now is in contrast to what I stated before, namely that I said I had no strong scumread. Truth is, I have. You will see/saw how I flipped. I apologize for playing bad or not optimal, but all I want is to win. And I win with town, wether I’m dead or alive. Since I’m about to get lynched (or shot at night for that matter if I'm correct), I present to you evidence for a scum team, that seemingly decided to play this game not as lurkers, but the direct opposite. I’m not trying to defend myself here, I accuse. I urge you to reread my posts and all the others I quoted if you really want to go into detail here. It will take more time than you have until deadline. I understand. I worked as quick as I can. The bold/italics for orientation only. There are also important points I couldn't highlight anymore. The beautiful scum duo Release and Mordanis1. The Start+ Show Spoiler +They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of.
Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice.
Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written?
He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later.
Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy.
Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”.
Interim findings:
So what was established by them for now is that
a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right?
b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so.
c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies?
d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia. I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point.
I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes.
When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here.
Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!!
Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others).
At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking.
Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently… Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted.
Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”.
Releases’s entrance:
A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose.
Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo”
And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try.
Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think?
They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up.
(Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context)
Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!)
Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing.
So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever.
When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play?
Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M.
I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him.
Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “
So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well:
Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again.
Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?)
He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it)
And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”??
- Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing.
To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two).
Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down?
Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)”
You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?”
I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was.
Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said.
In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts.
That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night.
Two angry scummies.
And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release:
“Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis.
You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target).
I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again!
Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And…
Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again:
“And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length:
“Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.”
To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.”
Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated?
And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for.
##Vote: hegeo”
Fellow townies.
I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…)
You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced).
I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada.
They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed)
Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other.
Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points.
Dear Mordanis and Release
Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning.
Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread
The way mordanis and release have responded to this post one at a time just seems to lend weight to the accusation. In a majority lynch situation I'd expect to find both mafia as votes for the lynch. Especially with how close it came to being a no lynch. As far as myself goes, I dont think anyone suspected mufaa of anything other than lurking and clearly it went beyond lurking to ignoring the game. I'll be contributing to the thread more after the day post so no one should have similar issues about me.
Busy with real life. I didn't even get in before the night post. Believe it or don't believe it.
|
6 procede... :
I didn't get mad at you. Stop putting feelings? in my mouth. I was stating a fact that delaying your post was never going to look good. I don't ask Mordanis because he just gave a pretty analytical post against you. No need to ask for something which is already there. I don't blame him, you seemed scummiest at the time of posting.
Am i not allowed to answer to a post from 80min ago? Should i completely ignore that? You seem to want me to avoid reading that when it was one of your key scummy posts. Benefit of the doubt is what lets mafia get away with being townie, or at least avoiding a lynch. I didn't give you benefit of the doubt because i didn't see any reason to let such a scummy player get away with his life. I did, however, give plenty to milton, because your play was far more scummy than his play.
The attack on sciberia was to get him to be more useful. WIFOM is a waste of time and i stand by that.
7. aftermath:
I never questioned whether i was right or not because you gave me absolutely no reason to. The cases that you wrote didn't substantiate to anything useful. Your case on ShiaoPi was nice in trying to divide the town's intention though.
I feel safe? It's the same as any other "i'm busy" posts or "i have to do something." Mine isn't special.
Mufaa was a lurker who obviously wasn't doing anything and having a vote on him is solely to go for a no-lynch which has already been deemed as a waste of a day. Keeping your vote their makes you seem scummy.
I'll defend Mordanis in spoilers, but really, this is an attack on your reasoning:
+ Show Spoiler +stop taking things out of context. He posted the pride thing, THEN posted "i waited." Not completely townie but not exactly scummy either.
[8] What i would...:
Just because we happen to lynch a townie (if that's what you were, we didn't know), that's not to say that we should be lynched. We should be inspected and roasted, but given a chance to defend.
I started putting votes on you. I put a vote on you long before anyone else did because i was so certain. Mordanis probably read my post and responded.
Now that that is done i have a few VERY important things to say
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I have absolutely no reason why i should have to defend myself. I have posted analysis, i have made solid cases. These cases have not been disputed which means to say that i have been telling the truth. If you think i'm then look through my filter, point out my flaws, and build a case against me.
Also, i will be looking into Mordanis to see if his actions are motivated by town/scum. He may have been preying on my case against Hegeo because he knew hegeo wasn't mafia, but i cannot say this with conviction until i have checked again.
This brings me to my next point: We still have a nice a solid case against Milton. I think this is where we should head next (granted that there is not significant case against Mordanis or I).
Also, i want everyone to take a close look at the bandwagon that formed right before Hegeo's death. My vote was the first, Mordanis followed, then a rapid outpouring of votes starting with milton.
Milton claims - "there is at least a small chance of him being mafia." to subtly claim that he is townie with no real evidence.
Solstice - appears to want a lynch. Votes for his previous posts.
Sciberia - has suspicion on both. Seems to vote because Hegeo has not posted yet. Asks for more votes after majority, which i find a little strange. If we do see a sudden change of heart, we know who is scum.
ShiaoPi - votes because sciberia said so. Still claims more scumminess from Milton. Thinks for himself, which is more than i can say for a good portion of you.
Hegeo - Mordanis. Tries to intercept the bandwagon 5 minutes pre-night post. Didn't dissuade the bandwagon.
So, what i get from this is that Sciberia and Mordanis have a little explaining to do. I already mentioned Mordanis above, but ill mention him again, he seemed to be content with following me.
Sciberia seemed to be content to lynch Hegeo for the sake of a majority.
People really need to start thinking themselves. This i congratualte ShiaoPi on and insist that you keep thinking for oyurself.
Night, and i hope to read something useful by morning.
|
Think for yourselves. I can't stress how important this is.
|
Again, I'd normally not post any content during the night, but I don't see any mafia killing me when there's a very good probability I'll get lynched tomorrow (as things stand right now). So with that in mind, I'd like to discuss my thoughts on Hegeo's accusations.
+ Show Spoiler [Prologue] +
First off, we lynched Hegeo because he was terrible as a townie. Some of the mistakes he made were novice mistakes (such as not refreshing the thread before posting, and not paying attention while everyone slowly formed up to lynch him), but one main point still stands: none of his analysis was breathtaking or deep. His only analysis before this was a few accusatory points towards several players, and since he cannot have been right on all counts I think we can only treat this as analysis done by a confirmed townie. Nothing more. Nothing less.
+ Show Spoiler [Confusion] +
WTF? Probably my main reason for pushing his lynch was that he didn't make sense. And all the while while I try to come up for an explanation of why he has been silent, he's been working up a gigantic case against me and Release. But to do that he must have been looking in the thread to copy and paste. You'd think he would have looked at the new stuff at any point. Or at least not ignore the last 24 hours of the first day cycle. I'm still trying to figure out what the heck he was thinking at any point. I'm certainly not entirely sure how people can react to this without accounting for the fact that the last 14 hours of his play made absolutely no sense. I'm especially sad to see a medic out, but I just can't really understand what he was doing.
+ Show Spoiler [Emotion] +
My first responses to his accusation were influenced by emotion. I cannot tell why, but for some reason Hegeo just seemed to strike a chord in me. It happened earlier, and I posted badly for a while until I cooled down back then. Perhaps this goes with the confusion about his play, I cannot really say. All I can say is that I should be more emotionally stable from now on. That being said, I still stand by the content of my earlier posts (really only that his comment about Release and I staying seperated was a complete falsehood).
+ Show Spoiler [Point by Point Refutation] +This is as much an exercise in controlling my emotions as anything else. Also, I will only argue with verifiable/falsifiable facts, so it is more of a fact check than a point-by-point refutation. Anyways, here is his post + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:21 hegeo wrote:What I post now is in contrast to what I stated before, namely that I said I had no strong scumread. Truth is, I have. You will see/saw how I flipped. I apologize for playing bad or not optimal, but all I want is to win. And I win with town, wether I’m dead or alive. Since I’m about to get lynched (or shot at night for that matter if I'm correct), I present to you evidence for a scum team, that seemingly decided to play this game not as lurkers, but the direct opposite. I’m not trying to defend myself here, I accuse. I urge you to reread my posts and all the others I quoted if you really want to go into detail here. It will take more time than you have until deadline. I understand. I worked as quick as I can. The bold/italics for orientation only. There are also important points I couldn't highlight anymore. The beautiful scum duo Release and Mordanis1. The Start+ Show Spoiler +They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of.
Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice.
Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written?
He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later.
Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy.
Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”.
Interim findings:
So what was established by them for now is that
a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right?
b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so.
c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies?
d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia. I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point.
I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes.
When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here.
Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!!
Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others).
At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking.
Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently… Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted.
Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”.
Releases’s entrance:
A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose.
Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo”
And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try.
Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think?
They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up.
(Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context)
Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!)
Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing.
So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever.
When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play?
Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M.
I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him.
Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “
So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well:
Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again.
Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?)
He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it)
And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”??
- Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing.
To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two).
Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down?
Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)”
You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?”
I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was.
Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said.
In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts.
That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night.
Two angry scummies.
And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release:
“Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis.
You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target).
I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again!
Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And…
Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again:
“And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length:
“Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.”
To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.”
Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated?
And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for.
##Vote: hegeo”
Fellow townies.
I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…)
You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced).
I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada.
They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed)
Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other.
Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points.
Dear Mordanis and Release
Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning.
Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread
In his first section, he says that we were a dance for two in the beginning. Did he completely ignore the fact that Sciberbia was just as involved as Release and I (I actually greatly prefer the sound of "sciberia" in my head to "sciberbia", so if its ok with you I'll just go with that from now on)? Also, his only real suspicion derived from the opening sequence is that Release and I were the first active participants. In the second section, he doesn't really post any suspicious behavior. He only implies that our play is similar. Again, there is no evidence. There really isn't anything to talk about. In the third section (I laughed when I saw him mock my use of the red to accuse him when he accused me), comes the real meat of his argument. He believes that Release and I are scum because ...... we both accused him of scummy behavior. And then he states that thing about us not interacting. I also didn't interact with Mufaa, or Sciberia, or Milton when I posted my case on him. I see no reason to, its an appeal to emotion that doesn't help anything. As another example, try to find an instance of the people who were working on a case against Milton (or to a lesser extent ShiaoPi) directly talking to each other. I don't get what that is supposed to mean x.x The fourth section is quite possibly the strangest logic I've ever read. Again, he tries to draw attention to how we act similarly by misspelling Sciberia's name and referencing old games. The step from similar play to scum-buddies is what I just can't get though. It seems to go back to the main- that Release and I were the first to vote for him. Also this made me literally laugh out loud (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?) Also we did exchange reads, namely our biggest (and in looking through the thread again, I am even more sure of this) the most logical scum-read. The "fifth" section sees little improvement in logic. The only things that could be construed as facts in this section are his claim that Hegeo had correctly understood one of my earlier posts and did not take it out of context. He says that I flip-flopped in regards to my view of aggressiveness. It just ain't so! The first line of the post Hegeo talks about is this : First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^
. I think its quite obvious that I approved of his early game aggression to begin with, but that I think he went overboard when (in the same post) I later wrote Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention.
. In the "seventh" section, he catches my weakness. I did allow emotion to rule my play. He correctly spots that I let my pride and need for the feeling of righteous vengeance to cloud my judgement on him. This was a mistake. I will do my best to learn from it and grow. And the "8th" section (If you read this, hegeo, I'm only doing quotations in remembrance of your insistance that Release and I are scum-buddies because we both spelled Sciberia's name wrong), is just him trying to manipulate the town after his death.
+ Show Spoiler [Subjective Reaction To Hegeo's P…] +
Hegeo's conclusion is obviously that Release and I are both scum. Here I try to find out how he came to that conclusion. He seemed to put a great store of importance in the fact that Release and I were fairly similar (in spellings, references to previous games, and aggression/activity). Again, I'm really trying to find out any link between the two, but I just can't. Milton and ShiaoPi have been playing similarly as well, but he didn't see them as scum. So what was the difference between them and Release and me? The only thing that I can think of is that we accused him. I agree that it is suspicious to be the first to accuse someone who flips town, but this is a risk that must be taken for town. If I were one of only two mafia, there's no way in hell I'd risk one, let alone both mafia get caught on D1. Overall, I see no reason to see the similarities between Release and me as damning proof that we are the entire contingency of scum for the entire game. Frankly, I am a bit worried that after just a cursory read people were beginning to believe what Hegeo was saying. We really need to improve our analysis as a town if this is seen as solid.
+ Show Spoiler [Final Thoughts] +
Ok, so I know that with my previous knee-jerk reactions to this post I do seem pretty suspicious. All I ask is that you reread his post and his actions with a fresh mind. Ask yourself if my actions prior to his lynch were suspect or not. Ask yourself if you believe that Hegeo found both scum singlehandedly while letting himself die. Ask if you think my reaction was really that suspicious, in light of a history of Hegeo getting on my nerves. This was a really weird situation, but I don't think it really changes much about what we know, except knowing that one of the townies was really not a very good townie.
|
Also, I wish I'd been back from work earlier... I knew Release was going to try to offput some of the blame onto me. Seems pretty rational, two people who look bad from a freak accident of illogic, in self-defense one tries to blame the only others who seem scummy at the point, the second person up for the lynch (Milton), and the other person caught in the freak accident (me). All I can say about "following" Release is that I was the first to comment on the strange timing of his first post, and that Hegeo's play was the most scum-looking to me. I've already said that this may have been caused by my pride, but I did my best to see the person whom I thought was most scummy lynched. Whatever else, I will not say that my commitment to see Hegeo lynched was a mistake. And I also disagree that I followed him.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote:First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation. Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. Then he posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:54 hegeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there.
I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. . This is right after I first state my misgivings about his timing. Do you see the passive aggressiveness? He defends himself in a strange way. He says virtually nothing save a small excuse for the the timing of his post. First statement is the most absurdly WIFOM I've ever seen. It was hilariously passive aggressive. Second statement was just agreement with someone else (which he stated), and the third was basically just an excuse. I have a hard time reconciling his behavior with being town. Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. If anyone wants my comprehensive analysis of this, I'll post if if I must. To me though, what I want to say is fairly simple. He praises Sciberia for "bringing the heat", and then spends the rest of the post explaining why Release's play has been suboptimal. In his next post, he even outright chastens Release: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:35 hegeo wrote:EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler +(I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context). I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish. He has only posted shallow analysis in which he deflects attention from himself. He hasn't really helped at all in the scum-hunt. He has very suspicious activities. I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day. That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo
You'll not that I posted my case on him before Release. How do you reconcile this with your statement that I was "perfectly content to follow you"?
|
Since you responded so fast I'll respond to that. On my phone now so there might be some typos.
I wasn't blaming you. Merely casting suspicion. I know you posted first but I had only read up to hegeo's first post when I started typing my response. Didn't see his second or your post. It's what happens after these posts that gets me though. You use emOtion as reasoning which I don't buy. I think it is a cover up for a lack of analysis and just following the townie who has a strong case against another townie.
You posted him in red and considering you didn't have any other solid scum reads, why didn't you vote for him? You sure seemed more content to vote for him after I voted.
As it stands now your response to this is crucial to my judgement on you.
Night for reals. Staying up way too late.
|
woah, Doctor killed.
we're really behind now 
i'll mull over hegeo's final post before day two, it's really hard to draw links between players so early. but alot of what he has said works out.
also Release, i dont think there was much of fiasco at the end of day one. the voting was fairly logical and it didnt seemed too rushed from anyone. people just switched over the the mis-lynch of hegeo.
|
@skware
Welcome to the game 
@Release
I don't think my actions require a lot of explaining. If you read over the posts, you'll see I was working hard to promote objectives of the town: decide who we think as a group is the most scummy and lynch them. I focused the conversation on hegeo and milton, the 2 most likely lynch candidates. If hegeo had made his giant post 15 minutes earlier, I probably would have pushed milton, but with 5 minutes left? I don't see how you can hold it against me for helping to organize a lynch on someone who we all (especially you) thought was suspicious.
@Release
@Golden
I didn't appreciate that you guys were unavailable around the deadline. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you had important things to do, but a townie would have strong interest to make sure we get a good lynch. Being absent during voting is more consistent with mafia objectives: not caring who gets lynch as long as its not mafia. And if its a no-lynch, even better. Does anyone else see this as suspicious?
|
skware: welcome to the game. I'm a little terrified that if you are mafia, you had a free day of lurking ;D
It's going to be a busy day at work for me so I'll be out of action until late afternoon/early evening. My plan for then is to have a long look at hegeo's final accusation post and the corresponding defense posts.
|
@Sciberia
MEntioned it twice now. Busy with RL. Don't turn this into WIFOM.
We had a majority, did we not? (5/9)
WHy would you ask for the others to join us as well? If they didn't and we suddenly had a nolynch, we instantly know who is scum. THere is just no point for doing this considering how far away we are from LYLO.
|
EBWOP:+ Show Spoiler + I was the one trying to get a later deadline. 7PM EST i would get back. Unfortunately, something popped up. So i got back later.
|
On May 25 2012 00:14 Release wrote:
@Sciberia
MEntioned it twice now. Busy with RL. Don't turn this into WIFOM.
We had a majority, did we not? (5/9)
WHy would you ask for the others to join us as well? If they didn't and we suddenly had a nolynch, we instantly know who is scum. THere is just no point for doing this considering how far away we are from LYLO.
Nolynch is preferable to lynching a blue. The fact that you disagree with that is pretty scummy.
|
@Release
I guess the question is: if somebody had jumped off the bandwagon, does that help town? Obviously it does if he is blue, but we of course didn't know that at the time. I don't think the answer is so clear-cut. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm just explaining what I was thinking at the time. It was a little hectic and I had one clear goal in mind: get a lynch on hegeo/milton by 7:30.
I still fail to see how my actions implicate me as mafia. Will you please either rescind your accusation against me or tell me what mafia motive you think I have for getting a 6th vote on hegeo?
@skware
Are you talking to me or release? I don't see where either of us claimed that lynching a blue is better than no-lynch. Please explain.
|
@sciberia i was refering to this back and forth
If hegeo had made his giant post 15 minutes earlier, I probably would have pushed milton, but with 5 minutes left? I don't see how you can hold it against me for helping to organize a lynch on someone who we all (especially you) thought was suspicious.
and
We had a majority, did we not? (5/9)
WHy would you ask for the others to join us as well? If they didn't and we suddenly had a nolynch, we instantly know who is scum. THere is just no point for doing this considering how far away we are from LYLO.
Where release says he wouldnt have been for changing his vote even if hegeo's post had come out earlier.
|
On May 25 2012 00:56 skware wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 00:14 Release wrote:
@Sciberia
MEntioned it twice now. Busy with RL. Don't turn this into WIFOM.
We had a majority, did we not? (5/9)
WHy would you ask for the others to join us as well? If they didn't and we suddenly had a nolynch, we instantly know who is scum. THere is just no point for doing this considering how far away we are from LYLO. Nolynch is preferable to lynching a blue. The fact that you disagree with that is pretty scummy.
where did i mention i wanted to lynch a blue? You aren't contributing by posting random shit.
|
EBWOP: I wouldn't change my vote because hegeo was suspected scum. Why would i change my vote based on what scum says?
|
@sciberia
On May 24 2012 08:05 ShiaoPi wrote:
So with all the switches we are now at
Milton: Me
Hegeo: Release, Mordanis, sciberbia, solstice, milton
Mufaa: hegeo
Not-voting: Golden, Mufaa
I do admit Hegeo's absence is highly suspicious although it may be timezonerelated it is 1:00AM right now in CEST. But he had plenty of time beforehand.
so let's say ShiaoPi is townie (for this case) and switches to hegeo. hegeo 6. Then milton switches and hegeo 5. Milton could claim that he is just screwing around because the majority is still there. Then ShiaoPi (or whoever else) has a change of heart and switches back to whom he has suspected all along and continued to suspect. That would leave ShiaoPi with a lot of suspicion and Miilton with less.
I haven't acused you yet. Merely pointing suspicion.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't see why everyone gets so defensive at suspicion. This applies to everyone. Doesn't help the town to hold your nuts so tightly.
I still say we look at milton because he still has a substantial case against him.
|
I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone?
|
On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote:
I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone?
Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch?
Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched.
This is so full of shit and scum.
Mafia + Mafia: No. I have already posted on what the Mafia were actually doing when i was roasting hegeo:
The Mafia were trying to split our attention between two cases (Hegeo vs Milton/ShiaoPi/Solstice). Then you post some WIFOM filler (not a big deal since you actually posted some analysis)
Townie + Townie: Who's been playing scummy since hegeo's reveal? Mordanis knee-jerked, not me.
I posted an analytical response to hegeo's post and why the new guy was playing rather poorly. Also, i was the only one to point out that Hegeo's post mysteriously did not have a #5.
Townie + Mafia: Mordanis and i both had our own separate cases against Hegeo. There was a small overlap, but we had our own ideas, just against the same person. When that happens, it tends to look bad for that person.
Note that i am not refuting either of TT or TM yet, just pointing out the misinformation you are posting.
And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you?
Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself.
##FOS: Milton
|
On May 24 2012 00:45 Release wrote:So right from the start, Milton acts like a Mafia: + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. Makes a post to exclude himself from the lurkers when he doesn't provide anything useful. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
Repeats ideas already mentioned and seems perfectly content to let Sciberia take some heat. This is very early so this post probably helped generate discussion but again, it wasn't anything new to us. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times. The 10% they don't know is the roles which townie/scum reads doesn't give them. You appear to be trying to trick us into stopping the townies from spreading useful information. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:16 Miltonkram wrote:
Sciberbia- I don't really see a whole lot wrong with what I've posted. Everything I've written, including my suspicions of you, was with the goal to generate discussion. With that being said, admittedly I wasn't active at scumhunting because of the lack of information to work from.
With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make. seems kind of like an excuse for a scum slip to me. This is very vague and you don't seem to have a goal with this post. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:53 Miltonkram wrote:Alright, I've got a case that I think has some merit. s0LsticeShow nested quote +Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts: Show nested quote +I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes. ##FOS: s0Lstice This post is interesting because Solstice does look inconsistent with his play. Milton calls him out but he doesn't posting this now cause ran out of time. Will continue.
On May 24 2012 00:56 Release wrote:EBWOP: ... Calls him out but he doesn't apply any REAL pressure. Not asking for a response of any kind. The FOS appears to be for courtesy rather than pressure. At this point, SOlstice's defense appears to be much more solid than your accusations, which is saying something because accusations are typed without pressure whereas defenses are typed under pressure. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo:
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it.
As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa).
Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content.Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy. @ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi. ##unFOS: s0Lstice ##FOS: ShiaoPi Plucking at straws. He realizes that his arguement against solstice is fruitless so he points the torch at ShaoPi. He concerns over defense when SHaoPi aims towards pointing out scum. In Mafia, pointing out scum is more valuable than hugging fellow townies. Why wouldn't you want him to point out scum? If he has a stronger case than your case against him, the town will lynch for his case, rather than yours, thus providing a strong defense. Your post is illogical. The rest of the post is useless filler. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:34 Miltonkram wrote:
Also, I think it's time we light a fire under Mufaa to get him posting.
@ Mufaa- If you want me to change my vote for you, you better get in here and start posting. It's really hard to have good town play if even one person is lurking.
##Vote: Mufaa
This is something I think everyone should keep in mind. We only have one player who is hardcore lurking. That means we have at least one mafia who is staying fairly active in the thread. I need some more time to think this line of thought through (What kind of active town benefits a mafia? What can we do to prevent that kind of town from happening?), but it's good to keep in mind when reading through a player's filter. pure crap. Voting for the lurker on D1 is never a good idea when there are obvious scum targets at hand. Very wishy-washy with his constant change in thought. Trying to confuse the town? i'll stop here because i ran out of time for real this time, but if i had to switch away from Hegeo, you would be my next target.
Milton, you scumbag, respond to these. From long time ago and you still haven't responded.
Too bad i was still focussed on Hegeo after i posted this... But that's what you wanted isn't it? You split the town's attention so that there would be two cases and i wouldn't focus as closely on one as i would the other.
|
One of s0lstice's posts really caught my attention. I just want to point it out now in case I'm dead in 10 minutes. In the minutes leading up to the deadline yesterday, hegeo made his final post: a giant, well-formed accusation of Release and Mordanis. At the time, me, milton, mordanis, shiaopi, and solstice were online. Everybody but solstice seemed a bit taken aback at the situation. Hegeo's post made him look town, but none of us were really sure what to think. Here are our reactions:
me: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move.
Miltonkram: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:33 Miltonkram wrote:
Good night hegeo, if you flip town at the very least we can take your last post and it's accusations seriously.
Mordanis: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:33 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 08:29 s0Lstice wrote:On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
Dude worst timing ever. You realize the deadline is in 5 minutes? This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Seeing as I can't even read your post in the next 4 minutes, there is no way we are lynching Release or Mordanis. He says right in the header that he's been working on this the entire time, and presumably wanted to get it in earlier. I wish he would have dropped a quick note to that effect, but it seems like he was pretty engrossed. But don't you have to copy the code from the thread for this type of thing? This is such a weird situation.........
ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:37 ShiaoPi wrote:
Anyway, really waiting for the flip now... On May 24 2012 08:46 ShiaoPi wrote:
townflip, even blue.....
Mordanis and Release you should better prepare a damn good defense now
s0sltice: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:41 s0Lstice wrote:
lol. if you think he is going to flip anything but green now you are nuts. posturing by you. On May 24 2012 08:55 s0Lstice wrote:
I guess that explains his mostly soft pressure. He sounded like a politician up until that last post, not sticking his neck out. My #1 newb fear was confusing blue for red.
I find it suspicious that s0sltice was so sure hegeo is town, and had a quick explanation for hegeo's behavior. Only the mafia actually knew for a fact the he was town.
I looked through solstice's filter and didn't find anything else I had an issue with, so I'm not prepared to say he is definitely scum, but it really strikes me as something suspcious. Again, just wanted to put it out there in case I die.
|
Day 2![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OV5vg9LU2mE/TthjCjFlUII/AAAAAAAACmI/XFgWdXHbjoo/s1600/crime_scene_mgmt1_2405.gif)
Twas the night before Friday and all through the house, not a creature was stirring…except for the two scummy bastards killing people. After a quick glance, you realize one of your member has indeed not joined you.
sciberbia the Vanilla Townie has been…taken care of.
You have ~48 hours from this post to decide who you wish to destroy next.
|
Thanks all for playing. gg
|
|
|
|
|
@ Release- Misinformation? Where? All I'm trying to do is explain the assumption that I'll be working from as I analyze you and Mordanis's posts. In my post I was stating all the possibilities so that I could begin eliminating those possibilities that are less likely. From this point on, I am assuming that between the two of you (Release, Mordanis), I'm pretty sure one of you is scum and one of you is town.
Let me restate this plainly: I don't think both of you are mafia. I don't think both of you are town. I think one of you is mafia and one of you is town.
I believe this for the reasons I stated in my last long post.
On May 25 2012 08:13 Release wrote:
---snip
Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch?
Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched.
This is so full of shit and scum.
No, of course I don't think lynching is completely random. I was shortening my reasoning because it wasn't the main thrust of my post. If we did just flip a coin deciding to lynch you or Mordanis, I say we'd have a 50/50 chance to hit mafia. We can do better than that though, with good analysis we'll find out which one of you is scum.
On May 25 2012 08:13 Release wrote:
---snip
And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you?
Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself.
##FOS: Milton
Holy crap, stop playing so defensively. I'm not even sure if you're the half of the duo that's scum. I'm just laying the groundwork for my analysis of your (you and Mordanis's) posting. Also stop labeling any analysis you disagree with as WIFOM. I think you may be the one who doesn't understand its definition.
Since Release seems impervious to reason, I'll put this out to the rest of the town. I don't care if you think I'm scum or not, the points I made in my post were good ones. Do you disagree with the assumptions I'm making? If you do it's best to speak up now, because I plan on basing my later analysis on these assumptions.
|
However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later.
The mafia wouldn't do this. It's too obvious and scummy. Oh, so they might do this to trick us. But maybe they think that they will trick us so they just stick to the original plan, and what if the town thought of that? Shit, let's switch...
WIFOM
|
Here's why it doesn't even matter if D1 scumbuddying is WIFOM, though your point does make sense. Let's hypothetically say you and Mordanis are scum. Everyone has you and Mordanis linked in their minds because the two of you were the driving factors behind a townie lynch. We vote to lynch one of you and that player turns up scum. All lines of play for mafia after that should be traceable back to the D1 scumbuddy as long as we have decent analysis.
However, you're still ignoring the main thrust of my post. One of you is town and one of you is mafia. All I'm getting from you is that you're scared because I've made the right assumption.
Let's look at your response to my post:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote:
I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone? Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch? Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched. This is so full of shit and scum. Mafia + Mafia: No. I have already posted on what the Mafia were actually doing when i was roasting hegeo: The Mafia were trying to split our attention between two cases (Hegeo vs Milton/ShiaoPi/Solstice). Then you post some WIFOM filler (not a big deal since you actually posted some analysis) Townie + Townie: Who's been playing scummy since hegeo's reveal? Mordanis knee-jerked, not me. I posted an analytical response to hegeo's post and why the new guy was playing rather poorly. Also, i was the only one to point out that Hegeo's post mysteriously did not have a #5. Townie + Mafia: Mordanis and i both had our own separate cases against Hegeo. There was a small overlap, but we had our own ideas, just against the same person. When that happens, it tends to look bad for that person. Note that i am not refuting either of TT or TM yet, just pointing out the misinformation you are posting. And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you? Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself. ##FOS: Milton
It seems you mistook my analysis for a post that was directly pressuring you, which it wasn't. There are a few possible explanations for that: 1. You're mafia and my line of thought is causing you to panic or, 2. you're town and you misunderstood the point of my post. Everything you've been posting seems like a delaying tactic to me. Just give me some time to look through you and Mordanis's filters and let me make my case. Unless you're mafia, then you can keep trying to delay my analysis post, but I'm going to ignore you until the town has my scumread.
|
So having read hegeo's final post/accusations and the responses from the accused, here are my thoughts, arranged in order of hegeo's points. This took a looooot longer that I thought it would.
1) + Show Spoiler +As far as their early interplay is concerned, Mordanis appears to be the one affected by Release's gravity, and not vice versa. In the early game I see there exchanges as just generating discussion, nothing more. Release and Mordanis both mention this in his defense and I agree that it doesn't look scummy. The "us" that Hegeo mentions I think was meant by Mordanis to mean 'us citizens of liquidia,' as in all players. Why did you not address this in your defense Mordanis? Lastly, I feel the argument that Release and Mordanis, as scum, wanted to be super active to fool people who think that scum aren't active really is definitely WIFOM. I assign no value to it.
2) + Show Spoiler +Hegeo points out a very obvious contradiction in Releases statements. He is spot on here; it is a contradiction, and looks scummy. Can you address this Release? I didn't see it in your defense. The rest has little weight to it in my eyes.
3) + Show Spoiler +I just don't see anything here, except for Release being guilty of some OMGUS. He has been aggressive all game, so I kind of expected it. Release's mistake of 3 mafia, is just that: a mistake. Recognize it for what it is, it's not scummy. If anything, Mordanis may be guilty of a little buddying. Buddying is at worst scummy, and at best detrimental to town. Here I just see it as slightly bad town play. Concerning the two of them not orchestrating their attack on Hegeo, Release and Mordanis both correctly addressed this in their defenses. They both could see what the other was doing, no need to ask.
4) + Show Spoiler +The switch to sciberbia isn't much of a point. Both Release and Mordanis were of like mind on Hegeo, so if someone comments on the case, they will of course both comment on it as they must defend their reads. The name mispelling is weird, to be sure. That said, I know I have almost mispelled it myself. I for one believe the accused explanations here.
5/6) + Show Spoiler +this is a summation of sorts of his argument. He continues on the theme of buddying, but I dont feel he has built an overly strong case for it. Again, Mordanis kind of buddies Release? He accuses Release for being angry at his inactivity. I see this as Release continuing to be aggressive, as he has been all game. There's just not really anything compelling here.
I wont address 7, because it is instructions to people who believe his case, which I dont. What I honestly see is aggressive, opinionated, and overtly critical play with Release, and emotional, pack mentality play from Mordanis. Neither is painted as dead red scum to me by hegeo in his accusation post.
|
I'm going to be reading the filters for a while, so no posts from me for a bit. Right now my top scumreads are:
-ShiaoPi: I think he excuses his scummy play by calling it play style. He came into the game with lurker/defensive play in mind, and only after he realized such play wouldn't cut it did he really get active.
-Release/Mordanis: I'm not sure which one of these is scum, but I'm convinced that one of them used the other to cover their scumminess.
Lastly, I've defended my play here:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:02@ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking. First you stated about me: Show nested quote +Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on. The intention of my posts was to generate pressure and discussion. This being my first game, I felt that things such as the list I made and the pressure on sciberbia would be viewed as more threatening than they were actually taken. I believe s0Lstice used the term "weaksauce" to describe them, and looking back, I'm going to have to agree with him. In short, I think you're making a big deal out of some town play of mine that was admittedly less than stellar. The next part of your post states: Show nested quote +he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi). This next part is actually kind of funny, it was a reading comprehension error on my part, a reading comprehension error of his reading comprehension error. I thought it was crazy how flimsy his FOS was, I feel a bit stupid now that I realize what he was saying. Essentially, I did the exact same thing to him that he did to me. As for the last part of your post towards me: Show nested quote +he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy. I want you to know that I am still gunning for ShiaoPi. I hope we don't have to lynch Mufaa, but he needs to know that my vote for him will stand until he starts posting or I think he'll get modkilled/replaced. Right now, I'm going to continue pressuring ShiaoPi. Even if we don't lynch him today, our late game will be much better if we can get him to post something other than his wishy-washy defensive play.
If you still have a problem with my defense that's fine. Quite honestly, I'm kind of expecting to get lynched tonight anyway. Maybe when/if I get lynched it will be for the best and people will actually take my accusations seriously, but I'm going to continue to play the best I can no matter what. I'll be back in a little while.
|
Now to respond to sciberbia's comment on me. See below:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 08:29 sciberbia wrote:One of s0lstice's posts really caught my attention. I just want to point it out now in case I'm dead in 10 minutes. In the minutes leading up to the deadline yesterday, hegeo made his final post: a giant, well-formed accusation of Release and Mordanis. At the time, me, milton, mordanis, shiaopi, and solstice were online. Everybody but solstice seemed a bit taken aback at the situation. Hegeo's post made him look town, but none of us were really sure what to think. Here are our reactions: me: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move.
Miltonkram: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:33 Miltonkram wrote:
Good night hegeo, if you flip town at the very least we can take your last post and it's accusations seriously. Mordanis: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:33 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 08:29 s0Lstice wrote:On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote:
Dude worst timing ever. You realize the deadline is in 5 minutes? This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Seeing as I can't even read your post in the next 4 minutes, there is no way we are lynching Release or Mordanis. He says right in the header that he's been working on this the entire time, and presumably wanted to get it in earlier. I wish he would have dropped a quick note to that effect, but it seems like he was pretty engrossed. But don't you have to copy the code from the thread for this type of thing? This is such a weird situation......... ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:37 ShiaoPi wrote:
Anyway, really waiting for the flip now... On May 24 2012 08:46 ShiaoPi wrote:
townflip, even blue.....
Mordanis and Release you should better prepare a damn good defense now s0sltice: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:41 s0Lstice wrote:
lol. if you think he is going to flip anything but green now you are nuts. posturing by you. On May 24 2012 08:55 s0Lstice wrote:
I guess that explains his mostly soft pressure. He sounded like a politician up until that last post, not sticking his neck out. My #1 newb fear was confusing blue for red. I find it suspicious that s0sltice was so sure hegeo is town, and had a quick explanation for hegeo's behavior. Only the mafia actually knew for a fact the he was town. I looked through solstice's filter and didn't find anything else I had an issue with, so I'm not prepared to say he is definitely scum, but it really strikes me as something suspcious. Again, just wanted to put it out there in case I die.
He says a few times throughout his final accusation post that he sees the deadline approaching as he's writing. He says it again after he posts it. It was clear to him that the lynch was going to happen, but he kept going. He even posted a quick rebuttal against Mordanis just before the lynch happened. There is zero motivation for scum to behave like he did here, knowing that they are gonna flip red in a matter of minutes (even seconds...his final rebuttal was after the deadline had passed). I thought this was pretty obvious...
Also, farewell and gg to sciberbia.
|
response to solstice #2:
You have to realize how early in the game i posted that first comment about "focus on this game." I wanted to get us talking. Besides that, he seemed to make a point independent of the reference, and tell a story with his reference to the other game.
I use my reference as a support for my statement; to clarify something that was otherwise considered insignificant or unclear. People had started to suggest that a mistake=Scum and i wanted to prove that wrong.
will continue reading because i haven't finished solstice's entire post yet.
|
Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence.
The most heated debate at the moment is between 3 candidates.
Release, Morsanis and miltonkram.
Here's my read on the events at the moment.
Hegeos got smashed, and his final post carries the most weight of anything in this entire thread.
Since this time both Morsanis and release have been scrambling to defend themselves and appear least scummy. By the fact that they are both quite defensive I feel that miltonkram is right in saying one of them is most likely scum. However miltonkram by posting this opinion in relationship to his former situation makes me feel like he's using this as a great opportunity to avert attention from himself over to shiaopi.
It is my opinion so far that miltonkram is mafia, and one of either Morsanis or release is also.
I also think that his repetition about the 50/50 things makes him look very scummy as there is little content for so much taking. I'll quote it in my big post this arvo if it's still relevant.
|
Don't want to submit something half-finished and rushed like I did D1. I'm exhausted after work and heading to sleep. See you all in the morning.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Sorry for the lack of activity before but as it is life happens.
We just lost sciberbia so we probably should take a closer look on his filter:
It mainly consists of pressure against Milton and some rebuttals with Mordanis and to a lesser extent release. Just before getting shot he also has a slight suspicion of solstice.
What does mafia stand to gain from eliminating him?
-Silencing a good and contributing townie, who was pretty much a high townread (at least in my opinion)
-Removing Pressure off his targets
-Making people suspicious of his targets
Looking at it only the first point is a given the rest is probably close to WIFOM, but something to keep in mind following the discussion.
Regarding our choice of lynch for day we now have as reasonable candidates Release/Mordanis/Milton and myself (I guess). I'll share my thoughts on the whole Release/Mordanis issue later, just wanted to say that we should not forget sciberbias contributions even though he got shot (maybe it should be even closer scrutinized because he was shot)
|
Hey all, I've been going through the entire thread, and I'm in the process of posting a fairly comprehensive analysis. You should be able to expect its completion sometime in the next few hours.
|
4 promised posts. I hope you all deliver. However, i can't help but feel that at least one of these has the purpose of clogging up the others. I won't judge yet, but i will be reading the posts very carefully.
Also, Milton is confusing me right now with his play + Show Spoiler +not calling him mafia at this point but literally just confusing
Also, Milton has made a sudden reappearance into the suspicion list. This feels like bandwagoning even though i have asked numerous times for people to think for themselves. The more i read into this, i more i feel like Milton is being put into the same situation that Hegeo was put in.
For milton: Present me with a solid case about why you think Mordanis or I (or someone else if their filter shows something) is a scum. I don't want to see any more of the light pressure that got you suspicious in the first place. I don't want to see any of the half-hearted shit Hegeo pulled on us. If you want me to firmly believe that you are town material, you will do as a i ask. I'm giving you what Hegeo wanted but didn't receive: The benefit of the doubt. Don't betray this sentiment.
|
Since people in this town apparently thought that Hegeo's argument was solid, I am going to go through the entire thread and then analyze everyone's filters. Unlike him, my main accuser is dead, so I will not be biased. One last thing: throughout my readthrough I've noticed that people have been quite lazy in their play. I really think that eveyone needs to read through again, to gain some perspective on what's happening right now. I was surprised.
+ Show Spoiler [Full thread 1st read] +As has already been talked about for ages, the thread begins with Release going batshit crazy. He puts FOSs on the only people who say anything of substance (Solstice begins with the typical "Liquidia! down w/ mafia", which Release ignores). It is during this time that Mufaa makes his first and only post. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. I think everyone will find this quite ironic. Up until this point, the only people who had any real activity were Release, Sciberia, Me, and somewhat Mufaa. This group did something startling for a newbie mini: they got the game rolling virtually instantly. Therefore, I will contend that these players are less scummy due to the activity in this part of the game. In the next section, we get some activity from Milton and Hegeo to kick things off. I respond to the topics from the last section, and then Golden and ShiaoPi come in. Milton, Golden and ShiaoPi take pretty safe stances: + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
First post: ezpz way to come off as pro town without any effort or risk. He just lists the players who haven't done anything yet. Could be scummy, could be lazy, could be paranoid. Second post: Same type of play as the first post. He repeats what others have said, but nothing that would be immediately risky. My evaluation of these posts is that he starts off as either incompetent/lazy town or mafia. Definitely worth more looking into. On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Show nested quote +Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies. On May 22 2012 20:45 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read.
I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia.
However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake).
Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post)
TL;DR
1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early.
2. Keep a personal list of reads.
3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly.
4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip.
My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep.
Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable.
Let me exactly communicate what Golden's first post was in 3 short sentences. Release should stop posting FOSs on every post with content. We should lynch D1. Lurkers are suspicious. Why would you post such a massive post to communicate this little information? It would have been confusing and weird to have posted it in as few words as I did, but maybe a short paragraph each would have sufficed. And he broaches no new ground. His second post features a handy dandy summarization. Of his four topics, one was already mentioned by Milton, the second was a derivative of the first, the third was basically "Release needs to cool down", which had already been mentioned several times, and the fourth was actually a decent argument. The fourth point is, however, of questionable value to town. If individual posts are not important, what is? Subjective feelings? To me this seems fairly suspicious. Golden did almost exactly what Milton did, he just wrote more words. And the whole town didn't see it. Hell, the mafia didn't even see it. I think that Golden deserves a fair amount of suspicion based on these posts. On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote:
Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. On May 22 2012 23:22 ShiaoPi wrote:
Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now.
On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
---snipped---
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion. Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. More of the same. As already pointed out, he just follows the same "safe" opening as Milton and Golden. Not much else to say. It seems suspicious that one player would try to do this shit, but 3 players did it at the exact same time. I'm sorry, but this is just embarrasing for us as a town. Release did a good job to get the thread moving, and 4 hours later these 3 have mired the conversation in repetitions of repetitions of repetitions. Come on guys. (Note: after this point I took a sleeping break) At this point Solstice makes his return. he posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote:
We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.
I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.
ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.
Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram , which is sort of contradictory when his only post before this was + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 08:41 s0Lstice wrote:
WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE
Be on notice mafia members, I will defend our town's honor to the last. Anyway, just wanted to say hi before bed. I'll be back in the wee hours of the morning, checking this thread when I should be working. . Anyways, back to the semi-present, what did he mean by sciberia generating discussion? Release basically started the discussion by stopping the "policy" debates and getting down to scum-hunting. And all Sciberia did was ask what our policy was going to be. And the whole thing doesn't really make sense to me; Solstice says that Sciberia did a good job, but still said that Sciberia was suspicious. Then he moves on to ShiaoPi, whom he criticizes for not being very active. Before this point he himself only had one post with 0 content! He mentions that scum make "quasi-useful posts" to look pro-town, but his own post is contradictory and somewhat illogical. After that he places a FOS on Milton because Milton said that sharing town reads were a bad idea. Sharing town reads benefits only mafia, so why would he pressure Milton and the rest of Liquidia to post town reads. This post strikes me as very suspicious. People agree with each other, and at this point there is no real pressure on anyone. Release has calmed down, and the hunt has regressed into a sort of lackadaisical mockery of effort. Everyone plays the game of "(I need to 'hunt scum' so people won't be suspicious of me) Uhh, I think people need to be more active and I'm especially concerned about X. Would X please defend himself" At which point everyone agrees that X isn't very suspicious. Finally someone puts out a weak case + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:01 sciberbia wrote:However, MILTON is currently one of my top two scumreads based on his posts:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. Here is his first post. In his first post, all he basically does is pressure other people to post and also say nothing. He also expresses disdain for lurkers/inactives, which is about the least controversial thing he could do. Seems a bit scummy. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
In his second post, he first tries to compliment the most active player at the time. He also tries to support the accusation against me, basically just repeating what Release said. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times. In this post, he continues to try to build suspicion against me, but he just says my post was "a bit suspect". Aside from the fact that before he said he seemed "quite scummy to him", he tries to not take too harsh a stance. Also, his statement to golden is bascially just a rehash of what hegeo said earlier and isn't too controversial. IN SUMMARY:I think milton is scummy: - he hasn't posted a ton but enough not to be lurky - he tried to pile supsicion on me but was wishy/washy about it - he isn't sticking his neck out on anything I say this is a weak case because it describes what most of the players had been doing. To this point, ShiaoPi, Golden (but with more words), Milton, Mufaa (although more on the lurky side), me (Although I was the first to post things, and then everyone else repeated them ad infinitum nauseamque), even Sciberia, had all fit every one of the criteria upon which Sciberia call Milton scummy. Except, Milton was the only one who cast even slight suspicion on Sciberia (I know Release did as well, but I think we can all agree that his first two FOSs were just a method of starting the scum hunt). I know Sciberia flipped town, but I have to take his last-minute accusation with a grain of salt because I just don't get why he chose Milton. Mercifully, there is little content left on the fifth page, so its on to the sixth. The 6th page starts out with Hegeo noticing that ShiaoPi is posting repetitions, missing (IMO) Milton and Golden (at this point Mufaa has disappeared, so he is more of a lurker than a repeater). One thing that he misses, however, is the fact that ShiaoPi has actively tried to stop the scumhunt. With only a weak amount of suspicion on Milton making up the entire fruits of the hunt to this point, ShiaoPi posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 03:00 ShiaoPi wrote:
@Sciberbia: The main thing about your suspicions on Milton is that nothing of the tidbits you gathered really struck me as: "well that's scummy"
Since it is Day1 pretty much everyone's postcount is relatively low (although Mufaa really stands out here), your second argument on piling suspicion on you, while being wishy washy about it seems like a typical day 1 accusation/FOS to me. There simply is not enough material for solid cases against others. I believe solid ones will only appear well into the 2nd half of day 1 when there is more information. Not sticking someone's neck out is in my opinion understandable. Although it may be a scum trait it could also be a blue role. In terms of getting people's attention, nobody besides you, has really done something to get everyone on it. So in regards to that everyone would be suspicious.
All in all I think that your case is just not "solid" enough without further information. Let's just wait for Milton's response, as that is something that will give us more info. . The only purpose of this post that I can find is that Shiao is trying to stall the hunt (which the rest of the town was doing a good enough job of already). I find this suspicious. The next post with content is mine. This is where I first accuse Hegeo. I feel it would be unfair to everyone to post my own thoughts at the time, so I will analyze it as objectively as possible. If you want my personal thoughts, just ask me and I'll be more than happy to share. I write + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:05 Mordanis wrote:First off, let me clarify my earlier statement to Release. He was being too frightening, and discouraging posting, so I told him to be slightly more trusting. Since his two FOSs, we've regressed to a community of trust. The way people have been talking, there just seems to be no urgency. I feel slightly responsible for this, so I'll do my best to mend the situation. Hegeo has been very suspicious. To restate what I've already said, he did not post in the first 5 hours (in and of itself harmless), but then posted 5 minutes after someone called him out for not posting. He offered an excuse, but the most obvious explanation is that he was watching the thread, and had a knee-jerk reaction to being called out. To believe he began writing before he was called out, and posted after a few minutes is, frankly, well, let's just say its not a very high order of probability. The next question is why he would watch the thread without posting. I can think of no reason a Townie would do this. Then he posts this + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:54 hegeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks Do you know more than the rest of us? Why couldn't Golden be mafia (and you)? Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there.
I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences. Admittedly, it is. But if I really wanted to defend myself at that time (against what I might add?), I would have mentioned the post. Truth is I read Miltonkram's post after I posted mine, from now on I will always refresh the thread before I post then. . This is right after I first state my misgivings about his timing. Do you see the passive aggressiveness? He defends himself in a strange way. He says virtually nothing save a small excuse for the the timing of his post. First statement is the most absurdly WIFOM I've ever seen. It was hilariously passive aggressive. Second statement was just agreement with someone else (which he stated), and the third was basically just an excuse. I have a hard time reconciling his behavior with being town. Then he posts this gem: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. If anyone wants my comprehensive analysis of this, I'll post if if I must. To me though, what I want to say is fairly simple. He praises Sciberia for "bringing the heat", and then spends the rest of the post explaining why Release's play has been suboptimal. In his next post, he even outright chastens Release: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:35 hegeo wrote:EBWOP: I forgot to say that I added the a),b) etc in italics and Mordanis already said that this kind of aggressiveness is not helping + Show Spoiler +(I was merely rephrasing this and putting it into my context). I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish. He has only posted shallow analysis in which he deflects attention from himself. He hasn't really helped at all in the scum-hunt. He has very suspicious activities. I'm very willing to change my mind, as we aren't even halfway through the first day. That being said, we need to have more and better analysis if we're going to find scum. I think it is wrong to assume that everyone is innocent just as it is wrong to assume everyone is innocent. We need to cultivate a healthy distrust of everyone, but at the same time we need to be able to work together to hunt scum. We need balance. We began too distrustful, we are now too trusting. We must find a middle ground to be successful. . The timing thing may have been overstated, but it is still supicious. And I prefer a case based on facts, which is exactly what the timing thing is. You can't dispute that he posted some filler content about 10 minutes after Milton mentioned that he hadn't posted. In my emotion, I overestimated the emotion in his post, leading to a certain level of suspicion. That being said though, I wasn't really committing to my accusation (evidenced by the fact that I didn't vote for him). There was still plenty of room for Hegeo to come out of the day unlynched, by contributing to the scumhunt. This early on, and with the last paragraph saying that my motive was to keep the town moving forward, I can't help but feel that there should be little scumminess to be found in this post. The next post is Release's first accusation of Hegeo. He writes + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo . My main problem with this post is when Release talks about blatant lies and that paragraph in general. This is the very essence of WIFOM. Unless I missed something, Hegeo never really accused Release of scumminess, just of bad town play. Release responds by saying that Hegeo is scum and afraid of the agressiveness? I don't understand where that came from. It is as if Release is afraid of any suspicion cast against him. Why would he respond with this paragraph? Because of that small paragraph, I'd rate this post as just slightly suspicious. After this we all bicker a bit about the various active cases (Milton, Shiao, Hegeo). The next post that really caught my attention is this one + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:@Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker. @Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote. Show nested quote +One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything. This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play. @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. c u soon . This is exactly like what I said earlier about Golden. He posts a lot of words, but behind what he says is just an agreement with what two players have said earlier. Zzzzzzzzzz. I'm doing this chronologically, so right now I'm going to officially (hope you read this and count this Marv ^^) ##FOS: Golden My reason for this is that to me this is the most logical way to play scum: ignore attention. Has anyone really thought of putting any suspicion? My fear is that we've been self-destructing while the mafia watch and laugh. (note) This is the last post on pg. 6 worth analyzing.
Alright, so this is taking a lot longer than I thought it would. I'm going to have to go to work in a little bit, but hopefully this (small) segment of the whole will be enough to spark some activity for the rest of the night, until I get back.
|
And to clear up my statement about work, I'll be around for about an hour, but I need to start getting ready now. I really need a break as well. So I may check in again once or twice, and I'll hopefully finish my D1 analysis before sleeping tonight.
|
About the section on me: I said blatant lies and backed it up with his intentional misquote of my phrase.
Next sentence is absolutely WIFOM. Completely useless i can't disagree with you there. But i do this to give people a sense of how i'm feeling. A bit emotional, if you will.
I attacked him after this because his reasoning was poor (and false in c).
+ Show Spoiler +dont' look into the timing and say "oh, you replied 10 minutes after he wrote." I stated prethread that this is when i get home.
|
|
|
What do you think of the rest?
|
My case on Golden
He's got two big problems in my eyes: scumhunting and accountability.
He's got 10 posts, so let's see what he has been doing to find scum. Instead of including all of his quotes, I thought it would be better for you the reader to open his filter and follow along with me.
Scumhunting
+ Show Spoiler +Posts 1 and 2: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Show nested quote +Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies. On May 22 2012 20:45 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read.
I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia.
However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake).
Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post)
TL;DR
1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early.
2. Keep a personal list of reads.
3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly.
4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip.
My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep.
Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable.
These are mostly fluff and policy discussion. In post 1, he criticizes Release on his play style, talks lynch policy, and says lurkers are bad. Pretty lightweight stuff. He also directs a softball of a question to Milton, which in his third post he attributes to wanting to get Milton to talk. It's fluffy, but his stated goal makes sense. Post 2 is really more policy discussion and "advice." His general tone is wait until you can craft a solid case on someone before pressuring them. His advice is not helpful at all. Of course everyone is going to be making reads for themselves. Early posts will naturally be content light, still it's something to keep in mind as you continue reading. The comfort level is very high early on, so it's easy for scum to post without fear. Post 3: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:@Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker. @Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote. Show nested quote +One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything. This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play. @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. c u soon He comments on two active cases. In the Milton case, he says it looks scummy to side with the prevalent moods in the thread, and to not add any new content while doing so. Note that he does exactly this in post 3. He catches a ride on these two building cases, and doesn't add much of consequence to them. Commenting on Hegeo, his ideas can be summed up as 'let's wait.' This reads as very cautious/non-commital. Post 4: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:05 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment.
this is an explanation of why he missed the deadline he set for himself. I'll return to this in the accountability section. Post 5: + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:
I want to post a few of my reads so far in the public arena, hopefully my separation from todays events will give me a different perspective and perhaps help in focusing from the 4 or so cases down to a smaller number.
1. Mufaa.
Obviously useless. I'm more than happy to give him the boot, however before we do i'd like to look into some other avenues of lynching because if he keeps up his current style and fails to post a vote before the day is out he will be modkilled. Why waste a lynch on someone who is most likely to get killed by moderators! haha. That being said if he posts intermittently just to hang into the game. then we instantly should usher him from the game as it's fairly obvious he's just hanging around to get his Mafia night kills in.
2. Miltonkram (open his filter in another window for this, it should be easy to follow and not too long.)
Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on.
next.
he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi).
next.
he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy.
3. Hegeo
I pretty much agree with Mordanis on this player, but i will reserve voting.
4. ShiaoPi
This player has been very defensive the whole game. It's hard to get a read from someone when they are being defensive. He does a good job of trying to avert suspicion from him. The problem with defensive play is that you start to get suspicious of the person accusing you.
Thoughts & Comments
Obviously i need to read a little more into the other players but these are some i have focussed on so far. Miltonkram sticks out to me the most out of the non-lurkers however.
I urge everyone, both people being defensive and offensive. To have a re-read over the person they are accusing/defending and try to see their other posts that arent aimed to you. Perhaps you will get a bit more insight into their position as remember there is 7 of us trying to figure this out!
##FOS Miltonkram This one is important. This is the first real meaty post he makes. He starts with Mufaa. Pressuring a lurker; yes, sometimes necessary, but also very safe. This is like 99% lean meat. His thoughts on Milton is where it gets interesting. First, have a look at Milton's post before he FoS' me and then ShiaoPi: On May 23 2012 06:16 Miltonkram wrote:
--snipped
With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make. He states his intention to lay out a couple of cases he has been building. He starts with me. I feel he had justification here, as I didn't really explain my mistake in reading comprehension as well as I could have in regards to an earlier post of his. When he FoS' me, I realize that what I thought was a satisfactory explanation in fact needed more. I flesh it out so we are on the same page, and he drops his FoS. Make what you will of the double derp fest that we had, but the takeaway message here is that Milton in the end was satisfied with my explanation. Now, with that resolved, he immediately moves on to his second case against ShiaoPi. He said he had a couple, so we should be expecting two, no? There is also no reason to wait between posting the case between me, and the case between ShiaoPi. If he does, he could be dinged for guaranteeing two cases and only being forthcoming with one. Following his ShiaoPi case, he places a cursory vote onto Mufaa. I see this as good thinking. If you are going to pressure a lurker, this is the way to do it. You can vote for them with a very simple case of: you are not talking, please do so. We as townies have many tools to apply pressure. We can use words, FoS, and our votes. Milton uses his words and FoS' against me and ShiaoPi, and pressures a lurker in an efficient and fluff-free way. I see this as good play. This is the major point that Golden has against Milton...that he is flighty and indecisive with his suspicions. Reading what you just read, do you think he has this right? I feel he got a fair amount of town cred with his point here, because he put words to the thoughts going through many people's heads on Milton. Looking back, it is undeserved. I think this is why he has avoided any serious scrutiny yet. Next he gives his thoughts on Hegeo. Actually it's just a single thought: I agree with Mordanis, but I'm not going to vote right now. No reasoning for why he agrees, or why he doesn't agree enough to vote. Lastly he gives his read on ShiaoPi. Here is his read: I have no read, he is playing defensively. Pure filler. In his thoughts and comments section, he admits that he needs to spend more time on his reads. Ok, I'm glad he is addressing this. When I saw this I am inclined to cut him some slack. We will return to this later. He finishes with an FoS on Milton. This is coincides with his post and is expected. Post 6) + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:27 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@ShaoPi your #FOS of s0lstice seems to be more in retaliation to his argument against you that of any solid evidence.
That being said.
@s0lstice, i can't see any reason why you're going for ShaoPi.
both of you seem to be tunnelling eachother for knee-jerk voting the other. could each of you please write in dot points your arguments. I just need a simplified summary of your cases as i'm having trouble following them.
@Miltonkram. Thank you for your swift reply. I understand that you can now see the holes in your play and it looks like you're ready to get into the swing of posting a bit more content. To get that started.. can you clarify your stance on ShaoPi for me in dot points also.
i'm still waiting to see the community's response to my post on you and i'd like some discussion before i remove or act on my #FOS. your comments have been noted.
This post is filler, and creates more filler. He says me and ShiaoPi are tunneling eachother. The presumed intent of saying this is to stress: stop tunneling! Except after this he encourages us both to restate our entire argument against eac hother. This seems like a contradiction, and as said, encourages the creation of more filler (rehashed arguments). He also cuts Milton some slack, saying he recognizes that Milton has realized some holes in his play, and is ready to contribute more. For further slack, Milton is to post his views on ShiaoPi. He leaves his FoS on Milton until he gets more input from the community, and presumably from Milton himself. Post 7) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:35 O.Golden_ne wrote:I'm liking that concise post sciberbia. Goodluck in exam. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:13 sciberbia wrote:
It's obvious to me that those people under suspicion will push for a Mufaa lynch, just because they view him as an easy lynch and not too controversial. I'm not really going to hold it against you for pushing Mufaa, but let's face it (sorry for the hypothetical Release), if mufaa isn't mafia, who do the mafia have a really easy time getting mislynched? I agree with this point. Mufaa is a very easy option for us to lynch day one. Consider that he may be used as an escape option for the Mafia in day one. I personally think he will be modkilled. If Mufaa isn't modkilled i'll be super suspicious of him. BECAUSE, the only thing that can him from a modkill is a vote. Lurking that hard, followed by a vote is good grounds for a vig snipe or a day 2 lynch. I'm out for while. Lurker talk. The message he is conveying here is that if Mufaa swoops in and votes at the last minute, he will be super suspicious of him. Obvious...useless filler. Post 8) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 06:32 O.Golden_ne wrote:
thank god i didn't miss the deadline. I went to sleep and forgot to vote.
I'm going to stand by my earlier posts about miltonkram.
but before i vote i want to say that i will change to Hegeo in the case that we dont get enough votes for a lynch, i like Mordanis and Releases argument on him.
In the case the miltonkram flips town, i'm going seriously question ShiaoPi however.
@Hegeo can you please swap your vote of Mufaa, he is most likely modkilled.
##Vote: Miltonkram
He casts his vote for the lynch, and it's Milton. He says he's going to stand by his earlier statements. Remember he said he was going to withhold judgement until he gets new info. Yet, he makes no reference to any info that affected his decision. Also, note that Milton has obliged his earlier request and shared his thoughts on ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post. + Show Spoiler +Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler +Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler +Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression. Golden pays no attention to this either, except for an indirect reference in that he will be suspicious of ShiaoPi of Milton flips town. We still have no idea if he even read what Milton wrote. Post 9+10) + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 19:00 O.Golden_ne wrote:woah, Doctor killed. we're really behind now i'll mull over hegeo's final post before day two, it's really hard to draw links between players so early. but alot of what he has said works out. also Release, i dont think there was much of fiasco at the end of day one. the voting was fairly logical and it didnt seemed too rushed from anyone. people just switched over the the mis-lynch of hegeo. On May 25 2012 12:26 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence.
The most heated debate at the moment is between 3 candidates.
Release, Morsanis and miltonkram.
Here's my read on the events at the moment.
Hegeos got smashed, and his final post carries the most weight of anything in this entire thread.
Since this time both Morsanis and release have been scrambling to defend themselves and appear least scummy. By the fact that they are both quite defensive I feel that miltonkram is right in saying one of them is most likely scum. However miltonkram by posting this opinion in relationship to his former situation makes me feel like he's using this as a great opportunity to avert attention from himself over to shiaopi.
It is my opinion so far that miltonkram is mafia, and one of either Morsanis or release is also.
I also think that his repetition about the 50/50 things makes him look very scummy as there is little content for so much taking. I'll quote it in my big post this arvo if it's still relevant.
Post 9 is a hegeo reaction post. It's neutral. Post 10 is a summation of his thoughts on current events. He captures the general mood that release and mordanis are in a little hot water, and the rest is mostly WIFOM on Milton. The complete picture...I see the summation of everything he has done, and I certainly do not see a dedicated scum hunter. His only real try was on Milton, and when dissected, it doesn't seem like much of a try at all. What I see is a creator of filler, and someone who is neither hot nor cold, but always lukewarm. Someone who seems unaffected by the ticking clock, counting down to the death of the town. All together it seems very, very scummy.
Accountability
+ Show Spoiler +I add this now. Accountability creates trust. It makes it easier for other townies to read you as green A good townie feels accountable for his own actions, only makes promises he can keep, and makes the most of the time he has to play. Golden does none of this. Lets start here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. Five hours comes and goes. Here is his next post: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:05 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment.
He addresses why he wasn't around to fulfill his promise. A good townie does this. He also deserves some slack for the first occurance. A good townie would also note to themselves here that maybe I should be more careful about when/what I promise to post, considering how busy I am lately. He should be cautious about putting himself in a position to break another promise. He doesn't do this: + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 12:26 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence. It's been 7 hours and counting at the time I'm writing this. He could have legit gotten too busy to post, but this is strike two, and it's worth noting. There are other occurances, and I've covered most of them in my first section. He promises to be most active in the evening in his first post. He was on the first evening, but on the eve of the first lynch, he popped in to vote and then dropped off the face of the earth. He says he will consider additional info on Milton before making his decision to vote for him, but then votes without saying why other than trusting his original read. He claims interest in Milton's opinion on ShiaoPi, then has no reaction to it when Milton obliges him. He asks myself and ShiaoPi to restate our cases against each other, then ignores them completely. In Post 5, he admits to needing more info to flesh out his opinions, but then doesn't refine his opinion on really anyone but Milton (and to what effect? his refinement was to cut him some slack, and then he retracted it wordlessly when he voted for him). This is a trend. He does not hold himself accountable for his actions.
Conclusions:
+ Show Spoiler +The portion on scumhunting stands on it's own. He isn't really trying to find scum at all, because he is the scumdog millionaire. The section on accountability does not stand on it's own. It can be explained as bad townie play. Here is the crux of the argument, the thing that links to two together. A townie who is flaky, and is never around when he says he will be, would still make his best effort to find scum with the time he DOES have available. I think I have clearly shown that Golden does not do this.
There you have it folks. Thoughts?
|
EBWOP: Regarding you all opening your filters and following along, I ended up taking the time to include Golden's posts in my post, so this is not necessary if you don't want to.
|
Alright town, this is the first of my two reads on the players that were gunning for hegeo:
Release
He started the game fairly aggressive out of the gate. He showed he was willing to pressure people, almost too willing, because I was starting not to take his pressure seriously. Other than that he did his best to cut through the generic fluff questions that sometimes bog down early newbie games (Lynch v. no-lynch? Should we roleclaim early? etc.). True, some of the stuff he posted was fluff, such as this,
+ Show Spoiler +First bold: Logical, a bit obvious, but should be stated.
Second bold: Are you saying that townies will always show townie posts? This is certainly not the case. Townies can and do make mistakes, which is probably the cause of 99% of mislynches in mafia. Honest =/= True. For example, if you are being "honest" in this post, you have clearly made a "mistake." Is that to suggest that you are Mafia?
A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
but almost all his other content early D1 seems like aggressive townie play to me.
Moving on to N1/D2:
There are two scummy actions from him. First, he brings attention back on me. If he's mafia, it's because I'm an easy target that he won't get much flak for targeting. If he's town, it's because he doesn't want the town to forget my case in the commotion. There's no sense reading too much into it. Everyone thinks I'm scum and a healthy town environment shouldn't let me crawl between the floorboards. His second scummy action was in response to my post
+ Show Spoiler +I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone?
in which I'm explaining the assumptions for D2 lynch that I would be working from. He posts this in response
+ Show Spoiler +Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch?
Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched.
This is so full of shit and scum.
Mafia + Mafia: No. I have already posted on what the Mafia were actually doing when i was roasting hegeo:
The Mafia were trying to split our attention between two cases (Hegeo vs Milton/ShiaoPi/Solstice). Then you post some WIFOM filler (not a big deal since you actually posted some analysis)
Townie + Townie: Who's been playing scummy since hegeo's reveal? Mordanis knee-jerked, not me.
I posted an analytical response to hegeo's post and why the new guy was playing rather poorly. Also, i was the only one to point out that Hegeo's post mysteriously did not have a #5.
Townie + Mafia: Mordanis and i both had our own separate cases against Hegeo. There was a small overlap, but we had our own ideas, just against the same person. When that happens, it tends to look bad for that person.
Note that i am not refuting either of TT or TM yet, just pointing out the misinformation you are posting.
And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you?
Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself.
##FOS: Milton
which seems like it could be a delaying tactic, keeping me from following his case based on my assumptions. Since I didn't outright state my goal with that post, (to lay a foundation for the analysis I'm doing now) I will give him the benefit of the doubt. He could very well have mistook the intention of my post. I post this now because if Release is scum, these are a few points of play that look scummy to me. It is important that we continue to keep an eye on him.
The most important part of the post I'm making now is right here: I can't make a strong case for Release being mafia, but I'm confident I can make a case against Mordanis. I've been reading through his filter for the past couple hours, and I've made decent headway into my analysis of his actions. Once again, I believe one of the duo (Release, Mordanis) is scum. I'm pretty sure Mordanis is the scum half of that duo based on what I've read in his filter. My next post will include my full accusations against him.
|
Damn, I'm getting called into work on my day off.
@ s0Lstice- I think your post has merit, but I will need to re-read it a few times to make sure it holds up.
My accusations of Mordanis are only half complete. I will finish them after I get back from work and before I go to sleep. Also, where the hell is skware? I hope we didn't replace a lurker just to get another one.
|
@ mordanis about the rest of that post:
You pointed out an interesting problem: We have way too many people suspect because they are not posting useful information.
This goes back to my earlier post which i said: If you're not going to post anything useful, why feel obligated to post?
This seems like a dead end because Hegeo was the one who refuted this, but i need to look more carefull to see who else promoted non-useful posts.
+ Show Spoiler +I was much more active earlier and i'm not going to be able to keep that up. I am on some medication and it makes me kind of high and it makes my reading comprehension low, so i need to read more carefully before posting.
|
Just a quick housekeeping post.
Mordanis: I think you have the right idea going back to the drawing board. Release has also encouraged this, and so do I. I read what you have posted so far, and what I see is you being suspicious of everyone basically (having refreshed just before posting this, I see Release has just said the same). I think this is caused by the front to back thread read. This is causing every player's worst moments to stick in your head and little else. My suggestion is to look at each person individually, via filters. A front to back thread read is useful, but should be secondary to this.
SciaoPi: Day 1 has been over for awhile. I've been going over and over your filter. Your final response to me was confusing, in that it stood in stark contrast to everything else you posted. It was crystal clear, well thought out, and humble. It also took some big brass balls to unFoS me when I was still actively pursuing you. This showed self-awareness and also a healthy measure of trust. I said I wanted to continue our interaction, but had a change of heart after mulling over this:
On May 24 2012 07:57 ShiaoPi wrote:
--snipped
I lacked and probably still lack according to some people content but it really is hard to get some content in, if I have to defend myself all the time.
I wanted to see what you could contribute with a little space to work with. I see you posted that you've been busy, but you're credibility will suffer the longer you go without utilizing this space. My read on Golden is currently stronger than my read on you, and as such...
##unFoS: ShiaoPi
##FoS: O.Golden_ne
Miltonkram: I spelled out my views on Mordanis and Release in my post concerning hegeo's final accusation. The framework you are basing your analysis on seems sound enough. With everything else I've been doing, I haven't gone through Mordanis' filter by itself in a little while. I plan to do this so I can add/comment to your analysis post.
|
EBWOP: I cant believe I screwed up you're and your
|
@ s0Lstice- spoilered because it's all fluff, forgive me for the terrible joke
+ Show Spoiler +Their their s0Lstice, don't be too hard on yourself, their their.........hehehe
|
This is part two of my analysis. The subject today:
Mordanis
Analysis of his D1 play:
The back and forth between Release and Mordanis at the start of D1 has been well documented. It ended well, pushed through discussion of town policy pretty quickly, and got us scumhunting about as fast as could be hoped. The only thing people may have missed was this little gem.
---snip
First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^
The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why.
Note the weak tone he takes with Release. He first thanks Release for the FOS. I see possible townie and scummy motives for this move. Scummy because he thinks overtly welcoming suspicion will lessen the pressure on him, or townie because the FOS really did help move forward discussion. Either way it's a weird play. The really good part is his apology. Let's think, what does he have to apologize for? Why would he apologize for this?-->+ Show Spoiler +So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks
Next let's take a look at the times Mordanis's emotions come into play:
What were the circumstances of Mordanis's first emotional response to something? Sciberbia had posted this
+ Show Spoiler +My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo:
Your primary accusation and most tangible peace of evidence is that hegeo's first post was 10 minutes after Milton called out the three people left to post. I don't find this very inciminating. If hegeo was mafia and worried about looking like a lurker, he'd just have posted a fluffy sorta "hi all" first post, similar to Milton, solstice etc. If he's mafia and not that worried about looking like a lurker, why would he panic so much? It just doesn't make much sense to me. If you were mafia, would you watch the thread, wait until someone calls you out as lurking, and then post 10 minutes later? Seems dumb. I see where you're coming from, and I agree it's a bit fishy, but I guess I'm just more willing to believe it's a coincadence than you are. And I liked the actual content of his first post.
Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy.
I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia.
Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi.
Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching.
I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations.
which amounted to questioning the reasoning behind Mordanis's pressure on hegeo, to which Mordanis responds
@Sciberia
IDK how many games you've played, but this is not a very high level game. It is not even remotely inconceivable that an inexperienced mafia could panic, and then make an excuse for why he acted that way. I also included a fair amount of analysis of his posts, which seemed scummy to me. Compare my post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi. I have one solid fact and a lot of solid analysis. Hegeo just points out that ShiaoPi has a lot of filler content. Usefull information, but not very deep analysis. Also, I was posting that as much to generate discussion as much as to gather support for a lynch. It's early on in the game, but if we don't start throwing some accusations around then we'll be mired in inactivity, while the mafia picks us off one by one. And I don't see anyone you are considering lynching in your post.
About Golden, I played with him in our last game. It's nice to see a familiar face. That's the only reason why. Basic human needs and such.
The last four lines are jumbled between what I said and what other people said. I didn't understand them. If you'd clarify I'd love to comment on them as well.
One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything.
with a decent, but not great rebuttal of sciberbia's points. How did he perceive anger in sciberbia's post? What does calling the post "passive-aggressive" accomplish him? One thing it does is draw attention away from the actual content of sciberbia's post (calling Mordanis's case on hegeo based too much on coincidence) and brings it onto the emotional elements of the two players posting. The second case of Mordanis's emotion is in response to hegeo after hegeo (badly) tries to defend himself. Still hegeo's defense wasn't completely terrible. I think Mordanis once again saw information in a post that didn't fit in with his plan and thus distracted from it by simplifying the offending post and calling it passive-aggressive. This does two things, in the mind it amplifies the passive-aggressive parts of what hegeo had written and lessens the importance of any logical points hegeo may have made.
Final point on Mordanis's play:
This point may be circumstantial, and I believe Release may have already made it. Forgive me if that's the case, I'm incredibly tired and I want to get some sleep. Mordanis pointed out hegeo's play first, but Release was the first to actually vote for hegeo. Think about it from a scum's perspective, pointing out a non-contributing or suspicious player is great to gain townie cred, but being the first to vote for a townie seems like it will bring intense scrutiny. This may be approaching WIFOM, but at this point I'm so tired I just hope my points make sense. Thoughts on this town? Any explanations for your play Mordanis?
|
##Vote: Release
Going to sleep/work probably wont be back til after the vote
|
EBWOP: Obviously the knee-jerk after hegeo's big reveal seemed pretty scummy. The one thing that's causing me pause about my case after all this is Mordanis's last big post. You all know the one, the really, really long one with all the spoilers. Skimming it I didn't think it was very good. Actually reading through it, I think Mordanis makes some damn good points, and I'm not sure whether they fit in with the picture I have of him. Maybe the picture will fit together in the morning when I have my head on straight. Night all, I'm finally going to sleep.
|
Hold the phone. Seriously skware? You actually think Release is mafia after everything we've been posting and you've just lurked all day JUST LIKE YOUR PREDECESSOR?!! I'm so pissed and confused right now my brain is literally going to melt.
|
@s0lstice.
1. Scumhunting: You're saying that i havent been searching for scum? I've read as much of this thread as you have. Are you saying that i'm not scumhunting because i have focussed on a single player instead of flipping between several all the time. Accusing everyone? It's my opinion that there are different roles of town, and not every town needs to be flinging shit at everyone. Whether or not Release is a town, he's been doing this just fine. I initially got a town vibe from him but because of the Mordanis/Release link i'm still uncertain of his loyalty. I digress.
2. Accountability: yes i must admit i did plan on posting a more in depth post on the issue. And in hindsight its very stupid i didnt because now my case i easily tainted if i was on the right track. eg. if YOU s0lstice and milton were mafia this is a perfect deflection, "omg, where is your argument on milton.. you must be making filler"
if you were to pick me for accountability can i point you to this filter:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=154712
if anyone should be accountable it should be Mufaa's replacement. he has a total of 4 very small posts. perhaps there is a reason mufaa wasn't modkilled.
my argument on Milton still stands. i should be online for a little longer.
|
i just refreshed and saw Miltons post on skware. which makes me want to re-read his filter.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
It has taken quite a while for me to finally get to posting this, but sorry I was busy.
In order to look at the Release/Mordanis issue I chose to start reading through the filters again, especially their defense against hegeo's last post. I assume that everyone still has hegeo's case in mind while reading this.
Reading through Release's filter, I believe everyone sees the aggressive stance he has since the beginning of the game. Nothing wrong with that initially. He is the first to actually cast a vote as a response to some soft pressure of hegeo. This seems a bit of like an OMGUS move especially considering that he pushes one of hegeo's arguments away as "blatant lies" (+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... On May 22 2012 14:36 Release wrote:
EBWOP: ##FOS: Sciberbia ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo
So for now Release seems to me like a case of zealous townie, who sadly went after the wrong target.
On Topic of Mordanis:
In his filter his posts against hegeo often included the accusation of "passive-aggressiveness". I still have no clue what he means with it and I certainly do not see it in hegeo's posting. Seems like a case of adding up arguments when he ran out of things with solid backing to point out. Concluding from that you could say he found somebody easy to attack to maybe get a mislynch happen. Adding weight to that train of thought is his post in which he calmly claims to ignore hegeo. This is stupid for the simple reason that town wants to get information via pressuring or lynching. If you ignore your tunneltarget, how can you gather information from it? For that the following quote is also useful:
+ Show Spoiler +And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.
Once he has begun actively pushing the case against hegeo, he pretty much ignored his responses and found a way to even not need to answer hegeo at all.
The strongest point against him is the ridiculous "knee-jerk" we got from him right after hegeo's post: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:29 Mordanis wrote:"Also, no interaction between these two in the thread" + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:On May 22 2012 08:44 Mordanis wrote:
So my last game began with a discussion of whether to vote or not that wasn't very productive. We got lucky and scored a good D1 lynch, but it felt very, well, luck based. So I'll start this out by saying that if we don't lynch today, we'll probably be in a really shitty situation. In short, I am for a vote today. Also, it's good to be working together with Golden again! For Liquidia!
Is this day cycle going to be an extra couple of hours? I only ask because it was in my first game and I'd like to make sure what the situation is. Thanks You say that you are for a vote, but you state that your other vote was luck based. Considering you said "very luck based", doesn't that mean to say that we are not going to experience the same luck? If we don't experience the same luck, we will very much end up lynching a townie, which makes your "for a vote" seem like you want to lynch a townie. Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this game and find out ways for pointing out scum rather than ways not to. This seems more like filler. The useful part of your post can be summarized by: We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental. ##FOS: Mordanis First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why. The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town. As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching. As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] +Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention.
And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well. Note the spoiler.... Normally I wouldn't post much content between day cycles, but this seemed a little too not-factual.
This post makes no sense at all. Even if we believe him: + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 08:37 Mordanis wrote:
No, I just opened a few spoilers, and that stuck out at me. It was so wrong I couldn't help but correct it. It is the equivalent of me saying that Hegeo never mentioned Mufaa. I couldn't help but post that in case people review that in the night and take his statements at face value without reviewing the thread. At least that one was a bald-faced lie. So remember that everyone, when you read it. He accuses the 2 people who were on him from the start, you can expect some bias.
It is nonsensical to build up his defense around this tiny tidbit, when there is a lot of other (and weightier) argumentation in that post. Seems like a total panic move on being called out.
Now taking his more "collected" response into focus:
He points out several weak points in hegeos case (e.g.the whole sciberbia/sciberia thing) and does an overall good job of defending. Nevertheless the "knee-jerk"-first-reaction is still incredibly scummy. He defends it by quoting emotion, which he before used as one of his arguments for the lynch on hegeo. Weak defense regarding that in general. To be honest if he had not had that reaction I would have probably discarded hegeo's case now as "bad townie play", in which I had put him anyway.
Going on to Mordanis' post on day 1. Basically he just posts a giant repetition of the sequence of the events. He nudges in a point here in there (an fos on Golden, with a weakly outlined suspicion, some suspicions on me, which I will answer later and some more counterpressure against Release), but overall it is a useless summary of know events, which make him seem contributing without doing much in reality.
Conclusively I would say that Mordanis has been the more suspicious part of the Release/Mordanis case and therefore should be pressured to talk more about his reasoning as he has already offered. So ##FOS: Mordanis.
@Mordanis:
You said that I was trying to stop a scumhunt. From your point of view this might have seemed reasonable if you ignored the fact that he flipped town. I stated my reasons for not joining the pressure on hegeo, I read him as weak/bad Townie (which he was), so I really do not understand your suspicion here. Grasping at straws to deflect attention?
|
Okay i'm not sure how this is going to sit with everyone, but since i need to get a little more active than i have been AND its the weekend i'm going to say that i re-read over Mordanis's entire refutation of the Hegeo's final post.
I think that Mordanis and Release are victims of circumstance in this situation.
Mordanis's posts strike me as well thought out and very analytical, especially in his rebuttal of his link to Release.
Release; i've got a new-town vibe from him from the get go. Not afraid to get his hands dirty for the sake of the town. I'm however usually a little more reserved, i think town has places for both our kinds of players.
I also find it strange that 2 people have posted their cases on Mordanis so swiftly. Shiaopi and Miltonkram. I don't think that it's too far of a leap to presume that Mordanis is a very easy case today. It's worth a little thought.
Also, if there isn't a solid unified case today then Mufaa/Skware is a must-lynch. This is a useless player =/
thoughts? the deadline approaches.
|
|
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I posted my case on Mordanis (or more my read since I am only applying pressure, not calling for a lynch outright) as I finally had the time to do so. That it coincides with Milton is getting annoying to me. I said I lacked time and now that I have posted it, it again looks like I am mirroring him....As I do not have a timemaschine to get more freetime whenever I want to I cannot do anything about it right now.
Just putting it out for now: Milton is a really unsure read for me now. His posts on Release and Mordanis were good, his play has improved from day 1, but I still cling to my earlier pressure on him, regarding weak cases etc. etc. So his day 2 has given him some cred in my eyes but not enough to swipe away the suspicion.
Furthermore I actually believe that solstice has gotten quite some good points on you golden. In your response to him you acknowledge most of the problems he pointed out in your play, but there is no explaination going on and then you go in with a simple vote on Milton? I would like to get some more reasoning for that.
|
@ Golden
Is that your defense? If I may, let me sum it up. You think your scumhunting style is simply different than everyone else. Apparently you don't see the point of pressuring multiple people. Everything else is wishy-washy filler in your first statement. In your second statement, you claim scum is taking pressure off themselves by focusing on you and calling your content filler.
Let me refute your statements. If you only ever pressure one person, how do you know who the other scum is? Tunneling one player does not give the town all the information it needs. You also conveniently ignore the main point brought against you by s0Lstice and Mordanis. You have only pressured people who already have pressure on them. You haven't brought new information to the table. Why? If you're calling that play style, I'd say you have a pretty scummy play style. In regards to your second point, if you are town of course mafia is deflecting pressure onto you. That's an easy assumption to make and it's no substitute for a strong defense. Overall, I'd say your defense is absurdly weak.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
EBWOP: skware if you are reading, get your ass into the thread and give us reasons for your vote...
|
EBWOP: This is in response to this post, in case it's not clear.
+ Show Spoiler +@s0lstice. 1. Scumhunting: You're saying that i havent been searching for scum? I've read as much of this thread as you have. Are you saying that i'm not scumhunting because i have focussed on a single player instead of flipping between several all the time. Accusing everyone? It's my opinion that there are different roles of town, and not every town needs to be flinging shit at everyone. Whether or not Release is a town, he's been doing this just fine. I initially got a town vibe from him but because of the Mordanis/Release link i'm still uncertain of his loyalty. I digress. 2. Accountability: yes i must admit i did plan on posting a more in depth post on the issue. And in hindsight its very stupid i didnt because now my case i easily tainted if i was on the right track. eg. if YOU s0lstice and milton were mafia this is a perfect deflection, "omg, where is your argument on milton.. you must be making filler" if you were to pick me for accountability can i point you to this filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=154712if anyone should be accountable it should be Mufaa's replacement. he has a total of 4 very small posts. perhaps there is a reason mufaa wasn't modkilled. my argument on Milton still stands. i should be online for a little longer.
|
We need to come to a consensus on skware quickly. We have less than 5 hours until deadline. skware is a pure policy lynch at this point, we simply don't have enough information to make a case for him or against him. Since he stated that he likely won't be back until after the deadline we need to plan for the worst case scenario, that he won't make it back in time.
We don't gain much info from him if he flips either way, under that line of reasoning he could very well be scum. Thoughts?
Golden's defense does not satisfy me, and that leads me to believe he's having difficulty figuring out a way to defend his actions. With that in mind
##Vote: O.Golden_ne
If we decide that skware is the policy lynch I will switch my vote to him. Mordanis, I want to hear a defense from you, otherwise I will consider switching my vote to you.
|
I've read Mordanis' filter, and I came away from it thinking the same thing I did when I was analyzing hegeo's magnum opus. He starts out polite and unsure of himself. He apologized without the situation really warranting it. I grant that this is a little strange. I think there was OMGUS with hegeo, and there are certainly moments where he gets emotional.
Milton, your read on Mordanis draws a lot on these emotions. The take home message, as I see it, is that Mordanis used emotional play to distract us from points being made against him. Yes, this is possible, but I ask you, is it more likely than this scenario: Mordanis is a newbie just like the rest of us, and started the game sure that he wanted to do his part, but was unsure on how to go about it. He waffles around a bit, tries to be pro-town and makes nice. When some early flak comes from hegeo, he becomes incredulous, and overreacts to it. He feels genuinely slighted, because he knows he's green, and hegeo's suspicions are misguided. It's like hegeo came up to him and declared that 2+2=5.
I know I felt this way the first time I was accused, and it's difficult to stay objective.
Put simply, day 1 was a lot of OMGUS towards hegeo. That said, hegeo's defense left a lot to be desired, and really only encouraged the perpetuity of Mordanis' behavior.
|
Now for Golden. Your defense is seriously paltry.
Your defense on scumhunting is that you scumhunt differently than everyone else. That's correct, the difference is that you only care enough about it to form one garbagey case against one player, absent of any outside information. You basically mailed it in, voted (citing only your own weak input), and then left. You don't care because you are scum, and know who the scum are. You don't care to stick around for the lynch results, because you knew it was a win for you either way we went (milton/hegeo).
Your defense on your accountability is: yes I haven't been accountable, but what if you and Milton are scum and WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM. Also, look at this new lurker we have! Isn't he terrible?
I am thoroughly, 100% convinced.
##Vote: O.Golden_ne
|
S0Lstice, I see what you're saying, and the fact that I'm a little unsure on Mordanis is why I haven't voted him until I hear a defense. Golden's case looks more concrete, plain and simple. In defense of my point though, look at the situations Mordanis's emotions come up in. They just seem a bit too strategic to me.
Also, I really want to get the skware situation decided quickly. What are your thoughts on it? Let's get this out of the way now so we can focus on solid cases again.
|
First thing I said to him is that I was terrified of the fact that if he was mafia, he had a free day of lurking. He has had plenty of time to catch up, and day 2 was his tryout period for me. He failed.
My ideal situation is that we lynch golden today, and he's the godfather. Then it'd be cool if any blues we have left focus on skware, by either vig shooting him or DT checking him. Either way, he will be largely dealt with.
If golden is not the godfather, but some other mafia role, then its more complicated. In this situation I would still consider lynching skware.
You know how life goes with best laid plans however. Basically, yes I wouldn't mind killing him tomorrow on the strength of what we know about him, but I think we are better off with Golden today
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
We still have some time to the deadline. I am still hoping that Release and Mordanis have the chance to see the posts and make an opinion on it. Also let's give golden the benefit of doubt. His defense was scrappy, but I would really like to get another reaction from him before just lynching him without giving him a chance to defend against the now increasing pressure.
A lynch on skware would be totally fine with me as well. he is almost as bad a lurker as mufaa was and I still do not get his vote on Release without some proper reasoning.
I do hope though that Mordanis and Release might be able to see it and maybe give their opinion on the current state of the vote. Since we need 4 to lynch at least one of them has to come online and place his vote or we will end up with a no-lynch.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
EBWOP: I just saw that I was repeating myself in my post, but nevermind I guess you all got that I really want to get their opinions
|
I as well would like to see what Release and Mordanis have to say.
On giving Golden the benefit of the doubt..I wasn't 100% sure on him when I posted my case. He had the benefit of the doubt with me until he posted his defense. I was ready to read what he had to say to defend himself, consider it objectively, and compare it to my read. To me though, his defense was just so far off the mark. Maybe I'm not being lenient enough, but I dont think so this time.
I understand that you want to see more from him, and that's fine. So do I. Everyone will have to decide for themselves.
|
Mods, can I (humbly) ask you to line out sciberbia on page 1 player list? thank you!
|
Sorry everyone, I got home from work a lot later than I expected, and passed out until now.
@ShiaoPi: Your main points against me are that I was one of the leaders of the lynch against Hegeo, that I had a knee-jerk response to Hegeo's accusations, and that one of me and release is scum. First, I was active in my case against Hegeo because I thought he was the strongest case we had. When I read through again, with hindsight, I could see some things that may have lessened my case against him, but I still feel that his play was the scummiest. And I also created a lot of information by following through on my case. Admittedly it is always a mistake to lynch a townie, but if you automatically lynch one of the leaders of the case that brings about the mislynch, you end up with no town activity. I made a mistake, but it was a necessary one for the town.
About my knee-jerk: I read through like 2 spoilers before going to work, and I could already see that the case was very weak. As my much longer review shows, there is virtually no factual foundation for his claim. The logic he then uses doesn't make sense either (If playing similarly to another player is scummy, then Shiao must be scum because he keeps following Milton). I could already see that the case wasn't heading anywhere that should be harmful, so I off-handedly showed that one of his facts was not a fact. Look through my post where I look at his accusations, and tell me if you really think that was still a solid logical argument. If not, then I don't see any reason for suspicion.
Finally, the whole thing about either me or Release being scum needs to end. This is the definition of a false dichotomy. The only basis for this argument is Milton's post + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote:
I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone?
@ whoever said my analysis of the first 6 pages was simply a summarization: it wasn't. I looked at every major post in those pages and analyzed it to see how scummy it appeared. For the most part, all I got was that, at least initially, the case against Milton was mostly unfounded, and that Golden was being very suspicious. Perhaps I should have posted a short blurb telling what change happened in my estimation of each player. It was still fairly good analysis, and, as opposed to most of the talk in this thread, was based entirely on facts.
@ ShiaoPi: My analysis was that only one post, not you as a player, was slightly scummy. I did the same for several other players. If you only seem slightly scummy, then you're in a pretty good place. Right now, I see no reason to build a case against you.
|
One last thing: I'm going to hold off for just a little while more while I go through Golden's filter. He seems like the best case, but I want to make sure that he is before I cast a vote against him. I promise I'll be here in plenty of time to cast a vote though.
|
On May 26 2012 20:43 skware wrote:
##Vote: Release
Going to sleep/work probably wont be back til after the vote
may i ask why?
During day 1 after reflecting on my push against Hegeo, i realized that we had two independent cases. I realized this was probably the Mafia's intention (to split our attention). now you post this
+ Show Spoiler +On May 26 2012 21:29 O.Golden_ne wrote:@s0lstice. 1. Scumhunting: You're saying that i havent been searching for scum? I've read as much of this thread as you have. Are you saying that i'm not scumhunting because i have focussed on a single player instead of flipping between several all the time. Accusing everyone? It's my opinion that there are different roles of town, and not every town needs to be flinging shit at everyone. Whether or not Release is a town, he's been doing this just fine. I initially got a town vibe from him but because of the Mordanis/Release link i'm still uncertain of his loyalty. I digress. 2. Accountability: yes i must admit i did plan on posting a more in depth post on the issue. And in hindsight its very stupid i didnt because now my case i easily tainted if i was on the right track. eg. if YOU s0lstice and milton were mafia this is a perfect deflection, "omg, where is your argument on milton.. you must be making filler" if you were to pick me for accountability can i point you to this filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=154712if anyone should be accountable it should be Mufaa's replacement. he has a total of 4 very small posts. perhaps there is a reason mufaa wasn't modkilled. my argument on Milton still stands. i should be online for a little longer.
which is basically saying that you had no intentions of ever looking towards Hegeo's case seriously. This makes me believe that you are one of the mafia who tried to split our attention.
do we have 3 hours left or 27 hours left?
|
the vote is tonight, I'm pretty sure
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
@Mordanis:
My main argumentation was actually a kind of weak case against hegeo, (I would be really happy if you could outline the entire "passive-aggressive" thing a bit better. It is still totally quizzical to me) the knee-jerk and no contribution in regards of day 2 until now (or much less in comparison to the zeal of day 1). The reason I investigated you and Release is not so much about Milton's ideas but more about a case of a confirmed townie (bad as he might have been), who spent a lot of effort writing it.
I did say that your defense in general was pretty reasonable and logical (since the case of hegeo is much more about feeling a certain kind of tag-teaming in day 1 than solid evidence). Before hegeo's case you two were pretty high town reads for me and now I am just not as trusting anymore, which I hope is a reasonable stance towards you, since a "knee-jerk" remains a "knee-jerk".
There is also no questioning that we did gather information from this and I was not suggesting lynching everyone who participates in a mislynch, my FOS was just in order to get more information, which you are openly providing. So that's a plus.
Onto the topic of today's lynch I believe that with the current votecount we should go with the lynch on Golden.
skware's play has been ridiculous until now so I would say if need arises he can easily be dealt with via lynch/whatever blue role we have.
As of now we have about 2,5 hours to go (If I recall correctly) so unless Golden posts some substantial and good defense which can convince me, I'll stay put with ##Vote O.Golden_ne
|
@Shiao
Why don't you pay more attention to Sciberia's accusation of Solstice then? Sciberia was certainly killed by mafia, was certainly town, and was logical. I just don't get why you pay more attention to Hegeo who was killed by the town because he was a bad townie (illogical). Care to explain why?
OK, the time has come. ##Vote: O.Golden_ne. I may have jinxed this before, but gentlemen *raises his glass of RC cola in a toast* Here's to hope!
|
EBWOP: I didn't mean to say that I think solstice is scum, just that the feeling that Hegeo was a tragic figure is not a justification for trusting his judgement. Look at his logic, if you don't think its solid, why do you pay attention to it?
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 27 2012 06:09 Mordanis wrote:
@Shiao
Why don't you pay more attention to Sciberia's accusation of Solstice then? Sciberia was certainly killed by mafia, was certainly town, and was logical. I just don't get why you pay more attention to Hegeo who was killed by the town because he was a bad townie (illogical). Care to explain why?
Maybe I should have posted my opinion on sciberbia's thoughts kind of got lost when I spent time catching up to the thread.
After the post of hegeo I was pretty sure that he would be flipping town. Maybe it is sheeping solstice's reasons, but I see no reason for scum to act as hegeo did. Hegeo basically thought, okay I am dead better leave my best scumread behind even if it costs me the chance to defend myself.
On another note it was in sciberbia's own quote: "I looked through solstice's filter and didn't find anything else I had an issue with, so I'm not prepared to say he is definitely scum, but it really strikes me as something suspcious. Again, just wanted to put it out there in case I die."
It was not a "100%-convinced-of-it"-case as hegeo made his. I mean as I stated above, hegeo gave away his chance to make a reasonable defense for his case. Therefore I scrutinized it a lot more.
Furthermore the mafia goals to shooting sciberbia have already outlined by me in this here:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 26 2012 00:35 ShiaoPi wrote:
Sorry for the lack of activity before but as it is life happens.
We just lost sciberbia so we probably should take a closer look on his filter:
It mainly consists of pressure against Milton and some rebuttals with Mordanis and to a lesser extent release. Just before getting shot he also has a slight suspicion of solstice.
What does mafia stand to gain from eliminating him?
-Silencing a good and contributing townie, who was pretty much a high townread (at least in my opinion)
-Removing Pressure off his targets
-Making people suspicious of his targets
Looking at it only the first point is a given the rest is probably close to WIFOM, but something to keep in mind following the discussion.
Regarding our choice of lynch for day we now have as reasonable candidates Release/Mordanis/Milton and myself (I guess). I'll share my thoughts on the whole Release/Mordanis issue later, just wanted to say that we should not forget sciberbias contributions even though he got shot (maybe it should be even closer scrutinized because he was shot)
As I pointed out you can only gain limited information from a nightkill as only 1) Silencing good/contributing town is a given.
A lynch on the other hand gives you the entire dayplay to consider when rereading the thread to get to know how we ended up with that situation. So in conclusion, I did consider sciberbia's last post but I did not consider it to be as "strong" as hegeo's last post. Furthermore s0lstice's play after the post in which he explained his accusations against me seem to me very townie. As it is my personal read, I simply chose not to make that much out of sciberbia's "last words".
I hope this makes sense to you, otherwise ask away!
|
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: Show nested quote +Furthermore, I think it might be a good idea to not share your town reads early on, since this will make "weaker" town reads an easy target for scum and will give scum safety when they see themselves being seen as strong town reads. By doing so, they will need to justify their posts/opinions and it will be easier to keep the pressure high and find inconsistencies.
You claim that i shut down Mordanis and Sciberia. This was extremely early game stuff that the town pretty much had a consensus for and i didn't want to spend all day discussing lynch vs nolynch.
Next, you try to stop people from looking at my point that mistake=/= slip. This is an important point, not merely semantics. Pure BS.
Pointing the finger DID get discussion going though. You seem to be allergic to the finger. + Show Spoiler +
Next you agree with the consensus. No problem here.
You consider lurkers quite scummy in the next part: It's day 1 and we should be looking for scum not lurkers.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 20:45 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read.
I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia.
However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake).
Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post)
TL;DR
1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early.
2. Keep a personal list of reads.
3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly.
4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip.
My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep.
Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable.
Milton said that he doesn't want us to post reads with the town. My opinion is that this is wrong. You however, seem to agree and want to prevent the town from spreading crucial information.
Next, again, you seem to be stopping the flow of information, asking people to wait. Essentially, you're letting scum get away with one slip, and only want to pressure them if they make more slips. Feels like you want to target newbies rather than scum.
Next comes your excuse for not posting as much. However, you haven't really posted many times with multiple quotes despite that being your point.
TL:DR is shit in mafia. Everyone should read entire posts when they have the time. TL:DR is more likely a way to subtly skew the information that was included in the entire post.
For ex: 1 is a summary of what you wrote, but what you wrote actually implies that you don't want us to share information. by itself, 1 is completely useless.
Some more mumbo-jumbo and your wish to be "quite active" clearly hasn't been followed.
Accountability: Fail.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:@Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker. @Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote. Show nested quote +One final thing: I think the whole passive-aggressive thing needs to end. I understand that you don't want to be lynched (neither do I), but just being angry at one person for the sake of being angry doesn't help anything. This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play. @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. c u soon
Sciberia posts just before you (about mordanis/hegeo) and you respond about Milton. This is distracting and confusing to the town. Although maybe you haven't got ideas on Mordanis/Hegeo. But then, you should be taking your time to get some info on this case.
You agree criticize Milton for the exact thing that you are doing. And you don't acknolwedge this in your post.
Again, you appear to be trying to stop the flow of information and thoughts.
Then you post some filler about townies playing for the town. Pretty obvious and useless...
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 17:05 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment.
i was hoping you'd post something useful when you came back, but this isn't anything important.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 18:14 O.Golden_ne wrote:
I want to post a few of my reads so far in the public arena, hopefully my separation from todays events will give me a different perspective and perhaps help in focusing from the 4 or so cases down to a smaller number.
1. Mufaa.
Obviously useless. I'm more than happy to give him the boot, however before we do i'd like to look into some other avenues of lynching because if he keeps up his current style and fails to post a vote before the day is out he will be modkilled. Why waste a lynch on someone who is most likely to get killed by moderators! haha. That being said if he posts intermittently just to hang into the game. then we instantly should usher him from the game as it's fairly obvious he's just hanging around to get his Mafia night kills in.
2. Miltonkram (open his filter in another window for this, it should be easy to follow and not too long.)
Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on.
next.
he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi).
next.
he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy.
3. Hegeo
I pretty much agree with Mordanis on this player, but i will reserve voting.
4. ShiaoPi
This player has been very defensive the whole game. It's hard to get a read from someone when they are being defensive. He does a good job of trying to avert suspicion from him. The problem with defensive play is that you start to get suspicious of the person accusing you.
Thoughts & Comments
Obviously i need to read a little more into the other players but these are some i have focussed on so far. Miltonkram sticks out to me the most out of the non-lurkers however.
I urge everyone, both people being defensive and offensive. To have a re-read over the person they are accusing/defending and try to see their other posts that arent aimed to you. Perhaps you will get a bit more insight into their position as remember there is 7 of us trying to figure this out!
##FOS Miltonkram
Some obvious points about Mufaa. But considering he had votes against him, i can dismiss this.
Again, criticizing Milton for doing the same things that you are doing. You post a lot of summary here with a few light pinches of analysis.
You agree with mordanis. Mordanis thinks Hegeo is scum. You don't want to vote for the scum (or at least a scummy looking person) is what i get from this.
The point about ShiaoPi has probably the most analysis in the whole post. But it doesn't include anything incriminating nor does it praise him for good townie play. You seem to be willing to go either way with ShiaoPi, ready to jump on the townies reads rather than providing your own opinions.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:27 O.Golden_ne wrote:
@ShaoPi your #FOS of s0lstice seems to be more in retaliation to his argument against you that of any solid evidence.
That being said.
@s0lstice, i can't see any reason why you're going for ShaoPi.
both of you seem to be tunnelling eachother for knee-jerk voting the other. could each of you please write in dot points your arguments. I just need a simplified summary of your cases as i'm having trouble following them.
@Miltonkram. Thank you for your swift reply. I understand that you can now see the holes in your play and it looks like you're ready to get into the swing of posting a bit more content. To get that started.. can you clarify your stance on ShaoPi for me in dot points also.
i'm still waiting to see the community's response to my post on you and i'd like some discussion before i remove or act on my #FOS. your comments have been noted.
More support for your TL:DR. Read the damn posts. Read them twice if you don't get it the first time.
Lazy play, or trying to waste the townies' time. Doesn't look good for you.
Some more excuses for waiting rather than posting but at least you appear to be taking in others' opinions. Still, nothing brilliant here.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:35 O.Golden_ne wrote:I'm liking that concise post sciberbia. Goodluck in exam. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 19:13 sciberbia wrote:
It's obvious to me that those people under suspicion will push for a Mufaa lynch, just because they view him as an easy lynch and not too controversial. I'm not really going to hold it against you for pushing Mufaa, but let's face it (sorry for the hypothetical Release), if mufaa isn't mafia, who do the mafia have a really easy time getting mislynched? I agree with this point. Mufaa is a very easy option for us to lynch day one. Consider that he may be used as an escape option for the Mafia in day one. I personally think he will be modkilled. If Mufaa isn't modkilled i'll be super suspicious of him. BECAUSE, the only thing that can him from a modkill is a vote. Lurking that hard, followed by a vote is good grounds for a vig snipe or a day 2 lynch. I'm out for while.
More on Mufaa. This time, it seems like crap. You have already said it once, and there is no point in saying it again.
And the thought of wasting a vigi shot on him is shit. Vigi should shoot for scum that don't appear to be getting lynched.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 06:32 O.Golden_ne wrote:
thank god i didn't miss the deadline. I went to sleep and forgot to vote.
I'm going to stand by my earlier posts about miltonkram.
but before i vote i want to say that i will change to Hegeo in the case that we dont get enough votes for a lynch, i like Mordanis and Releases argument on him.
In the case the miltonkram flips town, i'm going seriously question ShiaoPi however.
@Hegeo can you please swap your vote of Mufaa, he is most likely modkilled.
##Vote: Miltonkram
Nice hop on the bandwagon there. Your earlier posts were not solid convictions. They were very light and gave you the option to hop on the bandwagon without providing solid evidence. Your entire play has lacked convicting posts, always very wishy-washy, non-commital play.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 19:00 O.Golden_ne wrote:woah, Doctor killed. we're really behind now i'll mull over hegeo's final post before day two, it's really hard to draw links between players so early. but alot of what he has said works out. also Release, i dont think there was much of fiasco at the end of day one. the voting was fairly logical and it didnt seemed too rushed from anyone. people just switched over the the mis-lynch of hegeo.
You seem to be overemphasizing Hegeo's post here. He died, but it doesn't automatically make him correct, but you seem to agree, yet you seem to not have looked through the early posts again. Trying to get a bandwagon started for myself and Mordanis is what i assume.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 12:26 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence.
The most heated debate at the moment is between 3 candidates.
Release, Morsanis and miltonkram.
Here's my read on the events at the moment.
Hegeos got smashed, and his final post carries the most weight of anything in this entire thread.
Since this time both Morsanis and release have been scrambling to defend themselves and appear least scummy. By the fact that they are both quite defensive I feel that miltonkram is right in saying one of them is most likely scum. However miltonkram by posting this opinion in relationship to his former situation makes me feel like he's using this as a great opportunity to avert attention from himself over to shiaopi.
It is my opinion so far that miltonkram is mafia, and one of either Morsanis or release is also.
I also think that his repetition about the 50/50 things makes him look very scummy as there is little content for so much taking. I'll quote it in my big post this arvo if it's still relevant.
Another empty promise.
Another overemphasis on Hegeo's post.
Agreeing with Milton's assumption based post= "i'll join the bandwagon if you start one"
Trying to nail milton to the wall because i did. This is one of the posts that made me realize that Milton is more or less in the same situation as Hegeo. You seem to be one advocating this.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 26 2012 21:29 O.Golden_ne wrote:@s0lstice. 1. Scumhunting: You're saying that i havent been searching for scum? I've read as much of this thread as you have. Are you saying that i'm not scumhunting because i have focussed on a single player instead of flipping between several all the time. Accusing everyone? It's my opinion that there are different roles of town, and not every town needs to be flinging shit at everyone. Whether or not Release is a town, he's been doing this just fine. I initially got a town vibe from him but because of the Mordanis/Release link i'm still uncertain of his loyalty. I digress. 2. Accountability: yes i must admit i did plan on posting a more in depth post on the issue. And in hindsight its very stupid i didnt because now my case i easily tainted if i was on the right track. eg. if YOU s0lstice and milton were mafia this is a perfect deflection, "omg, where is your argument on milton.. you must be making filler" if you were to pick me for accountability can i point you to this filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=337671&user=154712if anyone should be accountable it should be Mufaa's replacement. he has a total of 4 very small posts. perhaps there is a reason mufaa wasn't modkilled. my argument on Milton still stands. i should be online for a little longer.
1) I kind of already adressed this in my prior post.
2) Proven time and time again that you fail at this.
good point about Skware though. I'll give you that.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 27 2012 02:41 O.Golden_ne wrote:
Okay i'm not sure how this is going to sit with everyone, but since i need to get a little more active than i have been AND its the weekend i'm going to say that i re-read over Mordanis's entire refutation of the Hegeo's final post.
I think that Mordanis and Release are victims of circumstance in this situation.
Mordanis's posts strike me as well thought out and very analytical, especially in his rebuttal of his link to Release.
Release; i've got a new-town vibe from him from the get go. Not afraid to get his hands dirty for the sake of the town. I'm however usually a little more reserved, i think town has places for both our kinds of players.
I also find it strange that 2 people have posted their cases on Mordanis so swiftly. Shiaopi and Miltonkram. I don't think that it's too far of a leap to presume that Mordanis is a very easy case today. It's worth a little thought.
Also, if there isn't a solid unified case today then Mufaa/Skware is a must-lynch. This is a useless player =/
thoughts? the deadline approaches.
Now you finally disagree with yourself and say that Hegeo's final post shouldn't carry as much weight as it has.
You actually make a fairly good point about Skware, but ifeel you need to rebuttal to at least one of the posts against you.
Since beginning writing this post, more replies have come so i need to read before i can comment on SHiaoPi.
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
|
EBWOP: last two spoiler empty. I meant to spoiler the whole thing as it is likely to have repeated points.
Also, i meant to:
Vote: O.Golden_ne
|
|
|
|
|
On May 27 2012 06:30 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2012 06:09 Mordanis wrote:
@Shiao
Why don't you pay more attention to Sciberia's accusation of Solstice then? Sciberia was certainly killed by mafia, was certainly town, and was logical. I just don't get why you pay more attention to Hegeo who was killed by the town because he was a bad townie (illogical). Care to explain why?
Maybe I should have posted my opinion on sciberbia's thoughts kind of got lost when I spent time catching up to the thread. After the post of hegeo I was pretty sure that he would be flipping town. Maybe it is sheeping solstice's reasons, but I see no reason for scum to act as hegeo did. Hegeo basically thought, okay I am dead better leave my best scumread behind even if it costs me the chance to defend myself. On another note it was in sciberbia's own quote: Show nested quote +"I looked through solstice's filter and didn't find anything else I had an issue with, so I'm not prepared to say he is definitely scum, but it really strikes me as something suspcious. Again, just wanted to put it out there in case I die."
It was not a "100%-convinced-of-it"-case as hegeo made his. I mean as I stated above, hegeo gave away his chance to make a reasonable defense for his case. Therefore I scrutinized it a lot more. Furthermore the mafia goals to shooting sciberbia have already outlined by me in this here: + Show Spoiler +On May 26 2012 00:35 ShiaoPi wrote:
Sorry for the lack of activity before but as it is life happens.
We just lost sciberbia so we probably should take a closer look on his filter:
It mainly consists of pressure against Milton and some rebuttals with Mordanis and to a lesser extent release. Just before getting shot he also has a slight suspicion of solstice.
What does mafia stand to gain from eliminating him?
-Silencing a good and contributing townie, who was pretty much a high townread (at least in my opinion)
-Removing Pressure off his targets
-Making people suspicious of his targets
Looking at it only the first point is a given the rest is probably close to WIFOM, but something to keep in mind following the discussion.
Regarding our choice of lynch for day we now have as reasonable candidates Release/Mordanis/Milton and myself (I guess). I'll share my thoughts on the whole Release/Mordanis issue later, just wanted to say that we should not forget sciberbias contributions even though he got shot (maybe it should be even closer scrutinized because he was shot) As I pointed out you can only gain limited information from a nightkill as only 1) Silencing good/contributing town is a given. A lynch on the other hand gives you the entire dayplay to consider when rereading the thread to get to know how we ended up with that situation. So in conclusion, I did consider sciberbia's last post but I did not consider it to be as "strong" as hegeo's last post. Furthermore s0lstice's play after the post in which he explained his accusations against me seem to me very townie. As it is my personal read, I simply chose not to make that much out of sciberbia's "last words". I hope this makes sense to you, otherwise ask away!
I just think you're over-romanticizing Hegeo's death. His construction of that accusation while ignoring everything else was a mistake IMO. Had he defended himself well, he could have made his accusation that night. His lynch was by no means written in stone, and some activity could easily have moved the lynch over to Milton. And I'm still so confused about the whole thing. I think he must have had the thread open to quote people and such, but he didn't look at what was happening? If for no other reason than to make a better case, I would imagine he would have to look at the latest posts. I think he may have even been able to avoid being lynched simply by saying something like "Hey, I'm working on a really solid case, brb!", or even posting the first few items. One of the things that contributed to him being lynched over Milton was the fact that he had no activity in the 14ish hours before the deadline. IDK, its just such a weird thing that happened. But I certainly don't see any reason to treat his post as holy writ. Summary: I don't see any reason to treat Hegeo's accusation as anything more than a case made by a confirmed townie.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I did not say that I believe hegeos case to be "holy writ". I simply felt that comparing those two posts the difference is that hegeo posted a case, while sciberbia had a suspicion, which did not convince me. Hegeo's post clearly had quite an effort behind it and it did point out a tag-teamy feeling you two did give off for a while(at least in my humble opinion), so naturally I took a look at it and then shared my thoughts.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
EBWOP: so as in your terms: hegeo was case of a confirmed townie and sciberbia was suspicion of a confirmed townie. I believe that a case has a higher value than a suspicion
|
On May 27 2012 07:30 ShiaoPi wrote:
EBWOP: so as in your terms: hegeo was case of a confirmed townie and sciberbia was suspicion of a confirmed townie. I believe that a case has a higher value than a suspicion
And I believe that following logic is more important than either. Logically, I don't quite get Sciberia's suspicion of Solstice, and I also really don't get the logic from Hegeo's accusation. But this is enough, I don't feel this discussion is very helpful.
|
Unless golden posts some useful analysis before he gets lynched, i'll assume that he is scum and we have done well.
|
So there are 7 people left, and we need 4 to lynch. So far we have
skware votes on release
golden votes on milton
milton votes on golden
solstice votes on golden
Shiaopi votes on golden
I vote on golden
Release votes on golden
So the totals are
Release (1): Skware
Milton (1) O.Golden_ne
O.Golden_ne (5): everyone else
|
is the lynch today or tomorrow? No sign of a night post yet. I was udner the asuumptio nthat 48hr day period, but general consensus is that lynch is in 5 minutes.
|
On May 25 2012 08:32 VisceraEyes wrote:Day 2 Twas the night before Friday and all through the house, not a creature was stirring…except for the two scummy bastards killing people. After a quick glance, you realize one of your member has indeed not joined you. sciberbia the Vanilla Townie has been…taken care of. You have ~48 hours from this post to decide who you wish to destroy next.
This post signaled the end of night 1 and the start of day 2. Posted on may 25th 08:32 KST.
it is now may 27th 08:26 KST. The lynch is definitely right now.
|
Deadline IS up - I'm tallying the votes as I type this.
|
Night 2
Determined to learn from their mistakes, the town spent down to the last minute discussing who should be eliminated. Finally a consensus was reached and a decision made. The noose didn't fit, after everything, so the townspeople chopped up, stomped on, set fire to and finally dissolved with acid the remains of their target. All that remained was a small wisp of green smoke.
O.Golden_ne the Vanilla Townie has been destroyed.
It is now Night 2. You have 23.75 hrs to send me your actions.
+ Show Spoiler +Final Votecount:
Release (1): skware
Miltonkram (1): O.Golden_ne
O.Golden_ne (5): Miltonkram, s0Lstice, ShiaoPi, Mordanis, Release
|
Milton, you're dead. If i survive until the end of the night, you are so dead. I gave the the Benefit of the doubt, but you are dead. I'll make sure to post my case before the night ends.
|
Ugh, I don't even know what to say. I think this puts us at LYLO after the scum night kill.
I take responsibility for driving this, but I really thought we had something here.
|
I guess golden was just too scared to make assertions. GG bro.
|
|
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Looking at the votecount and the fact that golden was townie we got at least one of the scum team on our vote. Which is pretty bad for us as we will most probably head into lylo after the night hit.
|
On May 25 2012 08:17 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 00:45 Release wrote:So right from the start, Milton acts like a Mafia: + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. Makes a post to exclude himself from the lurkers when he doesn't provide anything useful. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
Repeats ideas already mentioned and seems perfectly content to let Sciberia take some heat. This is very early so this post probably helped generate discussion but again, it wasn't anything new to us. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times. The 10% they don't know is the roles which townie/scum reads doesn't give them. You appear to be trying to trick us into stopping the townies from spreading useful information. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:16 Miltonkram wrote:
Sciberbia- I don't really see a whole lot wrong with what I've posted. Everything I've written, including my suspicions of you, was with the goal to generate discussion. With that being said, admittedly I wasn't active at scumhunting because of the lack of information to work from.
With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make. seems kind of like an excuse for a scum slip to me. This is very vague and you don't seem to have a goal with this post. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:53 Miltonkram wrote:Alright, I've got a case that I think has some merit. s0LsticeShow nested quote +Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts: Show nested quote +I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes. ##FOS: s0Lstice This post is interesting because Solstice does look inconsistent with his play. Milton calls him out but he doesn't posting this now cause ran out of time. Will continue. Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 00:56 Release wrote:EBWOP: ... Calls him out but he doesn't apply any REAL pressure. Not asking for a response of any kind. The FOS appears to be for courtesy rather than pressure. At this point, SOlstice's defense appears to be much more solid than your accusations, which is saying something because accusations are typed without pressure whereas defenses are typed under pressure. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo:
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it.
As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa).
Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content.Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy. @ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi. ##unFOS: s0Lstice ##FOS: ShiaoPi Plucking at straws. He realizes that his arguement against solstice is fruitless so he points the torch at ShaoPi. He concerns over defense when SHaoPi aims towards pointing out scum. In Mafia, pointing out scum is more valuable than hugging fellow townies. Why wouldn't you want him to point out scum? If he has a stronger case than your case against him, the town will lynch for his case, rather than yours, thus providing a strong defense. Your post is illogical. The rest of the post is useless filler. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:34 Miltonkram wrote:
Also, I think it's time we light a fire under Mufaa to get him posting.
@ Mufaa- If you want me to change my vote for you, you better get in here and start posting. It's really hard to have good town play if even one person is lurking.
##Vote: Mufaa
This is something I think everyone should keep in mind. We only have one player who is hardcore lurking. That means we have at least one mafia who is staying fairly active in the thread. I need some more time to think this line of thought through (What kind of active town benefits a mafia? What can we do to prevent that kind of town from happening?), but it's good to keep in mind when reading through a player's filter. pure crap. Voting for the lurker on D1 is never a good idea when there are obvious scum targets at hand. Very wishy-washy with his constant change in thought. Trying to confuse the town? i'll stop here because i ran out of time for real this time, but if i had to switch away from Hegeo, you would be my next target. Milton, you scumbag, respond to these. From long time ago and you still haven't responded. Too bad i was still focussed on Hegeo after i posted this... But that's what you wanted isn't it? You split the town's attention so that there would be two cases and i wouldn't focus as closely on one as i would the other.
On May 25 2012 11:34 Miltonkram wrote:I'm going to be reading the filters for a while, so no posts from me for a bit. Right now my top scumreads are: -ShiaoPi: I think he excuses his scummy play by calling it play style. He came into the game with lurker/defensive play in mind, and only after he realized such play wouldn't cut it did he really get active. -Release/Mordanis: I'm not sure which one of these is scum, but I'm convinced that one of them used the other to cover their scumminess. Lastly, I've defended my play here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:02@ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking. First you stated about me: Show nested quote +Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on. The intention of my posts was to generate pressure and discussion. This being my first game, I felt that things such as the list I made and the pressure on sciberbia would be viewed as more threatening than they were actually taken. I believe s0Lstice used the term "weaksauce" to describe them, and looking back, I'm going to have to agree with him. In short, I think you're making a big deal out of some town play of mine that was admittedly less than stellar. The next part of your post states: Show nested quote +he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi). This next part is actually kind of funny, it was a reading comprehension error on my part, a reading comprehension error of his reading comprehension error. I thought it was crazy how flimsy his FOS was, I feel a bit stupid now that I realize what he was saying. Essentially, I did the exact same thing to him that he did to me. As for the last part of your post towards me: Show nested quote +he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy. I want you to know that I am still gunning for ShiaoPi. I hope we don't have to lynch Mufaa, but he needs to know that my vote for him will stand until he starts posting or I think he'll get modkilled/replaced. Right now, I'm going to continue pressuring ShiaoPi. Even if we don't lynch him today, our late game will be much better if we can get him to post something other than his wishy-washy defensive play. If you still have a problem with my defense that's fine. Quite honestly, I'm kind of expecting to get lynched tonight anyway. Maybe when/if I get lynched it will be for the best and people will actually take my accusations seriously, but I'm going to continue to play the best I can no matter what. I'll be back in a little while.
i think your defense is shit. Do it again, properly, or My vote is going to be on you and is not going to change unless some claims to be sum with a case on themselves.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:Regarding people's suspicions of me. I've already explained my line of reasoning. My pressure on s0Lstice was a mistake on my part, simple as that. I'm willing to switch my vote on Mufaa, since I think he will be replaced/modkilled. All people had been saying up to that point in time amounted to, "Mufaa, we'd really like to hear from you." I wanted to see if he would make a response to some real pressure. I think we can agree that voting for someone is the most pressure you can put on them. At the time I was trying to do two things at once, pressure ShiaoPi and pressure Mufaa. I guess I didn't make it clear what I was doing. Also, I hadn't considered this: Show nested quote +---snip
Also, get your votes off Mufaa. He will be replaced/modkilled if he doesn't do crap. Otherwise, we can lynch him D2. He's guaranteed to be lynched D2 if he does pop in to vote, so I won't concern myself with him anymore. My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post. + Show Spoiler +Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler +Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler +Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression. Let's look at his suspicions of hegeo. + Show Spoiler +I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +) Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Once again this is "suspicion" that he doesn't actually have to commit to, and he hopes he won't be held accountable for. I would ask you all this, who would be more damaging as scum? The actions I've taken in the game have all been actions that I've committed to. (barring the mistake I made with s0Lstice, but that was just me being dumb.) You can actually tie me to what I've written and hold me accountable later in the game, whereas ShiaoPi seems to have some sort of "escape clause" in almost every single one of his posts. The only thing he's been adamant about has been his FOS of s0Lstice, and that pressure has a built in escape to it, seeing as he can excuse himself by saying that s0Lstice had pressured him first. Anyway, what are people's thoughts on this? Seeing as I'll be away for an hour or two I'm going to go ahead and vote. ##unVote: Mufaa ##Vote: ShiaoPi
you switch away and point out the obvious about Mufaa. Not useful at all, except that it stops people from accusing you of being obvious scum.
ShiaoPi was being fair to sciberia, if anything. It was pretty much the first content post and clearly, sciberia was inexperienced and had questions to ask us.
Ok, so you point out that SHiaoPi repeated your arguement. That's fair, but if you criticize him, go criticize yourself too.
Sciberia was new to the game. he flipped town which confirms that his questions were a valid attempt to understand the game and ShiaoPi clearly just trying to see how Sciberia responds.
I'll admit here that ShiaoPi is very noncommital, but i think your are being quite overcommital with your vote based on this case that you could almost apply to yourself.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 07:39 Miltonkram wrote:
ShiaoPi, I did not deliberately disregard your later posts. However, real life has gotten in the way of me posting more content and my follow up analysis of your later posts was left undone. Suffice to say, I think what you call play style is actually your built in excuse for your scummy behavior. I think the healthy town atmosphere has forced you to be more active than you originally planned, and only after you were pressured by s0Lstice and myself did you begin to post decent, but not good, content. If I may sum up your play style for the sake of time:
-Lurk until there is pressure on you
-Respond to pressure with mostly defensive statements
-When that doesn't work, begin to put counter-pressure on your attacker
-Bandwagon on me once you see that I'm a prime lynch
I'd post more direct analysis, but once again, time is running short.
Everyone, I hope you can figure out why this is scummy activity in my eyes. If I get lynched today, I hope you keep this in mind. The pressure seems to be off ShiaoPi right now, so unless I can miraculously convince you all to vote for him I guess I'll have to switch my targets.
Here you try to apply some stereotypical Scum characteristics on him without too much elaboration. No time? I might have given you that if you posted an analysis after that post but i can't find any. You suddenly seem to have dropped his case. That is scummy
+ Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 07:54 Miltonkram wrote:
Very well, I don't like making this move, but if we lynch hegeo, there is at least a small chance of him being mafia.
##unVote: ShiaoPi
##Vote: hegeo
For the record, if you lynch me and see me flip town, that doesn't mean hegeo is mafia. Too much of his case has been circumstantial, and too much of it has been just a few vocal players tunneling him.
If you don't believe hegeo was scum, don't vote him. But you seem keen on joining the bandwagon for him. Also, no analysis here: so you don't have to defend yourself against false analysis and to claim that you just want a majority vote.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote:
I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone?
we've been over this: too many assumptions, an attempt to fool the town.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 10:20 Miltonkram wrote:@ Release- Misinformation? Where? All I'm trying to do is explain the assumption that I'll be working from as I analyze you and Mordanis's posts. In my post I was stating all the possibilities so that I could begin eliminating those possibilities that are less likely. From this point on, I am assuming that between the two of you (Release, Mordanis), I'm pretty sure one of you is scum and one of you is town. Let me restate this plainly: I don't think both of you are mafia. I don't think both of you are town. I think one of you is mafia and one of you is town. I believe this for the reasons I stated in my last long post. Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 08:13 Release wrote:---snip Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch? Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched. This is so full of shit and scum. No, of course I don't think lynching is completely random. I was shortening my reasoning because it wasn't the main thrust of my post. If we did just flip a coin deciding to lynch you or Mordanis, I say we'd have a 50/50 chance to hit mafia. We can do better than that though, with good analysis we'll find out which one of you is scum.
On May 25 2012 08:13 Release wrote:
---snip
And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you?
Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself.
##FOS: Milton
Holy crap, stop playing so defensively. I'm not even sure if you're the half of the duo that's scum. I'm just laying the groundwork for my analysis of your (you and Mordanis's) posting. Also stop labeling any analysis you disagree with as WIFOM. I think you may be the one who doesn't understand its definition.
Since Release seems impervious to reason, I'll put this out to the rest of the town. I don't care if you think I'm scum or not, the points I made in my post were good ones. Do you disagree with the assumptions I'm making? If you do it's best to speak up now, because I plan on basing my later analysis on these assumptions.
an assumption based defense; scummy
Accusing me of labeling analysis as WIFOM. Your assumptions absolutely were WIFOM because there is nothing concrete to go by.
+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE] On May 25 2012 11:34 Miltonkram wrote:I'm going to be reading the filters for a while, so no posts from me for a bit. Right now my top scumreads are: -ShiaoPi: I think he excuses his scummy play by calling it play style. He came into the game with lurker/defensive play in mind, and only after he realized such play wouldn't cut it did he really get active. -Release/Mordanis: I'm not sure which one of these is scum, but I'm convinced that one of them used the other to cover their scumminess. Lastly, I've defended my play here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:02@ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking. First you stated about me: Show nested quote +Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on. The intention of my posts was to generate pressure and discussion. This being my first game, I felt that things such as the list I made and the pressure on sciberbia would be viewed as more threatening than they were actually taken. I believe s0Lstice used the term "weaksauce" to describe them, and looking back, I'm going to have to agree with him. In short, I think you're making a big deal out of some town play of mine that was admittedly less than stellar. The next part of your post states: he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure. it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future. next. after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi). This next part is actually kind of funny, it was a reading comprehension error on my part, a reading comprehension error of his reading comprehension error. I thought it was crazy how flimsy his FOS was, I feel a bit stupid now that I realize what he was saying. Essentially, I did the exact same thing to him that he did to me. As for the last part of your post towards me: he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy. I want you to know that I am still gunning for ShiaoPi. I hope we don't have to lynch Mufaa, but he needs to know that my vote for him will stand until he starts posting or I think he'll get modkilled/replaced. Right now, I'm going to continue pressuring ShiaoPi. Even if we don't lynch him today, our late game will be much better if we can get him to post something other than his wishy-washy defensive play. If you still have a problem with my defense that's fine. Quite honestly, I'm kind of expecting to get lynched tonight anyway. Maybe when/if I get lynched it will be for the best and people will actually take my accusations seriously, but I'm going to continue to play the best I can no matter what. I'll be back in a little while.
suddenly you seem to have remembered your case on ShiaoPi after the lynch. Why not keep pushing his case until the very end if you actually believed that he was scum?
and from here, you make some statements on Mordanis and I that have since been addressed so i won't go over again.
+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE]On May 27 2012 03:59 Miltonkram wrote:
We need to come to a consensus on skware quickly. We have less than 5 hours until deadline. skware is a pure policy lynch at this point, we simply don't have enough information to make a case for him or against him. Since he stated that he likely won't be back until after the deadline we need to plan for the worst case scenario, that he won't make it back in time.
We don't gain much info from him if he flips either way, under that line of reasoning he could very well be scum. Thoughts?
Golden's defense does not satisfy me, and that leads me to believe he's having difficulty figuring out a way to defend his actions. With that in mind
##Vote: O.Golden_ne
If we decide that skware is the policy lynch I will switch my vote to him. Mordanis, I want to hear a defense from you, otherwise I will consider switching my vote to you.
A vote on Golden as well as some random talk about lynching Skware. Like with mufaa, we don't need to worry about Skware until he disappears and probably gets modkilled.
Then, you make a sentence which essentially gives you an opportunity to jump on a Mordanis bandwagon, should it start.
So, if i die tonight, i beg that you lynch Milton. Lynch him to hell.
|
@ Release- I'll post a full defense when I get the time/if I'm still alive, but there are a few points where your logic is sadly lacking.
---snip
If you don't believe hegeo was scum, don't vote him. But you seem keen on joining the bandwagon for him. Also, no analysis here: so you don't have to defend yourself against false analysis and to claim that you just want a majority vote.
This is pure bullshit. Why would I want the town to mislynch me? The only two cases with real weight behind them at the time were mine and hegeo's. I didn't think hegeo's case was great, but with the town so divided, voting for him was still better than a no-lynch. There was still the possibility in my mind that he was mafia so why take actions, such as not voting for him, that would automatically get me lynched? If my play was good town play, I would vote for hegeo. If my play was good scum play, I would vote for hegeo. This holds no water.
---snip
A vote on Golden as well as some random talk about lynching Skware. Like with mufaa, we don't need to worry about Skware until he disappears and probably gets modkilled.
Then, you make a sentence which essentially gives you an opportunity to jump on a Mordanis bandwagon, should it start.
I thought Golden's case was the more likely one. Do I wish I'd voted on Mordanis now? Hell yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Golden's play and his defense were seriously lacking.
Also, why would you assume that skware is getting modkilled when he's posted and he's voted? He's not getting modkilled therefore we actually have to pay attention to him. That's why I posted what I did. We've put off a lurker lynch for two days and it's coming back to bite us in the ass. If he's mafia, we've let him off the hook for two days in a row. I don't think it's bad play to assume he counted on that.
Your case against me is a good deal worse than many of the cases you've made in the past. I don't really understand it but I will do my best to refute it when I have the time.
|
GG Golden, let your voice be heard next time
|
Nothing happening during the night
We should not waste entire nights like these doing nothing.
Don't go shooting yourself in the foot by posting a few responses. There is still a large amount of scummy play in there.
Half assed posting is exactly what got Hegeo lynched. Don't repeat his mistakes.
|
I think its much more likely that I'll be killed tonight than I had to be killed N1. That being said, I hope eveyone will take this post into consideration. It's starting to look like its time for a policy lynch. We don't know anything about skware/Mufaa, and therefore there is no solid case that can be made against him(them). He/They has/have forced us to at least consider a lynch. It's sad that this game might go down to a pure luck situation, but I don't know what else to do.
@Release: baiting a mafia kp is probably the dumbest thing you can do. It makes your accusation seem like something that you wrote up just to pressure one player, and if it gains no information. Whether Milton is actually scum or not is not shown by baiting a kp. If he is, letting you live might make him seem more like town. If he isn't though, killing him might make the obvious case be against milton. On the other hand, If he's scum killing you would silence pressure against him. And if he's not scum, letting you live could also add to the conspiracy. It all leads to massive WIFOM, bringing confusion to the town.
|
Day 3![[image loading]](https://www.ipscell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Twoleg-Place-Dark-Alley.jpg)
Town's slumber was troubled as the image of the Golden One's last moments persisted even into their dreams. It was as if they could still hear the echos of his mind's scream all through the night. In the morning, yet again, one of their company was not present. A quick scan of the Town found no trace of their companion - only a smear of green blood down one of the alleys.
s0Lstice the Vanilla Townie sleeps with the fishes.
It is now Day 3. You have ~48 hours to decide who you want to destroy and vote accordingly.
|
Damnit. As I already said though, no information from mafia not taking the bait from Release.......
|
gg and good luck guys. wish i had been of more help.
|
|
|
we need activity:
##Vote: ShiaoPi
|
What is happening with skware/Mufaa?
That is literally the most frustrating thing. It makes the game come down to whether we blindly trust him or blindly lynch him, and what his actual role is. It's hard to make one's self care about the game when, after all of this, it comes down to dumb luck. If skware is replaced, then his replacement is accountable for nothing. Nothing at all. He has two players before him whom he can easily say ignored the game, and WIFOM up any accusation made against him. What are your thoughts about this release?
|
pure WIFOM and speculation but considering that he isn't doing anything helpful whatsoever, i have to say he is town. No Scum that i've ever read would take risk.
|
I guess I have one last question then: Why ShiaoPi? He seems to me to be the only player left in the game that you haven't at least entertained a case against.
|
Considering the past lynches that we've had, the suspected scum turns out to be playing badly. ShiaoPi has kept his neck out of trouble and townies have not. I'll try to draw up a case against him before this game ends.
The way I see it, he and Milton are scum. Milton plays badly enough that we can always et him lynched. (he is an exception to the above rule because he had sEveral obvious pro-scum posts.
|
@ Release- Just got home from work, I will spend the next part of my time mounting a defense before I get some sleep. Hopefully this will lay the issue to rest. The problem with my situation is that any contributing action I take gets interpreted as "Hey, that's exactly what scum would do trying to look like they're town." I hope you understand how frustrating that is.
@ Mordanis- I guess that's why Lynch All Lurkers is a policy. I don't know what we're supposed to do about skware now with the game on the line.
Spoilered because it's mostly sentiment
+ Show Spoiler +One or two helpful posts from him yesterday could have really helped, or maybe explained a lot about his vote for Release. Shot-in-the-dark lynch just doesn't seem like a good way to possibly end the game. Coping with this situation has got me feeling really bummed out. Skware, if you actually read this I hope you contribute today. Is your best idea of contribution really four short posts and a (bad) vote? Mafia is already a difficult game without you lurking like crazy.
|
I'm really sorry guys, but my brain just isn't working. I just read through what I typed and it has so many spelling errors and bad sentences that I'd feel really stupid if I submitted it. Between work and class I haven't had much time for the game in the last however many hours. I'll have it in soon!
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Just got home and what do I see?
We head into LYLO (gg to s0lstice) and Release's first action is to vote me after repeatedly saying that we should go after Milton in the previous night. This reason here:
On May 28 2012 16:38 Release wrote:
Considering the past lynches that we've had, the suspected scum turns out to be playing badly. ShiaoPi has kept his neck out of trouble and townies have not. I'll try to draw up a case against him before this game ends.
The way I see it, he and Milton are scum. Milton plays badly enough that we can always et him lynched. (he is an exception to the above rule because he had sEveral obvious pro-scum posts.
is beyond retarded. If you seriously believe that it gets ridiculous, you say that I am scum for not being a bad townie and for not getting lynched? Congratulations you should lynch all of us right now with this reasoning. A sudden switch after the Milton case onto me is totally uncomprehensible to me and just goes on to a meltdown for logic. If you do not care to elaborate I might have to reconsider my opinion of you.
As we are in LYLO we should simply go after the one you find scummiest and not somebody who you might think is scum. Mislynch and it's over. Which is another reason why I would not support a lynch on skware, that's way too much coinflipping involved in going after him with his low amount of posts.
|
We've been duped I think. This is probably the bigger reason why we shouldn't have talked about policy. It's not so much that it is sort of filler and a way for scum to come off as protown, but more because it shows the scum what our attitudes are. Mufaa has already admitted to winning a previous game as scum by lurking + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.)
I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch.
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them. Still, we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. + Show Spoiler +c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo
And some other times we've said that lynching a lurker is really only an option if we don't have another case. As long as we don't all fall off the face of the earth, everyone but skware/Mufaa will be much more likely to be lynched than the person who hasn't posted basically at all. And even more importantly, we've already agreed to do just that. I'm thinking that we need to at least seriously consider skware as a candidate for being lynched. It is annoyingly luck-based, but so is not lynching him at this point.
|
Skware's filter
Here's even more evidence. Skware started out fairly actively, and posted pretty good analysis for someone who had just looked at the thread for the first time. He posts 3 semi-analytical posts in about 8 hours, and then claims that he will be inactive for a while due to sleep and work. Then he posts nothing more save a seemingly random vote for Release. The way I see it, he was fairly active in pointing out the things he saw until he read through the first few pages and found out that we would only "pressure" lurkers by maybe occasionally voting for one for a few hours, or putting a FOS on them, or even "being more suspicious" of them. That last part is sort of WIFOM, but I think we can agree that the facts seem suspicious. He is active, and when he gets time to analyze the thread, he disappears. And we said that we wouldn't lynch a lurker unless there isn't a better case. What are everyone else's thoughts?
|
All that stuff i posted before this moment: Pure Bullshit.
Milton, plz, if you are able to read this in time, don't go wasting your time defending yourself. I made that case by concluding that every single action = scum. Don't respond to that. Go build a case on someone else.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Is our situation really as bad that you want to lynch somebody who has yet to post anything really substantial? Mafia played us well and left us stuck in LYLO with a lurker and 4 guys who have all been under suspicion at one point of the game. Basically they took out the people with high town reads and we are left in a mucky state of actually anyone could be scum. If skware is still lurking there is no way for us to win anymore since we need 3 votes and mafia can easily sway the outcome with their 2 votes.
I said it already but I'll repeat I really do not like lynching skware, we can just flip a coin if we do it to determine the outcome of the game. I for one would be interested in the posts that were promised by Release and Milton before deciding on anything.
If we are approaching deadline and he still does nothing then I might be willing to give it a shot, but until then no.
|
##unvote: ShiaoPi
##vote: Mordanis
On May 29 2012 03:08 Mordanis wrote:We've been duped I think. This is probably the bigger reason why we shouldn't have talked about policy. It's not so much that it is sort of filler and a way for scum to come off as protown, but more because it shows the scum what our attitudes are. Mufaa has already admitted to winning a previous game as scum by lurking + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 09:25 Mufaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:10 Release wrote:
Also, i'd like to hear everyone's opinion on lurkers. I was Mafia in XIII and the amount of lurkers in a 12 person game ruined it. We won after a misread by the vig n3 because 2 of the mafia lurked all 3 days and so did 2 townies and he guessed wrong. If we want to find the scum we need as much content out of everyone as possible. More content means more room for mafia mistakes while townies can't make a mistake if they're being honest. . So he knew that it was possible to stay alive (at least in mini's) by lurking hardcore. And then we go and say things like this: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:33 Mordanis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
What is your opinion on Sciberia's post as a "post"? (i'm not asking you to answer the question, but rather to view it from a townie/scum perspective.)
I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch.
One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them. Still, we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 01:29 hegeo wrote:Sciberbia bringing the heat via analysis, I like it. Hey Release, some thoughts about your posts, and why I think you're not always helping town with them: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
1) Of course we should lynch. a)Anyone who doesn't vote for a lynch is immediately put under suspicion.
I am getting awfully suspicious of you because of this post:
First, you ask a question to which both myself and Mordanis have answered yes to. If you wanted to further ask the others, there is no need to include the small tidbits of information that don't really help people make an informative decision. In fact, the part where you include Role... Role ... Role.. looks like an attempt to confuse people.
Second, your second question is a mere restatement of your first question with even more filler. Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
a) Even though I understand where you're coming from, this is kind of pseudo-pressuring people, which is futile in the beginning of the game. This makes for an anti-town-atmosphere, since posting should be encouraged. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:30 Release wrote:
We need to start panicking if no one votes and it is a short time before the deadline. This is textbook no lynch territory. In this case, we need to start piling our votes on one candidate who has appeared the most scummy. b) Worst case scenario, we look at lurkers and choose to lynch one of them.
Still, c)we need more information, especially because this is Day1 and we only have some 8 hours left and no concrete scum yet. b) It's not the best case to lynch lurkers, but if they don't contribute to town then it is at least good riddance. c) You are posting at least a considerable amount of non-productive posts right now, e.g. to this post... Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote:Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler +A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do.
... your answer was this: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 00:24 Release wrote:From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. You consistently do this "#FOS"-stuff Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:08 Release wrote:
The useful part of your post can be summarized by:
We should have a lynch today. A no-lynch would be detrimental.
##FOS: Mordanis and then, you FOS Sciberibia... ..before even un##FOSing Mordanis: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 15:45 Release wrote:
EBWOP: I understand your post so for now:
##unFOS: Mordanis
To answer in your own words: Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 14:35 Release wrote:
Why do you feel obligated to post this if it doesn't contribute to do anything useful?
Even though there are many players that have a way shorter filter than you, what you do is generating "noise" (not always, you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute). It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can (because both of these #FOSes came to nothing, which would make you a little scummy) or I read it as an overly motivated try to get information. Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. + Show Spoiler +c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler +Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo And some other times we've said that lynching a lurker is really only an option if we don't have another case. As long as we don't all fall off the face of the earth, everyone but skware/Mufaa will be much more likely to be lynched than the person who hasn't posted basically at all. And even more importantly, we've already agreed to do just that. I'm thinking that we need to at least seriously consider skware as a candidate for being lynched. It is annoyingly luck-based, but so is not lynching him at this point.
and
On May 29 2012 03:19 Mordanis wrote:Skware's filterHere's even more evidence. Skware started out fairly actively, and posted pretty good analysis for someone who had just looked at the thread for the first time. He posts 3 semi-analytical posts in about 8 hours, and then claims that he will be inactive for a while due to sleep and work. Then he posts nothing more save a seemingly random vote for Release. The way I see it, he was fairly active in pointing out the things he saw until he read through the first few pages and found out that we would only "pressure" lurkers by maybe occasionally voting for one for a few hours, or putting a FOS on them, or even "being more suspicious" of them. That last part is sort of WIFOM, but I think we can agree that the facts seem suspicious. He is active, and when he gets time to analyze the thread, he disappears. And we said that we wouldn't lynch a lurker unless there isn't a better case. What are everyone else's thoughts?
We really don't need to be talking about Mufaa/Skware right now. There are still two scum left and one of them is guaranteed to be outside of Skware, if not both. So we need to go finding cases on the active four. The lurker can wait another day.
|
On May 28 2012 08:28 Mordanis wrote:
I think its much more likely that I'll be killed tonight than I had to be killed N1. That being said, I hope eveyone will take this post into consideration. It's starting to look like its time for a policy lynch. We don't know anything about skware/Mufaa, and therefore there is no solid case that can be made against him(them). He/They has/have forced us to at least consider a lynch. It's sad that this game might go down to a pure luck situation, but I don't know what else to do.
@Release: baiting a mafia kp is probably the dumbest thing you can do. It makes your accusation seem like something that you wrote up just to pressure one player, and if it gains no information. Whether Milton is actually scum or not is not shown by baiting a kp. If he is, letting you live might make him seem more like town. If he isn't though, killing him might make the obvious case be against milton. On the other hand, If he's scum killing you would silence pressure against him. And if he's not scum, letting you live could also add to the conspiracy. It all leads to massive WIFOM, bringing confusion to the town.
This one really gets me: Why do you need to make a post about me baiting a KP? Everyone knows I'm baiting a kp. There is no point to do this.
|
So you voted for me because I put forward a logical case that the fact that 2 people lurking as the same player and the fact that we said (and are saying!) that we shouldn't lynch a lurker is suspicious? Oh wait, you don't like that argument... An OMGUS at this point of the game is really not helpful. Anyways, I get that you're tying to get me emotional again. You're gunning for Milton and trying to make me slip. Sorry. One last thing, why do you tell Milton in your last accusation (on page 18) to defend himself properly, and you just told him that you won't ever believe anything he ever says? You seem to have become more convinced of yourself, but you haven't told anyone why. Finally, you say this in your accusation against Milton: suddenly you seem to have remembered your case on ShiaoPi after the lynch. Why not keep pushing his case until the very end if you actually believed that he was scum? . This seems an awful lot like your play (with your case against Milton being "forgotten" by your cases on Hegeo and Golden), and yet you seem to think it is very scummy.
|
Come on. Read. I just said that the post was bullshit. Now you're trying to quote my bullshit and turn it into evidence against me. I said it was bullshit, it is bullshit. It was purely for the "bait."
This last post really doesn't make you shine townie in my eyes.
|
On May 29 2012 04:06 Release wrote:
All that stuff i posted before this moment: Pure Bullshit.
Milton, plz, if you are able to read this in time, don't go wasting your time defending yourself. I made that case by concluding that every single action = scum. Don't respond to that. Go build a case on someone else.
Do you see how this is ambiguous? It could mean through the entire game, through N2, or just what you've written D3, or anything in between. Don't blame me for misinterpreting when you aren't clear. Actually, why are you being so defensive? So far this cycle you've voted for two people and and said that you're trying to manipulate the game. And everything you've said against me is basically "OMGUS, you disagreed with me. OMGUS, you misinterpreted me.". Post real analysis.
One more thing:
On May 29 2012 05:56 Release wrote:
Come on. Read. I just said that the post was bullshit. Now you're trying to quote my bullshit and turn it into evidence against me. I said it was bullshit, it is bullshit. It was purely for the "bait."
This last post really doesn't make you shine townie in my eyes.
Which was it? In the first post I quoted, you say that every one of Milton's actions was scummy. In the second post you say your accusation was bullshit. Which is it?
|
On May 29 2012 06:18 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 04:06 Release wrote:
All that stuff i posted before this moment: Pure Bullshit.
Milton, plz, if you are able to read this in time, don't go wasting your time defending yourself. I made that case by concluding that every single action = scum. Don't respond to that. Go build a case on someone else.
Do you see how this is ambiguous? It could mean through the entire game, through N2, or just what you've written D3, or anything in between. Don't blame me for misinterpreting when you aren't clear. Actually, why are you being so defensive? So far this cycle you've voted for two people and and said that you're trying to manipulate the game. And everything you've said against me is basically "OMGUS, you disagreed with me. OMGUS, you misinterpreted me.". Post real analysis. One more thing: Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 05:56 Release wrote:
Come on. Read. I just said that the post was bullshit. Now you're trying to quote my bullshit and turn it into evidence against me. I said it was bullshit, it is bullshit. It was purely for the "bait."
This last post really doesn't make you shine townie in my eyes. Which was it? In the first post I quoted, you say that every one of Milton's actions was scummy. In the second post you say your accusation was bullshit. Which is it?
bullshit from the long milton post until now.
Every one of Milton's actions was scummy is the false assumption i used to create that bullshit post.
|
EBWOP: bullshit... now which stopped at the "all of that was bullshit" post.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I would say it was rather clear which parts of Release's posts were "bullshit" as part of the bait.
@mordanis
What I really do not understand is why you seem so intent to go after the lurker. I saw your reasoning but it looks kind of stupid to be honest. I already said that at least one scum was on our vote against Golden, so there is no reason to actually go for the coinflip if it is much more reasonable to go after one of the 4 active players...
Care to elaborate on your thoughts? What I have read until now is not really convincing. Correct me if I am wrong: "We should lynch him, because there is the chance that he is lurking scum and because of the apparent lack of lynching lurkers until now in our game. Which would make him feel safe."
I am probably repeating myself but we are in LYLO and I'd rather not take my chances with a lurker if we can get the scum on our vote.
|
Where the hell is Skware?
We lose by default if he is town and doesn't vote.
|
I'm really not intent on going after skware. I just pointed out that it logically makes sense that he could be scum and actively lurking. And by saying that we're not willing to lynch scum except as a last resort we are encouraging him to actively lurk, whether he is town or scum. And besides that, all we have is Release going batshit again. His case on Milton really isn't all that strong, but he seems to be acutely certain that Milton is scum. We do need activity, and I was simply pressing the case that I feel is the strongest right now. And this quote is from his latest case on Milton. + Show Spoiler +On May 28 2012 05:16 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 08:17 Release wrote:On May 24 2012 00:45 Release wrote:So right from the start, Milton acts like a Mafia: + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:02 Miltonkram wrote:
Hey all, just got in from work. I'll wait on pressuring people to see who is a lurker or inactive, but I'm hoping that won't be a big issue.
People who still haven't posted since the Day 1 post:
-Golden
-hegeo
-ShiaoPi
I'd really like these three players to check in at the very least, if not start to put some information out there. Makes a post to exclude himself from the lurkers when he doesn't provide anything useful. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote:
Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary.
Repeats ideas already mentioned and seems perfectly content to let Sciberia take some heat. This is very early so this post probably helped generate discussion but again, it wasn't anything new to us. + Show Spoiler +On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote:
This'll be my last post for a little while seeing as getting sleep is kind of important.
ShiaoPi- While sciberbia's posting content was a bit suspect, I wouldn't read too much into his absence. He did state in his post that he was about to get some sleep. Let's hear what he has to say.
Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times. The 10% they don't know is the roles which townie/scum reads doesn't give them. You appear to be trying to trick us into stopping the townies from spreading useful information. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:16 Miltonkram wrote:
Sciberbia- I don't really see a whole lot wrong with what I've posted. Everything I've written, including my suspicions of you, was with the goal to generate discussion. With that being said, admittedly I wasn't active at scumhunting because of the lack of information to work from.
With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make. seems kind of like an excuse for a scum slip to me. This is very vague and you don't seem to have a goal with this post. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 06:53 Miltonkram wrote:Alright, I've got a case that I think has some merit. s0LsticeShow nested quote +Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton.
##FOS: Miltonkram Note that I'm not complaining about his suspicions of me. I think his suspicions are actually a good townie move. His statement about accusations and defense is really good too. This first post is consistent with good townie play. However, an hour later, without even waiting for my defense he posts: Show nested quote +I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent.
I will..
## unFOS: Miltonkram
...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. My point is he should have kept pressuring me. I realize that he misread my post somewhat, but he uses that last line of text to look like he's still pressuring me in some way. I think a townie would leave the FOS on me until I've actually done something to defend myself. Right now it seems like he's trying to apply just enough pressure to appear town, without actually committing to it. That's consistent with scum play in my eyes. ##FOS: s0Lstice This post is interesting because Solstice does look inconsistent with his play. Milton calls him out but he doesn't posting this now cause ran out of time. Will continue. On May 24 2012 00:56 Release wrote:EBWOP: ... Calls him out but he doesn't apply any REAL pressure. Not asking for a response of any kind. The FOS appears to be for courtesy rather than pressure. At this point, SOlstice's defense appears to be much more solid than your accusations, which is saying something because accusations are typed without pressure whereas defenses are typed under pressure. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote:I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes. Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote:
Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo:
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it.
As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa).
Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content.Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy. @ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi. ##unFOS: s0Lstice ##FOS: ShiaoPi Plucking at straws. He realizes that his arguement against solstice is fruitless so he points the torch at ShaoPi. He concerns over defense when SHaoPi aims towards pointing out scum. In Mafia, pointing out scum is more valuable than hugging fellow townies. Why wouldn't you want him to point out scum? If he has a stronger case than your case against him, the town will lynch for his case, rather than yours, thus providing a strong defense. Your post is illogical. The rest of the post is useless filler. + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 08:34 Miltonkram wrote:
Also, I think it's time we light a fire under Mufaa to get him posting.
@ Mufaa- If you want me to change my vote for you, you better get in here and start posting. It's really hard to have good town play if even one person is lurking.
##Vote: Mufaa
This is something I think everyone should keep in mind. We only have one player who is hardcore lurking. That means we have at least one mafia who is staying fairly active in the thread. I need some more time to think this line of thought through (What kind of active town benefits a mafia? What can we do to prevent that kind of town from happening?), but it's good to keep in mind when reading through a player's filter. pure crap. Voting for the lurker on D1 is never a good idea when there are obvious scum targets at hand. Very wishy-washy with his constant change in thought. Trying to confuse the town? i'll stop here because i ran out of time for real this time, but if i had to switch away from Hegeo, you would be my next target. Milton, you scumbag, respond to these. From long time ago and you still haven't responded. Too bad i was still focussed on Hegeo after i posted this... But that's what you wanted isn't it? You split the town's attention so that there would be two cases and i wouldn't focus as closely on one as i would the other. Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 11:34 Miltonkram wrote:I'm going to be reading the filters for a while, so no posts from me for a bit. Right now my top scumreads are: -ShiaoPi: I think he excuses his scummy play by calling it play style. He came into the game with lurker/defensive play in mind, and only after he realized such play wouldn't cut it did he really get active. -Release/Mordanis: I'm not sure which one of these is scum, but I'm convinced that one of them used the other to cover their scumminess. Lastly, I've defended my play here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:02@ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking. First you stated about me: Show nested quote +Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on. The intention of my posts was to generate pressure and discussion. This being my first game, I felt that things such as the list I made and the pressure on sciberbia would be viewed as more threatening than they were actually taken. I believe s0Lstice used the term "weaksauce" to describe them, and looking back, I'm going to have to agree with him. In short, I think you're making a big deal out of some town play of mine that was admittedly less than stellar. The next part of your post states: Show nested quote +he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure.
it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future.
next.
after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi). This next part is actually kind of funny, it was a reading comprehension error on my part, a reading comprehension error of his reading comprehension error. I thought it was crazy how flimsy his FOS was, I feel a bit stupid now that I realize what he was saying. Essentially, I did the exact same thing to him that he did to me. As for the last part of your post towards me: Show nested quote +he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy. I want you to know that I am still gunning for ShiaoPi. I hope we don't have to lynch Mufaa, but he needs to know that my vote for him will stand until he starts posting or I think he'll get modkilled/replaced. Right now, I'm going to continue pressuring ShiaoPi. Even if we don't lynch him today, our late game will be much better if we can get him to post something other than his wishy-washy defensive play. If you still have a problem with my defense that's fine. Quite honestly, I'm kind of expecting to get lynched tonight anyway. Maybe when/if I get lynched it will be for the best and people will actually take my accusations seriously, but I'm going to continue to play the best I can no matter what. I'll be back in a little while. i think your defense is shit. Do it again, properly, or My vote is going to be on you and is not going to change unless some claims to be sum with a case on themselves. + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote:Regarding people's suspicions of me. I've already explained my line of reasoning. My pressure on s0Lstice was a mistake on my part, simple as that. I'm willing to switch my vote on Mufaa, since I think he will be replaced/modkilled. All people had been saying up to that point in time amounted to, "Mufaa, we'd really like to hear from you." I wanted to see if he would make a response to some real pressure. I think we can agree that voting for someone is the most pressure you can put on them. At the time I was trying to do two things at once, pressure ShiaoPi and pressure Mufaa. I guess I didn't make it clear what I was doing. Also, I hadn't considered this: Show nested quote +---snip
Also, get your votes off Mufaa. He will be replaced/modkilled if he doesn't do crap. Otherwise, we can lynch him D2. He's guaranteed to be lynched D2 if he does pop in to vote, so I won't concern myself with him anymore. My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post. + Show Spoiler +Just came back from university.
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense.
Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game.
I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied.
The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler +Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me.
Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say.
sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler +Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia:
I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression. Let's look at his suspicions of hegeo. + Show Spoiler +I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +) Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Once again this is "suspicion" that he doesn't actually have to commit to, and he hopes he won't be held accountable for. I would ask you all this, who would be more damaging as scum? The actions I've taken in the game have all been actions that I've committed to. (barring the mistake I made with s0Lstice, but that was just me being dumb.) You can actually tie me to what I've written and hold me accountable later in the game, whereas ShiaoPi seems to have some sort of "escape clause" in almost every single one of his posts. The only thing he's been adamant about has been his FOS of s0Lstice, and that pressure has a built in escape to it, seeing as he can excuse himself by saying that s0Lstice had pressured him first. Anyway, what are people's thoughts on this? Seeing as I'll be away for an hour or two I'm going to go ahead and vote. ##unVote: Mufaa ##Vote: ShiaoPi you switch away and point out the obvious about Mufaa. Not useful at all, except that it stops people from accusing you of being obvious scum. ShiaoPi was being fair to sciberia, if anything. It was pretty much the first content post and clearly, sciberia was inexperienced and had questions to ask us. Ok, so you point out that SHiaoPi repeated your arguement. That's fair, but if you criticize him, go criticize yourself too. Sciberia was new to the game. he flipped town which confirms that his questions were a valid attempt to understand the game and ShiaoPi clearly just trying to see how Sciberia responds. I'll admit here that ShiaoPi is very noncommital, but i think your are being quite overcommital with your vote based on this case that you could almost apply to yourself. + Show Spoiler +On May 24 2012 07:39 Miltonkram wrote:
ShiaoPi, I did not deliberately disregard your later posts. However, real life has gotten in the way of me posting more content and my follow up analysis of your later posts was left undone. Suffice to say, I think what you call play style is actually your built in excuse for your scummy behavior. I think the healthy town atmosphere has forced you to be more active than you originally planned, and only after you were pressured by s0Lstice and myself did you begin to post decent, but not good, content. If I may sum up your play style for the sake of time:
-Lurk until there is pressure on you
-Respond to pressure with mostly defensive statements
-When that doesn't work, begin to put counter-pressure on your attacker
-Bandwagon on me once you see that I'm a prime lynch
I'd post more direct analysis, but once again, time is running short.
Everyone, I hope you can figure out why this is scummy activity in my eyes. If I get lynched today, I hope you keep this in mind. The pressure seems to be off ShiaoPi right now, so unless I can miraculously convince you all to vote for him I guess I'll have to switch my targets.
On May 24 2012 07:54 Miltonkram wrote:
Very well, I don't like making this move, but if we lynch hegeo, there is at least a small chance of him being mafia.
##unVote: ShiaoPi
##Vote: hegeo
For the record, if you lynch me and see me flip town, that doesn't mean hegeo is mafia. Too much of his case has been circumstantial, and too much of it has been just a few vocal players tunneling him.
If you don't believe hegeo was scum, don't vote him. But you seem keen on joining the bandwagon for him. Also, no analysis here: so you don't have to defend yourself against false analysis and to claim that you just want a majority vote. + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 06:12 Miltonkram wrote:
I think we all need to take a step back and look at the events of D1 a little more logically and less reactively. Why would a scum team both tunnel the same player? The only thing we're sure of is that hegeo flipped town, that doesn't make his analysis correct, anymore than it makes it incorrect. That being said, since Release and Mordanis were the two to put the most pressure on hegeo, I'd like to analyze their play under all possible circumstances.
Mafia + Mafia
Why would a scum team link their names D1 of the game? I think we all agree that Mordanis and Release were the most vocal against hegeo, and that could mean they tunneled him because they saw him as a weak target that they wouldn't get much flak for going against. If they are both scum, this is the most likely explanation of their actions. However, I just don't see a good enough reason for scum to band together on D1. That's a short-sighted play that would come back to bite them in the ass later. Possibility: least likely.
Townie + Townie
If both players were indeed town, an explanation of their actions could be that they just weren't ever satisfied with hegeo's defense. Let's face it, hegeo did not do a good job of defending himself. If he had, I would be the one lynched and he'd still be alive. So far, besides their knee-jerk reactions to hegeo's post, I'd say that they both have had decent, but not great town play. The bad news is, they've both played really scummy ever since hegeo's big reveal. Possibility: still unlikely, but more likely than M + M.
Townie + Mafia
Here's how I think it happened. The townie player felt he had a good case against his percieved scum target, and was encouraged that others felt the same way. The scum player knew he wouldn't be the only one targeted when hegeo flipped town and thus pulled the trigger and kept pressure on him. Worst case scenario for the scum player is a 50/50 situation where both he and the townie player are under pressure. Possibility: most likely situation.
That is my read on last night's events. The good news is I think we have the scum player in the worst possible situation. A 50/50 lynch is still better than a 2/7 lynch. I'm going to go over both Mordanis' and Release's filters to see what kind of a case can be made against them. I've been thinking a lot about these events and I think my analysis is pretty good. Thoughts on this anyone?
we've been over this: too many assumptions, an attempt to fool the town. + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 10:20 Miltonkram wrote:@ Release- Misinformation? Where? All I'm trying to do is explain the assumption that I'll be working from as I analyze you and Mordanis's posts. In my post I was stating all the possibilities so that I could begin eliminating those possibilities that are less likely. From this point on, I am assuming that between the two of you (Release, Mordanis), I'm pretty sure one of you is scum and one of you is town. Let me restate this plainly: I don't think both of you are mafia. I don't think both of you are town. I think one of you is mafia and one of you is town. I believe this for the reasons I stated in my last long post. Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 08:13 Release wrote:---snip Just answering the last part first: 2/7? You really think that a lynch is completely random? Trying to draw the town away from doing a real case on someone like you( who already has a substantial case) so they can get that 50/50 lynch? Remember D1: we had a 50/50 lynch (in the town's eyes, it was 100/0 because both seemed scummy, but my point is that there were 2 candidates). Stop trying to trick others with the same illusions that Hegeo did; it's what got him lynched. This is so full of shit and scum. No, of course I don't think lynching is completely random. I was shortening my reasoning because it wasn't the main thrust of my post. If we did just flip a coin deciding to lynch you or Mordanis, I say we'd have a 50/50 chance to hit mafia. We can do better than that though, with good analysis we'll find out which one of you is scum.
On May 25 2012 08:13 Release wrote:
---snip
And so what if we pressured him? He seemed scummy. We're supposed to pressure scummy players. If we didn't, we would have your dream random lynch scenario where a townie is more likely lynched. You would love that wouldn't you?
Your case was the alternative to Hegeo's case. We chose him and we seemed to have forgotten about you. I haven't. If i'm still alive after the day post, you better watch yourself.
##FOS: Milton
Holy crap, stop playing so defensively. I'm not even sure if you're the half of the duo that's scum. I'm just laying the groundwork for my analysis of your (you and Mordanis's) posting. Also stop labeling any analysis you disagree with as WIFOM. I think you may be the one who doesn't understand its definition.
Since Release seems impervious to reason, I'll put this out to the rest of the town. I don't care if you think I'm scum or not, the points I made in my post were good ones. Do you disagree with the assumptions I'm making? If you do it's best to speak up now, because I plan on basing my later analysis on these assumptions.
an assumption based defense; scummy Accusing me of labeling analysis as WIFOM. Your assumptions absolutely were WIFOM because there is nothing concrete to go by. + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 11:34 Miltonkram wrote:I'm going to be reading the filters for a while, so no posts from me for a bit. Right now my top scumreads are: -ShiaoPi: I think he excuses his scummy play by calling it play style. He came into the game with lurker/defensive play in mind, and only after he realized such play wouldn't cut it did he really get active. -Release/Mordanis: I'm not sure which one of these is scum, but I'm convinced that one of them used the other to cover their scumminess. Lastly, I've defended my play here: + Show Spoiler +On May 23 2012 19:02@ Golden- You raise several good points, and I will do my best to explain my line of thinking. First you stated about me: Show nested quote +Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on. The intention of my posts was to generate pressure and discussion. This being my first game, I felt that things such as the list I made and the pressure on sciberbia would be viewed as more threatening than they were actually taken. I believe s0Lstice used the term "weaksauce" to describe them, and looking back, I'm going to have to agree with him. In short, I think you're making a big deal out of some town play of mine that was admittedly less than stellar. The next part of your post states: he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure. it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future. next. after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi). This next part is actually kind of funny, it was a reading comprehension error on my part, a reading comprehension error of his reading comprehension error. I thought it was crazy how flimsy his FOS was, I feel a bit stupid now that I realize what he was saying. Essentially, I did the exact same thing to him that he did to me. As for the last part of your post towards me: he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in)
I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy. I want you to know that I am still gunning for ShiaoPi. I hope we don't have to lynch Mufaa, but he needs to know that my vote for him will stand until he starts posting or I think he'll get modkilled/replaced. Right now, I'm going to continue pressuring ShiaoPi. Even if we don't lynch him today, our late game will be much better if we can get him to post something other than his wishy-washy defensive play. If you still have a problem with my defense that's fine. Quite honestly, I'm kind of expecting to get lynched tonight anyway. Maybe when/if I get lynched it will be for the best and people will actually take my accusations seriously, but I'm going to continue to play the best I can no matter what. I'll be back in a little while. and from here, you make some statements on Mordanis and I that have since been addressed so i won't go over again. + Show Spoiler +On May 27 2012 03:59 Miltonkram wrote:
We need to come to a consensus on skware quickly. We have less than 5 hours until deadline. skware is a pure policy lynch at this point, we simply don't have enough information to make a case for him or against him. Since he stated that he likely won't be back until after the deadline we need to plan for the worst case scenario, that he won't make it back in time.
We don't gain much info from him if he flips either way, under that line of reasoning he could very well be scum. Thoughts?
Golden's defense does not satisfy me, and that leads me to believe he's having difficulty figuring out a way to defend his actions. With that in mind
##Vote: O.Golden_ne
If we decide that skware is the policy lynch I will switch my vote to him. Mordanis, I want to hear a defense from you, otherwise I will consider switching my vote to you.
A vote on Golden as well as some random talk about lynching Skware. Like with mufaa, we don't need to worry about Skware until he disappears and probably gets modkilled. Then, you make a sentence which essentially gives you an opportunity to jump on a Mordanis bandwagon, should it start. So, if i die tonight, i beg that you lynch Milton. Lynch him to hell.
From the bolded: You suddenly seem to have dropped his case. That is scummy
And
suddenly you seem to have remembered your case on ShiaoPi after the lynch. Why not keep pushing his case until the very end if you actually believed that he was scum? . This is exactly what Release has been doing all game. He reads someone as scum, then returns to Milton. Reads someone else as scum, then returns to Milton. There is a contradiction in his play, and I thought that was why I misinterpreted what he said. Now I realize that it is just that, inconsistent. I find that very suspicious.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Logically everyone of us could be scum, so pointing out the obvious with skware is not helping us in any way. If you are not intent on going after him, why keep bringing him up?
In regards to Release:
I just skimmed through his filter again. I thought you could easily see his thoughtprocesses.
he went after hegeo and got him lynched, then goes after Milton until he sees that Milton is seemingly pushed into hegeos position and therefore agrees on the consensus lynch against golden. He tries to bait out a kp from mafia by going into overaggression against Milton but nothing happens, which seems to him like a confirmation in his read that Milton might actually be a townie so now he is tunneling you. (Not saying that I agree with him in all points but that is how his train of thought seems to have went to me.)
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
EBWOP: I am going to bed now...hopefully by tomorrow skware has reappeared from the dead. (Oh and bring Milton in here too)
|
Here's some food for thought: (theoretical shit about skware)
+ Show Spoiler +
Case 1:If Skware is a townie and doesn't vote, we automatically lose because the scum can force a mislynch.
Case 2:However, if Skware is scum and doesn't vote, the town has control over the vote and should therefore vote him (due to the fact he is scum).
How should we take this information?
Only by doing this can we truly decide if we should lynch Skware or not.
Which brings us to case 3:
Skware does come online. In this case, we continue to proceed as we are now.
Get online and stay online for the thirty minutes before the deadline. I don't give a shit if you have to tell your boss you're taking a shit or having to set an alarm for the middle of the night. Get online.
|
not a mislynch: a nolynch
|
Get online and stay online for the thirty minutes before the deadline. I don't give a shit if you have to tell your boss you're taking a shit or having to set an alarm for the middle of the night. Get online.
@ Release- Amen to that. At least there's something we can agree on.
For this lynch I've gone entirely back to square 1. I'm trying to let go of all assumptions I've made so far, they certainly haven't helped me this game.
As far as I can tell there are a couple of possible scenarios. A Mordanis/ShiaoPi scum team makes the most sense to me. Both made some strange plays D1, ShiaoPi with the defense of his game play and Mordanis with his "emotions." However, all that depends entirely on skware not being mafia.
If, and this is a big if, skware's lurking has been intentional a few possibilities emerge. From a pure game plan standpoint it would make sense for scum to have one player lurk and one player be really active. If that's the case, scum teams of Release/skware or Mordanis/skware make sense. I need to read over the filters with this line of thought in mind. I'll post again when I think I have the answers.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
still no sign of skware...
|
Right now, all we can do is to keep a placeholder vote on Skware.
##unvote
##vote Skware
i am scum
+ Show Spoiler +Bet you never red that in mafia before.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
well I actually did read that before but does it matter?
|
|
|
Right now, all we can do is to keep a placeholder vote on Skware. ##unvote ##vote Skware i am scum+ Show Spoiler +Bet you never red that in mafia before.
@ Release, I'm assuming that's a joke. It is pretty funny, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. There is a reason lynch all liars is a policy though, so try and make sure it's obvious that you're joking in the future.
After looking through the filters, every possible scum pair that makes sense besides Release/skware involves Mordanis. Mordanis/ShiaoPi makes sense. Mordanis/skware makes sense. Release if you're scum I tip my hat to you. If that's the case, you've certainly fooled me.
##Vote: Mordanis
|
NoNoNo:
We have to vote Skware until he comes online.
Look at your pairs: Mordanis/ShiaoPi . Those two can force a nolynch regardless of our vote unless Skware helps us.
Mordanis/Skware: Skware is scum? Vote him.
This is why i repeat, we have to be online right before the deadline.
|
Oh duh. I see what you meant there. Just for the record if skware does come online and explain his play I will support a lynch of Mordanis.
|
##unVote: Mordanis
##Vote: skware
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
2,5 hours to lynch, I really hope this better be working. Really do not want to gamble on that shit.
Hey skware you here?
##vote: skware
|
Do we have a choice? Any plans we make without him hinge on him being mafia. If this is the way the game ends I'm going to be really disappointed.
|
On May 30 2012 05:55 ShiaoPi wrote:
2,5 hours to lynch, I really hope this better be working. Really do not want to gamble on that shit.
Hey skware you here?
##vote: skware
If he isn't here to vote, we need at least one of the scum to vote for another scum to not lose. That is, if he doesn't vote for anyone, the two scum can keep from voting and force a no-lynch, at which point it'll be 2 scum - 2 town, at which point they win. That's assuming he isn't scum himself. If he is, we lynch him and go to another LYLO. Point is, if he isn't here to vote, town loses no matter what unless he's scum in which case we should vote for him.
##vote: skware
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
What annoys me to no end is that there is nothing town can do now besides going for the 2/5 chance that he is scum. If he is town we will not get enough votes to get a lynch and scum can easily mask themselves beneath the vote on the "only logical" choice that is left for town.
It is just a fucking frustrating situation for LYLO and I am actually really pissed about this...
|
Not as pissed as I am, I can assure you. He seemed very enthusiastic about replacing in. :/
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
At least that is something :S
|
On May 30 2012 07:40 ShiaoPi wrote:
What annoys me to no end is that there is nothing town can do now besides going for the 2/5 chance that he is scum. If he is town we will not get enough votes to get a lynch and scum can easily mask themselves beneath the vote on the "only logical" choice that is left for town.
It is just a fucking frustrating situation for LYLO and I am actually really pissed about this...
Yeah, its sort of a shitty way for a game into which I think we've all poured a lot of time and effort into to end just because someone forgot his TL.net login or something. There really is no other option though. And I think if we made it more clear that lurking would lead to being killed (maybe D2), we may have scared him into posting more.
|
Not your fault VE. I was really enjoying this game until we hit D3.
|
|
|
Day end
lynch proceed. Give us the inevitable VE.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
|
Night 3![[image loading]](http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4123/4877177862_a3b7f4e705_z.jpg)
When everything was said and done, the town decided to destroy the silent one.
Skware the Vanilla Townie has been destroyed.
Release the Vanilla Townie has been endgamed.
ShiaoPi the Vanilla Townie has been endgamed.
Miltonkram the Mafia Goon and
Mordanis the Mafia Framer have won with a Perfect Victory.
As a personal note, I'm sorry inactivity was such a deciding factor in this game. The names of the offending parties have been noted.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
god damn it, I knew I should have pushed Mordanis
|
GG guys. Credit goes to Mordanis for the win since I don't think I played well.
Thanks for hosting VE. I had a lot of fun even though I don't feel satisfied with the way this ended.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
|
I'm sorry Shiao and Release... I am ashamed to win because of this. I was happy to play scum, but this could have been so much better for everyone.
|
To be honest, I thought you guys were going to pull it out. This is one of the best newbie games I've seen in terms of posting - all of you guys were really putting your all into everything you posted and after the D1 flip I thought for sure one of Milton/Mord would be next.
Mafia QT
Again, I'm sorry the replacement didn't work out. I have a feeling if he had tried at all this could have been a town win. :/
|
Wow. That D1 case was by scum? Very well-played Mordanis, I didn't think that a newbie would have the guts to go full out like that; I had ShiaoPi's more subtle bringing up Mufaa when the heat was on Miltonkram as the mafia scum save, didn't expect the full out blatant case.
Will be posting the few thoughts I had reading this game later.
|
I have to give the town some respect. You definitely made us work for the win. You guys had me really nervous for most of the game.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I must say I was really impressed with your play scumteam, even if skware did came back, I would have had a hard time to believe anyone, I practically had all of us as scum in LYLO so good job on setting it up that way !
|
GG. Strong Mafia.
To be honest I think town would have lost this game. If skware had come online, i would've busted all of our asses to get on mordanis.
Then we would have another LYLO, (and if i survive the night), i would be on Skware like i would've been on Mordanis.
Milton, I don't even remember what it was that got you my trust, but i pretty much completely thought you were town.
|
And just a note now that the game has finished: The bait post (against milton) was intended to get Solstice killed. In my mind, he was the next lynch target for starting the Golden case and I knew that i would have to be alive to get a different case.
I still can't believe Milton is a scum though.
|
 How can Milton be scum? I need to look again.
|
Release, I must ask: Were you using Milton as a litmus test at the end? I thought you were trying to use whoever's bandwagon he jumped on to confirm someone as town. Also, why were you so suspicious of me?
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Just go over his filter from day 1 again >_> You can "easily" see it then. But I admit I got kind of blinded by his posts in day 2
|
On May 30 2012 08:47 Mordanis wrote:
I'm sorry Shiao and Release... I am ashamed to win because of this. I was happy to play scum, but this could have been so much better for everyone.
I think the game would have been maybe one day longer, but in the end, i still think scum would have won. So be proud.
|
On May 30 2012 09:06 Mordanis wrote:
Release, I must ask: Were you using Milton as a litmus test at the end? I thought you were trying to use whoever's bandwagon he jumped on to confirm someone as town. Also, why were you so suspicious of me?
Everytime i read through your filter, I kept think bandwagon, bandwagon, bandwagon. The red hegeo w/o a vote and then you vote after my case and vote just stinked of scum all over.
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On another note I am 0-2 in TL Mafia games and always helped to lynch a blue role day 1 T_T
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
There are a couple of massive tells both scum dropped at a couple of stages, I'll rustle them up at some stage so you can have an idea what to avoid saying.
Not to take anything away from the mafia here, on the whole they played a very nice game.
Big shame for town that it was decided by skware being inactive. Ruined a really nice game.
|
On May 30 2012 09:07 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:06 Mordanis wrote:
Release, I must ask: Were you using Milton as a litmus test at the end? I thought you were trying to use whoever's bandwagon he jumped on to confirm someone as town. Also, why were you so suspicious of me? Everytime i read through your filter, I kept think bandwagon, bandwagon, bandwagon. The red hegeo w/o a vote and then you vote after my case and vote just stinked of scum all over.
This is just such a weird thing to me because I actually was the first to post any accusation of Hegeo and also the first to post suspicion on Golden.
|
And to clear up what I meant about being ashamed is really more like this: I am unable to feel the elation I felt at winning in my last game because my team won due to the bad play of the other side. Perhaps I just have a better time as town, having to figure things out rather than just trying to manipulate everyone. Meh. I'm curious as to what Release and Shiao were thinking, but I feel no great satisfaction in myself.
Shiao and Release: you guys were much stronger than I expected. I don't know if you were intentionally holding back all game or what, but at several points I felt like we had the game won ezpz, and then for some reason (I still have no idea why Shiao was defending Release at the end), you guys walled up the whole that I was expecting to exploit. GG guys, I'm sorry it had to end this way.
|
To me, your post of Hegeo was like saying "If there is a Hegeo bandwagon started (Since Hegeo targeted myself, i started it), then i'll hop on." However, i didn't realize this until long after the Day1 lynch.
You case on Golden mixed with ShiaoPi looked like: "i don't know who is will be lynched today, but ill go ahead and post both so i can hop on whichever bandwagon gets started."
Solstice focused on Golden alone. Then he added a vote too. And i think it was he who actually convinced the town to vote golden.
|
I was kind of holding back my true thoughts and intentions because i feel that revealing too much gives the scum a "role model townie." But i think i held back too much information because there was never really a "Mordanis case" after the immediate post-Hegeo suspicion.
|
Ugh. I knew it.
GG Mordanis
GG Milton
wp guys.
EFF YOUU SKWAREE
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 30 2012 09:23 Mordanis wrote:
And to clear up what I meant about being ashamed is really more like this: I am unable to feel the elation I felt at winning in my last game because my team won due to the bad play of the other side. Perhaps I just have a better time as town, having to figure things out rather than just trying to manipulate everyone. Meh. I'm curious as to what Release and Shiao were thinking, but I feel no great satisfaction in myself.
Shiao and Release: you guys were much stronger than I expected. I don't know if you were intentionally holding back all game or what, but at several points I felt like we had the game won ezpz, and then for some reason (I still have no idea why Shiao was defending Release at the end), you guys walled up the whole that I was expecting to exploit. GG guys, I'm sorry it had to end this way.
Aww, don't feel bad, lurkers happen ^^.
I did hold back quite a bit, especially day 1, since if you look at Newbie Mini Mafia XIII. I was much more active/aggressive in that game, which got me shot night1 :D So I tried to avoid that scenario, which resulted in me almost getting lynched day1...
Milton had been on my radar since day1, but his posts in day 2 really let me think twice, it was simply so much better than the previous ones. After Hegeo's case I thoroughly went through your and Release's filter and I can't quite explain why but you seemed scummier than Release, who I put tentively into the aggressive townie corner.
So I had you as scum as well, but seeing that my town cred was shredded because of my abysmal day 1 play I simply did not believe that a case from me on you would have swayed town's opinion. After sciberbia and s0lstice got taken out I had no one as a sure townread anymore, which was kind of really bad for me :D
Then at LYLO I felt that you tried to direct us at the single useless person we had left. After I had said that at least one scum must be on our vote I was fairly certain you were trying to distract us. So I tried to tunnel you into a scumslip and pray that skware would show up
|
On May 30 2012 09:03 Release wrote:
And just a note now that the game has finished: The bait post (against milton) was intended to get Solstice killed. In my mind, he was the next lynch target for starting the Golden case and I knew that i would have to be alive to get a different case.
I still can't believe Milton is a scum though.
lol how can't u see milton as scum? so obvious all game
|
we now learn to lynch lurkers day one
|
milton play was so bad and poor (especially in day1) that i thought, "No scum with half a brain would ever do this"
|
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On May 30 2012 09:40 O.Golden_ne wrote:
we now learn to lynch lurkers day one
hahaha, yeah we really should :D
|
turns out, He had a full brain.
|
This was a fun game to read. Well done guys!
Scum normally win the newbie games but you played really well here. You were active and pushed your agenda openly which made people think you were town 
Townies played well too. I agree with VE that this game had a lot of active and thorough posters who were let down by those who went missing. One of the better newbie games to read and I look forward to having a game with some of you.
Well done everyone!
|
On May 30 2012 09:42 Release wrote:
turns out, He had a full brain.
MiltonBRAIN
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I enjoyed following this game.
I think that if it weren't for skware you'd have had a change of pulling it together there, and compared with other newbie games this one had a good deal of analysis and a solid town atmosphere. You did a good job of reading and writing and keeping the thread moving. Unfortunately, leavers gonna leave ;_; but don't let that dishearten you from signing up for more games. I'd like to see you guys in the other games around here.
<3 gg
|
On May 30 2012 10:02 Blazinghand wrote:
I enjoyed following this game.
I think that if it weren't for skware you'd have had a change of pulling it together there, and compared with other newbie games this one had a good deal of analysis and a solid town atmosphere. You did a good job of reading and writing and keeping the thread moving. Unfortunately, leavers gonna leave ;_; but don't let that dishearten you from signing up for more games. I'd like to see you guys in the other games around here.
<3 gg
This. Activity can be an issue in the Newbie games, generally because people don't know if they like it or not and just lose interest. Keep in mind that there are a lot of people who play here outside the Newbie games and they'd LOVE a crop of players like the players in THIS GAME to stick it out.
|
I'll be playing my final newbie game in about 8 weeks (taking calc 2 during summer school, lots of fun ), and hopefully after that I'll move on to the big leagues
Also, right now I feel no drive to sign up for another game. It just ended in a kind of depressing way, but I'll probably feel the need to sign up again in about the time it take for summer school to run its course. And to all the non-newbies who obsed this: Thanks for the encouragement and help, I'll try to make to repay you with good games in the future! And VE, is there a QT for observers or hosts? I'd love to see what people who weren't in the game thought of my play.
HAH! I can edit! I forgot to say that I'm very grateful to VisceraEyes and Marv for hosting this game. You guys are teh bomb!
|
Obs QT
Sorry, forgot. It's a little lacking, it didn't even have any inhabitants until N1, but a good read.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
WAIT ARE YOU SERIOUS? THERE WAS AN OBS QT? How come marv didn't have it and you never responded to my PMs?
|
On May 30 2012 10:23 Blazinghand wrote:
WAIT ARE YOU SERIOUS? THERE WAS AN OBS QT? How come marv didn't have it and you never responded to my PMs?
Because you...he didn't....I mean....
......I forgot. Sorry.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 30 2012 10:24 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 10:23 Blazinghand wrote:
WAIT ARE YOU SERIOUS? THERE WAS AN OBS QT? How come marv didn't have it and you never responded to my PMs? your mother never loved you. I'm sorry
;______; *cries*
|
I hear she's a lovely lady though!
|
Ouch! that's like knocking someone off their bicycle and then saying "I'm sorry, here's some saline for your roadburn!"
On another note, I feel much better about my play after reading the obs QT ^^
|
Yeah dude crafty scum play was no small part of this victory - but inactivity won you guys the game ultimately, that's my firm belief.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
In a sense, the inactivity won the scumteam the game, but also robbed them of a chance to REALLY win the game, you know? Like if there was some mad trickery going on, then we'd be all like "amazing scum team" but now we're just like "meh leavers". The inactive kinda made it so not only did town not win, but scum didn't have an AWESOME win.
|
I toyed with the idea of writing an analysis of this game but I chickened out because I lack confidence in my skills.
But I will praise the activity brought out by (almost) everyone - reading the first few pages of D1 I already had a decent feel for where each player was coming from. I liked when sciberbia(?) posted a case on Milton and when people weren't talking about it he openly asked for opinions rather than letting it slide / get buried as it brought more discussion as well as attention on someone who seemed suspicious (regardless of the fact that he was mafia, if he was town it would also have benefits).
People were generally focused and apart from Mordanis' emotion business (which was probably mafia play) people treated each other like people which I really loved as it makes it easy and enjoyable to read. After seeing games like this, I wish I could play more newbie games. Good job guys.
|
Wait a second. I was a framer but there wasn't a DT? So in reality we were both goons? That's a real bummer.
|
gg Miltonkram and Mordanis
@Mordanis
I guess there sometimes has to be no DT even with framer just so the mafia can't always assume.
Metagame reasons notwithstanding, I think the setup slightly favored mafia. Isn't 1 DT/1 medic/5 VT/2 goons balanced? So we were basically short a DT. We had a 29.8% chance of town winning assuming random lynches, no roleclaims, and no medic saves.
Our choice of lynches wasn't good enough to make up the difference. While I agree that the inactivity of mufaa/skware ended up being a deciding factor, I also think inactivity by the townies before the deadlines hurt us a lot:
I regret not pushing a milton lynch the first day. I think I could have managed it because I had a lot of influence at the time. My excuse is that mufaa wasn't voting, release/golden weren't online, and hegeo didn't make his presence known. So I would have had to convince both solstice and mordanis(!) to vote milton in order to get the lynch.
Also, I think milton/mordanis might have been lynched over golden D2 if golden had been a bit more active in his defense. I assume he was busy with work/sleep.
Anyway, gg all. I enjoyed this game a lot
|
GG Mafia!
Was such a pleasure to play with you all, even though you killed me D1 (well, I feel I'm pretty much guilty of that myself).
I'll post more later, just wanted to say that I really felt the Mordanis/Release interactions were soo weird. I now realize that for this to happen, not both (sorry Release ) but only one of them needs to play weird. Nicely played by you, Mordanis and Milton (Mordanis, don't feel bad plz, you two deserved it. One additional very active townie would have helped us perhaps, but even then it would have been hard for us). Also, rest of town, was a pleasure to see so much effort especially also on D2.
Edit to clarify: with "weird" play (as in "scummy") I meant Mordanis, not Release
|
We came sooooo close to a correct lynch on day 1. Gah. I feel I played pretty badly. What's the use of huge analytical posts if the conclusions you draw are wrong >.< We had a chance to get Milton a second time on the day I pushed hard for the Golden lynch. In the absence of that case, I think Milton would have been the favorite. Granted, Mordanis did start the suspicion on Golden...I pretty much played right into their hands by doing the grunt work on the case. In my defense though I had started working on it before Mordanis mentioned him.
I think it's funny how easy it was to scumread after I was out of the game. Without any pressure to post/read I guessed Milton/Mordanis, while in-game I was defending both of them.
GG to all, and nice job by mafia for keeping us fooled.
|
On May 30 2012 14:54 hegeo wrote:GG Mafia! Was such a pleasure to play with you all, even though you killed me D1 (well, I feel I'm pretty much guilty of that myself). I'll post more later, just wanted to say that I really felt the Mordanis/Release interactions were soo weird. I now realize that for this to happen, not both (sorry Release ) but only one of them needs to play weird. Nicely played by you, Mordanis and Milton (Mordanis, don't feel bad plz, you two deserved it. One additional very active townie would have helped us perhaps, but even then it would have been hard for us). Also, rest of town, was a pleasure to see so much effort especially also on D2.
If it makes you feel any better, I still don't understand what he was trying to do :/
And I feel bad because the game ended with a fizzle. If I had dug a yard under everyone else's plan and made the hoist to their own petard (Hamlet FTW), I would have felt great. The way things went though, it was just sort of a foregone conclusion, that was decided when the bandwagon started on Golden. I feel like I could have shown. That being said, Release apparently being convinced that I was scum without anything but a "this post doesn't make you shine as town", while being convinced that Milton was town after concluding that every action of his was scummy, and apparently still backing that up is still messing with my head. I have no idea why he didn't at least make a case on me. Perhaps he was fairly certain (as was I) that skware wouldn't return, and didn't want to put in several hours of work to make a solid case only to lose the game by the two scum refusing to vote (or vote for someone else).
|
Just thinking back to my theory on "the scum are splitting our attention b/w hegeo and milton/sols/gold/shiao" i never figured the scum would send of their own into the line of fire. Smart play.
|
On May 30 2012 15:14 Mordanis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 30 2012 14:54 hegeo wrote:GG Mafia! Was such a pleasure to play with you all, even though you killed me D1 (well, I feel I'm pretty much guilty of that myself). I'll post more later, just wanted to say that I really felt the Mordanis/Release interactions were soo weird. I now realize that for this to happen, not both (sorry Release ) but only one of them needs to play weird. Nicely played by you, Mordanis and Milton (Mordanis, don't feel bad plz, you two deserved it. One additional very active townie would have helped us perhaps, but even then it would have been hard for us). Also, rest of town, was a pleasure to see so much effort especially also on D2. If it makes you feel any better, I still don't understand what he was trying to do :/ And I feel bad because the game ended with a fizzle. If I had dug a yard under everyone else's plan and made the hoist to their own petard (Hamlet FTW), I would have felt great. The way things went though, it was just sort of a foregone conclusion, that was decided when the bandwagon started on Golden. I feel like I could have shown. That being said, Release apparently being convinced that I was scum without anything but a "this post doesn't make you shine as town", while being convinced that Milton was town after concluding that every action of his was scummy, and apparently still backing that up is still messing with my head. I have no idea why he didn't at least make a case on me. Perhaps he was fairly certain (as was I) that skware wouldn't return, and didn't want to put in several hours of work to make a solid case only to lose the game by the two scum refusing to vote (or vote for someone else).
Quoting Hamlet, nice
This one here always makes me think that Shakespeare already played some Mafia:
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts
So just for me to understand it: Did you really see this "passive-aggressive" stuff or an overly emotional tone in my posts? I'm just curious and since it's not my mother tongue I really don't know if you just misinterpreted me on purpose or not.
FYI: I would have tried to lynch you D2 so hard (well, I already voted for you D1) and seeing your knee-jerk after my crazy post... To be honest, I hoped for something like that to happen.
I also had the gut feeling that Shiao was town, that's why I said "it's not ShiaoPi" when you were trying to get a lynch between me, Milton and Shiao. And again: don't be disappointed, both of you! You weren't lynched at any point in time, so you must have done fairly well at least.
|
This being my first game I was just testing the waters with those D1 comments that nearly got me lynched. The rest of the game was just me trying to make up for my D1 gaffes without making it obvious that Mordanis and I were a team.
Sciberbia you have no idea how much you freaked me out with that analysis post on me. It was like you were living inside my head. Good job with that one. You got me feeling really nervous
|
Thanks milton - beginner's luck I suppose. I wasn't completely convinced myself or I would have pushed harder to lynch you. In truth, a lot of my motivation for the original post was just to gain some townie cred, which I really needed at that point. Looking forward to playing with you in XV :D
|
I'm curious to know what others were thinking about me tunneling shiaopi on day 1. Did this make me look scummy?
|
Hey solstice, I didn't really think that made you look scummy, you weren't the only one to look into what was going on with Shiao, although I felt that his answers were honest and not overly aggressive.
All I can say for myself is that I was pretty confident about my read on you being town. One could see the effort and you also did a lot of structuring in your posts. I just wish I had made it more clear that I really thought Mordanis was scum because of his whole play on D1 (again, he was riding a dead horse attacking me because of one post timing, emotional fluff etc.), and not only because I felt that the Mordanis-Release thing looked scummy to me. This was my biggest mistake I suppose.
|
On May 30 2012 11:55 slOosh wrote:
I toyed with the idea of writing an analysis of this game but I chickened out because I lack confidence in my skills.
should do it anyway mang, good place to start with a newbie game! im sure the more active guys would love to hear an analysis of it, i know i would.
|
hegeo,
My reading of your big post just prior to death was very much affected because I was trying to consider the argument as a package deal. It became difficult to separate Mordanis from Release...I mistakenly cleared Mordanis because I was so sure Release was town. You made some good points about Mordanis; coupled with what he posted just before and after your death, it was definitely enough to pursue. The biggest moment for me was this:
On May 24 2012 08:39 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 08:37 ShiaoPi wrote:
Just finished reading it.
Sadly it is too late to get some discussion on that post before lynch.
Mordanis your timing is incredibly scary. Especially just that single remark in the entire post stuck you as most important to respond to?
Either you are a really fast reader or we just had a knee-jerk from you.
Anyway, really waiting for the flip now... I only read a little bit..... And I just explained why. Anyways I'm off to work. Here's hoping for some red!!
Not sure how I let myself forget this. The way you doggedly pursued the case even when your death was assured (only a townie would do this) made Mordanis 'hope for red' extremely suspect. I think it was because sciberbia said that it was weird I was so sure you were town at that point, but I really should have trusted my logic and stayed on the trail you blazed.
|
My reading of your big post just prior to death was very much affected because I was trying to consider the argument as a package deal. It became difficult to separate Mordanis from Release...
Well, that was also why I started the shit in the beginning (although I don't really think I poked too aggressively). When I decided to call people out, I didn't really feel that we as town were trying to force errors or to point out things we wondered about (Sciberbia pretty much said in his later posts about Mordanis that he wondered about some of the things too).
After getting voted by Release/Mordanis, my train of thought was:
+ Show Spoiler +1. You surely hit scum (either Mordanis or Mordanis/Release). You will die early (<=N1) since they were very aggressive towards you, but nobody else really questioned them in thread (I especially asked people for their read on me and/or Mordanis, for me it seemed like they believed him more).
2. When you die without making your case, your dead is surely in vain.
3. I was like 70%/30% sure my dead would come D1, with me trying to argue against Mordanis and Release (even though Release was town, he made VERY clear that he wanted to see me dead no matter what, others considered voting for me too) I might have shifted that to 50/50, still Mufaa wasn't there, so I wasn't sure (I also wasn't sure wether other blue roles were there, like a jailkeeper or whatever, so I didn't want to lynch ShiaoPi. Me dying in N1 for sure had also not allowed me to protect anybody).
4. While defending myself I couldn't have worked through the posts/filters, so 50% me dead and no information. Without trying to defend: 70% dead, but the best read I could give at that point in time. So I decided for the latter.
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
To hegeo: if it looks like you're gonna be lynched, claim!
To s0lstice: this is why you consider people on their own. One of the biggest mistakes newbie towns make is forever connecting people. You find ONE scum and then once they have flipped, THEN you can look back at how people relate to them.
|
Yea I even made a conscious effort to do that after Mattchew harped on it in Holy Roman Mafia. Its a shame I let it slide at one of the key points in the game. There was definitely information to be had surrounding the event of hegeo's lynch.
That aside, I'm amazed at how small the margin of error was in this game. That's part of the territory for mini set-ups though I suppose. Our day 1 medic mislynch meant we HAD to get day 2 right, otherwise we end up at day 3 with 3 townies (1 inactive) and 2 scum. This is what happened obviously...I chuckle when I think that Milton and Mordanis could have scum-claimed on day 3 and still wouldn't have been lynched.
|
@Marv
Thanks for the input. Is claiming just a means to help town after I flip in case scum counter-claims? Or do you think that I could have saved myself by doing so?
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
You're right, the margins are small. I felt a Milton lynch was a definite possibility at some points, it just drifted away from it. If you managed to lynch him, a couple of posts like these could raise suspicions:
On May 23 2012 07:01 Mordanis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 06:39 ShiaoPi wrote:I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. ) Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read. Admittedly, he isn't the perfect case for scum, but my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie. Also, the case against Milton is pretty weak (even though he can't match what malt can do to justify God's ways to man). Solstice seems inactive, but I don't think there's been a very solid case on him. I can't even think of anyone else who has a group of people actively being suspicious of. Honestly, they're all sort of decent candidates for a D1 lynch, but I don't see nearly as much of an argument for the others as for Hegeo. Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people. This may go back to my being burned by protecting mafia, but I think it will be best for everyone to post their own thoughts on matters rather than explicitly rebuting an accusation.
Wishy washy post, soft defends Milton, before saying people should not defend other people and speak for themselves
On May 24 2012 01:48 Mordanis wrote:
There's one thing I have to say: We have about 8 hours till the deadline, and we have 4 votes in for players besides Milton. I'm not entirely confident in our ability to switch to a new player in this time. And if a few people try, and mufaa doesn't vote, we'll have a really hard time getting to lynch anybody at all. Just to make sure there is no confusion, I'm fine with a lynch for Milton, but I'm afraid we won't be able to lynch anyone if a few people go all out to try to lynch him.
Especially this post rang alarm bells for me. Saying he's happy to lynch Milton, but trying to find any bad reason not to do so.
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
On May 30 2012 22:59 hegeo wrote:
@Marv
Thanks for the input. Is claiming just a means to help town after I flip in case scum counter-claims? Or do you think that I could have saved myself by doing so?
You could likely have saved yourself and that's why you should do so. If you claim blue it is very risky to lynch you, and the case on you wasn't that strong. If it looks likely you're getting lynched, claim! In this case it would have led to lynching scum instead of you.
Edit: and don't claim 5 mins before deadline or something, make it several hours before deadline so people can process the information.
|
Marvel can you point out Milton's posts that made you read him as scum?
|
United Kingdom36158 Posts
Well, I think town did an ok job of that themselves, it was just never pushed through
|
@marvellosity
Is it really best not to lynch people who roleclaim in this setup?
If hegeo had claimed medic and we decided not to lynch him for that reason, wouldn't milton have just claimed jailkeeper or DT or something, and been able to prevent his lynch as well?
|
@s0sltice
I read you as town most of the game. I just didn't find your tunneling of shiaopi very helpful because I didn't think your case was that strong, and it interfered with our discussion of milton/hegeo. The only thing I found suspicious was your reaction to hegeo's post. I was a lot more paranoid than you were. I thought "maybe hegeo deliberately waited until the last minute, and then made a huge post where he implies he will flip town, in an attempt to get us to panic and not lynch him." Obviously I was wrong. My bad on that one. If we had all swapped to milton in those last 5 minutes, it would have likely won us the game.
|
On May 31 2012 01:59 sciberbia wrote:
@marvellosity
Is it really best not to lynch people who roleclaim in this setup?
If hegeo had claimed medic and we decided not to lynch him for that reason, wouldn't milton have just claimed jailkeeper or DT or something, and been able to prevent his lynch as well?
It's best to look at the claim and see if it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, then you lynch it. If it does, then you lynch the next target.
You shouldn't blindly believe claims as they happen, but you shouldn't assume they're all a lie either. Like everything else in this game, you have to analyze it and see if it makes sense.
|
@sciberbia
Lynching Milton would have pretty surely won us the game, but it was mostly my non-reactiveness in the hours before the lynch that made lynching me the more attractive option. BTW I think you did a good job on D1, I would have protected you N1 since my town-read on you was my strongest
I sincerely also didn't know what else to do the hours before lynch to defend myself but to refer to my posts, since I felt I had addressed (more or less) every point Mordanis made up against me, and pretty much answered Releases' heated posts. ShiaoPi seemed to be OK with it, and you even were kind of defending me before.
BTW I didn't do it before so: Thanks to VE and Marv for hosting this game!
|
On May 31 2012 02:13 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 01:59 sciberbia wrote:
@marvellosity
Is it really best not to lynch people who roleclaim in this setup?
If hegeo had claimed medic and we decided not to lynch him for that reason, wouldn't milton have just claimed jailkeeper or DT or something, and been able to prevent his lynch as well? It's best to look at the claim and see if it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, then you lynch it. If it does, then you lynch the next target. You shouldn't blindly believe claims as they happen, but you shouldn't assume they're all a lie either. Like everything else in this game, you have to analyze it and see if it makes sense.
VE, would you have believed me if I claimed in that situation? I just felt I had two of the most active and "established" players 100% against me, and no reaction to my questions about Mordanis' behaviour against me from the other players. And even if I didn't get lynched, mafia would have surely killed me N1. But you're right of course, we could have lynched mafia D1. Still, some players were against ShiaoPi so with Mordanis and Milton switching to him, we would perhaps have lynched him not me. But this is maybe too much of hypothetical thinking by me here.
|
Honestly, I'm not sure...I would have looked at your claim and decided if I believed you based on what you've said and what's in the thread. But regardless of whether you think town is going to believe you or not, it's optimal play to claim before you die just so town has all the necessary information to make an educated decision. Remember, town is at an information disadvantage...and while it's true that they got the information anyway after you were lynched, there's always the possibility that town will believe you and lynch scum instead of you (who is the only person in the game who's alignment you're sure of.)
Also account for this: scum are going to FAKE CLAIM to avoid dying - so if you don't claim before you die, then scum are at a strategic advantage in addition to an information advantage...because they're willing to do what it takes to live.
|
On May 30 2012 23:01 marvellosity wrote:You're right, the margins are small. I felt a Milton lynch was a definite possibility at some points, it just drifted away from it. If you managed to lynch him, a couple of posts like these could raise suspicions: Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 07:01 Mordanis wrote:On May 23 2012 06:39 ShiaoPi wrote:I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. ) Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read. Admittedly, he isn't the perfect case for scum, but my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie. Also, the case against Milton is pretty weak (even though he can't match what malt can do to justify God's ways to man). Solstice seems inactive, but I don't think there's been a very solid case on him. I can't even think of anyone else who has a group of people actively being suspicious of. Honestly, they're all sort of decent candidates for a D1 lynch, but I don't see nearly as much of an argument for the others as for Hegeo. Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people. This may go back to my being burned by protecting mafia, but I think it will be best for everyone to post their own thoughts on matters rather than explicitly rebuting an accusation. Wishy washy post, soft defends Milton, before saying people should not defend other people and speak for themselves Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 01:48 Mordanis wrote:
There's one thing I have to say: We have about 8 hours till the deadline, and we have 4 votes in for players besides Milton. I'm not entirely confident in our ability to switch to a new player in this time. And if a few people try, and mufaa doesn't vote, we'll have a really hard time getting to lynch anybody at all. Just to make sure there is no confusion, I'm fine with a lynch for Milton, but I'm afraid we won't be able to lynch anyone if a few people go all out to try to lynch him. Especially this post rang alarm bells for me. Saying he's happy to lynch Milton, but trying to find any bad reason not to do so.
I admit that these would have been very scummy if Milton had been lynched, but I didn't think I could have won anyways in a 6 vs. 1. I was very close to PMing VE that I would concede if Milton was lynched. They were a last ditch effort to take some attention away from the case on Milton.
|
slOosh's attempt at post game analysis
Encouraged to do so by Golden, here are my thoughts of Newbie Mini XIV. I only started playing several months ago, so I'm not that much ahead of you guys in terms of experience, so take what I say with a grain of salt, or better yet ask questions so we can discuss and hopefully the more experienced players can chime in their opinions. [Warning: I write this analysis pretty much free thought style so popping up the thread along side might be helpful. Or confusing :p]
Pregame Thoughts
From the pre-game deadline discussion, its evident that most of the players are pretty excited to play, and most of them are new at the game (or at least playing on a forum). Additionally, the setup is 9 players, with 7 town 2 scum. No doubt that scum will play to keep both alive if possible and only bus (a term somewhat referring to sacrificing a teammate as crisis management) when really pushed to, and aside from that try to disguise their relationship within the thread. So the general heuristics I'm applying in this game are
- This is a newbie game. I'm making more leeway in terms of logic and sense due to the lack of experience, but people still tend to make sense within their personal logic. That is, even though a townie may be illogical, they are consistent in their "logic". Therefore I'm more inclined to look at contradictions and inconsistencies.
- People are excited to play. Any hesitations / quietness / inactivity I would lean as a blue role or scum (who both want to lay low).
- Direction of thread. Knowing that 2 scum are tied, if one comes under fire it is likely that scum team deal with it either by defending or deflecting / distracting by bringing up something else.
These are heueristics that help find scum, not hard rules (which is where I made the mistake of thinking that Shiaopi was scum on the third point of deflecting discussion from Miltonkram. but more on that later).
D1
The first post that caught my eye was by Miltonkram:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14788010
He points out people who haven't posted yet doesn't contribute anything himself. Somewhat a contradiction, so he is on my to-watch list.
His next post hits a red flag for me - he calls sciberbia's post scummy, yet doesn't seem to consider sciberbia himself as scummy - just the post. Townies are looking for scum by looking for scummy posts, but Milton says 'that's scummy (but you are town) so stop it'.
Something else that garnered my attention was ShiaoPi's attention to Mufaa (the lurker). In hindsight it is understandable that he would be concerned as in his previous game town was destroyed by lurkers. It is a legitamate concern. However, while it is good to keep them in mind, because its only 1 player I found that Mufaa served as an unnecessary distraction to town. 8 players (thus at least 1 scum) were actively posting, and thus it would probably have been better to leave him alone till D2 to see if he would get replaced. I noticed several times the discussion was going great and people got sidetracked by Mufaa. Again - lurkers (especially the not posting anything kind) are good to keep in mind but bad to focus upon.
I really liked the general thread atmosphere early D1. People were active and consolidating their thoughts into compact posts, which eases reading and allows more information transfer which is great for town. Which brings me to Mordanis' post which I missed my first read because I thought it was ShiaoPi was 2nd scum by association, which just goes to show finding mafia by association is dangerous and better used when people actually flip mafia. Anyways, here is the post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14794411
"regressed to a community of trust", "cultivate a healthy distrust", "we are now too trusting". Maybe this is hindsight talking, but this isn't really a town concern, but a scum one. First, people aren't totally trusting each other, it is clear that people are legitamately seeking scum and suspecting each other. People are being polite and mannered sure, but that is great for keeping the thread organized and clear. I think this is a put-on-watch-list post.
As for spoilers, I don't recommend using them except for maybe hiding huge quotes that you are responding to. In the very least your analysis shouldn't be spoilered, because you want people to read it. Presentation is very important as it is allows your thoughts to be properly known to others. It's ideal if people open each spoiler and indiscriminately devote time to understanding each post but people are lazy / busy / distracted, and likely to scroll over spoilers. And if you feel like your post is cluttered and bulky without use of spoilers, that is probably an indication that there is excess material that needs not be there - try to slim it down to the thoughts / ideas you really want conveyed, and it will probably do the trick.
As D1 comes to a close, it is good that people are starting to consolidate posts. It is not good however, that Miltonkram was freed from the accountability of voting because people told where to vote, and didn't find it weird when he said something like 'I don't like it but I'll do it because you told me to' which shifts all blame on any mislynches onto townies. Not good. Should be a red flag - you vote for people you think is scum and convince people.
N1
hegeo flips town doctor. Unfortunate but not a game-ender. Blues are nice to have but should not be crutches. Not that behind. Now people take hegeo's post as the next string to follow, which I think is a mistake because while it is true that his analysis was written with good intentions, it doesn't mean its infallible. (Hegeo I think you jumped the gun, as did I, by trying to find both scum at once. It's hard to predict how they will choose to interact with each other, and better left to finding one at a time.) Rather, I think people should have reread D1 to see how he ended up getting mislynched. Who first called him scummy? When, how and why did the voteswitch from Miltonkram to Hegeo happen? These questions would have pointed to Mordanis and s0lstice.
A good post by Release: "Think for yourselves. I can't stress how important this is."
Doing this makes it harder for scum because its easy to blend in my merely agreeing with someone else rather than producing your own stance.
People are kinda quiet at night which I don't like. This is somewhat a disputable point, but I'm of the group which thinks talking at night is really good. It lets you make more sense of the mislynch and keeps the pressure on scum. Staying mum doesn't really make sense to me.
D2
sciberbia died. Should go back and reread what he said. Scum are either shooting people who are on the right track or people who look blue. The town doc died so its probably people on the right track. Now when I say right track I mean you should look at their general posting and thoughts as a whole rather than the the last one they posted, as scum can shoot people with wrong thoughts and have people follow that.
We see Miltonkram pushing this nonsense idea of one of Release and Mordanis must be scum, which is a really easy way to seem like you are contributing without actually doing so. The whole time he entertains the idea that only one can be scum and pushes that idea and puts Release on the back foot. Now I'm confused why people aren't suspecting Miltonkram anymore - I'm guessing this pretense of activity and contribution may have played a part.
N2~endgame
I feel like I'm just hindsighting this part of the thread since I didn't read it until the game ended so I won't comment on the actual posts, but just throw out a couple of thoughts / pointers.
Make your intentions clear: if you are accusing someone, stick a nice fat bolded vote on the bottom (or FOS if you are more reserved like that).
At this point Miltonkram is acting really bogus - he spends all day talking about how sure he is about one of Release or Mordanis being scum, concludes Mordanis is scum but is happy to drop all that and go suspecting Golden. Activity =/= Contribution. Miltonkram is very active D2, yet he still hasn't contributed anything to scum hunting, especially as he just drops his Mordanis case and picks up someone else's case on Golden.
Golden got lynched. Re-read. Who is pushing for it, who is supporting it, who isn't dying because of it? Mislynches happen. But they do hold information. Just gotta go back and reread. This would point to s0lstice and Miltonkram.
Again, stop spoilering stuff, makes it harder to read or skim (should people be doing rereads after mislynches). I think post organization is a really important skill).
s0lstice has died. It is LYLO. Through re-reads, three names popped up which are Mordanis, Miltonkram and s0lstice, the last of whom have died. This is a good list to look at. (I may be blind with hindsight at this point, other observers please chime in).
Release: "We really don't need to be talking about Mufaa/Skware right now. There are still two scum left and one of them is guaranteed to be outside of Skware, if not both. So we need to go finding cases on the active four. The lurker can wait another day." Good post.
Unfortunately the game has a messy end due to the lurker.
Wrap Up (or TL;DR)
- Great town atmosphere. Keep it civil, keep it clean.
- Same with posts. Keep it consolidated, keep it unspoilered, and be clear with accusations when you make them (bold line at bottom).
- Reread the mislynches. Who, how, why are all good questions.
- Find scum 1 by 1. Keep connections in mind but don't employ them until one scum actually flips.
|
Thanks for your analysis, slOosh!
I pretty much agree with all you write, and I've learned a lot. Even though I have to do real life stuff at the moment, I'm thrilled to get back in game during summer.
|
Mordanis you didn't even mention me or respond to me after my response and I correctly pointed out your scum buddy
|
I'm sorry! You were a great help Echelon, and you're a baller at analyzing scum play! Here, 3 cheers for Echelon!
If anyone ever asks me who the best teacher is for mafia, I'll have a clear answer. Well, actually I'd probably say Al Pacino, but after him, Echelon is the man!
|
:D
Sloosh, ur observations on the game in general I agree with and I noticed milton was scum for similar reasons as you. Mordanis, since I was semi coaching him I already knew his alignment so I can't quite judge him, but he played a solid game. You mentioned that based off of agenda pushing Mordanis is shown to be scum, but by the time that is clear, his agendas will have already been complete. That's what scum is all about; not necessarily about just avoiding the lynch, but skirting the edge of disaster while pushing your plans. It's also more fun that way
@mordanis I was in a similar situation to you in my first few games; I rolled scum and played really hard, but felt the wins were cheap when they came in part from lurkers ending the game. Though it sucks when that happens, just be assured in your play and eventually when you're confronted with a strong town, your experience will pay off.
|
sloosh, i see your analysis clearly makes milton a scum. However, as was pointed out in the game, he played so badly(weell from his pov) that i (nor others) could possibly believe that he was scum. If you took that into account, would you still believe he is scum?
|
thank you for the analysis post sloosh, i enjoyed the read
|
On June 03 2012 11:54 Release wrote:
sloosh, i see your analysis clearly makes milton a scum. However, as was pointed out in the game, he played so badly(weell from his pov) that i (nor others) could possibly believe that he was scum. If you took that into account, would you still believe he is scum?
I'm not sure what you mean by the term 'badly'. Your statement in game holds very true - towns make mistakes all the time. I mean I've strongarmed plenty of town mislynches as town, because I thought person X played like scum and therefore I wanted to lynch him. Making mistakes isn't a hard alignment tell. Thus if by 'badly' you mean playing with poor performance, then I would still think Miltonkram is scum; my scum flags for him isn't because he is necessarily wrong with his reads, but that the way he gathers his reads, the way he presents his reads and the way he responds to other people's reads looked somewhat scummy.
If by 'badly' you mean, he is playing so much like an obvious scum that he can't possibly be scum, you lynch him. You assume all players are of a certain proficiency that if they were scum then they would be more discrete / wouldn't be caught so easily / so blatant in mistakes etc. Yet this is all WIFOM - scum need only act in order to avoid the lynches and if that means playing really "poorly" then that did the job and they are playing scum "well".
Something to mention here is the skill of making the distinction between inexperienced players and scummy players. Because inexperienced players will use "sub-optimal" strategies / logic / whatever, some people find it suspicious such as when you found sciberbia's question of to lynch or not as suspicious (when it was a neutral newbie tell). But that is distinguishing by asking the question "Could a newbie town player make this mistake?" rather than "Would a scum player be so obvious?"
Can some other experienced players chime in here? I don't want to inadvertently feed weird advice to the next generation of mafia players
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://distractible.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/the-gallows.jpg)
