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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 63

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Malli
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany138 Posts
September 14 2011 20:08 GMT
#1241
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 15 2011 03:55 J_J777 wrote:
I'm not signed up but 9. Qa4 is the most forceful move. Bxc6 doesn't win the pawn because after 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4 Bxd2+ 11. Bxd2 and black can just defend the pawn and use it to break white's center. 9. 0-0 is also very passive so I think 9. Qa4 is best



11. Nxd2 leads to better play for us, because black loses his active Knight, which makes the pawn defence not so rewarding i think.
gg no re
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
September 14 2011 20:14 GMT
#1242
en passant (exd5)

+ Show Spoiler +
Getting the d pawn out removes protection for the Knight on e4.

After exd5, he will most likely go Qxd6. Pawn is inferior imo, as Qxd6 gives him solid control of the center and can back up his Bishop should we harass with our Queen.

After Qxd6, I suggest 0-0. This forces him to move his Knight on e4 away or else its going to die. The only things he can do are Nf6 or Nxd2, both giving us a slight favor imo.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 03:55:28
September 14 2011 20:15 GMT
#1243
edit: Cloud 9157 posted as I was writing this: he agrees with me about Black's best move, but likes our chances in that position. I edited this post with my reply.
On September 15 2011 05:02 Mash2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 04:59 indigoawareness wrote:
Still thinking.

Can someone tell me why we aren't even talking about the en passant move?


I think we are trying to get double pawns on that file, if we en passant, that gives him the opportunity to + Show Spoiler +
move that C file pawn over. So not only would it ruin our plan for double pawns, but it would also eliminate one of our central pawns without accomplishing any real goal.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or missing something guys.
The main reason we aren't talking about it is simply because the move doesn't have an advocate (Bill Murray mentioned he liked it, but he hasn't posted recently.) I spent a long time looking at it. I don't think that your move works, Mash2: + Show Spoiler +
9. PxP e.p. PxP 10. d5 looks really bad for Black.
However, Black has a lot of possible responses to that move that need to be considered. The one that clinched it for me was + Show Spoiler +
9...QxP. This centralizes Black's Queen, eliminates our ability to double Black's pawns with Bxc6, and makes Queenside castling an attractive possibility for Black. Meanwhile, we've lost our strong e5 pawn and isolated our d-pawn. After spending a long time looking at this line, I didn't like the look of it.

Cloud 9157 suggests after 9. PxP e.p. QxP, 10. 0-0 that Black must then play 10 ...Nf6 or 10...Nxd2, and he estimates that this leaves us with the advantage. Those aren't the only moves Black can play, but anyway: suppose that Black takes the simplest route and trades off both his Bishop and Knight; then castles. We're left with a situation of rough equality, where we have the isolated Queen pawn. If we have an advantage here, it's a slim one at best. I'd rather cash in our pawn structure advantage with Bxc6 or at least keep that option open.

Also, I think that a slightly better move for Black than 10...Nxd2 may be 10...Bxd2 11. Bxd2 (else we drop the d-pawn), which takes the pressure off the e4 Knight for a little longer.
I don't think that this move loses for us, but I think it's far from our best.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
indigoawareness
Profile Joined October 2010
Slovakia273 Posts
September 14 2011 20:26 GMT
#1244
Fair point. That doubled pawn might not be such a huge weakness when he pushes it to c5 and starts to undermine our center. This is what I've been vaguely expecting since we went cxd4.

More info coming soon. I've been exploring lines where he doesn't go bxc6 so far nothing worth mentioning. lol :D
To sleep, perchance to dream.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 20:51:01
September 14 2011 20:35 GMT
#1245
On September 15 2011 05:26 indigoawareness wrote:
Fair point. That doubled pawn might not be such a huge weakness when he pushes it to c5 and starts to undermine our center. This is what I've been vaguely expecting since we went cxd4.
That's a good move in principle, but "might" and "vaguely expecting" are one thing and practical lines are another. If we play Bxc6 + Show Spoiler [continued] +
on this move (and most likely even on the next, although I'm less sure about that) Black doesn't actually have the time to set up a c5 push. A key move here is Qa4, which forks the c6 pawn and the b4 Bishop. That forces Black to exchange off his Bishop (unless he wants to sac the pawn). Also, the pin on the c5 pawn if we play 9. Bxc6 gives us an additional move to strengthen our control over c5 (e.g. with Rc1), and in short, Black will never get the chance to play it.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
September 14 2011 20:43 GMT
#1246
I'm starting to look at Qc2 a bit.

+ Show Spoiler +
For one, it hits c6 again, forcing him to defend the knight or we win 2 pawns (bf5 loses to Bxc6, pxc6, Qxc6+, Bd7, Qxd5.

In addition, it adds another attacker to the knight on e4. Problem is that Bishop though. If we play Qc2, I recommend 0-0 next turn, allowing us to move the knight, or at least force his knight away from us/trade knights+bishops.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 20:58 GMT
#1247
Votes

9. Bxc6+: 9 (itsjustatank, jdseemoreglass, Ikari, mastergriggy, qrs, Shackes, Malli, Malinor, Mash2)
9. 0-0: 5 (chesshaha, qrs, Blazinghand, DibujEx, Raysalis, Misder)
9. Qa4: 1-2 (dtvu, J_J777?)
9. a3: 1 (Seldentar)
9. exd e.p.: 1 (Cloud9157)
[image loading]
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
indigoawareness
Profile Joined October 2010
Slovakia273 Posts
September 14 2011 21:18 GMT
#1248
9. Bxc6+
To sleep, perchance to dream.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
September 14 2011 21:20 GMT
#1249
On September 15 2011 04:59 indigoawareness wrote:
Still thinking.

Can someone tell me why we aren't even talking about the en passant move?


I did a little bit of analysis of en passant, and I didn't like the look of it. Some have said they think we are still good in the position, so it's a difference of opinion right now. You can take a look at the line here, and I'm also going to post the rest of my analysis for anyone that didn't catch it. Feel free to let me know if you guys see any problems or alternatives you want to look at with these lines.


On September 12 2011 11:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Regarding our next moves:

+ Show Spoiler +
In this position, I think one of our strengths is our half-open c-file in combination with our bishop's tension on the knight. Ng5 will likely play d5 at some point, and from that point on we will be able to capture the knight at any time, doubling black's c-pawns and granting us a weakness to attack. We can do this by placing our queen on c2, and our rook on c1, for example.

[image loading]

Our immediate goals should be to castle and to keep our bishop on the a4-e8 diagonal.

If black plays 8. ... O-O, we should castle as well, 9. O-O, protecting our king and removing the pin on our knight.

If black plays 8. ... a6, we should simply retreat the bishop to a4, 9. Ba4. The move Bd3 also looks good, but I don't think it is as strong. Bd3 is also more committing, because we won't be able to maneuver back to the a4-e8 diagonal, while if we play the Ba4 retreat, we can play Bc2 at any time to reach the same diagonal as Bd3.

If black plays 8. ... d5, I think we should immediately take our chance to weaken his pawn structure by capturing the knight. If we castle first, he may be able to unpin his knight with Bd7, making our bishop placement almost irrelevant.

If black plays d5 at some point, I'm not a fan of playing en passant here... It leaves us with an isolated queen's pawn and very little compensation or room for attack in exchange for it. For example, if the game were to continue:

8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O d5 10. exd6ep, here black can recapture the pawn with his bishop, by first exchanging knights. 10. ... Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Bxd6, and it's difficult to make progress.

[image loading]

As I stated above, I think a good general plan would be to double his c-pawns, isolate his a-pawn, and then focus on those weaknesses in queen-side play, utilizing our half-open c-file. However, I think we need to control the c5 square before we can execute this plan, because we don't want black playing c5 and undermining our pawn center. We will have to drive away the bishop at some point with a3 and reevaluate from there depending on his response.




On September 14 2011 12:29 jdseemoreglass wrote:
[image loading]

My analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +

9. O-O is certainly a solid move. The question here is, do we have better? I think we might....


9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4. I didn't see this move in my last analysis, but it looks strong. Here we are forking the c6 pawn, and the bishop at b4. Let's look at black's options...

[image loading]

10. ...Rb8 defending the bishop. (10. ... a5 would lose the rook or the d-pawn after Qxc6+.) Here, we have the option of taking a free pawn. 11. Qxc6+. Black can't interpose the bishop, because he would then lose his d-pawn. So 11. ... Qd7 12. Qxd7 Bxd7 13. a3, and we are safely up a pawn with queens off the board.

[image loading]

-OR-

10. ... Bxd2. Here we retake with the knight in order to attack the black knight on e4. Black shouldn't allow us to capture his knight next move, and he doesn't have a good escape square. 11. Nxd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2, and here, there isn't much black can do to prevent us from dominating the dark squares, and making his doubled c-pawns a liability. For example, placing the queen on c2 or the bishop of the a3-f8 diagonal, and his doubled pawns will be stuck in place, and his a-pawn is weak and isolated.

[image loading]


I'm casting my vote for 9. Bxc6+.


On September 14 2011 14:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 14:06 qrs wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote:
9. Bxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo.

Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade.
At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +
After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+
That's my question for everybody voting for 9. Bxc6: what do you see that makes you think it has to be this move? Unless Black plays + Show Spoiler +
9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7)
we retain the ability to play this move later on. If Black does play that move, we can respond with + Show Spoiler +
10. NxN
and I think we have the advantage. So why force things before we have to?


The tactics are not the same if we castle first:
+ Show Spoiler +
Allowing black to castle significantly changes the tactics involved.

1) After Qa4, the c-pawn is no longer pinned. Black can play c5, defending his bishop, removing his pawn from attack, and undermining our pawn center. We can perhaps still win a pawn here after dxc5, but the position does not seem as favorable as playing Bxc6+ first.

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 c5

[image loading]


2) Because we won't be capturing the c-pawn with check, black now doesn't have to exchange queens. He can play for example:

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 Rb8 12. Qxc6 Rb6 13. Qc2 Bf5

[image loading]


3) Part of the strength of the Bxd2 line above is that we can threaten to occupy the a3- f8 diagonal, preventing black from castling. Black's c-pawn is hanging and he can't meet both threats at the same time:

[image loading]


Perhaps there are alternate moves for either side that are better. In either case, the position is less clear and less forcing, and seems to offer black better chances imo.

"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
wizard944
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
194 Posts
September 14 2011 21:35 GMT
#1250
9. 0-0
Kassar DeTemplari
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
September 14 2011 22:20 GMT
#1251
9. a3
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 15 2011 02:12 GMT
#1252
[image loading]

[image loading]
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 15 2011 02:12 GMT
#1253
On September 15 2011 06:20 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 04:59 indigoawareness wrote:
Still thinking.

Can someone tell me why we aren't even talking about the en passant move?


I did a little bit of analysis of en passant, and I didn't like the look of it. Some have said they think we are still good in the position, so it's a difference of opinion right now. You can take a look at the line here...

Show nested quote +
On September 12 2011 11:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Regarding our next moves:

+ Show Spoiler +
...If black plays d5 at some point, I'm not a fan of playing en passant here... It leaves us with an isolated queen's pawn and very little compensation or room for attack in exchange for it. For example, if the game were to continue:

8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O d5 10. exd6ep, here black can recapture the pawn with his bishop, by first exchanging knights. 10. ... Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Bxd6, and it's difficult to make progress.

[image loading]...


...
That line's not so relevant here, though, is it? You posted it for 9. ...d5, after both sides had castled. I don't think your line works in this situation because of the threat of + Show Spoiler +
d5, attacking the Knight which is pinned to the King.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Sm3agol
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2055 Posts
September 15 2011 02:24 GMT
#1254
0-0

I always take a good chance to castle...you never know if you'll get to later.
aphorism
Profile Joined February 2011
United States226 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 02:45:56
September 15 2011 02:45 GMT
#1255
Bxc6+

As fun as it would be to do an en passant capture, this seems like the better move.
BaronFel
Profile Joined July 2009
United States155 Posts
September 15 2011 03:48 GMT
#1256
9. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
I think it should be safe to do this. Middle is getting a bit messy.
Archers_bane
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1338 Posts
September 15 2011 05:03 GMT
#1257
Bxc6

+ Show Spoiler +
Doubling up his pawns and removes the strong knight from the middle. I think we can delay to castle for a bit longer
Starcraft's BW glory days have passed, RIP Jaedong's dominance - 2013...EDIT 2017: WE BACK BOYS
EnderSword
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada669 Posts
September 15 2011 05:06 GMT
#1258
9. 0-0

No threat here, and anything else really compelling is just a piece trade,
Castling unpins the Knight and lets us develop more, I anticipate he may just Castle behind us as well. Just do it for safety and mobility now.
Bronze/Silver/Gold level Guides - www.youtube.com/user/EnderSword
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 15 2011 06:00 GMT
#1259
0-0
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
September 15 2011 08:41 GMT
#1260
9. 0-0
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