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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 62

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qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 15:42 GMT
#1221
On September 14 2011 15:10 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 14:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On September 14 2011 14:06 qrs wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote:
9. Bxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo.

Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade.
At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +
After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+
That's my question for everybody voting for 9. Bxc6: what do you see that makes you think it has to be this move? Unless Black plays + Show Spoiler +
9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7)
we retain the ability to play this move later on. If Black does play that move, we can respond with + Show Spoiler +
10. NxN
and I think we have the advantage. So why force things before we have to?


The tactics are not the same if we castle first:
+ Show Spoiler +
Allowing black to castle significantly changes the tactics involved.

1) After Qa4, the c-pawn is no longer pinned. Black can play c5, defending his bishop, removing his pawn from attack, and undermining our pawn center. We can perhaps still win a pawn here after dxc5, but the position does not seem as favorable as playing Bxc6+ first.

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 c5

[image loading]


2) Because we won't be capturing the c-pawn with check, black now doesn't have to exchange queens. He can play for example:

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 Rb8 12. Qxc6 Rb6 13. Qc2 Bf5

[image loading]


3) Part of the strength of the Bxd2 line above is that we can threaten to occupy the a3- f8 diagonal, preventing black from castling. Black's c-pawn is hanging and he can't meet both threats at the same time:

[image loading]


Perhaps there are alternate moves for either side that are better. In either case, the position is less clear and less forcing, and seems to offer black better chances imo.
You make some good points. I'm going to reconsider my vote. For now, changing to abstain.
OK, looked a bit more; still not convinced. All of your alternatives for Black in this line seem to involve + Show Spoiler +
sacrificing a pawn.
On the other hand, even if we don't mind going into those lines, after 9. 0-0, with your 9th move for Black, I haven't found anything better than + Show Spoiler +
9...0-0 10. Bxc6 and more or less the 9. Bxc6 lines by transposition (if Black wants to keep all his material).
Still abstaining.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
DibujEx
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Chile130 Posts
September 14 2011 16:30 GMT
#1222
9. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
Is never to late to do it.. except.. when is too late, now is the opportunity
;D!
Raysalis
Profile Joined July 2010
Malaysia1034 Posts
September 14 2011 16:36 GMT
#1223
9. 0-0
:)
Misder
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1557 Posts
September 14 2011 16:45 GMT
#1224
9. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
I can't see us waiting on this move. The pin needs to go away as fast as possible so we can develop better. After 9. Bxc6, double pawns isn't as weak as it seems with ...c5, potentially undermining our center, and open b-file for black's rook.
Whaaaa?
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 16:52 GMT
#1225
OK, voting 9. Bxc6+
+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +
Assuming that we want to go ahead with our plan of doubling Black's c-pawns and trying to focus on that weakness, this is a move we'll have to play at some point. I spent a long time looking at alternatives, but they all seemed to boil down to the same basic ideas of Bxc6 (to double Black's pawns) and Qa4 (to pressure Black and to prevent ...Ba6). Voting for 9. Bxc6 over 9. 0-0 because it looks like in this line we can make it hard for Black to castle.

The one place I disagree with jdseemoreglass's line is after 9. BxN+ PxB 10. Qa4 BxN, jd wants to play 11. NxN, to exchange off Black's strong Knight at e4. I'd rather play 11. BxN, even at the cost of leaving Black's Knight where it is, because if we simplify down to an endgame where the only minor pieces are opposite-colored Bishops, I'm afraid that we won't be able to get more than a draw, as Boozerr said.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 17:04 GMT
#1226
Votes

9. Bxc6+: 5 (itsjustatank, jdseemoreglass, Ikari, mastergriggy, qrs)
9. 0-0: 5 (chesshaha, qrs, Blazinghand, DibujEx, Raysalis, Misder)
9. Qa4: 1 (dtvu)
[image loading]
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Seldentar
Profile Joined May 2011
United States888 Posts
September 14 2011 17:09 GMT
#1227
My vote goes to 9. a2-a3

mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 14 2011 17:30 GMT
#1228
On September 15 2011 01:45 Misder wrote:
9. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
I can't see us waiting on this move. The pin needs to go away as fast as possible so we can develop better. After 9. Bxc6, double pawns isn't as weak as it seems with ...c5, potentially undermining our center, and open b-file for black's rook.


+ Show Spoiler +
The idea is that we keep the tempo by taking the Knight first. Black can't play c5 if we follow with Qa4.
Write your own song!
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
September 14 2011 17:38 GMT
#1229
On September 15 2011 01:52 qrs wrote:
OK, voting 9. Bxc6+
+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +
Assuming that we want to go ahead with our plan of doubling Black's c-pawns and trying to focus on that weakness, this is a move we'll have to play at some point. I spent a long time looking at alternatives, but they all seemed to boil down to the same basic ideas of Bxc6 (to double Black's pawns) and Qa4 (to pressure Black and to prevent ...Ba6). Voting for 9. Bxc6 over 9. 0-0 because it looks like in this line we can make it hard for Black to castle.

The one place I disagree with jdseemoreglass's line is after 9. BxN+ PxB 10. Qa4 BxN, jd wants to play 11. NxN, to exchange off Black's strong Knight at e4. I'd rather play 11. BxN, even at the cost of leaving Black's Knight where it is, because if we simplify down to an endgame where the only minor pieces are opposite-colored Bishops, I'm afraid that we won't be able to get more than a draw, as Boozerr said.


+ Show Spoiler +
I know you already considered 0-0, but look at it this way. 9. 0-0 0-0 10 Qa4
The position here is so much better for white. What does Bxc6+ accomplish besides double up the c file? We are barely out of early game yet, and we are thinking about a little advantage we could get in the end game. Which we might not even get to considering the positioning we are at right now.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 18:06 GMT
#1230
On September 15 2011 02:38 chesshaha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2011 01:52 qrs wrote:
OK, voting 9. Bxc6+
+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +
Assuming that we want to go ahead with our plan of doubling Black's c-pawns and trying to focus on that weakness, this is a move we'll have to play at some point. I spent a long time looking at alternatives, but they all seemed to boil down to the same basic ideas of Bxc6 (to double Black's pawns) and Qa4 (to pressure Black and to prevent ...Ba6). Voting for 9. Bxc6 over 9. 0-0 because it looks like in this line we can make it hard for Black to castle.

The one place I disagree with jdseemoreglass's line is after 9. BxN+ PxB 10. Qa4 BxN, jd wants to play 11. NxN, to exchange off Black's strong Knight at e4. I'd rather play 11. BxN, even at the cost of leaving Black's Knight where it is, because if we simplify down to an endgame where the only minor pieces are opposite-colored Bishops, I'm afraid that we won't be able to get more than a draw, as Boozerr said.


+ Show Spoiler +
I know you already considered 0-0, but look at it this way. 9. 0-0 0-0 10 Qa4
The position here is so much better for white. What does Bxc6+ accomplish besides double up the c file? We are barely out of early game yet, and we are thinking about a little advantage we could get in the end game. Which we might not even get to considering the positioning we are at right now.
What I'm worried about there is losing our chance to get that little advantage. After your line+ Show Spoiler +
it seems that Black can take all the pressure off him by exchanging off his Bb4 and/or Ne4 and then playing ...Bd7 to defend his Nc6.

For example, 9. 0-0 0-0 10 Qa4 BxN: if 11. BxB, 11...Bd7; if 11. Bxc6, 11...Bg5; if 11. NxB, 11...NxN. There are other ways it could go (e.g. 10... NxN instead of BxN) but they all seem to boil down to the same thing: Black takes the pressure off him, and he doesn't have to double his pawns.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25558 Posts
September 14 2011 18:07 GMT
#1231
My goodness! I think this is the first really really close vote in quite a while
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
shackes
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany148 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 18:23:58
September 14 2011 18:15 GMT
#1232
edit: after reading the other posts:

9. Bxc6+
Malli
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany138 Posts
September 14 2011 18:36 GMT
#1233
9. Bxc6

+ Show Spoiler +
I am convinced now. And it seems like black cant defend the double pawn after Qa4. But if we take it a queen exchange cant be avoided. So we have to think what will be our plan after that queen move

gg no re
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 18:46 GMT
#1234
On September 15 2011 03:36 Malli wrote:
9. Bxc6

+ Show Spoiler +
I am convinced now. And it seems like black cant defend the double pawn after Qa4. But if we take it a queen exchange cant be avoided. So we have to think what will be our plan after that queen move
Although I voted for this move too, I think you're exaggerating when you say + Show Spoiler [continued] +
It seems like black cant defend the double pawn after Qa4.
Black can defend it by playing 9...Bxd2+ (9... Nxd2 also works) and afterwards playing ...Bd7 to defend the pawn.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
J_J777
Profile Joined August 2007
United States22 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 19:01:24
September 14 2011 18:55 GMT
#1235
I'm not signed up but 9. Qa4 is the most forceful move. Bxc6 doesn't win the pawn because after 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4 Bxd2+ 11. Bxd2 and black can just defend the pawn and use it to break white's center. 9. 0-0 is also very passive so I think 9. Qa4 is best
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 19:00 GMT
#1236
On September 15 2011 03:55 J_J777 wrote:
I'm not signed up but + Show Spoiler +
9. Qa4 is the most forceful move and unless I am misanalyzing, it wins material. Bxc6 doesn't win the pawn because after 9.Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4 Bxd2+ 11. Bxd2 and black can just defend the pawn and use it to break white's center. 9. 0-0 is also very passive so
I think 9. Qa4 is best
You're the second person to make just about this exact post. See my reply to him.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4734 Posts
September 14 2011 19:40 GMT
#1237
9. Bxc6
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
September 14 2011 19:58 GMT
#1238
9. Bxc6
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
indigoawareness
Profile Joined October 2010
Slovakia273 Posts
September 14 2011 19:59 GMT
#1239
Still thinking.

Can someone tell me why we aren't even talking about the en passant move?
To sleep, perchance to dream.
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
September 14 2011 20:02 GMT
#1240
On September 15 2011 04:59 indigoawareness wrote:
Still thinking.

Can someone tell me why we aren't even talking about the en passant move?


I think we are trying to get double pawns on that file, if we en passant, that gives him the opportunity to move that C file pawn over. So not only would it ruin our plan for double pawns, but it would also eliminate one of our central pawns without accomplishing any real goal. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, or missing something guys.
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
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