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On September 11 2011 11:01 Babyfactory wrote:
There is so much dickwaving in this thread its amazing.
I hope in the next thread the use of engines are banned and its required to provide analysis based on your own insight not what GMs have played most or what the book line is. If you can't take the time to analyze the position and come up with a move because you're afraid of being wrong then you aren't contributing anything to the conversation.
This needs to be about the game and the development of the community.
Could not agree more about engines being banned , but they are supposed to be in this match as well . Key word SUPPOSED . The problem is there is no real way to police it, even if it is obvious. So unfortunately we are left with an honor system,. But alas, those that need them probably will not contribute too much anyway in the realm of actual understanding about the position ; as when they post the lines, their posts become contradistinctive to how little they apparently discern about the position , When conflating that to the lines they consistently present it becomes obvious whom is using them. But still that is just a feeling one may get and not concrete evidence (which is why NG5 said do not try to police it ).
Probably would be better if databases were not used as well at this point imo .
Nothing used but just pure heuristic logic and analyzing skillz .
I Began to feel this way about databases (although in the beginning I was for them) Now that I have experienced the mean use of them and the affect they have on people's ability to think about suggested moves objectively,
The way some have presented databases searches in response to a suggested move , you would think chess had been solved already .
Edit : Just a thought
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On September 11 2011 02:53 MrProphylactic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 00:26 Seldentar wrote:On September 10 2011 14:41 Ng5 wrote:
I have a while now so let me check out all the votes so far and the drama that unfolded.
Getting back at you soon, guys.
God I already felt it was the third day last night and it's only been two now, right?
Edit: I will fucking kill someone. Just get ready for blood. And I'm not even reading everything and not even half way through yet. LOLZ oh noe we've awakened da beast! We better get ready guys, cause I have a STRONG feeling Ng5 is going to unleash Fritz on us with 3k elo. Or he's going to beast mode. Either or... I sure hope he wont unleash Fritz (although I fear Rybka (well I guess it is a clone of fruit they say now) a great deal more, Fritz is beatable ) Because using programs is against the spirit and honor system of this event ???? Show nested quote +
Ng5 wrote
Edit: And that was my way of sarcasm. I don't even have the game saved anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Just like the rating of my opponent. It's like the cemetery... Deep below we are all the same.
Last edit: 2011-09-10 16:42:59
Dooh you got me!! That game I posted had absolutely nothing to do with the fact I find it very interesting as a Pirc.player ???. I can see why you think the game is taken seriously after I said it was just for fun in the description and neither of us were playing in a serious manner . Who would have thought you are a clairivoyant !!!!!!! It seems I have been focusing on self-improvement in the wrong manner all I have to do to learn about myself and my intentions is come to team liquid .Have you considered the marketability of your talents as a psychic??? You could probably make a killing at those carnival-guess-the-weight games . Alas I need to learn from you the method of posting any of my games or tactical puzzles from my games, while remaining devoid of ego . As when you do it that is most assuredly the case . If it wasn't for your Jesus-like altruism I would be detecting quite a few double-standards at this point well.. maybe I am being a tad sarcastic as well  Show nested quote +
edit:
Ng5 said ":Masters have told me before that I could coach them"
ng5 said "And that was my way of sarcasm. I don't even have the game saved anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Just like the rating of my opponent. It's like the cemetery... Deep below we are all the same.
I cannot help but see the irony when comparing the measure of those two statements Just a little more sarcasm Ah but everyone does have their own unique measuring stick for objectivity
I was just joking I'm sure he wouldn't unleash any chess engine ;P
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Deadline for move eighth is over now.
Doing the usual stuff will count, get back, reply, statistics, whatever...
Reminds me I still haven't installed Mathematica to give a good 3D plot for the move distribution.
Edit: Eight, obviously - not seventh.
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In the meantime.
Yes Kf1 was a strong move, but I analyzed it out almost two weeks ago. If you chose that I would have probably had to go down a line which is partially linear in the sense of two or two and half possible outcomes.
a, You give up all kind of advantage and get into either a completely equal midgame, or one that's slightly better for back.
b, You cling on to every little plus you might have had and find yourself right in the endgame, where the position is drawn with reasonable play, with a few possible tricks that could lead to white's downfall.
c, You press too much and after a few moves you realize that you suddenly don't have an attack big enough without the h1 rook and black can already think about sacrificing pawns left and right to open up the position.
All in all I'm happy it's probably not going to go that way, because I think the current line will be more interesting for everyone.
Kf1 itself is very strong for any usual reply from black - for a zillion of different reasons. d5 is not possible, and after the incoming Qc2 black's best option is playing f5 after which they can only pray they will have some kind of conterchance sometime along the line. That is with the replies I've found in games so far. But not only white's game can be improved.
But I'm extremely happy that someone found Kf1. A million props to MrProphylactic.
Edit: Name + It really was a great find and I had been preparing to praise it if anyone finds it for two weeks now.
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On September 11 2011 13:11 Ng5 wrote:
But I'm extremely happy that someone found Kf1. A million props to Boozerr. Just to give credit where it's due, the move was first suggested and analyzed by MrProphylactic, although Boozerr was the first to vote for it.
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MrProphylactic wrote:
If that's all you understood from it then I think the best is:
End of conversation.
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]On September 11 2011 13:11 Ng5 wrote
But I'm extremely happy that someone found Kf1. A million props to Boozerr
on september 11 qrs wrote Just to give credit where it's due, the move was first suggested and analyzed by MrProphylactic, although Boozerr was the first to vote for it
cough* cough* I was the first to suggest Kf1 . he was the first to vote for it based on the lines I provided. Not that it matters .( But I am curious if you would have praised the move had you known It was me that first suggested it??)
I suppose you wouldn't know that because all the suggested lines where in spoiler tags . So I could see why you would think that
which here is the first of many posts I made with analysis,( which by the end I nearly wrote a book on the move I feel I really understand it now ) mind you at this time I thought it was a novelty and had never been played before .
Edit : THNX Qrs for remembering and praising the correct person. At least he indirectly appreciates the work I have done here
]
Some interesting lines in the unconventional bb4 kf1, which now that I look at the complexities would have been another really cool novelty to spring on NG5. IT can be playable in structures like these when the a6 f1 diagonal is controlled as we do now . But I would probably turn blue in the face explaining why this is playable, based solely on aesthetic impression the move makes ( splitting the rooks , losing the castle etc . However it would combine with h4 ng5 ideas, and pushing the h pawn to h5 if possible , and lifting the rook to say rh4 or rh3 to rg3. Some really interesting positions arise from this, some of this I will provide below.
I never would have talked anybody into this though, no matter how much analysis I provided. Here are some interesting ideas to me at least . bb4 kf1? d5 qa4 winning . bb4 kf1 0-0 d5 winning. taking that into account bb4 kf1? qe7(probably best or ba5) qc2 f5 h4 0-0 qc4+ kh8 bg5 nxb hxg5 opening the h file with a nice attack .
Due to the semi-closed nature of the board The lines appear to keep the initiative for white, while avoiding any exchanges . For instance some other examples . Bb4 Kf1?! qe7 qc2 f5 (hard to find a better move than this for black here , if d5 bxc6 wins) h4 ba5 nc3 nb4 qe2 c6 bc4 d5 exd e.p. nxd qxq kxq bb3 and from here if black tries nd3 white ends up better after bg5 which is a long line in itself .
Big breath ... here we go .... nd3 bg5+ ke8 (kd7 leads to another strong position for white ) rd1 nxb2 re1+ ne4 nxn bxr nd6+ kd7 nf7 re8 nxbe1 b6 ne5 +kc7 and we lift our rook to h3 with a winning game.
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Votes
8. Nbd2: 27 (not counting 14GG's, since it wasn't clear) (qrs, hype[NZ], Picklesickle, itsjustatank, BaronFel, Jumbled, EvilNalu, TNT0677, Babyfactory, mcc, Malinor, Malli, chesshaha, Snarfs, mastergriggy, Sm3agol, enigmaticcam, Raysalis, MrProphylactic, Blazinghand, wuBu, imBLIND, Ikari, stormtemplar, popzags, 14GG?, aphorism, Misder, keyStorm)
8. Qd2: 1 (jdtrollmoreglass)
8. Kf1: 3 (Boozerr, MrProphylactic, wizard944)
8. Bd2: 1 (Fyrewolf)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IxltK.png)
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Everything is updated. I hope everyone is happy. Now off to my cave.
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MrProphylactic was just temp banned for 30 days by EvilTeletubby. That account was created on 2010-09-09 11:59:36 and had 273 posts. Reason: Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 02:53 MrProphylactic wrote:
Show nested quote +
I sure hope he wont unleash Fritz (although I fear Rybka (well I guess it is a clone of fruit they say now) a great deal more, Fritz is beatable ) Because using programs is against the spirit and honor system of this event ????
Show nested quote +
Dooh you got me!! That game I posted had absolutely nothing to do with the fact I find it very interesting as a Pirc.player ???.
I can see why you think the game is taken seriously after I said it was just for fun in the description and neither of us were playing in a serious manner . Who would have thought you are a clairivoyant !!!!!!! It seems I have been focusing on self-improvement in the wrong manner all I have to do to learn about myself and my intentions is come to team liquid .Have you considered the marketability of your talents as a psychic??? You could probably make a killing at those carnival-guess-the-weight games .
Alas I need to learn from you the method of posting any of my games or tactical puzzles from my games, while remaining devoid of ego .
As when you do it that is most assuredly the case .
If it wasn't for your Jesus-like altruism I would be detecting quite a few double-standards at this point
well.. maybe I am being a tad sarcastic as well
Show nested quote +
I cannot help but see the irony when comparing the measure of those two statements
Just a little more sarcasm Ah but everyone does have their own unique measuring stick for objectivity Quit being an asshole. Seeing as you've made it for an entire year without me noticing you (and yes, I remember you), you must have improved at least a little bit. I'm thinking there might be some hope for you - please don't prove me wrong.
Guess that problem is solved. 
Thank god... Hopefully things can get back to normal now.
BTW, I signed up for a free trial of ICC. It's certainly much better than fics, but also fairly expensive. So far I have a 5 0 rating over 1750, which is much better than I thought I would do If anyone wants to play some games my name is the same, "jdseemoreglass" on there, so look me up!
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MrProphylactic was just temp banned for 30 days by EvilTeletubby. That account was created on 2010-09-09 11:59:36 and had 273 posts. Reason: Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 02:53 MrProphylactic wrote:
Show nested quote +
I sure hope he wont unleash Fritz (although I fear Rybka (well I guess it is a clone of fruit they say now) a great deal more, Fritz is beatable ) Because using programs is against the spirit and honor system of this event ????
Show nested quote +
Dooh you got me!! That game I posted had absolutely nothing to do with the fact I find it very interesting as a Pirc.player ???.
I can see why you think the game is taken seriously after I said it was just for fun in the description and neither of us were playing in a serious manner . Who would have thought you are a clairivoyant !!!!!!! It seems I have been focusing on self-improvement in the wrong manner all I have to do to learn about myself and my intentions is come to team liquid .Have you considered the marketability of your talents as a psychic??? You could probably make a killing at those carnival-guess-the-weight games .
Alas I need to learn from you the method of posting any of my games or tactical puzzles from my games, while remaining devoid of ego .
As when you do it that is most assuredly the case .
If it wasn't for your Jesus-like altruism I would be detecting quite a few double-standards at this point
well.. maybe I am being a tad sarcastic as well
Show nested quote +
I cannot help but see the irony when comparing the measure of those two statements
Just a little more sarcasm Ah but everyone does have their own unique measuring stick for objectivity Quit being an asshole. Seeing as you've made it for an entire year without me noticing you (and yes, I remember you), you must have improved at least a little bit. I'm thinking there might be some hope for you - please don't prove me wrong.
Finally something was done. Thank you TL Mods, I appreciate this very much for the sake of this community game.
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Regarding our next moves:
+ Show Spoiler +In this position, I think one of our strengths is our half-open c-file in combination with our bishop's tension on the knight. Ng5 will likely play d5 at some point, and from that point on we will be able to capture the knight at any time, doubling black's c-pawns and granting us a weakness to attack. We can do this by placing our queen on c2, and our rook on c1, for example. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YHnov.png) Our immediate goals should be to castle and to keep our bishop on the a4-e8 diagonal. If black plays 8. ... O-O, we should castle as well, 9. O-O, protecting our king and removing the pin on our knight. If black plays 8. ... a6, we should simply retreat the bishop to a4, 9. Ba4. The move Bd3 also looks good, but I don't think it is as strong. Bd3 is also more committing, because we won't be able to maneuver back to the a4-e8 diagonal, while if we play the Ba4 retreat, we can play Bc2 at any time to reach the same diagonal as Bd3. If black plays 8. ... d5, I think we should immediately take our chance to weaken his pawn structure by capturing the knight. If we castle first, he may be able to unpin his knight with Bd7, making our bishop placement almost irrelevant. If black plays d5 at some point, I'm not a fan of playing en passant here... It leaves us with an isolated queen's pawn and very little compensation or room for attack in exchange for it. For example, if the game were to continue: 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O d5 10. exd6ep, here black can recapture the pawn with his bishop, by first exchanging knights. 10. ... Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Bxd6, and it's difficult to make progress. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kYfna.png) As I stated above, I think a good general plan would be to double his c-pawns, isolate his a-pawn, and then focus on those weaknesses in queen-side play, utilizing our half-open c-file. However, I think we need to control the c5 square before we can execute this plan, because we don't want black playing c5 and undermining our pawn center. We will have to drive away the bishop at some point with a3 and reevaluate from there depending on his response.
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On September 12 2011 11:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:Regarding our next moves: + Show Spoiler +In this position, I think one of our strengths is our half-open c-file in combination with our bishop's tension on the knight. Ng5 will likely play d5 at some point, and from that point on we will be able to capture the knight at any time, doubling black's c-pawns and granting us a weakness to attack. We can do this by placing our queen on c2, and our rook on c1, for example. Our immediate goals should be to castle and to keep our bishop on the a4-e8 diagonal. If black plays 8. ... O-O, we should castle as well, 9. O-O, protecting our king and removing the pin on our knight. If black plays 8. ... a6, we should simply retreat the bishop to a4, 9. Ba4. The move Bd3 also looks good, but I don't think it is as strong. Bd3 is also more committing, because we won't be able to maneuver back to the a4-e8 diagonal, while if we play the Ba4 retreat, we can play Bc2 at any time to reach the same diagonal as Bd3. If black plays 8. ... d5, I think we should immediately take our chance to weaken his pawn structure by capturing the knight. If we castle first, he may be able to unpin his knight with Bd7, making our bishop placement almost irrelevant. If black plays d5 at some point, I'm not a fan of playing en passant here... It leaves us with an isolated queen's pawn and very little compensation or room for attack in exchange for it. For example, if the game were to continue: 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O d5 10. exd6ep, here black can recapture the pawn with his bishop, by first exchanging knights. 10. ... Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Bxd6, and it's difficult to make progress. As I stated above, I think a good general plan would be to double his c-pawns, isolate his a-pawn, and then focus on those weaknesses in queen-side play, utilizing our half-open c-file. However, I think we need to control the c5 square before we can execute this plan, because we don't want black playing c5 and undermining our pawn center. We will have to drive away the bishop at some point with a3 and reevaluate from there depending on his response. Nice post as usual, jd. I agree with most of your thoughts and analysis. A few points, though:
- You counsel against + Show Spoiler +
playing PxP e.p. if Black plays ...d5 8. Nbd2 O-O 9. O-O d5 10. exd6ep Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Bxd6 12. BxN PxB
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9oMBS.png)
White to play a good general plan would be to double his c-pawns, isolate his a-pawn, and then focus on those weaknesses in queen-side play, utilizing our half-open c-file. In this version, Black's pawn weaknesses seem even more glaring, as his c-pawns are not only doubled but isolated. We could follow up, for instance, with 13. Rc1, attacking the c6 pawn and maintaining control of c5.
- As a general point: if we make the above our plan, we should should be sure to + Show Spoiler +
keep at least one Knight alive, as opposed to exchanging it for Black's dark-squared Bishop, should that opportunity arise, or allowing Black to do so. Otherwise, with no minor pieces that can attack c6, and with Black having a Bishop that can defend it, it's hard to see how we can win that pawn.
- You say that + Show Spoiler +
If black plays 8. ... d5, I think we should immediately take our chance to weaken his pawn structure by capturing the knight. If we castle first, he may be able to unpin his knight with Bd7, making our bishop placement almost irrelevant. 8. ... d5 9. 0-0 Bd7 (if Black plays some other 9th move, then at the very least, we have not lost the pin on his Knight by castling first) 10. NxN PxN 11. Ng5!, threatening his e4 pawn, which he cannot defend very easily. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J2TBv.png) Black to playThere are a number of tactics in this line, including for Black ...NxP (either version), and for White Qb3 or Qa4, but at the end of the day, I think that we come out on top. Black's exposed King is a dangerous weakness.
Of course, Black can play a safer 9th move, in which case this line may transpose with the one you recommend. I don't think we should worry about this line, though--to the contrary.
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I, for one, would be voting for + Show Spoiler +an en-passant in that line
Could you explain why you think that would leave us in a bad position? I feel like we are more developed even in the line you are worried about, jd
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+ Show Spoiler +I didn't look at any specific tactics or lines in the en passant variation. It just immediately looked bad to me after trading bishop for knight, because the board is completely wide open and black will have the coordinated bishop pair, as well as open files for his rooks. Our knight will be almost helpless in this position. Also, while it's true that we are indeed weakening black's pawn structure, note that we are doing so with a weakening of our own, the isolated queen pawn. Also, black's bishop has retreated and can defend the c5 square, meaning he can play c5. This will force us to trade off his doubled c-pawn, or to further advance and weaken our d-pawn. If I were black, I wouldn't even worry about losing a pawn here. I would focus on rapid development of my pieces to dominate the open board, while making threats at the white king. In other words, I think this position gives the initiative to black, while if we keep our pawn center intact and focus on queen-side play, we can keep the pressure on black. That's just my opinion anyway, and you are free to disagree Edit: To look at qrs's line. If we play 13. Rc1, what do we do against Bg4? Black has our knight pinned, and it doesn't seem easy to avoid it. If we play Qb3, Rb8 develops another piece with tempo, or Be6 centralizes the bishop while attacking the queen with tempo, and also skewering a pawn. Also, instead of Bg4, black could play Qf6, defending the pawn indirectly with the Bxh2+ tactic. It's difficult to keep an initiative here.
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On September 14 2011 06:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:Edit: To look at qrs's line. + Show Spoiler +If we play 13. Rc1, what do we do against Bg4? Black has our knight pinned, and it doesn't seem easy to avoid it. If we play Qb3, Rb8 develops another piece with tempo, or Be6 centralizes the bishop while attacking the queen with tempo, and also skewering a pawn. I hope I'm not missing something obvious here, but how is that a threat? What stops us from simply
+ Show Spoiler +playing 14. RxP? Yes, the pin on our Knight is not pleasant, but it doesn't create an immediate threat that I can see either. Surely we have enough time to let it stand long enough to pick up the free pawn. Later we can relieve the pin, e.g. with Rc3.
On September 14 2011 06:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:Also, ... black could play + Show Spoiler +Qf6, defending the pawn indirectly with the Bxh2+ tactic. It's difficult to keep an initiative here. + Show Spoiler +OK, this does defend the pawn, as you say, but we can keep the initiative by continuing to attack it. After 13...Qf6, 14. Qc2 looks pretty good, threatening to capture the pawn again, and avoiding the ...Bg4 pin. To 14...Bg4 we can reply 15. Ng5, gaining a move by the threat of checkmate.
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8... d5
Round for move nine starts here and now.
Deadlines in OP and here.
13:00 KST, 17th September, Saturday.
6:00 CET, 17th September, Saturday.
0:01 EST, 17th September, Saturday.
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Hong Kong9179 Posts
9. Bxc6+
Edit: It is a check after all, haha.
+ Show Spoiler +Doubles up his pawn structure, see jdseemoreglass post above.
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Wow, no time to catch our breath with something quiet like 8...0-0. Ng5 is forcing us to make decisions right now. At a glance, we seem to have a number of plausible-looking options here + Show Spoiler +9. BxN, 9. 0-0, 9. PxP e.p., 9. Qa4, perhaps others
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EPT
