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On September 10 2011 06:55 MrProphylactic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 06:45 14GG wrote:
If we play 8.Bd2, NxB gives black the bishop pair.Then, after black castles and moves the d7-pawn he has the better position.
8. Nc3 loses.
8. Kf8 impedes the development of Rh1 severely.
8. Nbd2 looks natural. Should black reply with d5, we just castle and move queen to a4. + Show Spoiler +never would have talked anybody into this kf1 though, no matter how much analysis I provided based on its appearance and nothing more . Here are some interesting ideas to me at least . bb4 kf1? d5 qa4 winning . bb4 kf1 0-0 d5 winning. taking that into account bb4 kf1? qe7(probably best or ba5) qc2 f5 h4 0-0 qc4+ kh8 bg5 nxb hxg5 opening the h file with a nice attack .
Due to the semi-closed nature of the board The lines appear to keep the initiative for white, while avoiding any exchanges . For instance some other examples . Bb4 Kf1?! qe7 qc2 f5 (hard to find a better move than this for black here , if d5 bxc6 wins) h4 ba5 nc3 nb4 qe2 c6 bc4 d5 exd e.p. nxd qxq kxq bb3 and from here if black tries nd3 white ends up better after bg5 which is a long line in itself .
Big breath ... here we go .... nd3 bg5+ ke8 (kd7 leads to another strong position for white ) rd1 nxb2 re1+ ne4 nxn bxr nd6+ kd7 nf7 re8 nxbe1 b6 ne5 +kc7 and we lift our rook to h3 with a winning game.
Here is a line Boozer found f6 Qd3 Ng5 Nxg5 Nxg5 fxg5 a3 Ba5 b4 Bb6 Bxc6 and the black bishop is trapped and a4/5 will soon follow.
Sometimes moves that look silly for positional reasons are in fact quite playable tactically .
I now think Kf1 is positionally the second best move here.
I definitely like the tactical possibilities it gives.
As a 1500 ELO guy I didn't look too deep into the position.
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On September 10 2011 07:23 14GG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 06:55 MrProphylactic wrote:On September 10 2011 06:45 14GG wrote:
If we play 8.Bd2, NxB gives black the bishop pair.Then, after black castles and moves the d7-pawn he has the better position.
8. Nc3 loses.
8. Kf8 impedes the development of Rh1 severely.
8. Nbd2 looks natural. Should black reply with d5, we just castle and move queen to a4. + Show Spoiler +never would have talked anybody into this kf1 though, no matter how much analysis I provided based on its appearance and nothing more . Here are some interesting ideas to me at least . bb4 kf1? d5 qa4 winning . bb4 kf1 0-0 d5 winning. taking that into account bb4 kf1? qe7(probably best or ba5) qc2 f5 h4 0-0 qc4+ kh8 bg5 nxb hxg5 opening the h file with a nice attack .
Due to the semi-closed nature of the board The lines appear to keep the initiative for white, while avoiding any exchanges . For instance some other examples . Bb4 Kf1?! qe7 qc2 f5 (hard to find a better move than this for black here , if d5 bxc6 wins) h4 ba5 nc3 nb4 qe2 c6 bc4 d5 exd e.p. nxd qxq kxq bb3 and from here if black tries nd3 white ends up better after bg5 which is a long line in itself .
Big breath ... here we go .... nd3 bg5+ ke8 (kd7 leads to another strong position for white ) rd1 nxb2 re1+ ne4 nxn bxr nd6+ kd7 nf7 re8 nxbe1 b6 ne5 +kc7 and we lift our rook to h3 with a winning game.
Here is a line Boozer found f6 Qd3 Ng5 Nxg5 Nxg5 fxg5 a3 Ba5 b4 Bb6 Bxc6 and the black bishop is trapped and a4/5 will soon follow.
Sometimes moves that look silly for positional reasons are in fact quite playable tactically .
I now think Kf1 is positionally the second best move here. I definitely like the tactical possibilities it gives. As a 1500 ELO guy I didn't look too deep into the position.
It was Chesshaha who did the excellent work finding the Steinitz game btw.
I am really not for sure what is best per say. I do not really understand chess on a GM level in most areas of the game . However I felt the least amount of database literature was available on this position, and it could lead to a position where we have the chance of outplaying NG5 instead of both sides being able to rely on vast amount of database information to fall back on, and an inevitable draw as the outcome ( with never diverging from games that have been seen a million times ) . We could have ended up in a really original fun attacking game was what I was thinking . And I truly believe it is a sound move. Granted it is extremely unconventional, and at first glance does look rather ugly purely for aesthetic reasons . Not to mention it is completely anti-intuitive for the very reason you said you did not like it , It splits the rooks
Edit : btw added all the lines in that last post .
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+ Show Spoiler +
Hmm, dont really like Kf1. Maybe the tactics will work out, but black also have their own tactical shot.
One line i look at is 8. Kf1 d5 9. Qa5 looks like it threaten to win the bishop or the rook but 9....a5 defending the bishop 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qxc6 Qd7 and if 12.Qxa8 grabbing the rook black can probably go Qb5+ check and penetrate white position 13.Kg1 and O-O or Qe2 looks quite dangerous for white (and black). So many lines that just end up in a mess :/
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On September 10 2011 08:02 Raysalis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Hmm, dont really like Kf1. Maybe the tactics will work out, but black also have their own tactical shot.
One line i look at is 8. Kf1 d5 9. Qa5 looks like it threaten to win the bishop or the rook but 9....a5 defending the bishop 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qxc6 Qd7 and if 12.Qxa8 grabbing the rook black can probably go Qb5+ check and penetrate white position 13.Kg1 and O-O or Qe2 looks quite dangerous for white (and black). So many lines that just end up in a mess :/
+ Show Spoiler +That is why in this line you play the in between move 10.a3 after black plays 9.a5 driving the bishop away before playing bxc6 , that way the king may go to e1 not g1 . But the line is probably losing for white only IF we take the rook, as grabbing the rook maybe to greedy , but taking the rook or playing qa4 is not forced white could simply choose another line such as qc2 . One dangerous idea for black in that rook sac line more accurately would go like this .( But I admit you provided some analysis I overlooked, I think I initially felt qa4 was winning )
Example : 8.Kf1 d5 9.qa5 a5 10. a3 be7 11. BxN bxB 12. QXc6 + qd7! 13. qxr? qb5+ 14 .ke1 0-0 15. a4 qd3 16. qxa5 ba6 17. qxb qxq. White got a rook a minor and two pawns for the queen which puts white up material . but after looking at the following position black seems better . Taking this into consideration white should probably take13 . qxq after 12 qd7 and avoid the rook sac as it is not forcing to do so, and our king will be well placed in the center for the coming endgame struggle .
The answer , do not accept the free piece . Also, white can merely play a different line such as qc2 or h4 after d5 . Any line we play will have pitfalls to avoid . But that was good see from you I must admit .
thank you for the input , I feel I am starting to really understand this position due to all this analysis . If I ever get the chance in competition I am playing this line .
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+ Show Spoiler +Here is another very messy line after d5 that I feel gives white the edge. There are several variants of this line which I will do my best to list below . But there may be improvements , if you see any let me know . That last rook sac was a real gem .
8. Kf1 d5 9. exd e.p. ( which is completely anti-intuitive after moving kf1 but tactically seems to work out ) if 9 .qxd6 10.qe2 f5(forced) 11.a3 ba5 12. ng5!! first variant for black 12.ng5 bd7 13. nc3 bxnc3 14. nxne4 fxn 15. qxe4+ now comes some subvariants . on 15. qxe4 if black plays qe7 we simply trade queens with a slightly better endgame . The trickier line is if black interposes with ne7 . So 15. qxe4+ ne7 16. bxbd7+ qxb 17. qxb7 ? 0-0 18. bxBc3 nd5 19.bd2 rab8 20.qa6 qf5 21. re1(not qe2 which loses) rb2 22. qd3 ra2 23. h4 rxa3 24. rh3(finally getting the rook active) and white is better !!!!!
Here is a variant where we play ng5 right away . 8.kf1 f5 9. ng5 a6 10. nxne4 f5xn 11. qxe4+ qe6
12. BxNc6+ bxB 13. qxq+ bxq 14. be3 0-0 15. nc3 a5. 16. f3 rab8 17. na4 bd5 18. kf2 .
white is up a pawn and black has a weak structure but the bishop pair to compensate . Roughly equal with a slight edge white .
One thing you are correct about it is a very messy line.
Which is why I wanted to play it . I felt our team would have the best chances in a messy all out slug-fest like this, that almost zero theory exists on in this particular opening , instead of something where he can grind us down in well known theory, and choose at his leisure when to spring a novelty on us .
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8. Nbd2
+ Show Spoiler +I think I like 9. Ba4 over 9. Bc4 if 8... a6. Although 9. Bd3 doesn't look bad either.
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Everyone is thinking completely different things! everyone has a different tactic and this will make it so hard to actually play, but i hope you guys do it for the community!
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Here is an interesting game while we kill time waiting for the next move. Me versus Grandmaster Alex Goldin . It is a game where we only have 10 minutes to start with on our clocks, So it is by far from perfectly played . We were both of us just having fun trying to play as crazy as we could, there are some missed moves, but it is always nice to beat a GM.Even in blitz. It is a pirc opening I am the black pieces. Just played this the other day .
+ Show Spoiler + 1. e4 d6 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. d4 Bg7 5. Bg5 h6
6. Bh4 g5 7. Bg3 Nh5 8. Qd2 e6 9. O-O-O Bd7 10. Bc4 Qe7
11. Bb3 Nc6 12. d5 Na5 13. dxe6 Nxb3+ 14. axb3 fxe6 15. e5 d5
16. Ne2 c5 17. Qd3 O-O-O 18. Qg6 Nxg3 19. hxg3 Be8 20. Qd3 b5
21. g4 c4 22. bxc4 bxc4 23. Qc3 Rd7 24. Ned4 Rb7 25. Kd2 Kb8
26. Ra1 Rf8 27. Ra6 Bd7 28. Rxe6 Qc5 29. Rg6 Bxg4 30. Ra1 Bxf3
31. Nxf3 Qxf2+ 32. Kc1 Qf1+ 33. Ne1 Qf4+ 34. Kb1 Bxe5 35. Qa5 Rxb2#
0-1
( somewhere in here , black has a nice tactic with pushing g4 and following up with qg5 check)
Edit: move 20
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I have a while now so let me check out all the votes so far and the drama that unfolded.
Getting back at you soon, guys.
God I already felt it was the third day last night and it's only been two now, right?
Edit: I will fucking kill someone. Just get ready for blood. And I'm not even reading everything and not even half way through yet.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2011 12:44 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 11:39 Picklesicle wrote:On September 06 2011 11:15 qrs wrote:You say that 7. Qe2 is a weaker version of + Show Spoiler +That implies that you don't mind conceding Black + Show Spoiler +a pawn at the least--two pawns in jdseemoreglass's preferred line For anyone who does not feel comfortable handing that to Black, the two moves are not even comparable. You are correct. That would be the implication. ... re. Qe2 + Show Spoiler +
After some thought (this was the move I've had in mind for a while now should Ne4 be played, as I've mentioned in previous moves), I concur that this is a weaker version of 0-0, since it allows Black to advance the d-pawn and recapture with the b-pawn should the trade occur unless white spends a tempo to get back on the d1-a4 diagonal.
Could you clarify what you meant here? As written, I don't understand what you have in mind with this. I'm referring to jdseemoreglass' line in which we + Show Spoiler +do the exchange on c6, in which Black recaptures with the b-pawn and then we play Qa4 to apply more pressure.
Thanks for clarifying. If you don't mind my saying, it would actually be even more helpful if you could paste in the line in question, but not to worry, I was able to track it down (thankfully we haven't yet reached page 51). You were referring to the following line after 7. 0-0: + Show Spoiler +On September 05 2011 07:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:After 7. ... d5 8. exd6ep Nxd6 9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4, black can't defend the pawn and the threat of Re1+. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SOCk7.png) 10. ... O-O 11. Qxc6, threatening the rook and the bishop. Black must play: 11. ... Nb7 12. cxd4 Bb6 13. Nc3 Rb8 14. Be3, and we are safely a pawn up. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8WbKX.png) If I'm understanding you correctly, then, you are saying that this line is an improvement over similar lines that follow 7. Qe2 because after 7. Qe2+ Show Spoiler [rest of line] +7. ... d5 8. exd6ep Nxd6 9. Bxc6 bxc6 White's original 10th move is no longer an option. However, if that's right, then you must not have used a board, because after 7. Qe2, Black's original 8th move in that line isn't possible either. In fact, no move that regains the material is immediately possible (because + Show Spoiler [)] +the Knight is in danger and is pinned to the King) and, in fact, in every line that I've seen given following 7. Qe2, we simply keep that material. Therefore, while it's true that the specific line in question isn't possible after 7. Qe2, that is irrelevant, as that line isn't needed to gain material either. On the other hand, Black's 7th move, conceding us the material, is all but forced after 7. Qe2, which it is not after 7. 0-0. Thus, if one move is to be described as a "weaker version of the other" on the basis of the lines that follow this 7th move of Black's, if anything, I'd say that the boot is on the other foot. But at the end of the day, despite averring that 7. 0-0 is a stronger version of 7. Qe2, you voted for the latter move anyhow, so I seem to be preaching to the mysteriously converted. How did I miss this discussion. It is humorous .
I would think NBD2 has an overwhelming amount of votes at this point, .
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Some times ago I heard that someone claimed; one should listen to others. That you can learn something from everyone. From the professor, from the kids, from the janitor. That guy is one of the best and highest rated engineers in the whole world. His average speed over the year is over 9000 two hundred miles an hour. And he actually meant it.
I have more GM scapls in blitz (and not just blitz) that I would care to count (three of the world's top 20 are amongst them, by the way). I have people I know I influence no matter what I do. And I usually have some of them following me.
What I have not ever had is the will of anyone following me. I didn't want to be complimented, or be looked up to. I'm just a human. When I do a lot of things differently it makes me awesome less times than it does make me a retard.
And there's one thing I don't want to ever happen. Me being condescending on someone.
None of my achievements matter if I'm just another dick. And if you're talking about Fischer. He was stupid in many ways. But it was also him who said everyone can lose a game of chess. It was actually Nizowitsch who said why must I lose to such an idiot.
Anyone who treats lower rated people like trash, or even thinks of them that way is disrespecting chess. I don't care what you think about each other. I don't like everyone all the time, either. And I do call people bad, and say that they couldn't tell a knight from a bishop without their engines. The difference is - it doesn't matter I could still learn from their play. And you could too.
But if you go throw a fit about what you accomplished and how much more it is than others'... You spit on your own accomplishments. And you spit on chess. The first makes me sad, for your accomplishments. The later one... Makes me want to teach you what humility is.
The reason why I hate chess sites. All of them. Is that when you climb to the top everyone thinks you are the same as them. Either you cheat like they do, or that you only do it to impress the bitches. Each and every hobby site does that.
The reason why I play on ICC. And the reason why I love ICC is... I can be just one of many people. One in a million. And I don't want to be more. I want to improve my chess if I'll have the time. And I want to learn till the day I die. But I'm happy to be one of a great community.
Sometimes TL makes me sick. Upon reading particular threads. But I chose it. I chose it not because I thought I would be top dog here. I would have just as much fun on the other side of this chess match, giving analysis as I'm having here. I'm doing this for the love. But it's not the love of measuring the size of my dick. Nor is it the love of feeling important. It's the love of chess and the love of a community I chose to be part of.
The reason why I want to do Chess for Noobies is because I love people. Masters have told me before that I could coach them. I don't necessarily want that. I want to have people with fresh minds. Ideas. Who want to learn. I want to know them, see their thoughts, read their mind, and help them in things that I think are lacking in modern books.
I think that everyone has a mother. And everyone should have a caring mother. And even if they don't... When I'm being a dick to someone I can't help thinking about that loving and caring mother that I made sad because a retard was an asshole towards her child.
This is the kind of community I'm building here. Maybe just once every three days. Maybe sometimes more. But I'm building it. Two nights ago I didn't sleep, because I was working. All night. But I still am happy to log on here the day after instead of falling to bed. Because I do it with my heart.
If you try to degrade this community. This fun that I'm building. I will fucking put my boots on.
If you try to downtalk to others, more than I did in this thread ever. I will fucking put my boots on.
And I don't care who you think started. Or if you think you are just defending yourself.
I said it once. And I will say it again. I don't want you to respect me as a person. I don't want you to respect my achievements. I want you to respect the time and effort I'm putting into this.
These are my nerds. They are my nerds not because I own them. They are because I'm one of them.
If you mistreat my nerds. You're fucking with me. And good thing I have my boots on today.(*)
And my...
(*) Wonder how many will get the reference...
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MrProphylactic wrote:
Here is an interesting game while we kill time waiting for the next move. Me versus Grandmaster Alex Goldin .
He isn't fond of playing against 1. f3 2. Kf2 either.
Edit: And that was my way of sarcasm. I don't even have the game saved anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Just like the rating of my opponent. It's like the cemetery... Deep below we are all the same.
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On September 10 2011 14:41 Ng5 wrote:
I have a while now so let me check out all the votes so far and the drama that unfolded.
Getting back at you soon, guys.
God I already felt it was the third day last night and it's only been two now, right?
Edit: I will fucking kill someone. Just get ready for blood. And I'm not even reading everything and not even half way through yet.
LOLZ oh noe we've awakened da beast! We better get ready guys, cause I have a STRONG feeling Ng5 is going to unleash Fritz on us with 3k elo. Or he's going to beast mode. Either or...
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Well said, Ng5. I appreciate the effort and the message of that post.
I can't wait until you start streaming, and start this "Chess for Noobies" thing. It would be much more enjoyable for me than a SC2 stream 
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On September 11 2011 00:26 Seldentar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 14:41 Ng5 wrote:
I have a while now so let me check out all the votes so far and the drama that unfolded.
Getting back at you soon, guys.
God I already felt it was the third day last night and it's only been two now, right?
Edit: I will fucking kill someone. Just get ready for blood. And I'm not even reading everything and not even half way through yet. LOLZ oh noe we've awakened da beast! We better get ready guys, cause I have a STRONG feeling Ng5 is going to unleash Fritz on us with 3k elo. Or he's going to beast mode. Either or...
I sure hope he wont unleash Fritz (although I fear Rybka (well I guess it is a clone of fruit they say now) a great deal more, Fritz is beatable ) Because using programs is against the spirit and honor system of this event ????
Ng5 wrote
Edit: And that was my way of sarcasm. I don't even have the game saved anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Just like the rating of my opponent. It's like the cemetery... Deep below we are all the same.
Last edit: 2011-09-10 16:42:59
Dooh you got me!! That game I posted had absolutely nothing to do with the fact I find it very interesting as a Pirc.player ???.
I can see why you think the game is taken seriously after I said it was just for fun in the description and neither of us were playing in a serious manner . Who would have thought you are a clairivoyant !!!!!!! It seems I have been focusing on self-improvement in the wrong manner all I have to do to learn about myself and my intentions is come to team liquid .Have you considered the marketability of your talents as a psychic??? You could probably make a killing at those carnival-guess-the-weight games .
Alas I need to learn from you the method of posting any of my games or tactical puzzles from my games, while remaining devoid of ego .
As when you do it that is most assuredly the case .
If it wasn't for your Jesus-like altruism I would be detecting quite a few double-standards at this point
well.. maybe I am being a tad sarcastic as well 
edit:
Ng5 said ":Masters have told me before that I could coach them"
ng5 said "And that was my way of sarcasm. I don't even have the game saved anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Just like the rating of my opponent. It's like the cemetery... Deep below we are all the same.
I cannot help but see the irony when comparing the measure of those two statements
Just a little more sarcasm Ah but everyone does have their own unique measuring stick for objectivity
User was temp banned for this post.
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lol....
Put on your boots Ng5! Put on your boots! 
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 11 2011 02:53 MrProphylactic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 00:26 Seldentar wrote:On September 10 2011 14:41 Ng5 wrote:
I have a while now so let me check out all the votes so far and the drama that unfolded.
Getting back at you soon, guys.
God I already felt it was the third day last night and it's only been two now, right?
Edit: I will fucking kill someone. Just get ready for blood. And I'm not even reading everything and not even half way through yet. LOLZ oh noe we've awakened da beast! We better get ready guys, cause I have a STRONG feeling Ng5 is going to unleash Fritz on us with 3k elo. Or he's going to beast mode. Either or... I sure hope he wont unleash Fritz (although I fear Rybka (well I guess it is a clone of fruit they say now) a great deal more, Fritz is beatable ) Because using programs is against the spirit and honor system of this event ???? Show nested quote +
Ng5 wrote
Edit: And that was my way of sarcasm. I don't even have the game saved anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Just like the rating of my opponent. It's like the cemetery... Deep below we are all the same.
Last edit: 2011-09-10 16:42:59
Dooh you got me!! That game I posted had absolutely nothing to do with the fact I find it very interesting as a Pirc.player ???. I can see why you think the game is taken seriously after I said it was just for fun in the description and neither of us were playing in a serious manner . Who would have thought you are a clairivoyant !!!!!!! It seems I have been focusing on self-improvement in the wrong manner all I have to do to learn about myself and my intentions is come to team liquid .Have you considered the marketability of your talents as a psychic??? You could probably make a killing at those carnival-guess-the-weight games . Alas I need to learn from you the method of posting any of my games or tactical puzzles from my games, while remaining devoid of ego . As when you do it that is most assuredly the case . If it wasn't for your Jesus-like altruism I would be detecting quite a few double-standards at this point well.. maybe I am being a tad sarcastic as well Show nested quote +
edit:
Ng5 said ":Masters have told me before that I could coach them"
ng5 said "And that was my way of sarcasm. I don't even have the game saved anymore. Because it doesn't matter. Just like the rating of my opponent. It's like the cemetery... Deep below we are all the same.
I cannot help but see the irony when comparing the measure of those two statements Just a little more sarcasm Ah but everyone does have their own unique measuring stick for objectivity
Poll: Should MrProphylactic's votes be counted going forwards?Yes (5) 63% No (3) 38% 8 total votes Your vote: Should MrProphylactic's votes be counted going forwards? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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There is so much dickwaving in this thread its amazing.
I hope in the next thread the use of engines are banned and its required to provide analysis based on your own insight not what GMs have played most or what the book line is. If you can't take the time to analyze the position and come up with a move because you're afraid of being wrong then you aren't contributing anything to the conversation.
This needs to be about the game and the development of the community.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6bSg2.jpg)
