On September 14 2011 11:02 itsjustatank wrote:
9. Bxc6
+ Show Spoiler +
See my post below his--I'm not saying it's a bad move, but we don't have to play it now.9. Bxc6
+ Show Spoiler +
Doubles up his pawn structure, see jdseemoreglass post above
Forum Index > General Games |
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 14 2011 11:02 itsjustatank wrote: See my post below his--I'm not saying it's a bad move, but we don't have to play it now.9. Bxc6 + Show Spoiler + Doubles up his pawn structure, see jdseemoreglass post above | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
| ||
Ng5
702 Posts
qrs wrote: You didn't expect d5? | ||
chesshaha
United States1117 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I think we need to play 0-0 asap, because if we don't black can play 9. ... Bg4 which is really bad for white. I really don't like Bxc6 here, i think it is giving up an advantage to say the least. I don't see any other move is good for us besides 0-0, I think 0-0 is a must play or we be in a really bad position in a few moves. Edit: forgot to bold my move. \_/ | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [rationale] + It's a sensible move: it eliminates the pin on our Knight, and more generally, the tactical threats that arise from having our King exposed. Even though it's not an aggressive move per se, removing the constraints on our position effectively pressures Black--for example, after 9. 0-0 frees our Nd2, NxN becomes a threat: after Black recaptures with the pawn, it will be hard for him to maintain his unsupported pawn on e4. On the previous page, jdseemoreglass argues for 9. Bxc6 on the grounds that if we don't play this move right away, Black can eliminate the pin on his Knight with ...Bd7, but I think the threat of 10. NxN is too strong for Black to play the immediate 9...Bd7 (see the third point in this post), so we can afford to delay this move. Everything else being equal, we stand to gain from waiting to cash in our chips. For example, after we play Bxc6 Pxc6, Black will have the option of ...Bh6--something he didn't have until we exchanged off our Bishop. There's also 9. PxP e.p. to consider. It's worth a longer look than the others because it's a limited-time offer--if we don't play it now, we can't play it again. However, in general, I agree with jdseemoreglass's assessment: jdseemoreglass wrote: Meanwhile, I don't see much for us to gain in exchanging off our strong central pawn (which is all the stronger now that Black's d-pawn has passed it), so I don't think that we should go for this exchange.I didn't look at any specific tactics or lines in the en passant variation. It just immediately looked bad to me after trading bishop for knight, because the board is completely wide open and black will have the coordinated bishop pair, as well as open files for his rooks. Our knight will be almost helpless in this position. Also, while it's true that we are indeed weakening black's pawn structure, note that we are doing so with a weakening of our own, the isolated queen pawn. Also, black's bishop has retreated and can defend the c5 square, meaning he can play c5. This will force us to trade off his doubled c-pawn, or to further advance and weaken our d-pawn. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
| ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 14 2011 11:25 chesshaha wrote: I voted for the same move as you, but I don't like your reasoning: you talk about "if we don't", as if the Black move you mention rules out all possible responses other than 9. 0-0. But does it really rule out + Show Spoiler [these?] +9. 0-0 ...if we don't black can play + Show Spoiler + 9. ...Bg4 which is really bad for white. I really don't like Bxc6 here, i think it is giving up an advantage to say the least. I don't see any other move is good for us besides 0-0, I think 0-0 is a must play or we be in a really bad position in a few moves. Edit: forgot to bold my move. \_/ 9. Bxc6, 9. PxP e.p., 9. Qa4, 9. Qb3, or 9. a3 Which were the alternative moves for us that you were considering which were ruled out by this Black move? | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
On September 14 2011 11:38 qrs wrote: We considered the possibility, but I thought you might find it more prudent to take a move to see to your King's safety before plunging full speed ahead. Apparently not. Both sides have less branches after immediate castling and you guys have far less to talk about and discuss. | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
![]() My analysis: + Show Spoiler + 9. O-O is certainly a solid move. The question here is, do we have better? I think we might.... 9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4. I didn't see this move in my last analysis, but it looks strong. Here we are forking the c6 pawn, and the bishop at b4. Let's look at black's options... ![]() 10. ...Rb8 defending the bishop. (10. ... a5 would lose the rook or the d-pawn after Qxc6+.) Here, we have the option of taking a free pawn. 11. Qxc6+. Black can't interpose the bishop, because he would then lose his d-pawn. So 11. ... Qd7 12. Qxd7 Bxd7 13. a3, and we are safely up a pawn with queens off the board. ![]() -OR- 10. ... Bxd2. Here we retake with the knight in order to attack the black knight on e4. Black shouldn't allow us to capture his knight next move, and he doesn't have a good escape square. 11. Nxd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2, and here, there isn't much black can do to prevent us from dominating the dark squares, and making his doubled c-pawns a liability. For example, placing the queen on c2 or the bishop of the a3-f8 diagonal, and his doubled pawns will be stuck in place, and his a-pawn is weak and isolated. ![]() I'm casting my vote for 9. Bxc6+. | ||
Ikari
United States176 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo. Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade. | ||
Boozerr
United States28 Posts
On September 14 2011 12:29 jdseemoreglass wrote: ![]() My analysis: + Show Spoiler + 10. ... Bxd2. Here we retake with the knight in order to attack the black knight on e4. Black shouldn't allow us to capture his knight next move, and he doesn't have a good escape square. 11. Nxd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2, and here, there isn't much black can do to prevent us from dominating the dark squares, and making his doubled c-pawns a liability. For example, placing the queen on c2 or the bishop of the a3-f8 diagonal, and his doubled pawns will be stuck in place, and his a-pawn is weak and isolated. ![]() I'm casting my vote for 9. Bxc6+. + Show Spoiler + Looks like a draw with the opposite colored bishops IMO. I think black can still draw while 2 pawns down | ||
dtvu
Australia687 Posts
9) Qa4. The reason being attacking the c6 knight and b4 Bishop at the same time. If Black goes: 9)... Bd7 10) Bxc6 10)... bxc6 11) Qxb4 - wins bishop This positions the Queen much earlier. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote: At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +9. Bxc6+ + Show Spoiler + I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo. Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade. After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+ 9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7) 10. NxN | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 14 2011 13:34 dtvu wrote: You should put your lines in spoilers. Although in this case, they are not correct + Show Spoiler +I'll cast my vote on: 9) Qa4. + Show Spoiler + The reason being attacking the c6 knight and b4 Bishop at the same time. If Black goes: 9)... Bd7 10) Bxc6 10)... bxc6 11) Qxb4 - wins bishop This positions the Queen much earlier. 10...Bxd2+ and Black is fine. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 14 2011 12:29 jdseemoreglass wrote: ![]() My analysis: + Show Spoiler + 9. O-O is certainly a solid move. The question here is, do we have better? I think we might.... 9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4. I didn't see this move in my last analysis, but it looks strong. Here we are forking the c6 pawn, and the bishop at b4. Let's look at black's options... ... 10. ... Bxd2. Here we retake with the knight in order to attack the black knight on e4. Black shouldn't allow us to capture his knight next move, and he doesn't have a good escape square. 11. Nxd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2, and here, there isn't much black can do to prevent us from dominating the dark squares, and making his doubled c-pawns a liability. For example, placing the queen on c2 or the bishop of the a3-f8 diagonal, and his doubled pawns will be stuck in place, and his a-pawn is weak and isolated. ![]() I'm casting my vote for 9. Bxc6+. | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On September 14 2011 14:06 qrs wrote: Show nested quote + At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote: 9. Bxc6+ + Show Spoiler + I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo. Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade. After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+ 9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7) 10. NxN The tactics are not the same if we castle first: + Show Spoiler + Allowing black to castle significantly changes the tactics involved. 1) After Qa4, the c-pawn is no longer pinned. Black can play c5, defending his bishop, removing his pawn from attack, and undermining our pawn center. We can perhaps still win a pawn here after dxc5, but the position does not seem as favorable as playing Bxc6+ first. 9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 c5 ![]() 2) Because we won't be capturing the c-pawn with check, black now doesn't have to exchange queens. He can play for example: 9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 Rb8 12. Qxc6 Rb6 13. Qc2 Bf5 ![]() 3) Part of the strength of the Bxd2 line above is that we can threaten to occupy the a3- f8 diagonal, preventing black from castling. Black's c-pawn is hanging and he can't meet both threats at the same time: ![]() Perhaps there are alternate moves for either side that are better. In either case, the position is less clear and less forcing, and seems to offer black better chances imo. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 14 2011 14:55 jdseemoreglass wrote: You make some good points. I'm going to reconsider my vote. For now, changing to abstain.Show nested quote + On September 14 2011 14:06 qrs wrote: On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote: At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +9. Bxc6+ + Show Spoiler + I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo. Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade. After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+ 9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7) 10. NxN The tactics are not the same if we castle first: + Show Spoiler + Allowing black to castle significantly changes the tactics involved. 1) After Qa4, the c-pawn is no longer pinned. Black can play c5, defending his bishop, removing his pawn from attack, and undermining our pawn center. We can perhaps still win a pawn here after dxc5, but the position does not seem as favorable as playing Bxc6+ first. 9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 c5 ![]() 2) Because we won't be capturing the c-pawn with check, black now doesn't have to exchange queens. He can play for example: 9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 Rb8 12. Qxc6 Rb6 13. Qc2 Bf5 ![]() 3) Part of the strength of the Bxd2 line above is that we can threaten to occupy the a3- f8 diagonal, preventing black from castling. Black's c-pawn is hanging and he can't meet both threats at the same time: ![]() Perhaps there are alternate moves for either side that are better. In either case, the position is less clear and less forcing, and seems to offer black better chances imo. | ||
Blazinghand
![]()
United States25550 Posts
9. O-O | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On September 14 2011 15:19 Blazinghand wrote: We've waited far too long to do this. My vote is 9. O-O Blazinghand, what's become of you? Have you lost your fire? The eye of the tiger? I remember not just a few weeks ago you were saying... On August 08 2011 07:28 Blazinghand wrote: 1 e4 e5 should go into 2. f4 The King's Gambit is baller as dicks and we should go with it. Although 2. Nf3 is the highest-rated response in terms of victory. 2.f4 is the highest-rated response in terms of balling and being basically a baller. So I recommend we ball all day erry day and go for the King's Gambit like the ballers we are. I say black has waited far too long to not castle... The best defense is a strong offense, the time to strike is now, like the ballers we are! ![]() | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I looked at 9. Qa4 and wasn't satisfied with how easily Black can get out of it. But By taking Bishop first, it creates a weakness in black's pawn structure. Additionally, we can follow it up with 10. Qa4 which defeats the outpost for black's knight (10...Bxd2+ 11. Nxd2 and the Knight is forced away or 10...Rb8 11. 0-0 which also leads to the knight moved away). As far as 9. 0-0 goes, I think it kinda is a less aggressive move that lets black have an extra turn to prepare against a Bxc6 type move. Although after castling, it's gonna be very hard for black to maintain his pawn structure and his e4 knight. But like I've said before, I like to play more aggresive than most people. | ||
| ||
![]() StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Mini Dota 2![]() Snow ![]() ZerO ![]() hero ![]() Barracks ![]() Sea.KH ![]() Aegong ![]() ToSsGirL ![]() Rock ![]() Terrorterran ![]() [ Show more ] Counter-Strike Other Games hiko1050 KnowMe643 Beastyqt629 DeMusliM543 Fuzer ![]() crisheroes323 Hui .315 Liquid`VortiX199 QueenE194 ArmadaUGS90 JuggernautJason54 Trikslyr27 ZerO(Twitch)26 Organizations StarCraft 2 Other Games StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War
StarCraft 2 • StrangeGG StarCraft: Brood War![]() • LUISG ![]() • Adnapsc2 ![]() • tFFMrPink ![]() ![]() • LaughNgamezSOOP • sooper7s • AfreecaTV YouTube • intothetv ![]() • Kozan • IndyKCrew ![]() • Laughngamez YouTube • Migwel ![]() League of Legends Other Games |
SOOP
SKillous vs Spirit
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
PiG Sty Festival
Serral vs TriGGeR
Cure vs SHIN
The PondCast
Replay Cast
PiG Sty Festival
Clem vs Bunny
Solar vs Zoun
Replay Cast
Korean StarCraft League
PiG Sty Festival
herO vs Rogue
ByuN vs SKillous
SC Evo Complete
[ Show More ] [BSL 2025] Weekly
Replay Cast
SOOP Global
ByuN vs Zoun
Rogue vs Bunny
PiG Sty Festival
MaxPax vs Classic
Dark vs Maru
Sparkling Tuna Cup
|
|