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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 61

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qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 02:07 GMT
#1201
On September 14 2011 11:02 itsjustatank wrote:
9. Bxc6

+ Show Spoiler +
Doubles up his pawn structure, see jdseemoreglass post above
See my post below his--I'm not saying it's a bad move, but we don't have to play it now.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 14 2011 02:22 GMT
#1202
When did I turn into a zealot?
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 14 2011 02:23 GMT
#1203
qrs wrote:


You didn't expect d5?
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 02:26:13
September 14 2011 02:25 GMT
#1204
9. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
I think we need to play 0-0 asap, because if we don't black can play 9. ... Bg4 which is really bad for white. I really don't like Bxc6 here, i think it is giving up an advantage to say the least. I don't see any other move is good for us besides 0-0, I think 0-0 is a must play or we be in a really bad position in a few moves.


Edit: forgot to bold my move. \_/
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 02:35 GMT
#1205
My vote (subject to change): 9. 0-0
+ Show Spoiler [rationale] +
It's a sensible move: it eliminates the pin on our Knight, and more generally, the tactical threats that arise from having our King exposed. Even though it's not an aggressive move per se, removing the constraints on our position effectively pressures Black--for example, after 9. 0-0 frees our Nd2, NxN becomes a threat: after Black recaptures with the pawn, it will be hard for him to maintain his unsupported pawn on e4.

On the previous page, jdseemoreglass argues for 9. Bxc6 on the grounds that if we don't play this move right away, Black can eliminate the pin on his Knight with ...Bd7, but I think the threat of 10. NxN is too strong for Black to play the immediate 9...Bd7 (see the third point in this post), so we can afford to delay this move. Everything else being equal, we stand to gain from waiting to cash in our chips. For example, after we play Bxc6 Pxc6, Black will have the option of ...Bh6--something he didn't have until we exchanged off our Bishop.

There's also 9. PxP e.p. to consider. It's worth a longer look than the others because it's a limited-time offer--if we don't play it now, we can't play it again. However, in general, I agree with jdseemoreglass's assessment:
jdseemoreglass wrote:
I didn't look at any specific tactics or lines in the en passant variation. It just immediately looked bad to me after trading bishop for knight, because the board is completely wide open and black will have the coordinated bishop pair, as well as open files for his rooks. Our knight will be almost helpless in this position.

Also, while it's true that we are indeed weakening black's pawn structure, note that we are doing so with a weakening of our own, the isolated queen pawn. Also, black's bishop has retreated and can defend the c5 square, meaning he can play c5. This will force us to trade off his doubled c-pawn, or to further advance and weaken our d-pawn.
Meanwhile, I don't see much for us to gain in exchanging off our strong central pawn (which is all the stronger now that Black's d-pawn has passed it), so I don't think that we should go for this exchange.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 02:38 GMT
#1206
On September 14 2011 11:23 Ng5 wrote:
Show nested quote +
qrs wrote:

You didn't expect d5?
We considered the possibility, but I thought you might find it more prudent to take a move to see to your King's safety before plunging full speed ahead. Apparently not.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 03:25:01
September 14 2011 02:47 GMT
#1207
On September 14 2011 11:25 chesshaha wrote:
9. 0-0

...if we don't black can play + Show Spoiler +
9. ...Bg4 which is really bad for white. I really don't like Bxc6 here, i think it is giving up an advantage to say the least. I don't see any other move is good for us besides 0-0, I think 0-0 is a must play or we be in a really bad position in a few moves.


Edit: forgot to bold my move. \_/
I voted for the same move as you, but I don't like your reasoning: you talk about "if we don't", as if the Black move you mention rules out all possible responses other than 9. 0-0. But does it really rule out + Show Spoiler [these?] +
9. Bxc6, 9. PxP e.p., 9. Qa4, 9. Qb3, or 9. a3
I don't think that your move is a good Black response to any of those moves, which means that by itself, it's not an argument for playing 9. 0-0 and nothing else.

Which were the alternative moves for us that you were considering which were ruled out by this Black move?
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 14 2011 02:54 GMT
#1208
On September 14 2011 11:38 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 11:23 Ng5 wrote:
qrs wrote:

You didn't expect d5?
We considered the possibility, but I thought you might find it more prudent to take a move to see to your King's safety before plunging full speed ahead. Apparently not.


Both sides have less branches after immediate castling and you guys have far less to talk about and discuss.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
September 14 2011 03:29 GMT
#1209
[image loading]

My analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +

9. O-O is certainly a solid move. The question here is, do we have better? I think we might....


9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4. I didn't see this move in my last analysis, but it looks strong. Here we are forking the c6 pawn, and the bishop at b4. Let's look at black's options...

[image loading]

10. ...Rb8 defending the bishop. (10. ... a5 would lose the rook or the d-pawn after Qxc6+.) Here, we have the option of taking a free pawn. 11. Qxc6+. Black can't interpose the bishop, because he would then lose his d-pawn. So 11. ... Qd7 12. Qxd7 Bxd7 13. a3, and we are safely up a pawn with queens off the board.

[image loading]

-OR-

10. ... Bxd2. Here we retake with the knight in order to attack the black knight on e4. Black shouldn't allow us to capture his knight next move, and he doesn't have a good escape square. 11. Nxd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2, and here, there isn't much black can do to prevent us from dominating the dark squares, and making his doubled c-pawns a liability. For example, placing the queen on c2 or the bishop of the a3-f8 diagonal, and his doubled pawns will be stuck in place, and his a-pawn is weak and isolated.

[image loading]


I'm casting my vote for 9. Bxc6+.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Ikari
Profile Joined April 2007
United States176 Posts
September 14 2011 03:46 GMT
#1210
9. Bxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo.

Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade.
God Mode: Alt+F4
Boozerr
Profile Joined October 2010
United States28 Posts
September 14 2011 03:57 GMT
#1211
On September 14 2011 12:29 jdseemoreglass wrote:
[image loading]

My analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +

10. ... Bxd2. Here we retake with the knight in order to attack the black knight on e4. Black shouldn't allow us to capture his knight next move, and he doesn't have a good escape square. 11. Nxd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2, and here, there isn't much black can do to prevent us from dominating the dark squares, and making his doubled c-pawns a liability. For example, placing the queen on c2 or the bishop of the a3-f8 diagonal, and his doubled pawns will be stuck in place, and his a-pawn is weak and isolated.

[image loading]


I'm casting my vote for 9. Bxc6+.


+ Show Spoiler +
Looks like a draw with the opposite colored bishops IMO. I think black can still draw while 2 pawns down
dtvu
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia687 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 04:34:45
September 14 2011 04:34 GMT
#1212
I'll cast my vote on:
9) Qa4.

The reason being attacking the c6 knight and b4 Bishop at the same time.
If Black goes: 9)... Bd7 10) Bxc6 10)... bxc6 11) Qxb4 - wins bishop

This positions the Queen much earlier.

qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 05:16:23
September 14 2011 05:06 GMT
#1213
On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote:
9. Bxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo.

Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade.
At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +
After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+
That's my question for everybody voting for 9. Bxc6: what do you see that makes you think it has to be this move? Unless Black plays + Show Spoiler +
9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7)
we retain the ability to play this move later on. If Black does play that move, we can respond with + Show Spoiler +
10. NxN
and I think we have the advantage. So why force things before we have to?
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 05:09 GMT
#1214
On September 14 2011 13:34 dtvu wrote:
I'll cast my vote on:
9) Qa4.

+ Show Spoiler +
The reason being attacking the c6 knight and b4 Bishop at the same time.
If Black goes: 9)... Bd7 10) Bxc6 10)... bxc6 11) Qxb4 - wins bishop


This positions the Queen much earlier.
You should put your lines in spoilers. Although in this case, they are not correct + Show Spoiler +
10...Bxd2+ and Black is fine.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 14:35:26
September 14 2011 05:40 GMT
#1215
Edit: I found a mistake in my analysis. jd's original line was fine. Ignore this post entirely, please.
On September 14 2011 12:29 jdseemoreglass wrote:
[image loading]

My analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +

9. O-O is certainly a solid move. The question here is, do we have better? I think we might....


9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4. I didn't see this move in my last analysis, but it looks strong. Here we are forking the c6 pawn, and the bishop at b4. Let's look at black's options...
...
10. ... Bxd2. Here we retake with the knight in order to attack the black knight on e4. Black shouldn't allow us to capture his knight next move, and he doesn't have a good escape square. 11. Nxd2 Nxd2 12. Bxd2, and here, there isn't much black can do to prevent us from dominating the dark squares, and making his doubled c-pawns a liability. For example, placing the queen on c2 or the bishop of the a3-f8 diagonal, and his doubled pawns will be stuck in place, and his a-pawn is weak and isolated.

[image loading]


I'm casting my vote for 9. Bxc6+.
I think that your line has improvements for both White and Black. For White: + Show Spoiler +
12. Qxc6+ Bd7 13. Qxd5: now we have two extra pawns, and we will still get the Knight, which is trapped. Edit: I missed 13...c6! saving the Knight
This would be very good for us, but Black has an earlier improvement:Edit: this is no longer relevant, as the original line was not as bad for Black as I thought.+ Show Spoiler +
10...Nxd2 11. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 12. Nxd2
This brings us to a very similar situation to jdseemoreglass's original line, except that I think it is slightly better for us because we have the option of + Show Spoiler +
keeping our Knight instead of our dark-squared Bishop. I agree with Boozerr that an endgame with opposite-colored Bishops and no other minor pieces looks drawish no matter what Black's pawn structure is. Without a minor piece of our own that can attack c6, we have no hope of capturing it, when Black can defend it with his Bishop.


With the above corrections, I think jd's preferred line certainly looks good for us. I'm not convinced it's best, though. For one thing, as I've been saying over and over, 9. 0-0 is surely no worse than 9. Bxc6 because [spoiler]unless Black plays the bad 9. ...Bd7 or the worse 9... Qd7, we can always play Bxc6 later on, and attain essentially the same positions.[/spoiler]Of course, all that means is that 9. 0-0 is no worse than 9. Bxc6--it doesn't make it better. However, I think that 9. 0-0, in addition to giving us all the possibilities that Bxc6 does, gives us others that Bxc6 does not. I'll get into that in a separate post.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-14 05:59:33
September 14 2011 05:55 GMT
#1216
On September 14 2011 14:06 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote:
9. Bxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo.

Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade.
At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +
After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+
That's my question for everybody voting for 9. Bxc6: what do you see that makes you think it has to be this move? Unless Black plays + Show Spoiler +
9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7)
we retain the ability to play this move later on. If Black does play that move, we can respond with + Show Spoiler +
10. NxN
and I think we have the advantage. So why force things before we have to?


The tactics are not the same if we castle first:
+ Show Spoiler +
Allowing black to castle significantly changes the tactics involved.

1) After Qa4, the c-pawn is no longer pinned. Black can play c5, defending his bishop, removing his pawn from attack, and undermining our pawn center. We can perhaps still win a pawn here after dxc5, but the position does not seem as favorable as playing Bxc6+ first.

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 c5

[image loading]


2) Because we won't be capturing the c-pawn with check, black now doesn't have to exchange queens. He can play for example:

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 Rb8 12. Qxc6 Rb6 13. Qc2 Bf5

[image loading]


3) Part of the strength of the Bxd2 line above is that we can threaten to occupy the a3- f8 diagonal, preventing black from castling. Black's c-pawn is hanging and he can't meet both threats at the same time:

[image loading]


Perhaps there are alternate moves for either side that are better. In either case, the position is less clear and less forcing, and seems to offer black better chances imo.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
September 14 2011 06:10 GMT
#1217
On September 14 2011 14:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 14 2011 14:06 qrs wrote:
On September 14 2011 12:46 Ikari wrote:
9. Bxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
I feel that castling in this position loses our tempo.

Consider 9.0-0 Bxd2 10.Bxd2 Bd7, and black has eliminated the threat of a NxN trade.
At the very least, we can cross that bridge when we come to it. + Show Spoiler +
After 9. 0-0 Bxd2, we're free to play 10. Bxc6+
That's my question for everybody voting for 9. Bxc6: what do you see that makes you think it has to be this move? Unless Black plays + Show Spoiler +
9. 0-0 Bd7 (or, technically, Qd7)
we retain the ability to play this move later on. If Black does play that move, we can respond with + Show Spoiler +
10. NxN
and I think we have the advantage. So why force things before we have to?


The tactics are not the same if we castle first:
+ Show Spoiler +
Allowing black to castle significantly changes the tactics involved.

1) After Qa4, the c-pawn is no longer pinned. Black can play c5, defending his bishop, removing his pawn from attack, and undermining our pawn center. We can perhaps still win a pawn here after dxc5, but the position does not seem as favorable as playing Bxc6+ first.

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 c5

[image loading]


2) Because we won't be capturing the c-pawn with check, black now doesn't have to exchange queens. He can play for example:

9. O-O O-O 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qa4 Rb8 12. Qxc6 Rb6 13. Qc2 Bf5

[image loading]


3) Part of the strength of the Bxd2 line above is that we can threaten to occupy the a3- f8 diagonal, preventing black from castling. Black's c-pawn is hanging and he can't meet both threats at the same time:

[image loading]


Perhaps there are alternate moves for either side that are better. In either case, the position is less clear and less forcing, and seems to offer black better chances imo.
You make some good points. I'm going to reconsider my vote. For now, changing to abstain.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25563 Posts
September 14 2011 06:19 GMT
#1218
We've waited far too long to do this. My vote is
9. O-O
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
September 14 2011 06:28 GMT
#1219
On September 14 2011 15:19 Blazinghand wrote:
We've waited far too long to do this. My vote is
9. O-O


Blazinghand, what's become of you? Have you lost your fire? The eye of the tiger?

I remember not just a few weeks ago you were saying...


On August 08 2011 07:28 Blazinghand wrote:
1 e4 e5
should go into
2. f4

The King's Gambit is baller as dicks and we should go with it. Although 2. Nf3 is the highest-rated response in terms of victory. 2.f4 is the highest-rated response in terms of balling and being basically a baller. So I recommend we ball all day erry day and go for the King's Gambit like the ballers we are.


I say black has waited far too long to not castle... The best defense is a strong offense, the time to strike is now, like the ballers we are!

"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 14 2011 07:07 GMT
#1220
9. Bxc6+

+ Show Spoiler +
I looked at 9. Qa4 and wasn't satisfied with how easily Black can get out of it. But By taking Bishop first, it creates a weakness in black's pawn structure. Additionally, we can follow it up with 10. Qa4 which defeats the outpost for black's knight (10...Bxd2+ 11. Nxd2 and the Knight is forced away or 10...Rb8 11. 0-0 which also leads to the knight moved away).

As far as 9. 0-0 goes, I think it kinda is a less aggressive move that lets black have an extra turn to prepare against a Bxc6 type move. Although after castling, it's gonna be very hard for black to maintain his pawn structure and his e4 knight. But like I've said before, I like to play more aggresive than most people.
Write your own song!
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10. Elazer
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4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
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