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NBA Offseason 2012 - Page 58

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Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
July 21 2012 12:19 GMT
#1141
On July 21 2012 16:25 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Interesting read regarding Lin with an angle that I haven't seen discussed so far: http://www.gq.com/blogs/the-q/2012/07/the-jeremy-lin-debate-no-one-wants-to-have.html

I have to admit that it feels like there may be some truth to it.


It was pretty weird hearing JR Smith and Melo go off about Lin's contract, for sure, heh.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
AntiGrav1ty
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2310 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-21 15:42:45
July 21 2012 13:40 GMT
#1142
No player ever comments about another player's contract in a bad way even if it were nothing but ridiculous. There are tons of crippling contracts and overpaid players out there but this was the first time that i have ever seen that. Further cements my perception of melo and JR.
www.twitch.tv/antigrav1ty
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
July 21 2012 17:05 GMT
#1143
i'm not convinced that Lin is a good fit with melo in the first place, this works out for both lin and the Knicks. With The Knicks' improved defense, they didn't need Lin when melo is playing well down the stretch of last season, and Lin didn't need Melo during his run. The constant here is Tyson Chandler and that Knicks' defense.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
MassHysteria
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3678 Posts
July 21 2012 17:18 GMT
#1144
On July 21 2012 21:19 Southlight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 21 2012 16:25 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Interesting read regarding Lin with an angle that I haven't seen discussed so far: http://www.gq.com/blogs/the-q/2012/07/the-jeremy-lin-debate-no-one-wants-to-have.html

I have to admit that it feels like there may be some truth to it.


It was pretty weird hearing JR Smith and Melo go off about Lin's contract, for sure, heh.

Yeah, true. The first thing I thought was: well if NY wasn't sure what to do before, this might have just tipped the scale lol. Definitely speaking out-of-turn by them, whether on purpose or not.
"Just ban all the J's...even jinklejoes" --unnamed source
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
July 23 2012 15:51 GMT
#1145
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/7/23/3173543/nba-summer-league-2012-rankings-rookies-damian-lillard

this is a pretty good run down of the rookie showings at summer league. i don't agree with the overly positive reviews of some of the top spots because hey, this is only summer league, but it reads as a good scouting report.
starleague forever
MassHysteria
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3678 Posts
July 23 2012 18:36 GMT
#1146
A pretty interesting look into not going the "bottom out/tank" approach by using the Nuggets as an example in the coming years. http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/07/23/denver-nuggets-offseason/?sct=nba_t12_a0
"Just ban all the J's...even jinklejoes" --unnamed source
kiy0
Profile Joined August 2010
Portugal593 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-24 01:00:11
July 24 2012 00:59 GMT
#1147
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8193410/sources-orlando-magic-keep-dwight-howard-now

Apparently Rob Hennigan is trying to pull a big fat bluff on other teams so that they'd be tempted to offer a little more for Howard. This is a cleaver move, though I don't think it will do them any good. The way I see it, they are trying a last desperate measure to get a few more out of this before they ultimately trade him in February to Brooklyn for Lopez, Humphries, Brooks and a buttload of draft picks.
Wisemen speak when they have something to say. Others speak when they have to say something.
x2fst
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
1272 Posts
July 24 2012 11:10 GMT
#1148
"ridiculous" was clearly a reference to the cap loophole that allows teams to construct "poison pill" style contracts that fuck over teams with restricted free agents. melo would have had similar comments if steve novak were offered a similarly structured deal

the melo and jr = wasis angle has been pushed multiple times before, and it might be true on some level. but that article is retarded
muda, is a crime for me to wear a shirt, cos I is so good lookin
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-24 11:49:37
July 24 2012 11:45 GMT
#1149
On July 24 2012 20:10 x2fst wrote:
"ridiculous" was clearly a reference to the cap loophole that allows teams to construct "poison pill" style contracts that fuck over teams with restricted free agents. melo would have had similar comments if steve novak were offered a similarly structured deal

the melo and jr = wasis angle has been pushed multiple times before, and it might be true on some level. but that article is retarded


It is bound to be controversial for sure, but this part for sure is true:


I'm doing more mind-reading here with Dolan—never a safe proposition. But here's what I am confident saying about Dolan on the subject of Lin's ethnicity: he has absolutely no grasp of what Jeremy Lin really means as a cultural phenomenon. It does not pierce his bubble. It stirs no emotion in him. He doesn't understand what it means for millions of people in this country, and around the world, to watch the first Asian-American superstar athlete excel on the highest stage, and what it means to have that player wearing the uniform of his team. The pride, the joy, the inspiration, the transformative effect it can have on an entire generation of kids.

That stuff is real. It only becomes hokey when people like me try to capture it with words on a page. If Dolan got that, he never would've let the Lin situation unravel over scratch money (to him, anyway) and petty animus. He would've sat the kid down, talked it out, buried the hatchet. And then he would've signed the deal.


It is real. People see this guy as our Jackie Robinson. Would you just let Jackie Robinson go for free? Asians in America are constantly looked down upon as unathletic nerds and to have an Asian-American Harvard grad light up the NBA makes him something of a hero. He's not some freak of nature - he looks just like the tallish friend we had in high school and had the exact same upbringing.

If you don't believe me about that stereotyping just bleeding into people's perceptions of Asian athletes, just read the initial reports about Lin. Why is he "deceptively explosive" or "surprisingly athletic." Oh yeah, he's Asian. He was also initially bashed for being small and weak, but then people realized that he is actually big and heavy for his position. Whoops. Other examples include: before the World Cup, reports on South Korea's team would say their weakness maybe their physical side, even though they were taller on average than Team USA. You can see the same reports right now in the reports of Korea's Olympic soccer team.

Nobody MEANS to be racist or prejudice in today's world (well, most everybody). So these type of articles are not saying that it is malicious or planned racism, but just pointing out that there may be some underlying prejudice that helped nudge these decisions along. And I think its a point worth discussing.
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
July 24 2012 12:14 GMT
#1150
On July 24 2012 00:51 a176 wrote:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/7/23/3173543/nba-summer-league-2012-rankings-rookies-damian-lillard

this is a pretty good run down of the rookie showings at summer league. i don't agree with the overly positive reviews of some of the top spots because hey, this is only summer league, but it reads as a good scouting report.


I'm so happy we drafted Lillard haha.
Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-24 12:30:14
July 24 2012 12:28 GMT
#1151
I don't think its wrong to call him small and weak, he was playing more of a 2 role on the warriors. he eventually shifted to a point guard under mike dantoni, where he excelled.

and a lot of black, or white, players have been defined as 'deceptively explosive' (paul pierce) and 'surprisingly athletic' (carmelo) it'd a way to describe a body type, and lin fits that.


I think you are grasping at straws looking for racism here. pretty sure the only reason he was given as many chances as he did, cut from two rosters, is because he is asian. do i need to mention that the bay area, houstan, and the knicks all have large asian populations? he had a huge following in the bay area before linsanity. the cultural knife cuts both ways, and its definitely cut in lins favour almost every time. unless, of course you think he deserves 25m over 3 years for his basketball skills.
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
Klogon
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
MURICA15980 Posts
July 24 2012 13:19 GMT
#1152
And I guess being the first ever California High School Player of the Year to not get a Div 1 college scholarship is a clear example of his Asian heritage cutting toward his favor, right?

That stuff about his past has been beat to death but to say that him being Asian gave him an advantage every step of the way in his career is seriously LOL worthy and not worth debating. Sorry. It only helped after he became a star. Before hand? Not a chance. Nobody likes a loser - Asians included - and a loser will not bring in marketing dollars. Sorry.
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13007 Posts
July 24 2012 13:21 GMT
#1153
On July 24 2012 03:36 MassHysteria wrote:
A pretty interesting look into not going the "bottom out/tank" approach by using the Nuggets as an example in the coming years. http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/07/23/denver-nuggets-offseason/?sct=nba_t12_a0


Pretty flaky article. Too many "what-ifs" in there to really take it seriously. Denver's a competitive team, but that's about it. Fact is they were a better team with Melo on the roster. They got good value on him before he left but it was a lateral move at best for the team. If they could nab a star they'd be an instant contender but fact is they're nowhere near bad enough to draft one via the lotto and if they did happen to land one via trade they'd have to gut many of their best assets.

Unfortunate fact in the NBA is unglamourous small market teams don't get stars unless it's via the draft.

Contrary to popular belief, I actually do hate tanking and it's rampant spread in the NBA. But until the system changes, it's the only way for some teams to get the stars they need to win.

Which brings me to another point. I was having a chat with someone the other day about how the NBA could go a long way to reducing tanking: eliminate max contracts. Keep the cap the way it is but eliminate max contracts so we can see what stars are really worth on the open market.

Anyone else think it would even things up a lot in the NBA?
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
TieN.nS)
Profile Joined August 2003
United States2131 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-24 14:13:37
July 24 2012 13:43 GMT
#1154
On July 24 2012 21:28 Holcan wrote:
I don't think its wrong to call him small and weak, he was playing more of a 2 role on the warriors. he eventually shifted to a point guard under mike dantoni, where he excelled.

and a lot of black, or white, players have been defined as 'deceptively explosive' (paul pierce) and 'surprisingly athletic' (carmelo) it'd a way to describe a body type, and lin fits that.


I think you are grasping at straws looking for racism here. pretty sure the only reason he was given as many chances as he did, cut from two rosters, is because he is asian. do i need to mention that the bay area, houstan, and the knicks all have large asian populations? he had a huge following in the bay area before linsanity. the cultural knife cuts both ways, and its definitely cut in lins favour almost every time. unless, of course you think he deserves 25m over 3 years for his basketball skills.


I don't even know how to respond to this terrible post. Sure, even though he had explosive games against Boston College and UConn his senior year and helped Harvard set multiple school records, it's still the Ivy League and there's a reason Harvard hasn't had an NBA player in nearly 60 years. But care to explain to me why he was offered not a single D1 scholarship offer after leading his team to an upset of perennial powerhouse Mater Dei en route to a California state title in 2006, earning first team All-State and CIF Division II player of the year honors? Why no team even thought about drafting him when he was consistently strong and showed flashes of greatness in college and was first-team All-Ivy, and a finalist for the Bob Cousy Award? After an entire college career and draft process passed by, he got lucky and had the Mavs pick him up for their summer league team where he outplayed John Wall, the top pick in that same draft, and finally got some attention. Obviously having one highlight-worthy game in summer league doesn't mean that you're NBA ready, but in a league that places inordinate emphasis on upside, why is it that a player that shows so much of it gets passed over time and time again and eventually has to be thankful to accept a minimum deal to be a mascot for his hometown team?

To say that race cuts in his favor every time is asinine when IVY LEAGUE college opponents taunted him every game calling him a chink and every analyst in sports media gives him those subtle jabs -- P2 and Melo are deceptive athletes because THEY LOOK FAT -- hidden among the praise. Of course he was a fan favorite in the bay area, that's where he grew up and won a state championship. OK, maybe he doesn't "deserve" a fat NBA contract even though he's shown he can potentially play at an all-star level; after all, he's only played significant minutes in 1/3 of a lockout season. But if race has nothing to do with his being repeatedly underrated and overlooked, why is it that he's almost exclusively compared to white point guards and he's touted as "deceptively athletic" as a 6'3" 200 lb point guard with a world-class first step? Sure, those ridiculous comparisons to all-time great point guards like Steve Nash and John Stockton should be both flattering to Lin and insulting to the HOF point guards, but aside from being sensationalist, they also didn't make sense when you look at their body types. If it was just meant as a compliment on his "high basketball IQ" and aptitude in pick and roll situations, why didn't he garner any comparisons to Chris Paul? You bring up him being cut twice as if it says anything about his performance in the league up to this point. Linsanity blew up the way it did because it seemingly came out of nowhere. But in the modern sports era, how is that even possible? At some point in practice he must've shown signs and should have been given minutes to nurture his emerging talent. Instead he got no burn in his two years in the league and only got his shot due to injuries to Bibby, Davis, and Douglas. If the cultural knife cuts in his favor, why is it that he was the fourth-string point guard in an NBA city with one one of the highest Asian-American populations?

You're right that he's getting paid now in large part because of his international marketing appeal. But why don't you tell me what's so ridiculous about an $8M/yr contract? That's on par with Rodney Stuckey, Dragic, Devin Harris, and George Hill, and certainly his on-court performance alone (if he's able to keep it up over an 82-game season) warrants that level of pay. The only issue with his contract is the poison pill back-loaded 3rd year, which is the only way that a team could pry him away from the Knicks (and really, there's still no good reason that the already horribly over-the-cap Knicks shouldn't have matched); plus, for a starter caliber point guard, he's underpaid in those first two years anyway and the large expiring the last year only makes him more of an asset. I'm having trouble thinking of another instance of current NBA players criticizing a fellow player (and in this case, it's two teammates doing it) for getting paid -- can you? I don't recall Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, or Joe Johnson catching any flak for the stupidity of their front offices. If it's strictly meant as commentary on the back-loaded poison pill contracts, why didn't anyone say anything about Omer Asik's signing?

At the end of the day, Lin's shown he can play. If you think his race helped him get to where he is now, you're crazy. He's finally found a place in the NBA in spite of his race because he got insanely lucky and blew up into a global phenomenon. Make no mistake about it, the odds were heavily stacked against him from the start and if you run it back, 99 out of 100 times he gets washed out of the league before he gets his shot. But sure, now that he's actually made it, it helps.

As an aside though, comparing Lin to Jackie Robinson is insulting. I get why people say that but while 2012 isn't quite "post-racial America," it's certainly not pre-Civil Rights Era America either.
AntiGrav1ty
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2310 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-24 14:18:04
July 24 2012 14:09 GMT
#1155
Tien laying down the truth. Agree with pretty much everything you said
www.twitch.tv/antigrav1ty
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
July 24 2012 14:30 GMT
#1156
--- Nuked ---
MassHysteria
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3678 Posts
July 24 2012 16:30 GMT
#1157
On July 24 2012 22:21 RowdierBob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2012 03:36 MassHysteria wrote:
A pretty interesting look into not going the "bottom out/tank" approach by using the Nuggets as an example in the coming years. http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/07/23/denver-nuggets-offseason/?sct=nba_t12_a0


Pretty flaky article. Too many "what-ifs" in there to really take it seriously. Denver's a competitive team, but that's about it. Fact is they were a better team with Melo on the roster. They got good value on him before he left but it was a lateral move at best for the team. If they could nab a star they'd be an instant contender but fact is they're nowhere near bad enough to draft one via the lotto and if they did happen to land one via trade they'd have to gut many of their best assets.

Unfortunate fact in the NBA is unglamourous small market teams don't get stars unless it's via the draft.

Contrary to popular belief, I actually do hate tanking and it's rampant spread in the NBA. But until the system changes, it's the only way for some teams to get the stars they need to win.

Which brings me to another point. I was having a chat with someone the other day about how the NBA could go a long way to reducing tanking: eliminate max contracts. Keep the cap the way it is but eliminate max contracts so we can see what stars are really worth on the open market.

Anyone else think it would even things up a lot in the NBA?

There are definitely what-ifs but I think you are missing the point somewhat in which he means that there are significant what-ifs in tanking as well, if not more (his points on the odds are great, I will not repeat them). Plus, he gave a few advantages in the present time by not tanking (still in playoff hunt, have younger players who are still developing -lawson, gallinari-, and you never know how far they can go in the playoffs with the help of injuries and luck.) There are always what-ifs when discussing strategy though.

You said "if they could nab a star they'd be an instant contender" and obviously that is what they want themselves as Karl was quoted in the piece. The difference is they are going with a different philosphy than the teams who choose to bottom out because they can't nab a star. When there are too many teams looking to bottom-out and there are elite teams which you know are contenders a tier above you for the next 4-5 years, sometimes a new approach could be worth it. Is the article saying this is going to pay off? Not at all. Lowe isn't even arguing this is a good idea, it is more of a wait-and-see how it turns out approach, which is what is really interesting of this to me: The next few years for DEN.

If there was ever a time to try the kind of approach which the article suggests Denver is trying, then this would the right time. With the CBA changes to the league, a lot of teams will be looking to unload players that they know they will not be able to resign or can't afford anymore (to resign a younger player, etc) and DEN is trying to smeagle a way into those conversations. It has yet to work or happen and there are definite questions but I am interested to see where this approach takes them compared to other teams. An "experiment" sort of lol.

As for eliminating the max contract, the problem is that the CBA functions as a whole. So to change max contracts, makes it so that everything in the CBA has to be revisited and changed so that it fits this new system. The most basic example of this example is that eliminating max contracts would then lead to no salary caps. No one wants to be the guy to sign Kobe for 40-45million annually and only have 30 million left to spend b/c of the salary cap. It is not as simple as changing just one aspect of the CBA b/c it all fits together. Side-note: I actually think this CBA will do a good job for people wanting "parity". People are expecting results too quickly though after the CBA though and saying it didn't work, when the effects aren't really fully seen until ~5 years later.
"Just ban all the J's...even jinklejoes" --unnamed source
XaI)CyRiC
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4471 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-24 17:59:45
July 24 2012 17:59 GMT
#1158
On July 24 2012 22:43 TieN.nS) wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 24 2012 21:28 Holcan wrote:
I don't think its wrong to call him small and weak, he was playing more of a 2 role on the warriors. he eventually shifted to a point guard under mike dantoni, where he excelled.

and a lot of black, or white, players have been defined as 'deceptively explosive' (paul pierce) and 'surprisingly athletic' (carmelo) it'd a way to describe a body type, and lin fits that.


I think you are grasping at straws looking for racism here. pretty sure the only reason he was given as many chances as he did, cut from two rosters, is because he is asian. do i need to mention that the bay area, houstan, and the knicks all have large asian populations? he had a huge following in the bay area before linsanity. the cultural knife cuts both ways, and its definitely cut in lins favour almost every time. unless, of course you think he deserves 25m over 3 years for his basketball skills.


I don't even know how to respond to this terrible post. Sure, even though he had explosive games against Boston College and UConn his senior year and helped Harvard set multiple school records, it's still the Ivy League and there's a reason Harvard hasn't had an NBA player in nearly 60 years. But care to explain to me why he was offered not a single D1 scholarship offer after leading his team to an upset of perennial powerhouse Mater Dei en route to a California state title in 2006, earning first team All-State and CIF Division II player of the year honors? Why no team even thought about drafting him when he was consistently strong and showed flashes of greatness in college and was first-team All-Ivy, and a finalist for the Bob Cousy Award? After an entire college career and draft process passed by, he got lucky and had the Mavs pick him up for their summer league team where he outplayed John Wall, the top pick in that same draft, and finally got some attention. Obviously having one highlight-worthy game in summer league doesn't mean that you're NBA ready, but in a league that places inordinate emphasis on upside, why is it that a player that shows so much of it gets passed over time and time again and eventually has to be thankful to accept a minimum deal to be a mascot for his hometown team?

To say that race cuts in his favor every time is asinine when IVY LEAGUE college opponents taunted him every game calling him a chink and every analyst in sports media gives him those subtle jabs -- P2 and Melo are deceptive athletes because THEY LOOK FAT -- hidden among the praise. Of course he was a fan favorite in the bay area, that's where he grew up and won a state championship. OK, maybe he doesn't "deserve" a fat NBA contract even though he's shown he can potentially play at an all-star level; after all, he's only played significant minutes in 1/3 of a lockout season. But if race has nothing to do with his being repeatedly underrated and overlooked, why is it that he's almost exclusively compared to white point guards and he's touted as "deceptively athletic" as a 6'3" 200 lb point guard with a world-class first step? Sure, those ridiculous comparisons to all-time great point guards like Steve Nash and John Stockton should be both flattering to Lin and insulting to the HOF point guards, but aside from being sensationalist, they also didn't make sense when you look at their body types. If it was just meant as a compliment on his "high basketball IQ" and aptitude in pick and roll situations, why didn't he garner any comparisons to Chris Paul? You bring up him being cut twice as if it says anything about his performance in the league up to this point. Linsanity blew up the way it did because it seemingly came out of nowhere. But in the modern sports era, how is that even possible? At some point in practice he must've shown signs and should have been given minutes to nurture his emerging talent. Instead he got no burn in his two years in the league and only got his shot due to injuries to Bibby, Davis, and Douglas. If the cultural knife cuts in his favor, why is it that he was the fourth-string point guard in an NBA city with one one of the highest Asian-American populations?

You're right that he's getting paid now in large part because of his international marketing appeal. But why don't you tell me what's so ridiculous about an $8M/yr contract? That's on par with Rodney Stuckey, Dragic, Devin Harris, and George Hill, and certainly his on-court performance alone (if he's able to keep it up over an 82-game season) warrants that level of pay. The only issue with his contract is the poison pill back-loaded 3rd year, which is the only way that a team could pry him away from the Knicks (and really, there's still no good reason that the already horribly over-the-cap Knicks shouldn't have matched); plus, for a starter caliber point guard, he's underpaid in those first two years anyway and the large expiring the last year only makes him more of an asset. I'm having trouble thinking of another instance of current NBA players criticizing a fellow player (and in this case, it's two teammates doing it) for getting paid -- can you? I don't recall Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, or Joe Johnson catching any flak for the stupidity of their front offices. If it's strictly meant as commentary on the back-loaded poison pill contracts, why didn't anyone say anything about Omer Asik's signing?

At the end of the day, Lin's shown he can play. If you think his race helped him get to where he is now, you're crazy. He's finally found a place in the NBA in spite of his race because he got insanely lucky and blew up into a global phenomenon. Make no mistake about it, the odds were heavily stacked against him from the start and if you run it back, 99 out of 100 times he gets washed out of the league before he gets his shot. But sure, now that he's actually made it, it helps.

As an aside though, comparing Lin to Jackie Robinson is insulting. I get why people say that but while 2012 isn't quite "post-racial America," it's certainly not pre-Civil Rights Era America either.


Great post. Never saw that link regarding Lin's athletic measurements, particularly his speed recordings. Funny that no one has brought up the fact that he's one of the quickest guards in the league when discussing him, particularly when it comes to justifying his current contract.
Moderator
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
July 24 2012 18:29 GMT
#1159
ouch Holcan, you got owned lol.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
MassHysteria
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3678 Posts
July 24 2012 19:27 GMT
#1160
Ya that was a good link. Further down that link someone linked the rest of the data from the BAM score. http://thebamboxscore.com/2012/03/09/the-linside-point-guard-review/
"Just ban all the J's...even jinklejoes" --unnamed source
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