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NBA Offseason 2012 - Page 56

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ecstatica
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States542 Posts
July 19 2012 23:14 GMT
#1101
On July 20 2012 05:49 Holcan wrote:
boston got lee??? yes !! if we get pietrus too, omg.


The bench is looking insane. When you add Pietrus it becomes outright ridiculous: KG, Bass, Pierce, Bradley, Rondo, Terry, Green, Lee, Wilcox, Sullinger, Melo, Pietrus? What kind of ridiculous defense is this 1 through 12? Bass and possibly one of the rooks are the only "liabilities" here. Celtics is going to become like the most hated team to go vs lol
NeMeSiS3, Portlandian, Reason,
Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
July 19 2012 23:28 GMT
#1102
I would be more excited for kris joseph than fab melo, but rookies don't mean shit until we see them play in the league, and melo probably won't play anything but garbage minutes, plus he is dumb as bricks, and the celtics run a high iq offense and defense.
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
July 19 2012 23:32 GMT
#1103
He's good in zone ^_^
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
XaI)CyRiC
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4471 Posts
July 19 2012 23:34 GMT
#1104
On July 20 2012 08:14 ecstatica wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 05:49 Holcan wrote:
boston got lee??? yes !! if we get pietrus too, omg.


The bench is looking insane. When you add Pietrus it becomes outright ridiculous: KG, Bass, Pierce, Bradley, Rondo, Terry, Green, Lee, Wilcox, Sullinger, Melo, Pietrus? What kind of ridiculous defense is this 1 through 12? Bass and possibly one of the rooks are the only "liabilities" here. Celtics is going to become like the most hated team to go vs lol


I'm going to have to admit that I'm not all that familiar with the BOS lineup since it changed so much last season, but is that an impressive defensive roster on paper? Out of those names listed, the only ones that immediately jump out at me as guys known for good defense are KG, Bradley, Rondo, and Lee, with Pierce, Green, and Pietrus as average to above-average. That starting lineup will be scary on defense as it was this past season, but I'm curious about your "1 through 12" comment.

I do agree that the Celtics appear to have done a pretty good job this offseason. Maybe another backup big since I believe they envision using Green as more of a SF than PF?
Moderator
Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
July 19 2012 23:38 GMT
#1105
basketball is changing to the point where a lineup of rondo, bradley, pierce, green, garnett will almost be forced to utilize against the small ball lineup that miami throws out. green being a tweener will help in that regard. always need a backup big, but they are too expensive ob the market for their actual worth. small ball is the way the game is going, except for the lakers, that is.
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
XaI)CyRiC
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4471 Posts
July 19 2012 23:58 GMT
#1106
Random thought. Anyone else think that Brandon Bass and Jeff Green kinda look alike? Came to mind when I was thinking about who BOS would use to guard Lebron.
Moderator
XaI)CyRiC
Profile Joined October 2002
United States4471 Posts
July 20 2012 00:02 GMT
#1107
[image loading][image loading]

[image loading][image loading]
Moderator
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13007 Posts
July 20 2012 00:10 GMT
#1108
Draft picks are absolutely essential for any small market team to succeed. In fact, it's pretty much the only way they'll become relevant.

I challenge anyone to prove otherwise!

The big market teams have so many intangibles in their favour (that you can't legislate against) that pretty much prohibits a small market team ever being able to make a big trade/FA signing. They have to draft well to succeed.

Which brings me to a question: should the NBA get rid of max contracts? I'm a firm believer in the yes corner.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
ecstatica
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States542 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 00:19:19
July 20 2012 00:16 GMT
#1109
On July 20 2012 08:28 Holcan wrote:
I would be more excited for kris joseph than fab melo, but rookies don't mean shit until we see them play in the league, and melo probably won't play anything but garbage minutes, plus he is dumb as bricks, and the celtics run a high iq offense and defense.


Seeing how we always utilize backup centers no matter how ludicrous they are (Murphy, Semih, Hollins and whoever else was available) since they are hard to get (as you just mentioned in the post above) I'm willing to bet Fab Melo is going to play some minutes throughout the season, unless he's a complete bust and can't secure a rebound.

I'm sure Joseph will see some action as well but it is a long reach for him to play SF outside of garbage time given this roster (esp if Pietrus does come back)


On July 20 2012 08:34 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 08:14 ecstatica wrote:
On July 20 2012 05:49 Holcan wrote:
boston got lee??? yes !! if we get pietrus too, omg.


The bench is looking insane. When you add Pietrus it becomes outright ridiculous: KG, Bass, Pierce, Bradley, Rondo, Terry, Green, Lee, Wilcox, Sullinger, Melo, Pietrus? What kind of ridiculous defense is this 1 through 12? Bass and possibly one of the rooks are the only "liabilities" here. Celtics is going to become like the most hated team to go vs lol


I'm going to have to admit that I'm not all that familiar with the BOS lineup since it changed so much last season, but is that an impressive defensive roster on paper? Out of those names listed, the only ones that immediately jump out at me as guys known for good defense are KG, Bradley, Rondo, and Lee, with Pierce, Green, and Pietrus as average to above-average. That starting lineup will be scary on defense as it was this past season, but I'm curious about your "1 through 12" comment.

I do agree that the Celtics appear to have done a pretty good job this offseason. Maybe another backup big since I believe they envision using Green as more of a SF than PF?


Pietrus is an elite defender, not sure if his knee injury will change that since it's his second in 2 years. Pierce is deteriorating rapidly but he is not the weak spot if you're looking for one (maybe for Lebron he is, but who isn't). I'd say Terry is average at least, Sullinger is looking real good so far and Melo is just another body. So when I say 1 through 12 I don't imply all 12 elite defenders but rather lack of obvious liabilities (Ray was one of them, Bass was another but showing constant improvement) When your bench is perfectly capable of defending starters it has to have a major impact on every game
NeMeSiS3, Portlandian, Reason,
ecstatica
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States542 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 00:34:02
July 20 2012 00:33 GMT
#1110
On July 20 2012 09:02 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]

[image loading]
[image loading]



Meh, never noticed it before, somehow they look a bit similar on these pics but I doubt anyone actually made this mistake before
NeMeSiS3, Portlandian, Reason,
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
July 20 2012 00:38 GMT
#1111
On July 20 2012 05:49 Holcan wrote:
boston got lee??? yes !! if we get pietrus too, omg.

That roster is looking scary defensively if kg can keep it up. The offense doesn't look all that scary though.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
MassHysteria
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3678 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 01:43:34
July 20 2012 01:17 GMT
#1112
On July 20 2012 06:34 XaI)CyRiC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On July 20 2012 04:34 MassHysteria wrote:
Sorry to go back to Lin and Knicks but had something similar to this to post yesterday and deleted it by accident (again -_-) and started this way earlier today, got distracted, and finally got to finish it; so feel free to skip post if you are over the subject but..

I just hope some good writers come out defending the Knicks decision today or in coming days. All the bad press they got yesterday was so overblown imo, same as the writers who said stuff about Lin. I didn't even know about it until after I posted on here yesterday as I hadn't read any sports news yet. Media trying to exagerrate about owner's feelings and people being butthurt is just funny tho. I would think these people understand that business is business and people dealing at that high of a level understand it better than anyone, and they know it wouldn't be wise to do that.


Agree that the amount of backlash the Knicks and Dolan got may have been excessive, but it didn't come from nowhere. This is an organization and owner who have well-established reputations and histories for poor-to-terrible decisions in one of the largest media outlets in the world who were letting a valuable player that virtually everyone considers to be a hugely valuable asset slip away for nothing. Even if they didn't feel he fit their team going forward, they should have planned things out better and gotten something back for him.

I also don't know that it's outrageous to suggest that part of the decision may have been based on Dolan's feelings or him letting things get personal. He's known for letting his own feelings or opinions get the better of him in business decisions. This article by Simmons discusses some of it: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/32425/sports-guy-vault-the-james-dolan-theory Plus, there were too many reports from different sources about how the Knicks and/or Dolan were upset or felt insulted by how things happened for it to have been completely untrue.

People could argue it either way, but the truth is Lin is just a mid-tier player who doesn't justify that amount of money. He isn't the difference between the Knicks being 1st or 2nd rounders to championship contenders. Around 30 to 45 million for the third year of Lin is not smart, and in 2 years people would be saying how stupid the Knicks were to match that "ridiculous" contract. It's not about his bird or non-bird rights or being under the cap, it is about the luxury tax looming in the future. I know losing "lightning in a bottle" hurts, but it was actually a smart move. Too bad the Knicks chose a bad time and such a hyped, beloved player to finally be smart with their money.


The key for me is that the first two years of Lin's deal were very reasonable and maybe even a bit of a steal for what he brought to the team both on and off the court. You can't really measure the feelings and excitement that he brought to the franchise, the testimonials and comments from Knicks fans really made him out to be a giant breath of fresh air and something to root for. Plus, there's the value of the positive impact he brought to the team by being such a perfect PR figure, which helped to balance out the poor PR the rest of the team had. For $5M/yr, that was great value IMO. That's not even factoring in the fact that he has demonstrated an incredible ceiling of play during Linsanity, and at least had the potential to be more than just an average PG. Felton and Kidd are topped out at what they are, and it's not impressive. Why not go with the option that at least gives you the chance at a player who could play a significant role in contending?

When you get to the third year, I agree that it becomes ridiculous and much harder to accept. But that was something that the Knicks wouldn't have had to deal with for two whole years, during which they could see what they had and plan around. As has been mentioned by many sources, the Knicks had a lot of ways to lessen the blow of a worst case scenario. And let's be clear, anything less than a worst case scenario would still have been a positive for the Knicks in their situation. They had and have no other good means to add appreciable assets to their roster, Lin was unique due to that lucky Bird rights ruling that allowed them to resign him without giving anything else up. This is not even addressing the abundance of money the Knicks/Dolan have at their disposal which they clearly had no problem overspending on other just as questionable expenditures.

As for the "stretch provision", it is not a good sign for the Knicks if they are debating this and they are just about to sign the player. It should be a fallback option, as like a plan C or D in case of injuries and then you have to suddenly rebuild, etc. Not as an out you are seriously considering 2 years early, before even signing the player. Besides, the provision won't exactly help them out with how much they have to spend on him in total for just that year, it just helps spread it out into 3 years and helps out their cap. I am going to guess and say the "stretch provision" prob also has a limit on how often it can be used, so if they end up using it on Lin, they would lose it for a while. So being able to use it on a player who got injured and/or has a longer contract than 1 year left (a smarter move) is out the window.
edit: clarification


The "stretch provision" was only ever supposed to be a way to lessen the blow of a worst case scenario in which Lin bottomed out completely and lost all value. Linsanity has made Lin into a desirable asset to other teams beyond what he brings to the court, so he'd have to regress pretty dramatically for him to suddenly become untradeable, particularly as a large expiring contract (which he would've been in that third year due to the fourth year being a team option). Think about that. Worst case scenarion, the Knicks are left with a huge expiring contract (always very desirable to teams) on a player with a built-in billion-large audience that no other teams have access to.

The only reason the "stretch provision" came into the picture was because the Knicks were indicating that they were considering not matching the Rockets' offer due to financial reasons. It wasn't discussed initially as a way of justifying such a move. I haven't read anything about possible limitations on the amount of times a team can use a "stretch provision", so I assume there is none. The only limitation I've read is that it can only apply to "new contracts", which I assume is any that is signed since the signed the most recent CBA.

There are some things I don't necesarrily agree with here but instead of answering myself I actually think the ESPN "Six Degrees of Separation" six-sided story did a pretty good job, which I just found right now so don't know what time it came out. I only read chapters 5 and 6 so far ( The Financials and The Poison Pill) but they do a pretty good job explaining the Knicks side. Haven't read the other pieces tho, prob will right now in bit.

edit:chapter 6 good too..overall pleasantly surprised by ESPN reporting on tthat! (well last 3 stories lol).

edit2: I like Boston's move for Lee. If they get Pietrus or Delfino (heard him being discussed) now, it won't really matter too much b/c they will have some nice depth. Nice offseason so far.
"Just ban all the J's...even jinklejoes" --unnamed source
Existential
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia2107 Posts
July 20 2012 02:41 GMT
#1113
On July 20 2012 09:02 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]

[image loading]
[image loading]


Hmm.... don't see it..
Jaedong <3 | BW - The first game I ever loved
Tiegrr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States607 Posts
July 20 2012 02:42 GMT
#1114
On July 20 2012 11:41 Existential wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 09:02 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]

[image loading]
[image loading]


Hmm.... don't see it..

Me neither.
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
July 20 2012 02:49 GMT
#1115
On July 20 2012 11:41 Existential wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 09:02 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]

[image loading]
[image loading]


Hmm.... don't see it..

I don't see it either.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-20 03:05:31
July 20 2012 03:04 GMT
#1116
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/full-qanda-with-wizards-and-capitals-owner-ted-leonsis/2012/07/19/gJQA3ALmwW_print.html

Good interview with Ted Leonsis :>

I’ll tell you a lesson I learned 10 years ago with Ron Wilson and Adam Oates. I’ll never forget this. Adam Oates was the [quarterback] of our power play. Adam didn’t even know he was doing it, but he would put his skate up against the wall and bring that skate down and then get that pass. When the [power play] became not productive, he stopped doing that, and he was collecting the puck just a little further away, seven or eight inches away, from the half board.

The entire geometry of the ice changed, six or seven inches. Ron Wilson showed him, I remember, and said, ‘Just do that: Put your skate against the board.’ The power play came back. So that to me, as an owner, was the first indication that a little thing reviewed, fixed, coached can have unbelievable, big positive impact.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19349 Posts
July 20 2012 04:29 GMT
#1117
[image loading]
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
GARO
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2255 Posts
July 20 2012 04:34 GMT
#1118
Needs a Felton comment to be complete imo.
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
July 20 2012 04:46 GMT
#1119
On July 20 2012 13:29 icystorage wrote:
[image loading]

That was good, and sounds depressingly realistic.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
Chunhyang
Profile Joined December 2011
Bangladesh1389 Posts
July 20 2012 15:26 GMT
#1120
On July 20 2012 10:17 MassHysteria wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2012 06:34 XaI)CyRiC wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On July 20 2012 04:34 MassHysteria wrote:
Sorry to go back to Lin and Knicks but had something similar to this to post yesterday and deleted it by accident (again -_-) and started this way earlier today, got distracted, and finally got to finish it; so feel free to skip post if you are over the subject but..

I just hope some good writers come out defending the Knicks decision today or in coming days. All the bad press they got yesterday was so overblown imo, same as the writers who said stuff about Lin. I didn't even know about it until after I posted on here yesterday as I hadn't read any sports news yet. Media trying to exagerrate about owner's feelings and people being butthurt is just funny tho. I would think these people understand that business is business and people dealing at that high of a level understand it better than anyone, and they know it wouldn't be wise to do that.


Agree that the amount of backlash the Knicks and Dolan got may have been excessive, but it didn't come from nowhere. This is an organization and owner who have well-established reputations and histories for poor-to-terrible decisions in one of the largest media outlets in the world who were letting a valuable player that virtually everyone considers to be a hugely valuable asset slip away for nothing. Even if they didn't feel he fit their team going forward, they should have planned things out better and gotten something back for him.

I also don't know that it's outrageous to suggest that part of the decision may have been based on Dolan's feelings or him letting things get personal. He's known for letting his own feelings or opinions get the better of him in business decisions. This article by Simmons discusses some of it: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/32425/sports-guy-vault-the-james-dolan-theory Plus, there were too many reports from different sources about how the Knicks and/or Dolan were upset or felt insulted by how things happened for it to have been completely untrue.

People could argue it either way, but the truth is Lin is just a mid-tier player who doesn't justify that amount of money. He isn't the difference between the Knicks being 1st or 2nd rounders to championship contenders. Around 30 to 45 million for the third year of Lin is not smart, and in 2 years people would be saying how stupid the Knicks were to match that "ridiculous" contract. It's not about his bird or non-bird rights or being under the cap, it is about the luxury tax looming in the future. I know losing "lightning in a bottle" hurts, but it was actually a smart move. Too bad the Knicks chose a bad time and such a hyped, beloved player to finally be smart with their money.


The key for me is that the first two years of Lin's deal were very reasonable and maybe even a bit of a steal for what he brought to the team both on and off the court. You can't really measure the feelings and excitement that he brought to the franchise, the testimonials and comments from Knicks fans really made him out to be a giant breath of fresh air and something to root for. Plus, there's the value of the positive impact he brought to the team by being such a perfect PR figure, which helped to balance out the poor PR the rest of the team had. For $5M/yr, that was great value IMO. That's not even factoring in the fact that he has demonstrated an incredible ceiling of play during Linsanity, and at least had the potential to be more than just an average PG. Felton and Kidd are topped out at what they are, and it's not impressive. Why not go with the option that at least gives you the chance at a player who could play a significant role in contending?

When you get to the third year, I agree that it becomes ridiculous and much harder to accept. But that was something that the Knicks wouldn't have had to deal with for two whole years, during which they could see what they had and plan around. As has been mentioned by many sources, the Knicks had a lot of ways to lessen the blow of a worst case scenario. And let's be clear, anything less than a worst case scenario would still have been a positive for the Knicks in their situation. They had and have no other good means to add appreciable assets to their roster, Lin was unique due to that lucky Bird rights ruling that allowed them to resign him without giving anything else up. This is not even addressing the abundance of money the Knicks/Dolan have at their disposal which they clearly had no problem overspending on other just as questionable expenditures.

As for the "stretch provision", it is not a good sign for the Knicks if they are debating this and they are just about to sign the player. It should be a fallback option, as like a plan C or D in case of injuries and then you have to suddenly rebuild, etc. Not as an out you are seriously considering 2 years early, before even signing the player. Besides, the provision won't exactly help them out with how much they have to spend on him in total for just that year, it just helps spread it out into 3 years and helps out their cap. I am going to guess and say the "stretch provision" prob also has a limit on how often it can be used, so if they end up using it on Lin, they would lose it for a while. So being able to use it on a player who got injured and/or has a longer contract than 1 year left (a smarter move) is out the window.
edit: clarification


The "stretch provision" was only ever supposed to be a way to lessen the blow of a worst case scenario in which Lin bottomed out completely and lost all value. Linsanity has made Lin into a desirable asset to other teams beyond what he brings to the court, so he'd have to regress pretty dramatically for him to suddenly become untradeable, particularly as a large expiring contract (which he would've been in that third year due to the fourth year being a team option). Think about that. Worst case scenarion, the Knicks are left with a huge expiring contract (always very desirable to teams) on a player with a built-in billion-large audience that no other teams have access to.

The only reason the "stretch provision" came into the picture was because the Knicks were indicating that they were considering not matching the Rockets' offer due to financial reasons. It wasn't discussed initially as a way of justifying such a move. I haven't read anything about possible limitations on the amount of times a team can use a "stretch provision", so I assume there is none. The only limitation I've read is that it can only apply to "new contracts", which I assume is any that is signed since the signed the most recent CBA.

There are some things I don't necesarrily agree with here but instead of answering myself I actually think the ESPN "Six Degrees of Separation" six-sided story did a pretty good job, which I just found right now so don't know what time it came out. I only read chapters 5 and 6 so far ( The Financials and The Poison Pill) but they do a pretty good job explaining the Knicks side. Haven't read the other pieces tho, prob will right now in bit.

edit:chapter 6 good too..overall pleasantly surprised by ESPN reporting on tthat! (well last 3 stories lol).

edit2: I like Boston's move for Lee. If they get Pietrus or Delfino (heard him being discussed) now, it won't really matter too much b/c they will have some nice depth. Nice offseason so far.


Good article!!!

Also, I'm glad that the CBA is having some of its intended effects. Knicks being dissuaded form keeping Lin is a good thing. I imagine Knicks fans will be sour graping for a while though, and will pray to their diety's that he fails at basketball in Houston.
If you could reason with haters, there would be no haters. YGTMYFT
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