TL Chess Match 4 - Page 50
Forum Index > General Games |
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
| ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On September 06 2011 07:14 Picklesicle wrote: + Show Spoiler + Fair enough. I will be sure to not post half-finished thoughts in the future with the intent of future editing. re. cxd + Show Spoiler + I still don't like this for reasons that we've talked about on previous moves, for reasons given and nuked by myself on this move and for reasons given by numerous others, which all amount to the same basic idea: If we allow Bb4+ now, we'll simplify at a time when we'd rather keep our pieces so that we can keep the pressure on and thus keep the initiative. re. Bxc6 + Show Spoiler + Too early. White still enjoys a solid development lead, but our pieces aren't quite ready yet. Allowing Black to recapture with the d-pawn might result in fewer threats to our advanced e-pawn, but activates Black's light-squared bishop and queen. Material will equalize after the likely 7. Bxc6 dxc6 8. 0-0 0-0 9. cxd although 8. cxd seems playable as well. and development has evaporated but our (relatively minor) material disadvantage has been recouped. re. 0-0 + Show Spoiler + I see the point that both jdseemoreglass and Mr. Prophylactic have made re. the simplification on f2 after Qc2. I'll note that it is rather the same as my concern that I raised when we were debating 5. d4 vs 5. 0-0 as 6. e5 Ne4 being a response, but this position is better for White than the one I outlined at that time. As jdseemoreglass puts it Black is up material, but he is behind in development, and all of white's pieces are lining up for a dangerous king-side attack. I don't know that I'd castle as Black immediately following the simplification, though. You're quite right about that king-side attack. Castling into where your opponent's pieces are pointing isn't the best idea. Admittedly, neither is leaving one's king in the center when the center files are half-open! Black's in a dangerous spot. He's actually got fewer pieces than White [I'm using the distinction of pieces vs pawns here] so while he'd love to trade away and end up at some kind of king+pawns vs king+fewer pawns endgame, that'll be hard. But he has a few pawns he can give up to weather the storm, specifically to get rid of that pesky advanced e-pawn. It seems that he'd rather preserve his Knight and then try to exchange off his d-pawn with the e-pawn to open up lines for his light bishop. Play for Black is going to be on the queenside and he's going to want to get his king over there. However, what if Black plays 7. 0-0 dxc 8. Qc2 f5 ? White can take en passant, but that extricates Black's Knight (admittedly to the much weaker f6 square). The e-file is now open and Black's going to want to get his king off it in a hurry (with the Knight no longer on e4, the f2 pawn is pretty secure). 9. Re1+ can be met with either Ne7 (preserving the other Knight) or Be7. Black gives up his advanced pawn, retains his 1-pawn material lead and tries to catch up in development. This is very similar to the scenario above, only Black has a much smaller pawn lead (1) but retains his pieces. If White does not capture en passant, then what? The goal here, as I understand it, is to retain the initiative and keep Black underdeveloped for a long as possible while mounting a strong kingside attack. Black's lack of queenside development will mean that he has no good way to defend and will either lose in the midgame or be forced to make so many concessions that at worst, material will equalize for the endgame with us in possession of spacial control and at best we'll just have an all-round better endgame. Is that in keeping with other people's direction here? If so, then it seems that again, it is too early for the exchange on c6 for all the same reasons as above. The pawn on c3 is still a problem, so capturing it would be my vote. In keeping with our goals, Nxc3 might be best to put pressure on the e4 Knight. This could transpose into the lines you & Mr. Prophylactic have discussed this move and I voiced on previous moves... or there could just be a Knight exchange on c3 followed by a bishop retreat to either b6 or e7. It is true that the g8-a2 diagonal is weak with this line and that castling kingside is dangerous business for Black. re. Qe2 + Show Spoiler + After some thought (this was the move I've had in mind for a while now should Ne4 be played, as I've mentioned in previous moves), I concur that this is a weaker version of 0-0, since it allows Black to advance the d-pawn and recapture with the b-pawn should the trade occur unless white spends a tempo to get back on the d1-a4 diagonal. re. Qc2 + Show Spoiler + So what about this? It retains the initiative. The advantages of Qe2 (pressure on the Knight) are retained, and Black must respond before the annoying dark Bishop's path to the f-pawn is clear. 7. Qc2 dxc ultimately trades 2 pawns for a piece, with superior development for White. Black should probably castle at this moment, as White is going to look to castle and double up rooks on the e-file very soon now. 7. Qc2 f5 8. exf ep Nxf6 9. 0-0 transposes into lines from 7. 0-0, discussed above and by jdseemoreglass. 9. Bxc6 dxc6 (I know, I know I've been saying we should wait till the d-pawn moves) 10. cxd Bb4+ 11. Bd2 and we should not have too much trouble getting a good knight outpost on the e-file either on the 5th or the 6th! Of course, our king is still in the middle of a wide-open center. This makes me nervous and has for a while. However, so long as the initiative remains ours, that should be fine. Our kingside pawns are out of any danger and still solid and castling remains a solid option. re. Nbd2 Sorry, this still kinda intrigues me but I honestly haven't thought about it a whole lot. It seems to be a weaker version of Qe2 on the surface, though. + Show Spoiler + It seems, ultimately, that 7. 0-0 is a solid option with a lot of play, but I think 7. Qc2 is as well. In all honesty, I think 7. Qe2 is a slightly weaker version of both of these and I think cxd and Bxc6 are both premature and deviate too much from what I see as the plan; ultimately, they will allow black to catch up in development before we can really bring anything to bear. I have nothing solid to say about Nbd2. I continue to hold on my vote. I'll think about it while I cook dinner. Cheers. Well said! You bring up a lot of good points, and interesting ideas. Regardless of the conclusion you end up reaching, it's always nice to see someone putting a lot of thought and analysis into their move. ![]() On a different note, I was thinking about what Ng5 was saying regarding engines. I'm not sure if I agree completely, because it seems modern engines such as Houdini are becoming nearly unbeatable, except for rare cases against strong GM's. I think when this game is over, it would be fun to play a TL Chess Match vs. the Houdini engine, with Ng5 leading the way, since he seems to know the most about engine weaknesses. Even then, though, I think it would be extremely difficult to reach a win. But it would be fun to try ![]() | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 06 2011 07:14 Picklesicle wrote: You say that 7. Qe2 is a weaker version of + Show Spoiler +Fair enough. I will be sure to not post half-finished thoughts in the future with the intent of future editing. re. cxd + Show Spoiler + I still don't like this for reasons that we've talked about on previous moves, for reasons given and nuked by myself on this move and for reasons given by numerous others, which all amount to the same basic idea: If we allow Bb4+ now, we'll simplify at a time when we'd rather keep our pieces so that we can keep the pressure on and thus keep the initiative. re. Bxc6 + Show Spoiler + Too early. White still enjoys a solid development lead, but our pieces aren't quite ready yet. Allowing Black to recapture with the d-pawn might result in fewer threats to our advanced e-pawn, but activates Black's light-squared bishop and queen. Material will equalize after the likely 7. Bxc6 dxc6 8. 0-0 0-0 9. cxd although 8. cxd seems playable as well. The result of this seems to be an equal game, but one where our (significant) advantage in initiative and development has evaporated but our (relatively minor) material disadvantage has been recouped. re. 0-0 + Show Spoiler + I see the point that both jdseemoreglass and Mr. Prophylactic have made re. the simplification on f2 after Qc2. I'll note that it is rather the same as my concern that I raised when we were debating 5. d4 vs 5. 0-0 as 6. e5 Ne4 being a response, but this position is better for White than the one I outlined at that time. As jdseemoreglass puts it Black is up material, but he is behind in development, and all of white's pieces are lining up for a dangerous king-side attack. I don't know that I'd castle as Black immediately following the simplification, though. You're quite right about that king-side attack. Castling into where your opponent's pieces are pointing isn't the best idea. Admittedly, neither is leaving one's king in the center when the center files are half-open! Black's in a dangerous spot. He's actually got fewer pieces than White [I'm using the distinction of pieces vs pawns here] so while he'd love to trade away and end up at some kind of king+pawns vs king+fewer pawns endgame, that'll be hard. But he has a few pawns he can give up to weather the storm, specifically to get rid of that pesky advanced e-pawn. It seems that he'd rather preserve his Knight and then try to exchange off his d-pawn with the e-pawn to open up lines for his light bishop. Play for Black is going to be on the queenside and he's going to want to get his king over there. However, what if Black plays 7. 0-0 dxc 8. Qc2 f5 ? White can take en passant, but that extricates Black's Knight (admittedly to the much weaker f6 square). The e-file is now open and Black's going to want to get his king off it in a hurry (with the Knight no longer on e4, the f2 pawn is pretty secure). 9. Re1+ can be met with either Ne7 (preserving the other Knight) or Be7. Black gives up his advanced pawn, retains his 1-pawn material lead and tries to catch up in development. This is very similar to the scenario above, only Black has a much smaller pawn lead (1) but retains his pieces. If White does not capture en passant, then what? The goal here, as I understand it, is to retain the initiative and keep Black underdeveloped for a long as possible while mounting a strong kingside attack. Black's lack of queenside development will mean that he has no good way to defend and will either lose in the midgame or be forced to make so many concessions that at worst, material will equalize for the endgame with us in possession of spacial control and at best we'll just have an all-round better endgame. Is that in keeping with other people's direction here? If so, then it seems that again, it is too early for the exchange on c6 for all the same reasons as above. The pawn on c3 is still a problem, so capturing it would be my vote. In keeping with our goals, Nxc3 might be best to put pressure on the e4 Knight. This could transpose into the lines you & Mr. Prophylactic have discussed this move and I voiced on previous moves... or there could just be a Knight exchange on c3 followed by a bishop retreat to either b6 or e7. It is true that the g8-a2 diagonal is weak with this line and that castling kingside is dangerous business for Black. re. Qc2 + Show Spoiler + So what about this? It retains the initiative. The advantages of Qe2 (pressure on the Knight) are retained, and Black must respond before the annoying dark Bishop's path to the f-pawn is clear. 7. Qc2 dxc ultimately trades 2 pawns for a piece, with superior development for White. Black should probably castle at this moment, as White is going to look to castle and double up rooks on the e-file very soon now. 7. Qc2 f5 8. exf ep Nxf6 9. 0-0 transposes into lines from 7. 0-0, discussed above and by jdseemoreglass. 9. Bxc6 dxc6 (I know, I know I've been saying we should wait till the d-pawn moves) 10. cxd Bb4+ 11. Bd2 and we should not have too much trouble getting a good knight outpost on the e-file either on the 5th or the 6th! Of course, our king is still in the middle of a wide-open center. This makes me nervous and has for a while. However, so long as the initiative remains ours, that should be fine. Our kingside pawns are out of any danger and still solid and castling remains a solid option. re. Nbd2 Sorry, this still kinda intrigues me but I honestly haven't thought about it a whole lot. It seems to be a weaker version of Qe2 on the surface, though. + Show Spoiler + It seems, ultimately, that 7. 0-0 is a solid option with a lot of play, but I think 7. Qc2 is as well. In all honesty, I think 7. Qe2 is a slightly weaker version of both of these and I think cxd and Bxc6 are both premature and deviate too much from what I see as the plan; ultimately, they will allow black to catch up in development before we can really bring anything to bear. I have nothing solid to say about Nbd2. I continue to hold on my vote. I'll think about it while I cook dinner. Cheers. 7. 0-0 a pawn at the least--two pawns in jdseemoreglass's preferred line You say that 7. Qe2 is a weaker version of + Show Spoiler + 7. Qc2 7...d3 simultaneously threatens our Queen, prevents her from taking our Knight, and opens the door to 8...Nxf2, leaving Black with both a material advantage (a pawn) and a positional one (our King is stuck without the ability to castle; our e-pawn is isolated.) Of course after 7. Qe2, 7... d3 is a non-starter--we'd just play 8. QxN. I would say that 7. Qe2 is stronger than (although not "a version of") both of these moves. If one has an appetite for positions where he is down material but has initiative, he could argue in favor of the first move over Qe2, perhaps. As for the second move, I don't see anything to argue at all--unless I'm missing something big (if I am, please correct me), it's a bad move plain and simple. re. Qe2 Could you clarify what you meant here? As written, I don't understand what you have in mind with this.+ Show Spoiler + After some thought (this was the move I've had in mind for a while now should Ne4 be played, as I've mentioned in previous moves), I concur that this is a weaker version of 0-0, since it allows Black to advance the d-pawn and recapture with the b-pawn should the trade occur unless white spends a tempo to get back on the d1-a4 diagonal. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
Votes 7. cxd4: 19 ( 7. Qe2: 10 (LaXerCannon, MrProphylactic, indigoawareness, Babyfactory, noclaninator, qrs, Bill Murray, mcc, Snarfs, gogogadgetflow) 7. 0-0: 7 (Raysalis, chesshaha, jdseemoreglass, wuBu, EvilNalu, aphorism, GolemMadness) 7. Nbd2: 1 (amazingxkcd) 7. Bxc6: 2 (mastergriggy, RAGEMOAR The Pope) ![]() | ||
Picklesicle
United States64 Posts
On September 06 2011 11:15 qrs wrote: You say that 7. Qe2 is a weaker version of + Show Spoiler + 7. 0-0 a pawn at the least--two pawns in jdseemoreglass's preferred line You are correct. That would be the implication. You say that 7. Qe2 is a weaker version of + Show Spoiler + 7. Qc2 7...d3 simultaneously threatens our Queen, prevents her from taking our Knight, and opens the door to 8...Nxf2, leaving Black with both a material advantage (a pawn) and a positional one (our King is stuck without the ability to castle; our e-pawn is isolated.) Of course after 7. Qe2, 7... d3 is a non-starter--we'd just play 8. QxN. I would say that 7. Qe2 is stronger than (although not "a version of") both of these moves. If one has an appetite for positions where he is down material but has initiative, he could argue in favor of the first move over Qe2, perhaps. As for the second move, I don't see anything to argue at all--unless I'm missing something big (if I am, please correct me), it's a bad move plain and simple. I'd say you are not missing anything big, I just am. My chessboard has been pushed aside so that the family can have dinner thus I cannot really look at it in its current state, but I think you are correct and that this is a blunder on my part. re. Qe2 + Show Spoiler + After some thought (this was the move I've had in mind for a while now should Ne4 be played, as I've mentioned in previous moves), I concur that this is a weaker version of 0-0, since it allows Black to advance the d-pawn and recapture with the b-pawn should the trade occur unless white spends a tempo to get back on the d1-a4 diagonal. I'm referring to jdseemoreglass' line in which we + Show Spoiler + do the exchange on c6, in which Black recaptures with the b-pawn and then we play Qa4 to apply more pressure. With Qc2 discredited as stupid, I'll think quickly on this and post my move in the next 10 minutes. | ||
hype[NZ]
Japan412 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I expected this from a few moves ago and initially thought it would be best, however I don't really like giving black the opportunity to trade off a bunch of our pieces. Hence I will cast my vote for 7.Qe2 + Show Spoiler + From the analysis provided this seems like a good way to maintain the initiative, and the lines arising from it look quite fun. | ||
Picklesicle
United States64 Posts
I vote 7. Qe2 Based on referring back to my own older analysis from previous moves and the arguments of jdseemoreglass and qrs. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 06 2011 11:39 Picklesicle wrote: Thanks for clarifying. If you don't mind my saying, it would actually be even more helpful if you could paste in the line in question, but not to worry, I was able to track it down (thankfully we haven't yet reached page 51). You were referring to the following line after 7. 0-0: + Show Spoiler +You are correct. That would be the implication. ... I'm referring to jdseemoreglass' line in which we + Show Spoiler + do the exchange on c6, in which Black recaptures with the b-pawn and then we play Qa4 to apply more pressure. On September 05 2011 07:35 jdseemoreglass wrote: After 7. ... d5 8. exd6ep Nxd6 9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qa4, black can't defend the pawn and the threat of Re1+. ![]() 10. ... O-O 11. Qxc6, threatening the rook and the bishop. Black must play: 11. ... Nb7 12. cxd4 Bb6 13. Nc3 Rb8 14. Be3, and we are safely a pawn up. ![]() If I'm understanding you correctly, then, you are saying that this line is an improvement over similar lines that follow 7. Qe2 because after 7. Qe2+ Show Spoiler [rest of line] + 7. ... d5 8. exd6ep Nxd6 9. Bxc6 bxc6 However, if that's right, then you must not have used a board, because after 7. Qe2, Black's original 8th move in that line isn't possible either. In fact, no move that regains the material is immediately possible (because + Show Spoiler [)] + the Knight is in danger and is pinned to the King) Therefore, while it's true that the specific line in question isn't possible after 7. Qe2, that is irrelevant, as that line isn't needed to gain material either. On the other hand, Black's 7th move, conceding us the material, is all but forced after 7. Qe2, which it is not after 7. 0-0. Thus, if one move is to be described as a "weaker version of the other" on the basis of the lines that follow this 7th move of Black's, if anything, I'd say that the boot is on the other foot. But at the end of the day, despite averring that 7. 0-0 is a stronger version of 7. Qe2, you voted for the latter move anyhow, so I seem to be preaching to the mysteriously converted. | ||
Picklesicle
United States64 Posts
Sorry for not copy-pasting. Ordinarily I would have, but I was running back and forth between washing up dishes and checking the thread and was getting some nasty looks. ![]() In short, what happened is I referred back to my own old analysis of Qe2 done back when we were arguing over 5. d4 or 5. 0-0 and decided I trusted that well enough to try it out, partially because I'm just curious. I also decided, in effect, what you explain very well above which is that if I am to follow the goals as I myself describe them then it is critical to keep the pressure on which Qe2 achieves better than 0-0, despite my feelings about relative merits later on. I'll expound later and properly update my analysis to reflect my changing thoughts; I really should spend some time with the family not gazing longingly at the computer and chessboard. ![]() | ||
Seldentar
United States888 Posts
| ||
Ng5
702 Posts
I'll post my reply tomorrow or the day after. I'll get the statistics out there soon. Edit: Removing the following people for inactivity, if you want to get back just vote in the next move or send me a PM. Epithet, goldrush, nikj, nordlyset, Occam3, TehForce, thehitman, TheSasquatch, TNT0677. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
Votes 7. cxd4: 19 ( 7. Qe2: 13 (LaXerCannon, MrProphylactic, indigoawareness, Babyfactory, noclaninator, qrs, Bill Murray, mcc, Snarfs, gogogadgetflow, hype[NZ], Picklesicle, Seldentar) 7. 0-0: 7 (Raysalis, chesshaha, jdseemoreglass, wuBu, EvilNalu, aphorism, GolemMadness) 7. Nbd2: 1 (amazingxkcd) 7. Bxc6: 2 (mastergriggy, RAGEMOAR The Pope) ![]() 7. Qe2 had a bit of a surge towards the end, but too late. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 06 2011 13:04 Ng5 wrote: Why do you bother, since there's no practical difference?Edit: Removing the following people for inactivity, if you want to get back just vote in the next move or send me a PM. | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
qrs wrote: Why do you bother, since there's no practical difference? It makes the participation percentages more accurate and it's also easier for me to keep track of. I also just do it according to my own spreadsheets, which I use to send out reminders each time. Once I've sent three consecutive move reminders without an actual move I just remove, so everything is kept clean. On another note - all updates are done now and for the first time our statistics look similar! | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
7... Bb4+ 8. Nbd2 and 8. Bd2, in either case blocking the check. 8... NxB 1) In the long term, Bishops ought to be better than Knights on an open board such as this is becoming, especially if someone has the Bishop pair, as Black does. People pointed this out several times in argument against Bxc6, and although there may have been other points in favor of that move, I agree with the principle that Bishops are generally better than Knights on an open board. 2) In the short term, allowing Black to trade Knight for Bishop lessens our ability to challenge his Bishop's strong position along the a5-e1 diagonal, where it is currently aimed at our King and later will be aimed at a nice spot for our Rook. Our control over this diagonal has already been weakened by the loss of our c-pawn, so I don't think that we should weaken it further by giving up our Bishop for his Knight. It could be argued that just as 8. Bd2 allows 8... NxB with the result of strengthening Black's bishop, 8. Nbd2 allows 8...BxN with the result of strengthening Black's e4 Knight, but this is much less problematic to my mind, as the Knight is on a square where it cannot be maintained indefinitely, and we can exchange it off at will, as it has nowhere to run to. Originally, the first move was the only response that was really under discussion in this line. More recently, jdseemoreglass has said that he considers the second move not only viable, but possibly better. In one recent post, he offered the reasoning that + Show Spoiler + we shouldn't be too reluctant to trade our "bad" dark squared bishop for blacks dangerous centralized knight, so playing Bd2 isn't much of a problem. The Knight's immobility and indefensibility make it much less dangerous than it appears at first glance, imo. Meanwhile, I don't know why jdseemoreglass is calling our Bishop "bad"--it is not in the least hemmed in by pawns, which is usually what people mean when they talk about a "bad" bishop. Yes, it is temporarily hemmed in by a Knight, but this is a very different thing. Edit: on second thought, I realize that jd must have been talking about our d4 and e5 pawns, which are both on squares of the same color as that Bishop. Still, even if it's technically a "bad" Bishop, it has plenty of scope. Temporarily is the key word: both the strength of Black's Knight and the weakness of our Bishop are temporary, disappearing as our castling removes the pin on d2 and Black is forced to exchange away his e4 Knight. On the other hand, the strength of Black's b4 bishop is a much more permanent thing, in my assessment. | ||
Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
i am dissapointed we went for the pawn sacrifice, considering he will advance his bishop and win a pin, but it's better than if we castled and he won a rook and a pawn for a knight and a bishop | ||
Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
we HAVE to move our BISHOP and LET HIM TRADE. I say this as someone who values bishops over knights, too. We HAVE to have cover on our right side knight with that bishop if he goes bb4+, meaning we need to block the check with our bishop NOT our knight like qrs is suggesting, otherwise he will fuck up our right side castle pawns... unless you all want to castle queen side edit: ignore this post. He can force a knight withdrawal by saccing the bb4 bishop anyways, i'm dumb | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 06 2011 19:08 Bill Murray wrote: We haven't gone for a pawn sacrifice.i am dissapointed we went for the pawn sacrifice, considering he will advance his bishop and win a pin, but it's better than if we castled and he won a rook and a pawn for a knight and a bishop Once I too was worried about + Show Spoiler + 7... Bb4+ 8. Nbd2 Ng5. | ||
MrProphylactic
296 Posts
Well the cxd have it , I suspect he will play the bb4, nbd2 line . But with this guy (I think he is an IM who knows??), I am getting the feeling he is comfortable playing about anything . And he is above my level .( Ive seen his ICC ratings on his stream , a good deal of points higher than mine in the pools . I am guessing he is around IM level , maybe even a GM norm or two | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
Puzzle. | ||
| ||