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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
I have been using reaper opening in all match ups and want to have some opinion from better players. I am currently plat but soon to be diamond as terran.
General: I open 12 rax 12 gas into expo, into 3 rax 2 reactor 1 tech lab for combat shield marine with eb +1.
Then for medivac stim marine marauder pure bio style.
I don't scv scout since I am already sacrificing minerals for the 12 gas.
TvZ:
I almost always open with 3 reapers which do very well against Zerg that don't go for gas first.
Helps with sniping queen and tumors and a lot more map control.
But how do I deal with earlier gas speedling opening? What should I do with my reapers?
I normally just try to do some cliff micro and eventually sac to have his main scouted.
I feel like a fast 3 reapers is not very cost efficient if Zerg gets a gas around 17 gas or so.
TvP:
How many reapers should I go for?
I almost can't defend any form of early pressure if I opened anything reaper related except for one reaper.
3 reapers does an ok job for containing the opponent and not letting him go out from his base until he has more units out.
But a straight 3 gate msc pressure becomes a lot harder to defend.
With a fast msc opening, the reaper don't do anything at all since he is almost free to move out whenever he wants
Mid master here
I force myself to play heavy reaper style in all matchup and about PvT i use a kind of weird build that worked because it's surprising i guess.
12 rax
13 gas
15 oc
15 marine
15 second rax hidden somewhere
reactor on first rax( you fake the popular opening 2 marines 1 reactor)
2nd gas
reactor on second rax
depend what you scout you produce reapers or marine. If you scout early stargate play go for one rax only marine and the other only reapers. if you scout early expand go produce 4 reapers off 1 base (you have to do dmg)
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On April 09 2013 00:22 Smackzilla wrote:
Is a control-group dedicated to your whole army a bad habit for Terran? Now I'm specifically talking about using a CG rather than the select-all-army button blizzard added.
The advantages seem to be:
1) Quicker changes in army movement.
2) Less likely to leave pieces of your army behind.
The disadvantages seem to be:
1) An extra CG to maintain.
2) One less CG to work with. With multi-harass, ghost, stim, raven, siege it seems hots terran really needs all the CGs it can get.
3) If using the all-army group to cast spells, you have to use next-subgroup which varies depending on unit comp and is slower than selecting a dedicated CG for the spell (e.g. stim, siege, EMP).
Why not just use the select-all? You still have to bind everything this way, might as well have 2/3 seperate CGs then. That's the only way to go I think, the select-all is too likely to mess with spotters, drops etc and with only 1 its harder to stim/emp/snipe/boost. Also you usually don't want to move your medivacs when moving your bio to kite (move and fire, but if you include medivacs they dont heal while moving).
I don't really get your point? You mean bind everything and then exclude spotters/drops?
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On April 09 2013 00:33 BaaL` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:22 Smackzilla wrote:
Is a control-group dedicated to your whole army a bad habit for Terran? Now I'm specifically talking about using a CG rather than the select-all-army button blizzard added.
The advantages seem to be:
1) Quicker changes in army movement.
2) Less likely to leave pieces of your army behind.
The disadvantages seem to be:
1) An extra CG to maintain.
2) One less CG to work with. With multi-harass, ghost, stim, raven, siege it seems hots terran really needs all the CGs it can get.
3) If using the all-army group to cast spells, you have to use next-subgroup which varies depending on unit comp and is slower than selecting a dedicated CG for the spell (e.g. stim, siege, EMP).
Why not just use the select-all? You still have to bind everything this way, might as well have 2/3 seperate CGs then. That's the only way to go I think, the select-all is too likely to mess with spotters, drops etc and with only 1 its harder to stim/emp/snipe/boost. Also you usually don't want to move your medivacs when moving your bio to kite (move and fire, but if you include medivacs they dont heal while moving). I don't really get your point? You mean bind everything and then exclude spotters/drops?
I usually have a group for all my army, I then have a group for ghosts and another for my dropships . F2 is only from key spots like emergency select! But. Mostly u don't want to use it because it will move your marines and drops away
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On April 08 2013 21:21 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:04 govie wrote:On April 08 2013 12:06 AKomrade wrote:
Is TvT just marine/medivac in the midgame now? I haven't faced a single Diamond+ terran who has built a tank (to attack) before 13:00. I find it wierd too because siege is free, i assumed there would be alot more early timing pushes with tanks mixed in. But im guessing double upgrades+mines are more effective then tanks nowadays. Someone said that a tank normally gets 1 or 2 maybe 3 shots of in a fight, if thats true, the gascost would favor mines. Add to that the fact that mech play has Hellbats now (YAY), and you're looking at increased utility but decreased relevance for the tank in Terran matchups. Don't get me wrong, you want to defend something, the Tank is kick-ass, but on aggro, Mines move and set-up faster, and Hellbats do incredible area damage while still being able to move AND be healed.
Yeah, that's what I'm finding and with turbovacs, there is almost no gas loss for the MMMM player while the marine/tank loses tanks. I feel like tanks would beat mine compositions in equal direct fights, though. Is that the common transition out of openings? Double ebay and mines? I'm so far behind the metagame in TvT..
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Relating to above what is the general way to control groups for your army? ? This is what I do
F2 - to choose all units
1 - Again all units ( force of habit)
2 - Marines
3 - Window Mines/ Tanks/ Marauders
I feel I dont get enough control and its awkward using f2 and 1 what do u guys do pls suggest thanks
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On April 09 2013 00:05 BaaL` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 23:18 Tenks wrote:
Assuming I do a standard reaper FE in TvP and the Protoss does something like Stargate into Templar what is my correct job of my first 4 medivacs if the Protoss is on 2 bases. Should my only goal be to soft contain him while delaying his third and rushing my third out? Do I need to be aggressive with the drops and try and force them or should I just concede that the drops will be dealt with so I should just drop and try to kill a pylon here and there?
Thanks. Depends what happened with the stargate. If he went for phoenix, you really should not try to drop. Definitely take a quick 3rd in that case, and try to stop his. If it was a failed oracle, go ahead and attack while taking a 3rd, just make sure you retreat quickly rather than losing units and you should be able to keep him on 2 bases for a long time. In this case, there is no way for storm to be ready when your attack is hitting (around 10-10:30). If it was an oracle or VR that did a lot of damage, you probably don't have the units to fight right now and should just defend while taking a 3rd at the right time. Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:00 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Using the 15 gas reactor expand, the soonest you can have a mine done (with no scouting or probe harass) is about 6:10 if you cut marine production. Proxy oracle is in my mineral line at 5:40. DWF says the best way to deal with oracles is mines.
If they used their 2 gas and proxy pylon (the only information I can reliably scout) to go for a stalker or sentry heavy 3 gate, I get do defend it with 4 marines in a bunker, maybe a mine if they are bad. This is an auto loss either way.
What did I miss? Isn't it possible to scout the proxy in any case when you got a reaper? You should see a pylon missing, and from there the proxy spots that are close enough to your base should be scouted in time. At least that way you know if its a stargate or a robotics or just a gateway all-in. If its a stargate, don't cut marines, and I think you should have 6 by the time it arrives? I'm not sure about this, because I don't play reaper in TvP. In any case I don't think it can do that much damage before being defended by marines. After that you get a turret ASAP, if he went for multiple oracle you just kill him and if it was only 1 you shouldn't take enough damage to be behind (since you got an expand way sooner than P).
If you get a reaper, your factory is later. You need 6 marines to kill an oracle. If you get a reaper, you will not have 6 marines if you made a factory. You will have 4, even with no reaper and no marine cut. Maybe 6 if the proxy is farther away or they are bad. It does't matter if they announce that they are doing proxy oracle amd tell you it is proxied in your natural. Mvp s "safe" build seems like an auto loss
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http://drop.sc/319471
So, I open up super greedy 1 barracks expand into reactor factory with double engineering bay, then a third CC as I scout a third base with my Hellions. I then effectively lose to a delayed roach push with roughly 8 roaches, then he goes and pushes again with about 20-30 or so roaches, with a spire on the way that I scanned.
How do I scout this and prepare properly? Nevermind that I did a coinflip build that game.
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On April 09 2013 00:39 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Relating to above what is the general way to control groups for your army? ? This is what I do
F2 - to choose all units
1 - Again all units ( force of habit)
2 - Marines
3 - Window Mines/ Tanks/ Marauders
I feel I dont get enough control and its awkward using f2 and 1 what do u guys do pls suggest thanks
I use 1-3 for army (1 is whatever is active on the battlefield, 2 and 3 for casters, drops, tanks, other half of an army), 4 for all production and upgrades and 5 for CCs. F1-F4 are all screen saves of my initial four bases. You will also need to use your mouse for splitting, individual micro (reapers, hellion micro) and if you can generate the speed, you can double click things like tanks so you can use a hotkey for a counter attack or something.
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On April 09 2013 00:33 BaaL` wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:22 Smackzilla wrote:
Is a control-group dedicated to your whole army a bad habit for Terran? Now I'm specifically talking about using a CG rather than the select-all-army button blizzard added.
The advantages seem to be:
1) Quicker changes in army movement.
2) Less likely to leave pieces of your army behind.
The disadvantages seem to be:
1) An extra CG to maintain.
2) One less CG to work with. With multi-harass, ghost, stim, raven, siege it seems hots terran really needs all the CGs it can get.
3) If using the all-army group to cast spells, you have to use next-subgroup which varies depending on unit comp and is slower than selecting a dedicated CG for the spell (e.g. stim, siege, EMP).
Why not just use the select-all? You still have to bind everything this way, might as well have 2/3 seperate CGs then. That's the only way to go I think, the select-all is too likely to mess with spotters, drops etc and with only 1 its harder to stim/emp/snipe/boost. Also you usually don't want to move your medivacs when moving your bio to kite (move and fire, but if you include medivacs they dont heal while moving). I don't really get your point? You mean bind everything and then exclude spotters/drops?
My problem with select-all is it grabs things I may not want to move (e.g. a harass drop). Using spells with select all is also bad (e.g. stim soldiers that just got built).
Personally, I don't use a CG for army or the select-all button. I'm not sure that's best, though. Just curious what others think.
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Quick TvT question: What is the best way to deal with these 2 rax reaper openings when you yourself are going for a reaper expand?
The hardest part seems to be that he is making reapers while my barracks is getting a reactor and my factory is still building. Should I just build my stuff close to the mineral line when I am going such a build? Is an SCV scout necessary before my reaper is finished?
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On April 09 2013 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:05 BaaL` wrote:On April 08 2013 23:18 Tenks wrote:
Assuming I do a standard reaper FE in TvP and the Protoss does something like Stargate into Templar what is my correct job of my first 4 medivacs if the Protoss is on 2 bases. Should my only goal be to soft contain him while delaying his third and rushing my third out? Do I need to be aggressive with the drops and try and force them or should I just concede that the drops will be dealt with so I should just drop and try to kill a pylon here and there?
Thanks. Depends what happened with the stargate. If he went for phoenix, you really should not try to drop. Definitely take a quick 3rd in that case, and try to stop his. If it was a failed oracle, go ahead and attack while taking a 3rd, just make sure you retreat quickly rather than losing units and you should be able to keep him on 2 bases for a long time. In this case, there is no way for storm to be ready when your attack is hitting (around 10-10:30). If it was an oracle or VR that did a lot of damage, you probably don't have the units to fight right now and should just defend while taking a 3rd at the right time. On April 09 2013 00:00 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Using the 15 gas reactor expand, the soonest you can have a mine done (with no scouting or probe harass) is about 6:10 if you cut marine production. Proxy oracle is in my mineral line at 5:40. DWF says the best way to deal with oracles is mines.
If they used their 2 gas and proxy pylon (the only information I can reliably scout) to go for a stalker or sentry heavy 3 gate, I get do defend it with 4 marines in a bunker, maybe a mine if they are bad. This is an auto loss either way.
What did I miss? Isn't it possible to scout the proxy in any case when you got a reaper? You should see a pylon missing, and from there the proxy spots that are close enough to your base should be scouted in time. At least that way you know if its a stargate or a robotics or just a gateway all-in. If its a stargate, don't cut marines, and I think you should have 6 by the time it arrives? I'm not sure about this, because I don't play reaper in TvP. In any case I don't think it can do that much damage before being defended by marines. After that you get a turret ASAP, if he went for multiple oracle you just kill him and if it was only 1 you shouldn't take enough damage to be behind (since you got an expand way sooner than P). If you get a reaper, your factory is later. You need 6 marines to kill an oracle. If you get a reaper, you will not have 6 marines if you made a factory. You will have 4, even with no reaper and no marine cut. Maybe 6 if the proxy is farther away or they are bad. It does't matter if they announce that they are doing proxy oracle amd tell you it is proxied in your natural. Mvp s "safe" build seems like an auto loss
If they're doing that near of a proxy, you HAVE to find it. As soon as your Reaper begins smelling the hints of cheese, you look for that pylon like your life depends on it, because it does. Find it, and take it out BEFORE that super early Oracle shows up. My assumption is that the fastest possible proxy Oracle cuts either Stalker or MSC, and as a result shouldn't have the map control necessary to stop you from taking out the pylon before the Stargate can spit out the little ball of death.
Upon re-checking the OP, yes, the super fast proxy timing mentioned includes a cut Stalker, which means there is no way the Protoss can prevent the destruction of his proxy if you find it in time. If, on the other hand, you have a Protoss who doesn't cut the Stalker and Warp Gate, you have enough time to get both 6 Marines and the Mine out to defend.
A checklist to follow (assuming he is doing this super fast proxy build):
1. Double gas plus spare chrono?
2. No third pylon? (check all possible proxy spots)
3. No Stalker/Warp Gate research?
All of the above tells you it's fast proxy Oracle play. The fact that such a proxy build is easy to recognize is probably why you don't see it as often as its deadliness would indicate. Protoss want to hide the Oracle if possible, and so they'll build a normal Stalker timing with Warp Gate, maybe even a 'fake' third pylon in the main to trick you into thinking it isn't proxied, and all that delays the Oracles enough for you to defend.
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I rebinded my "select all units" to the Spacebar. I think it's very useful in certain situations like panic defense, and pressing an advantage, automatically selecting all rallying units and stimming them
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On April 08 2013 02:02 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 21:11 Sprite825 wrote:
hey guys, I'm a diamond terran struggling to find a nice bo per match up with wich I can practice hard on ladder. I would like to have one build by mu mainly evolving in safe macro bio play(mixed with mines/tank/ghost, vicking depending of the mu). I looked at the bo at the beginning of the first post, but I feel like they are all very greedy, or too agressive...
(I wanted to look at polt's play because I really like it,but there is no vod on his twitch...) http://sc2casts.com/?q=polt Here is a list of polt games.
Here's a list of all of Polt's games at SC2Links that is updated much more frequently than SC2Casts. For example Grubby vs Polt was uploaded 3/8/2013 on SC2Links and 3/21/2013 on SC2Casts.
http://www.sc2links.com/search.php?player=Polt
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Has anyone been working on any mass mass mine builds they'd like to share? I'm a scrub so theres no way to tell if its viable at my level. But the concept seems to be drawing a bit of attention, and I was wondering if anyone has tried to refine it. I've played around a little with the idea and have realised that you want vehicle armor, burrow speed upgrade and the non bio engineering bay upgrades. I found that you eventually need vikings to deal with ranged air units, and noticed that with the upgrades I want for the mines that Ravens would add a lot if you survive that long.
I'm leaning towards mines->add vikings->add raven. I mineral dump with turrents and more bases.
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On April 09 2013 08:46 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On April 09 2013 00:05 BaaL` wrote:On April 08 2013 23:18 Tenks wrote:
Assuming I do a standard reaper FE in TvP and the Protoss does something like Stargate into Templar what is my correct job of my first 4 medivacs if the Protoss is on 2 bases. Should my only goal be to soft contain him while delaying his third and rushing my third out? Do I need to be aggressive with the drops and try and force them or should I just concede that the drops will be dealt with so I should just drop and try to kill a pylon here and there?
Thanks. Depends what happened with the stargate. If he went for phoenix, you really should not try to drop. Definitely take a quick 3rd in that case, and try to stop his. If it was a failed oracle, go ahead and attack while taking a 3rd, just make sure you retreat quickly rather than losing units and you should be able to keep him on 2 bases for a long time. In this case, there is no way for storm to be ready when your attack is hitting (around 10-10:30). If it was an oracle or VR that did a lot of damage, you probably don't have the units to fight right now and should just defend while taking a 3rd at the right time. On April 09 2013 00:00 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Using the 15 gas reactor expand, the soonest you can have a mine done (with no scouting or probe harass) is about 6:10 if you cut marine production. Proxy oracle is in my mineral line at 5:40. DWF says the best way to deal with oracles is mines.
If they used their 2 gas and proxy pylon (the only information I can reliably scout) to go for a stalker or sentry heavy 3 gate, I get do defend it with 4 marines in a bunker, maybe a mine if they are bad. This is an auto loss either way.
What did I miss? Isn't it possible to scout the proxy in any case when you got a reaper? You should see a pylon missing, and from there the proxy spots that are close enough to your base should be scouted in time. At least that way you know if its a stargate or a robotics or just a gateway all-in. If its a stargate, don't cut marines, and I think you should have 6 by the time it arrives? I'm not sure about this, because I don't play reaper in TvP. In any case I don't think it can do that much damage before being defended by marines. After that you get a turret ASAP, if he went for multiple oracle you just kill him and if it was only 1 you shouldn't take enough damage to be behind (since you got an expand way sooner than P). If you get a reaper, your factory is later. You need 6 marines to kill an oracle. If you get a reaper, you will not have 6 marines if you made a factory. You will have 4, even with no reaper and no marine cut. Maybe 6 if the proxy is farther away or they are bad. It does't matter if they announce that they are doing proxy oracle amd tell you it is proxied in your natural. Mvp s "safe" build seems like an auto loss If they're doing that near of a proxy, you HAVE to find it. As soon as your Reaper begins smelling the hints of cheese, you look for that pylon like your life depends on it, because it does. Find it, and take it out BEFORE that super early Oracle shows up. My assumption is that the fastest possible proxy Oracle cuts either Stalker or MSC, and as a result shouldn't have the map control necessary to stop you from taking out the pylon before the Stargate can spit out the little ball of death. Upon re-checking the OP, yes, the super fast proxy timing mentioned includes a cut Stalker, which means there is no way the Protoss can prevent the destruction of his proxy if you find it in time. If, on the other hand, you have a Protoss who doesn't cut the Stalker and Warp Gate, you have enough time to get both 6 Marines and the Mine out to defend. A checklist to follow (assuming he is doing this super fast proxy build): 1. Double gas plus spare chrono? 2. No third pylon? (check all possible proxy spots) 3. No Stalker/Warp Gate research? All of the above tells you it's fast proxy Oracle play. The fact that such a proxy build is easy to recognize is probably why you don't see it as often as its deadliness would indicate. Protoss want to hide the Oracle if possible, and so they'll build a normal Stalker timing with Warp Gate, maybe even a 'fake' third pylon in the main to trick you into thinking it isn't proxied, and all that delays the Oracles enough for you to defend.
It's incredibly unsafe to try and take it out, even if you find it. Obviously want to find it in case he's really hiding a robo/twilight instead of stargate, but taking the few marines and reaper you have to go kill the pylon is most often suicide, because he can just warp in another zealot or stalker and kill your slow force out in the open. Its questionable you would even be able to kill the pylon before chronoboost if you wait for a few more marines. Better to just be ready to pull your scvs till you get 6+ marines out and a spider mine. If he goes for a super early proxy oracle like that, you will still be far ahead assuming you don't lose too many scvs.
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On April 09 2013 10:17 DeCoup wrote:
Has anyone been working on any mass mass mine builds they'd like to share? I'm a scrub so theres no way to tell if its viable at my level. But the concept seems to be drawing a bit of attention, and I was wondering if anyone has tried to refine it. I've played around a little with the idea and have realised that you want vehicle armor, burrow speed upgrade and the non bio engineering bay upgrades. I found that you eventually need vikings to deal with ranged air units, and noticed that with the upgrades I want for the mines that Ravens would add a lot if you survive that long.
I'm leaning towards mines->add vikings->add raven. I mineral dump with turrents and more bases.
Mines are only as good as it lands, two main methods.
Bait, use WMs as a death trap, if opponent a-moves their army into your drop/army/etc BOOM!! Drilling claw upgrade is optional. Ideally, opponent does not know their locations. Easy example, WM up a watchtower and place a single thor, opponent takes the bait and a-moves his 25 muta flock in for an "easy" kill, then BOOM, glorious delicious Zerg tears.
Fencing, use WMs to cut off sections of the map, in live engagements, deploying WM at the side of a ramp to prevent them from flanking your own army and/or resuppling their army.
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I don't really have any questions (so many good resources on teamliquid && especially this thread, but I just wanted to say thanks for your guy's effort it has helped me a lot.
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http://drop.sc/321071
A high diamond TvP where I actually win. Failed ugly 4 gate transition into a 49 minute 3 base collosi/high templars game........ Because my orbital was in my base for so long, I thought I built my 3rd when I actually didn't, and I lost a lot of scvs at my 4th but come on, I had 7 orbitals to his 1/2 a mining base and I was still very close to losing. Too bad I can't see how many resources I used compared to my opponent.
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On April 09 2013 00:22 Smackzilla wrote:
Is a control-group dedicated to your whole army a bad habit for Terran? Now I'm specifically talking about using a CG rather than the select-all-army button blizzard added.
The advantages seem to be:
1) Quicker changes in army movement.
2) Less likely to leave pieces of your army behind.
The disadvantages seem to be:
1) An extra CG to maintain.
2) One less CG to work with. With multi-harass, ghost, stim, raven, siege it seems hots terran really needs all the CGs it can get.
3) If using the all-army group to cast spells, you have to use next-subgroup which varies depending on unit comp and is slower than selecting a dedicated CG for the spell (e.g. stim, siege, EMP).
It's a really bad habit to use 1 control group of any kind, and you should commit at some point the practice/time to add on hotkeys until they're ground into muscle memory. However, if you are hotkeying your casters/harass separately as you commented afterwards you'll probably do okay.
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how to deal with protoss that just goes 2 base templar double forge with cannons vs drops? i try to scout him early enough so i can pull all scvs before storm, but id like another option, im just terribly far behind if i try to makro vs double forge + templar.
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EPT
