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On April 09 2013 08:46 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:18 U_G_L_Y wrote:On April 09 2013 00:05 BaaL` wrote:On April 08 2013 23:18 Tenks wrote:
Assuming I do a standard reaper FE in TvP and the Protoss does something like Stargate into Templar what is my correct job of my first 4 medivacs if the Protoss is on 2 bases. Should my only goal be to soft contain him while delaying his third and rushing my third out? Do I need to be aggressive with the drops and try and force them or should I just concede that the drops will be dealt with so I should just drop and try to kill a pylon here and there?
Thanks. Depends what happened with the stargate. If he went for phoenix, you really should not try to drop. Definitely take a quick 3rd in that case, and try to stop his. If it was a failed oracle, go ahead and attack while taking a 3rd, just make sure you retreat quickly rather than losing units and you should be able to keep him on 2 bases for a long time. In this case, there is no way for storm to be ready when your attack is hitting (around 10-10:30). If it was an oracle or VR that did a lot of damage, you probably don't have the units to fight right now and should just defend while taking a 3rd at the right time. On April 09 2013 00:00 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Using the 15 gas reactor expand, the soonest you can have a mine done (with no scouting or probe harass) is about 6:10 if you cut marine production. Proxy oracle is in my mineral line at 5:40. DWF says the best way to deal with oracles is mines.
If they used their 2 gas and proxy pylon (the only information I can reliably scout) to go for a stalker or sentry heavy 3 gate, I get do defend it with 4 marines in a bunker, maybe a mine if they are bad. This is an auto loss either way.
What did I miss? Isn't it possible to scout the proxy in any case when you got a reaper? You should see a pylon missing, and from there the proxy spots that are close enough to your base should be scouted in time. At least that way you know if its a stargate or a robotics or just a gateway all-in. If its a stargate, don't cut marines, and I think you should have 6 by the time it arrives? I'm not sure about this, because I don't play reaper in TvP. In any case I don't think it can do that much damage before being defended by marines. After that you get a turret ASAP, if he went for multiple oracle you just kill him and if it was only 1 you shouldn't take enough damage to be behind (since you got an expand way sooner than P). If you get a reaper, your factory is later. You need 6 marines to kill an oracle. If you get a reaper, you will not have 6 marines if you made a factory. You will have 4, even with no reaper and no marine cut. Maybe 6 if the proxy is farther away or they are bad. It does't matter if they announce that they are doing proxy oracle amd tell you it is proxied in your natural. Mvp s "safe" build seems like an auto loss If they're doing that near of a proxy, you HAVE to find it. As soon as your Reaper begins smelling the hints of cheese, you look for that pylon like your life depends on it, because it does. Find it, and take it out BEFORE that super early Oracle shows up. My assumption is that the fastest possible proxy Oracle cuts either Stalker or MSC, and as a result shouldn't have the map control necessary to stop you from taking out the pylon before the Stargate can spit out the little ball of death. Upon re-checking the OP, yes, the super fast proxy timing mentioned includes a cut Stalker, which means there is no way the Protoss can prevent the destruction of his proxy if you find it in time. If, on the other hand, you have a Protoss who doesn't cut the Stalker and Warp Gate, you have enough time to get both 6 Marines and the Mine out to defend. A checklist to follow (assuming he is doing this super fast proxy build): 1. Double gas plus spare chrono? 2. No third pylon? (check all possible proxy spots) 3. No Stalker/Warp Gate research? All of the above tells you it's fast proxy Oracle play. The fact that such a proxy build is easy to recognize is probably why you don't see it as often as its deadliness would indicate. Protoss want to hide the Oracle if possible, and so they'll build a normal Stalker timing with Warp Gate, maybe even a 'fake' third pylon in the main to trick you into thinking it isn't proxied, and all that delays the Oracles enough for you to defend. On Newkirk Precinct there are 4 locations to proxy a stargate. You are telling me that I have 1 and a half minutes to find the pylon (based on 4 minute scout to make sure there are 6 probes in gas) to not only find the pylon but kill it with the 4 marines I have, based on me skipping the factory? Somehow I doubt this is even possible. Maybe with 12 gas reaper then reactor, but that seems pretty imbalanced if the only way to not take heavy damage is to get lucky and find the proxy...
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On April 09 2013 16:06 teddyoojo wrote:
how to deal with protoss that just goes 2 base templar double forge with cannons vs drops? i try to scout him early enough so i can pull all scvs before storm, but id like another option, im just terribly far behind if i try to makro vs double forge + templar.
Tech to ghosts and try to deny his 3rd as long as possible with drops, while taking your own third. Put a mine at his third maybe.
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I am looking for an explanation on how to successfully transition out of bio/mine into the BC/Raven Late game. More specifically, the infrastructure/income requirements, how to know when it is a good idea, what order to get units.
Can you transition when the game is even or do you have to have done significant damage? Do you still produce bio or do you try and trade it away with drops for supply? Once you achieve the unit comp do you go friggen kill him or still play defensive/ base denial?
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I've been have trouble with zerg recently. So I want to ask you 2 question.
1) When to push out with marine/tank?
I don't know when to push out. usually I try drop when I have medivac. this is drop harass.
And push out all army when supply reached maximum.
2) Engagement Point
I try marine split and tank split slightly. not clump.
but I don't know when should I transform siege tank back to tank mode and move my troops.
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On April 10 2013 02:40 ghostH27 wrote:
I've been have trouble with zerg recently. So I want to ask you 2 question.
1) When to push out with marine/tank?
I don't know when to push out. usually I try drop when I have medivac. this is drop harass.
And push out all army when supply reached maximum.
2) Engagement Point
I try marine split and tank split slightly. not clump.
but I don't know when should I transform siege tank back to tank mode and move my troops.
You generally want to push out as you gain map control. Think of drops as tugging zerg between bases. You can either engage him where he goes or attack and prepare for his counter where he isn't. Move your troops when you win a battle (he disengages), then decide if he has enough to stop you if you continue pushing into his territory or if you should retreat.
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I was wondering what the correct response to SH is when youre going 4m? My instincts (and a few wins) tell me that i should just be dropping and exploit their immobility etc. But people tend to be going mutas first which can make this dangerous, but still possible ofc.
Im only diamond so obviously I can win just by "playing better", but it would be nice to know whether or not im on the right track, strategically speaking.
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On April 10 2013 03:10 Deepflow wrote:
I was wondering what the correct response to SH is when youre going 4m? My instincts (and a few wins) tell me that i should just be dropping and exploit their immobility etc. But people tend to be going mutas first which can make this dangerous, but still possible ofc.
Im only diamond so obviously I can win just by "playing better", but it would be nice to know whether or not im on the right track, strategically speaking.
What you said is pretty much right, exploit the immobility. Just wait for the mutas to harass or something, and then drop, or drop 2/3 locations at once. And then if they pull other units away to deal with the drops, attack the SH by landing on top of them and scanning. Perfect example by Flash against Roro. Flash vs Roro
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On April 10 2013 03:10 Deepflow wrote:
I was wondering what the correct response to SH is when youre going 4m? My instincts (and a few wins) tell me that i should just be dropping and exploit their immobility etc. But people tend to be going mutas first which can make this dangerous, but still possible ofc.
Im only diamond so obviously I can win just by "playing better", but it would be nice to know whether or not im on the right track, strategically speaking.
Hi, high master terran:
I haven't played much vs this style, but I would say that abusing the mobility of it is quite good (like you would do vs a contain in TvT). If he is skimping on overseers/rushed to it early you can get an early banshee+raven.
However on huge maps like whirlwind where he's expanding away from you, and he's covering the map with mutas you may not be able to use these options. In this case you have to either overwhelm him, or move your army around and attack him elsewhere( risky, he can just move on your base if you don't have enough at home).
Personally I feel like a tank/battle hellion transition is in order when you encounter large amounts of swarm hosts. This eliminates the problem of the widow mine cooldown being wasted by the locusts.
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Surprised to hear you havent played much against it.
Its all over mid diamond EU 
Yeah, I was considering going tanks against it. Really lose out on mobility though 
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On April 10 2013 06:31 Deepflow wrote:Surprised to hear you havent played much against it. Its all over mid diamond EU Yeah, I was considering going tanks against it. Really lose out on mobility though
You can still drop while going tanks, but you don't really need mobility because if you can push and clear the swarm hosts cost efficiently you should be ahead.
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diamond terran here.
i have enourmous trouble with TvP since ever.
is there any good replay/vod too show/learn proper matches including macro, bio micro and engagement?
also is there any map where i can train such things, like a micro trainer?
i feel total mightless as soon as a lot of chargelots and hts/colossi appear. my bio melts away without his army getting even touched. also is mech viable these days against protoss?
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Is it worth it to open with a reaper in TvP for scouting and how much difference can that 50 gas make when you want to build a factory and widow mines to defend against stargate opening?
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On April 10 2013 08:04 DifuntO wrote:
Is it worth it to open with a reaper in TvP for scouting and how much difference can that 50 gas make when you want to build a factory and widow mines to defend against stargate opening?
Yes. I'd argue that on 2 player maps, you might as well skip the SCV scout and reaper scout their base, since that is the timing you really need to see. And it really shouldn't delay that much vs. a factory opening. One of the standard openers listed in the OP has a gas FE 1/1/1 with widow mines if you want to compare timings.
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On April 10 2013 08:07 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 08:04 DifuntO wrote:
Is it worth it to open with a reaper in TvP for scouting and how much difference can that 50 gas make when you want to build a factory and widow mines to defend against stargate opening? Yes. I'd argue that on 2 player maps, you might as well skip the SCV scout and reaper scout their base, since that is the timing you really need to see. And it really shouldn't delay that much vs. a factory opening. One of the standard openers listed in the OP has a gas FE 1/1/1 with widow mines if you want to compare timings.
Ok i'll check that,thanks!
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On April 10 2013 08:07 AKomrade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 08:04 DifuntO wrote:
Is it worth it to open with a reaper in TvP for scouting and how much difference can that 50 gas make when you want to build a factory and widow mines to defend against stargate opening? Yes. I'd argue that on 2 player maps, you might as well skip the SCV scout and reaper scout their base, since that is the timing you really need to see. And it really shouldn't delay that much vs. a factory opening. One of the standard openers listed in the OP has a gas FE 1/1/1 with widow mines if you want to compare timings.
You can't skip scv scout vs protoss imo unless u wanna die to proxy gate (with cyber).
Also you wanna know if he has 3rd pylon/2gas earlier so u can send an scv so search for a potential proxy earlier.
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On April 10 2013 03:10 Deepflow wrote:
I was wondering what the correct response to SH is when youre going 4m? My instincts (and a few wins) tell me that i should just be dropping and exploit their immobility etc. But people tend to be going mutas first which can make this dangerous, but still possible ofc.
Im only diamond so obviously I can win just by "playing better", but it would be nice to know whether or not im on the right track, strategically speaking.
I'm in the group of thinking that you want a tank per swarm host. Then collect your win.
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Mid diamond terran here.
My main issue right now seems to be against 3 base ultra.
Most of my vZ games go the same way. I open 3CC hellion and am feeling pretty good about denying 4th and establishing my own 3rd. Running 5 rax, 1 starport, 1 factory by the time I get to 3base.
It just seems like my opponent drops an ultra den, builds 5-7 ultras on his 3base econ really quickly and steamrolls me with lings/ultra.
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Russian Federation6 Posts
On April 10 2013 07:52 oxnard montalvo wrote:
i have enourmous trouble with TvP since ever.
is there any good replay/vod too show/learn proper matches including macro, bio micro and engagement?
There are 5 Polt's TvP replays vs Acro and Sage from this weekends zotac cup on their site.
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On April 10 2013 13:10 saminskip wrote:
Mid diamond terran here.
My main issue right now seems to be against 3 base ultra.
Most of my vZ games go the same way. I open 3CC hellion and am feeling pretty good about denying 4th and establishing my own 3rd. Running 5 rax, 1 starport, 1 factory by the time I get to 3base.
It just seems like my opponent drops an ultra den, builds 5-7 ultras on his 3base econ really quickly and steamrolls me with lings/ultra.
Although I haven't seen the game, the problem is already apparent in your description.
On 3 bases you want to have about 7-9 rax (number differs on preference, demuslim uses 9, polt uses 8, taeja uses 7).
Either way 5 is definitely not enough. If you have more barracks then you won't get overrun, and also you will have more marauders producing out of your techlab rax.
You also want to have at least 2 factories at this point.
Ultras and lings by themselves shouldn't pose a problem if you have a well sized bio ball with medivacs and a good marauder count. Make sure that you were at least even on upgrades, as this has a big effect vs ultras.
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EPT
