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United Kingdom15 Posts
On April 10 2013 07:52 oxnard montalvo wrote:
diamond terran here.
i have enourmous trouble with TvP since ever.
is there any good replay/vod too show/learn proper matches including macro, bio micro and engagement?
also is there any map where i can train such things, like a micro trainer?
i feel total mightless as soon as a lot of chargelots and hts/colossi appear. my bio melts away without his army getting even touched. also is mech viable these days against protoss?
Im the same level as you and ive had about 50% TvP winrate since I was silver, ive just steadily improved. Tbh I think you probably know the answer to what you have to do, its just damn difficult and gets moreso as opponents improve.
Ill restate what every terran knows anyway, point out any mistakes if im wrong people but ive read this a thousand times.
Composition.
2 marines for every zealot
1 marauder for every stalker
3-4 vikings for every colossus
1 ghost for every ht
6 or so medivacs when maxed
2 ghosts for evrry archon
scan and snipe obs with vikings.
emp/snipe ht with cloaked ghosts
engages
shift queue colossi with vikings
emp archons twice
emp everything else
kite the zealots mercilessly
stop any of this to dodge storms as that takes priority over everything else.
Ive found that i dont really need to manually target colossi or kite if i got good emps on the templar, i win anyway. Although i dont know if this changes above diamond level.
Now i cant do this perfectly, but sometimes i do it successfully, and then i almost always win. Its hard but its really just a matter of practice.
Id appreciate it if anyone ciuld point out anything ive got wrong, but i think this is pretty much it.
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United Kingdom15 Posts
oh sry didnt notice u specifically asked for videos. Surely just any standard pro macro tvp would do. There are some in the op 
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I think a lot of people on this thread can benefit much more from studying pro replays in detail, rather than asking here something like "how do I beat protoss".
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Its the same for me. Diamond Terran too and I struggle so hard right now. My last TvP was on Whrilwind. I killed alot of Probes with my Rine/Mine Drop and was on 3 Base way before the Toss. I was maxed with Vikings, 3/3 Upgrades and Ghosts.
So Protoss had his usual A-Move Deathball and I scanned and tried to EMP his Templars, but he always pulled em back behind his Colossi so I couldn't do anything.
At the End I got pushed back into a Corner and got stormed to hell.
Thats the problem with TvP. I really hoped that HotS would change something with that Matchup to make it easier for Terran in lategame but its still the same shit.
TvP lategame is all about control and its way too hard for Terran compared to Protoss who has everything on 1 Hotkey and just has to storm and put his Chargelots in front.
And watching ProReplays does not help with that.
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In TvP I feel like if I dont kill them before 13-14 minutes im playing at a disadvantage. To win a lategame engagement I feel like I need perfect emps and the exact right number of vikings all while having my bio in a superior concave with equal upgrades hopefully. Although one thing that does help is ghost cloaking. Alot of plat-dia protoss arent keeping observers with their army so 5-6 cloaked ghosts can win you a battle before it has even started.
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On April 10 2013 22:17 Iorveth wrote:
Its the same for me. Diamond Terran too and I struggle so hard right now. My last TvP was on Whrilwind. I killed alot of Probes with my Rine/Mine Drop and was on 3 Base way before the Toss. I was maxed with Vikings, 3/3 Upgrades and Ghosts.
So Protoss had his usual A-Move Deathball and I scanned and tried to EMP his Templars, but he always pulled em back behind his Colossi so I couldn't do anything.
At the End I got pushed back into a Corner and got stormed to hell.
Thats the problem with TvP. I really hoped that HotS would change something with that Matchup to make it easier for Terran in lategame but its still the same shit.
TvP lategame is all about control and its way too hard for Terran compared to Protoss who has everything on 1 Hotkey and just has to storm and put his Chargelots in front.
And watching ProReplays does not help with that.
How does that not help? In the OP there are specific examples of what to do in many situations versus Protoss, plus cited pro games that exemplify that particular build or technique.
Could it be with what you're looking for in the replays/VoDs? It also might help to distinguish between a replay that you can watch yourself (giving the ability to see the first-person perspective minus mouse actions of the player) and a VoD where you rely on the in-game observer to show relevant details.
Some of the things I look for in VoDs:
- what is being produced when: for example, when does Ghost production start? What time is Widow Mine production abandoned in favour of add-ons and tech?
- timing of key positional maneouvres: when does the player pull SCVs? Has the observer shown me what the two players see so that I can judge what prompted the call? Is there a typical scout timing that always precedes the decision to build or not build extra Bunkers/Turrets?
- upgrade timings: when does 1-1 start? Is it early or delayed double E-bay? Single into double?
Some of the things I look for/do in replays:
- quick watch of the replay at x2 or x4 from 1st-person perspective, slowing down for relevant engagements/micro (production tab open to keep an eye on SCVs and infrastructure)
- normal-speed review of big battles requiring lots of micro
- x4 or x8 watch of the replay from opponent perspective: what looks scary from the Protoss side when it actually isn't? What actually is vulnerable when?
- x4 or x8 watch of the replay, focusing entirely on minimap: who controls space and for how much time?
How I apply this in my own games:
- 1st step: review fundamentals/mechanics: was my SCV production fairly constant? If not, make that priority #1 for next game, ignoring all but the most critical other errors
- 2nd step: before the key engagement or positioning error, was I at upgrade equality? Base equality? Comparable army size?
- 3rd step: based on step 2, was there something I could have done in the 5 minutes of game time or so before that point that LED to my disadvantage in the key moment?
- 4th step: if step 3 is negative, how did I engage? Did I hit my EMPs? Target the Colossi? Kite the Zealots? (NB: in that order of importance) If the answer to any of those questions is 'no', and I lost the game there or shortly thereafter, what could have been adjusted at that key moment to change the outcome of the battle? If no, how do I identify that so I can retreat and/or buy time to arrive at a more beneficial situation?
- 5th step: compare my game and the pro game - what looks similar? What is different? Is it a question of mechanics or decision-making? If mechanics, grinding is the solution; if decision-making, finding a practice partner or 'taking command' of replays can help to find better reactions.
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this matchup is like that  On a high level play where macro and especially micro is outstanding you are on even footing. But on a lower level level of play when your micro will slip a bit as a terran you are just a walking ball of meat waiting to be stormed. You just didnt emp 1 templar and micro back half of your army is decimated.
I already gived up and play mech vs P. It ok if you are good at macro and you have to look at his comp alot. And there are also great oportiunities for harras. Hellion drop, helbat drop, mine drop, hellion run, cloack banshee and raven hsm on probes.
When P is not carefull he can lose a game quickly without his precious probes.
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On April 10 2013 15:33 Bulugulu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 13:10 saminskip wrote:
Mid diamond terran here.
My main issue right now seems to be against 3 base ultra.
Most of my vZ games go the same way. I open 3CC hellion and am feeling pretty good about denying 4th and establishing my own 3rd. Running 5 rax, 1 starport, 1 factory by the time I get to 3base.
It just seems like my opponent drops an ultra den, builds 5-7 ultras on his 3base econ really quickly and steamrolls me with lings/ultra. Although I haven't seen the game, the problem is already apparent in your description. On 3 bases you want to have about 7-9 rax (number differs on preference, demuslim uses 9, polt uses 8, taeja uses 7). Either way 5 is definitely not enough. If you have more barracks then you won't get overrun, and also you will have more marauders producing out of your techlab rax. You also want to have at least 2 factories at this point. Ultras and lings by themselves shouldn't pose a problem if you have a well sized bio ball with medivacs and a good marauder count. Make sure that you were at least even on upgrades, as this has a big effect vs ultras.
I would like to clarify this better.
Ultras get 6 armor when fully upgraded
Lings get 8 attack when fully upgraded
Without upgrades marines deal 1/2 damage to ultras
Without upgrades marines die in 9 hits (8 if you stim) to zerglings (and cracklings hit FAST)
With upgrades marines deal 3 damage to ultras [600% more damage than zero upgrades]
With upgrades marines die in 11 (10 if you stim) hits to zerglings [19% increased retention compared to zero upgrades]
You deal 6x the damage and you last 20~% longer (actually more since the longer you live the more lings die) which are much bigger numbers than what the +3/+3 shows.
Getting 3/3 is the most important late game tactic in TvZ if you're going bio. Your army just can't survive otherwise.
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So i'm recently getting back to sc2, i've watched some HotS but i still feel kind of lost in TvZ. Assuming i did a standard expo, what are some good timings/unit counts to start pressuring the zerg with? Are 3rd base and double ebay timings still similar?
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On April 11 2013 00:39 ImperialTea wrote:
So i'm recently getting back to sc2, i've watched some HotS but i still feel kind of lost in TvZ. Assuming i did a standard expo, what are some good timings/unit counts to start pressuring the zerg with? Are 3rd base and double ebay timings still similar?
Diamond Terran here so take the advice as you will. Most standard unit composition right now is bio mine. Mines allow you to be pretty greedy all game so I like to be active with drops the entire game while securing expos and getting my double upgrades. The strongest timing is still a 2-2 push before the zerg hits his hive tech. At any league below diamond, this will usually win you the game. Hope this helped.
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it's simple... you can leave your base if you have medivac.... and you can leave your base when you can remake your army quickly to defend an counter agression.
That's the rule..
1) Leave safe (with medivac)
or
2) Leave when you can remake it quickly.
I usually leave when i have 2 medivac, and i start pushing when i have 3 bases.
but depends on your/his build... if you make more than 8 hellion u're safe to go... if you doing mines u're safe to go too...
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On April 11 2013 01:44 iamhope wrote:
it's simple... you can leave your base if you have medivac.... and you can leave your base when you can remake your army quickly to defend an counter agression.
That's the rule..
1) Leave safe (with medivac)
or
2) Leave when you can remake it quickly.
I usually leave when i have 2 medivac, and i start pushing when i have 3 bases.
but depends on your/his build... if you make more than 8 hellion u're safe to go... if you doing mines u're safe to go too...
Ok thanks for the answer, basically my question was more along the lines of "it is still suicide to push into the zerg's bases before 10mins?". Seems like pressure before the 2-2 push is a lot more viable right now.
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A very solid and popular TvZ opening now is reaper expand (2 reapers) into reactor hellions (like 6), and then make mines, so you can be really aggressive.. deny creep, third, kill zerglings/queens.
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@ImperialTea pushes before 10 min can definitely work, but expand behind it.
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Does anyone have the hard-set BO that Byun used in TvP where he basically opens 12/12 Reaper, Reactor, CC, Rax, Tech, Ebay, Medivacs? I've been trying to do it but I always feel like I'm just winging it with gas timings and when to drop the ebay and get +1. Doesn't have to be Byun's build exactly but something similar to that would give me that general early/mid game would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Russian Federation36 Posts
Is MMM viable vs marinetanks?
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I try to mech all matchups. What's the best way to deal with Roach/Hydra/Swarmhost? Ravens?
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On April 11 2013 06:22 NyanOverlord wrote:
Is MMM viable vs marinetanks?
Yes. But you gotta make sure to target tanks with your marauders otherwise you get shredded and do drops and stuff (both on his base to damage economy and on tanks if you see them undefended). However I would hasten to add that I think mech is better against marine/tank.
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On April 11 2013 06:31 Pobearo wrote:
I try to mech all matchups. What's the best way to deal with Roach/Hydra/Swarmhost? Ravens?
You should also have to deal with vipers if the zerg knows what they are doing. Ravens can be good but vikings counter vipers easier and tanks are the counter to swarm hosts. Go super tank heavy, some hellbats to sponge damage and vikings/ravens when vipers come out. Make sure to keep dropping hellions/hellbats/mines to disrupt their economy. The key thing is to keep up enough bases so you don't get just outswarmed by this composition, and once you see the SH undefended (pull their units out of position with hellion runbys etc) then go and kill them. But this composition is hard for mech to fight, much of it will come down to macro and picking the right position and time to engage. Bio right now is stronger against zerg, but if you wanna play mech going tank heavy is the key in my opinion. Hope I helped.
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EPT
