On May 23 2010 16:03 mousepad wrote: ... Not saying its the right thing to do, but I just don't think we should expect huge changes with the release date around the corner.
Point is well made... adding new animations/models could ruin the stability of the game even more than Bnet2 is managing to. It just really concerns me that the game seems to have gotten worse over the last 4 patches.
Definitely the absolutely wrong direction for the Ultralisk to go. It's a tank, not a DPS dealer so don't reduce its HP. It can't get to the enemy units before dying so don't reduce its HP.
On May 23 2010 13:43 MasterAsia wrote: Compare stim and frenzy: stim gives every unit 2 times DPS and they move faster, on a single action, at a cost of less than 1/5 hp. Frenzy gives ONE unit 1.3 times DPS and immune to zerg spells mainly, at a cost of 25 energy.
I don't mean that frenzy should be as good as stim, but my point is that spells like stim are what is really considered useful.
On May 23 2010 15:03 0neder wrote: Clearly Blizzard needs to get a clue and hire real pro-level players to do in-house testing.
They were smart enough to hire Nick Plott for Blizzcon casting, so why can't they get it for players? David Kim and Matt "cowgomoo" Cooper are great, but not top level.
If Matt Cooper actually was CowGoMoo, you might be on to something!
I don't like DPS ultra, + spells copy pasted from WC3 don't really have a place in SC2 imo as frenzy just doesn't cut it...that said, more testing and mathcraft is definitely eneded
imo the logic behind frenzy buff is obvious and justified.
infestor is for FG + NP.
however, if your infestors are idle sitting around defending your expo with 200 energy the 25 energy spammable spell giving +25% damage would see some use... why the hell would anyone NOT use it?
don't be rediculous with the area of effect frenzy idea, that would HAVE to be balanced with 150+ energy cost, which would be crap compared to fungal.
frenzy is irrefutably more useful than infested terran, so why the hell do people complain?
i can already see the swing in matchups where the zerg has a few corruptors & infestors on the field and he can quite easily make the front line of enemies take 20% more damage and make a group of zerg units deal 25% more damage.
back on the ultralisk topic, the hp is undoubtedly a massive nerf. but they now have the highest dps versus armored in the entire game - without even considering upgrades or frenzy. blizzard want banelings to own light units, therefore it was broken that the ultralisk did the same as banelings except he had 600 hp.
with the recent change, the ultralisk is basically a beefed up immortal. therefore you should use the ultralisk like a beefed up immortal, instead of this 'tank' idea which has carried over from broodwar.
immortals get owned by marauders, ultralisks get owned by marauders, how many noobs does it take to upload a movie to youtube demonstrating this before people start to understand?
On May 23 2010 16:31 tarsier wrote: imo the logic behind frenzy buff is obvious and justified.
infestor is for FG + NP.
however, if your infestors are idle sitting around defending your expo with 200 energy the 25 energy spammable spell giving +25% damage would see some use... why the hell would anyone NOT use it?
don't be rediculous with the area of effect frenzy idea, that would HAVE to be balanced with 150+ energy cost, which would be crap compared to fungal.
frenzy is irrefutably more useful than infested terran, so why the hell do people complain?
i can already see the swing in matchups where the zerg has a few corruptors & infestors on the field and he can quite easily make the front line of enemies take 20% more damage and make a group of zerg units deal 25% more damage.
back on the ultralisk topic, the hp is undoubtedly a massive nerf. but they now have the highest dps versus armored in the entire game - without even considering upgrades or frenzy. blizzard want banelings to own light units, therefore it was broken that the ultralisk did the same as banelings except he had 600 hp.
with the recent change, the ultralisk is basically a beefed up immortal. therefore you should use the ultralisk like a beefed up immortal, instead of this 'tank' idea which has carried over from broodwar.
immortals get owned by marauders, ultralisks get owned by marauders, how many noobs does it take to upload a movie to youtube demonstrating this before people start to understand?
First post I hate and love, I can see what your going at and I personally think this is kinda spot on. I can be wrong in saying that though :S
On May 23 2010 16:47 Noise wrote: So if Ultras are good against armored, why do they get raped by Marauders? Why should they? And what should they be good against?
Exactly... HOW bout we give Mutalisks +25 damage vs thor derrr..... since they dont just melt instantly. OR do they?.. lets ask blizzard they seem to understand the game. not.
Frenzy does not belong in SC either. Altho I think blizzard was right in realizing that ultras need something to be able to deal with Thor cannon ability. Because its an instant win nothing you can do against it before. Meanwhile thors Dont need anything against NP because tanks can snipe Infestor .. and you could make ghosts which would be a really good idea with mass thor. So Terran has all these options and counters set up right... but Zerg really got left with no smart way to deal with anything other than these guidelines for every fight basically:
1. Outmass weee! 2. abuse the mobility of zerg units 3. dont get caught fighting in bad positions
Obviously Frenzy is not the answer. It does not give any more creative options other than still doing 1. 2. and 3. Instead they should have just made Thor cannon ability cause your thor to have to recharge a little before doing anything so at least our ultras can die as meat while burrowed roaches can get in a few free hits first.
Make Ultra T2 and cheaper with how useless it is. and switch infestor to T3 and make it have one more really good spell. or a consume .. maybe a darkswarm that can only be cast over itself with 0 range. then there would be a reason to use burrow movement on infestors... but right now i see none
On May 23 2010 14:33 Twinweapon wrote: They did the hp nerf because there testers are good enough to bring queens to the battle and transfuse the Ultras while giving them the Frenzy ability. This was suppose to make the game more micro intensive for zerg as many players had complaints about how little micro was required. Now it requires quite a bit of micro and macro to pull it off.
Let's play a game. How many support units does the Ultralisk need before it becomes a useful unit?
Hey guys, I don't know if you know this but 3 zealots actually take out and ultra lol.
Ultras are totally useful, now the protoss just need to make zealots instead of sentrys. I'm not saying "hey guys look ultras don't counter tier 1 light units anymore". All I'm saying is, every protoss player has the means to build zealots, and if just a few zealots are enough to counter X ultras cost efficiently, why bother going for TIER 3 ultra at all?
The terran... Well I guess I don't even have to call that.
On May 23 2010 13:27 travis wrote: anyone who defends all the changes has no clue at sc, these single target buff/debuff spells have absolutely no place in SC style gameplay
Defense Matrix and Shield Battery are two examples of buffs from the original. Think of Frenzy as a Defense Matrix and maybe you won't have to stress out about nothing so much
Blizzard know's what they are doing. The fact that people seem to think they can balance the game better than a company who has made Starcraft, WC3, and WoW, baffles me.
WC3 is not balanced after 8 years. Undead is useless vs Orc at top level. From what I here, WoW has awful balance (its a mmorpg so who cares). SC:BW is balanced because of Korean map design, not because of Blizzard.
On May 23 2010 13:23 Backpack wrote: They are just changing things around to see how they work. They don't know if it will be a nerf or a buff until we, the beta testers, test it.
Blizzard know's what they are doing. The fact that people seem to think they can balance the game better than a company who has made Starcraft, WC3, and WoW, baffles me.
Lol WC3 and WoW , what terrible games to reference in terms of balance.
On May 23 2010 19:48 Stationary wrote: Hey guys, I don't know if you know this but 3 zealots actually take out and ultra lol.
Ultras are totally useful, now the protoss just need to make zealots instead of sentrys. I'm not saying "hey guys look ultras don't counter tier 1 light units anymore". All I'm saying is, every protoss player has the means to build zealots, and if just a few zealots are enough to counter X ultras cost efficiently, why bother going for TIER 3 ultra at all?
The terran... Well I guess I don't even have to call that.
Only if you assume zealots will be perfectly surrounding the ultra. In a realistic situation, where splash hits at least one other, the ultra comes out at about 40% hp.
On May 23 2010 19:48 Stationary wrote: Hey guys, I don't know if you know this but 3 zealots actually take out and ultra lol.
Ultras are totally useful, now the protoss just need to make zealots instead of sentrys. I'm not saying "hey guys look ultras don't counter tier 1 light units anymore". All I'm saying is, every protoss player has the means to build zealots, and if just a few zealots are enough to counter X ultras cost efficiently, why bother going for TIER 3 ultra at all?
The terran... Well I guess I don't even have to call that.
Only if you assume zealots will be perfectly surrounding the ultra. In a realistic situation, where splash hits at least one other, the ultra comes out at about 40% hp.
Add in multiple ultras hitting multiple zealots, I'm pretty sure that the advantage scales up as the ultralisks numbers increase as opposed to the zealots.
Ultras are totally useful, now the protoss just need to make zealots instead of sentrys. I'm not saying "hey guys look ultras don't counter tier 1 light units anymore". All I'm saying is, every protoss player has the means to build zealots, and if just a few zealots are enough to counter X ultras cost efficiently, why bother going for TIER 3 ultra at all?
The terran... Well I guess I don't even have to call that.
What this also shows is that with some unit micro lesser units can take out seemingly impossible units(given the composition). If I remember correctly this is something that everyone loved about sc1 and have been clamoring for to have in sc2. Mission accomplished. So I see this as a good thing although in some ways it seems kind of ridic but in the same way three marines properly microed could take out one lurker in sc1 which also was kind of ridiculous, although very nice to watch.
guys stop following the really typical 'westerner' logic.
the reason the asian's are so far ahead is because they look at a unit stat/abilities laterally.
asian's DO NOT go "WTF NOW ULTRA IS EVEN WORSE AGAINST MARAUDER WTF BLIZZ!!!! I ALWAYS MASS ULTRAS IN ORDER TO BEAT MARAUDER BECAUSE I THINK THAT IF I MAKE ENOUGH I WILL EVENTUALLY WIN, BUT IT NEVER WORKS!!!!! WTFFFFFF!".
if terran is massing marauder/marine then you need a force composing primarily of banelings and hydras.
btw 2-3 stimmed marauders can own an immortal (depends on who gets the first shot), so immortal is not a counter to marauder either. it's more complex than "that guy does bonus against armor. therefore i should be able to A-move and beat other armored guys for same resource cost full stop".
EPT
