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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
I think most important change to terran of everything is to buff vulture harass (vs protoss). I think you shuld consider these two changes (both of them): - Damage to light units increased from 18 to 20. - Vulture cost changed from 100/0 to 75/25. +Rework of PF. Open up ways to harass in PvT and ZvT in mid/late will make these mus much better. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
- Make Rift cheaper to research or maybe even start with it. This is to promote earlier map presence for P, mainly vs Z. Yeh just let them start with it, and see what happens then. Btw if you choose the nydus at hive rather than my suggestion, will it receive some kind of compensation buff? maybe faster build time? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
On March 11 2013 06:32 Xiphias wrote: If you introduce tempest (please don't) , it MUST be very different from the HoTS one. No sick range. A true Capital ship with decent dps. Preferably different attack from air to ground. The problem is, however. Toss has no need for more splash anti-air. Crossairs and scouts fill the anti-air for toss just fine. The Tempest should be good at anti-ground I guess... ah.... so hard to replace the carrier. Such a symbol of greatness.... If you introduce tempest, please don't call it tempest lol, it just give negative associations, and yeh no sick range, mech shouldn't be forced to engage, that just creates a terrible gameplay (like should have same range as goliath with upgrade maybe) So with AOE damage and no long range, what is even the point of calling it tempest? - Fungal + Plague can get some small buff. Maybe larger AoE. Just to promote the enemy to spread out even more. Yeh I think fungal could benefit form larger AOE. To get a low risk/small benefit situation (to minimize volatility) I don't think increasing AOE radius of plague is the correct choice. Rather consider reducing energy cost to 100. I still don't think anyone will clump up their armies against plague - But too often I can get away with ahving clumped bio units cus my oponents infestors have less energy than 125. - Maybe add the Reaper to allow earlier map presence for Terran. (I play with some possible concepts for this unit) There are two reasons why I prefer the bio-hellion over the reaper; 1) The reaper doesn't syngergize well bio other bio units (unlike the hellion). 2) The reaper is very difficult to balance. What is your reasoning for choosing reaper over bio-hellion (besides potential consistensy issues) ? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I think most important change to terran of everything is to buff vulture harass (vs protoss). I think you shuld consider these two changes (both of them): - Damage to light units increased from 18 to 20. - Vulture cost changed from 100/0 to 75/25. These sound like resonable changes to the Vulture IF I keep it... @Tempest + Show Spoiler + If you introduce tempest (please don't) , it MUST be very different from the HoTS one. No sick range. A true Capital ship with decent dps. Preferably different attack from air to ground. The problem is, however. Toss has no need for more splash anti-air. Crossairs and scouts fill the anti-air for toss just fine. The Tempest should be good at anti-ground I guess... ah.... so hard to replace the carrier. Such a symbol of greatness.... If you introduce tempest, please don't call it tempest lol, it just give negative associations, and yeh no sick range, mech shouldn't be forced to engage, that just creates a terrible gameplay (like should have same range as goliath with upgrade maybe) So with AOE damage and no long range, what is even the point of calling it tempest? Why such hate for the Tempest? It will probably be the same cost, same HP, same BT as Carriers. NOT 2000 range. Maybe 12? Decent splash damage, esepcially vs ground. The Carrier in it's current form, and in it's BW form, is horrible, Yes it is an iconic unit. It is a cool concept. But it is a deathball unit due to the way interceptors work. - It can not attack an enemy army alone. (Because few interceptors die like flies) - It can not attack enemy fortified positions alone. (Because few interceptors die like flies...) - It encourages the enemy player to keep his army in a deathball. (Because interceptors die like flies...) - It is only useful when massable. All or nothing. (Because few interceptors die like flies...) - Interceptors cover the entire screen and it messes with the enemy units AI. (Because MANY interceptors is annoying) :p The only solution I see to the unit is to make interceptors invulnerable. But it would go against the Starcraft tradition and people would be like "uhm.. whats going on? O_o" Convince me why the Carrier is such a wonderful unit that promotes great game play. If you do, I might reconsider this. @Nydus Btw if you choose the nydus at hive rather than my suggestion, will it receive some kind of compensation buff? maybe faster build time? I am actually not a fan of Nydus worm at all, since I am not convinced that it adds enough positive things to the gameplay. So I am not sure what to do with it. @Plague If Plague cost 100 it might be very brutal. One infestor can cast two at a time, which will often cover the entire army. Unless I reduce the AoE quite a lot of course. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
Not sure how much you have followed HOTS, but toss skydeathball is quite boring and everyone hates the tempest. So please choose another name. Oh yeh, could you cosinder buffing banelings slightly? Like a small increase in AOE radius or just AOE damage buff? I think nydus with supply cap will guarantee more multitasking/less deathball'ing (no?). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
There are two reasons why I prefer the bio-hellion over the reaper; 1) The reaper doesn't syngergize well bio other bio units (unlike the hellion). 2) The reaper is very difficult to balance. What is your reasoning for choosing reaper over bio-hellion (besides potential consistensy issues) ? I share your suggestion that we discussed over PM, so my reply get into the right context for the readers. Hider suggested Terran to look something like this; Marine Hellion - Hellbat "Engineer." (Matrix and some other potential abilities) Ghost Vulture - Spider mine Tank Goliath Medivac instead of Dropship 1) I think it would feel very strange to have the Hellion in the barrack. 2) Hellion and Vulture would overlap too much. 3) I fear that the Medivac would actually lead to more deathball play, and NOT to more spread out harassment. (I know we have discussed this via PM) My suggestion for Terran looks like this: - Marine - Reaper with spider mines - Medic OR "Engineer" (Matrix + Heal + some other potential abilities) - Ghost - Hellion/Hellbat - Tank - Goliath OR modified* Thor - Viking - Dropship - Banshee - Science Vessel - BC This would: - Give Terran more early game map presence via the Reaper (plus give it a broader use later in the game via the mines.) - T would get an additional harassment option with the Reaper - The Hellion would encourage more army splitting and micro, compared to the Vulture - Hellion/Hellbat is a more interesting dynamic than the pure Firebat - This would make bio + mech combinations more useful vs P and T. - T would STILL have a fast unit with Spider mines + a tanky unit that deal splash damage in the game. Nothing is lost. It is just a rearrangement. And balance changes most be done to this. Longer research time for spider mines, no speed upgrade for Reapers etc. Again, this is a concept and not sure it will be in the game. I am tempted since on paper I think it would lead to better gameplay. But as usual, I bring it here so you can discuss potential flaws with my suggestions. (And Hiders suggestion above, but I think he will make a post where he argues for his statement further.) *MODIFIED THOR + Show Spoiler + It is as in SC2. But it has a new ability. When activated, it deals X damage to ALL units around it in a circle. BOOM! So, spread them out! This combined with Siege tanks overkill would still make mech be positional and spread out. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jlnl7hh.jpg) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Oh yeh forgot to add it should be combined with maximum energy of 150 of the infestor. Dont think it needs 200 energy? Not sure how much you have followed HOTS, but toss skydeathball is quite boring and everyone hates the tempest. So please choose another name. Oh yeh, could you cosinder buffing banelings slightly? Like a small increase in AOE radius or just AOE damage buff? I think nydus with supply cap will guarantee more multitasking/less deathball'ing (no?). I have not followed HoTS much at all. Barely watched any streams or any VODS. So I have no negative associations with it :p (I did watch some games from the tournament this weekend though. But players used mostly WoL units anyways) If it looks like a Tempest, flies like a Tempest, sounds like a Tempest... People expect it to be named Tempest. Unless I find another model for it. I think a name change would be strange. I considered to rename the Scout to Sentinel. (Name by XiA!) But I never did cause I think players would just call it Scout anyway :p Baneling, ah I forogt to add it to the list! Is a buff what it needs? Some players want me to nerf it or even remove it (I am looking at you Danko!) Nydus with a supply cap, well.. please explain it further how it could be IF the Nydus becomes a Hive unit. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
Hellion and Vulture would overlap too much. Well they work somewhat similarly, but they the main difference is that one unit synergizes well with bio units (hellion). The other doesn't (vulture). Though I would agree that it doesn't make sense to have both hellion and vulture at factory tech, but with hellion at rax tech, bio players will mix in hellion/hellbat (or firebat), and mech builds vulture - so in that sense they don't really overlap, as there never will be any situation in the game where you flip a coin in deciding whether to build hellion or the vulture. It will always be obvious which unit is the better. Also regarding reaper with mines; - Mech needs spider mines - Bio doesn't need spider mines. So I don't think you can remove the vulture and replace it with factorytech hellions (unless you give the hellion spider mines...). Give Terran more early game map presence via the Reaper This only makes sense if you remove medi's from the game. If medis stays then terran will still have map presense in the early game. - Hellion/Hellbat is a more interesting dynamic than the pure Firebat Indeed. I guess people will incorporate a lot of bio/hellion builds, but the introduction of the hellion at factory tech also makes reaper kinda unnessary. In WOL the reaper partly didn't have a role because the hellion was superior in most ways. ------------------------ Just thought about the reaper suggestion again. I guess at 50/50 cost it actually makes sense to get a mixture of reapers and hellions as a mech player because you can afford the high gas cost of reapers (unlike in WOL), which will mean that you use hellions for harass and reapers for setting up mines (and assisting with harass). The problem I see with that approach is that I believe it will result in weaker harass (compared to my suggestion to the vulture). LIke imagine this: You build 10 vultures in the midgame --> Cost 750/250. You set up a lot of mines and then you "suicide them into harass". Compared to this; You build 5 hellions and 5 repaers in the midgame --> Cost 750/250. You set up mines with reapers while trying to harass with hellions. The hellions easily get countered by stalkers though, so you wait for your reapers to join the hellions. Will that kind of harass be stronger than the 10 vulture harass? I doubt that as reapers needs to be weaker in combat than a vulture due to its cliff jumping. You may argue that you can send your reapers into the main in order to force the opponents stalker up there, but the problem is that 1 cannon at each base + a slightly spread out army easily can defend 5 hellions and 5 reapers seperately. Furthermore you won't benefit from the same upgrades, which makes 5 hellion + 5 reaper harass even weaker. Remember as well that hellions were actually terrible at harassing against a prepared opponent in WOL/HOTS, but terrans did it anyway as they had an excess of minerals. In Starbow this isn't the case, which means that players will be less incentivized to suicide hellions into harass. For harass to be worthwhile you didn't need to be cost effective in WOL/HOTS. In starbow you typically need to trade better than 1:1 in order for the harass to be considered succesful, and I think vultures are better at being cost efficient than hellions on a reliable basis. So even assuming you manage to balance the reaper correctly, it will probably result in harass being weaker compared to my suggestion. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
Lastly, if this change is combined with removal of seperation of bio and mech upgrades, then it willl probably be quite awesome as terran will have more early game options. But getting stats correct will be very challenging and I fear that the reaper may have the same effect on Starbow as in WOL (like either it is OP or useless). Coud you tell us a bit upon which stats you will give the reaper and the hellion/hellbat? Though regarding the hellbat at factory tech. The unit is awfully designed in HOTS (a-move unit) and most players doesn't like it. It requires zero skill to use, both from a mechanical and decisionmaking aspect. I suggested it as a biological tanky unit as it would work a bit better with stim and incentivize micro if you had to block pathes in order to protect your vulnerable marines. But as a mech-unit I hate it. If you go through with the changes please don't give hellions that transformation ability. Regarding nydus, if you set a maximum of X supply at each nydus worm, then players can't put their whole armies through the netork, which means it will be less all'insh. Now if the cost of the network is reduced, then players will still be incentivized to build it which will increase multitasking (?). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Also regarding reaper with mines; - Mech needs spider mines - Bio doesn't need spider mines. Well, thats the thing I wanna change with Terran. Not make it only be pure mech or pure bio. Rather make barack, factory and starport offer dynamic units that work well solo and together. In BW, Terran need mainly two units vs Protoss and Terran: Vulture + Siege tanks as the core army. A large part of the Terran arsenal never saw play in TvT or TvP. Hopefully this change can lead to more unit compositions, combinations and different build orders. Coud you tell us a bit upon which stats you will give the reaper and the hellion/hellbat? It is hard to say exact stats. It probably will need some testing in the Unit Tester and take many games to fine tune it. Some things I will try to be carefulI with: - Spider mines can not be researched too fast since the Reaper has a "built-in dropship." Not fun if 8+ Reapers can attack at the 6 minute mark and flood the enemy base with spider mines. GG. (But I imagine it can be fun combat situations when 1-2 Reapers with spider mines attack quite early... Hmm.. It is a fine line to find..) - Since Reapers will likely cost 50/50 and require tech lab, I imagine it will be hard to reach huge numbers early, due to the lower income in Starbow. - Spider mine might get longer burrow time and some other modifications. (Which some players have requested anyway.) - Since there will likely be no Reaper speed upgrade, I imagine that Hydras/Zerglings + Stalkers + Hellions will be able to chase early Reapers decently well. - I must be careful not to make Hellions too strong vs Zerg early. (Since Zerg generally have fewer units now than in WoL early) But again, this is just a concept. When I wake up tomorrow maybe this thread is filled with reasons why this is a bad idea. I just think that this line-up, in theory, would promote the gameplay I want to strengthen: more multitasking, more harassment, more synergy between bio/mech etc. But as a mech-unit I hate it. If you go through with the changes please don't give hellions that transformation ability. If there is something problematic with the HoTS version of it, lets identify what it is so it can be properly adjusted. I think the transformation is what makes the Hellion interesting - more versatility, uses, decision etc. Regarding nydus, if you set a maximum of X supply at each nydus worm, then players can't put their whole armies through the netork, which means it will be less all'insh. Now if the cost of the network is reduced, then players will still be incentivized to build it which will increase multitasking (?). Yeah that might be worth a try. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9368 Posts
Basically I feel like if you remove the vulture, then the hellion + reaper combination (5 vulture + 5 reapers) should be at least as good as 10 vultures if well microed. Reaper stats idea Reapers damage? What about 5+ 2 vs light? That will make them a bit better vs armored units (4 in WOL) and sligthly worse vs light units (9 in WOL). Movement speed: 3.25 (?)) Should nitro speed upgrade still be in the game? D8 charges? I think that will give terran players a chance to harass against a protoss player that has like 3-4 cannons at each base in the late game. 3-4 cannons counter hellions/vultures pretty well, and as I don't think statis structures should completely deny harass, this could be a decent idea. Regarding tempest; I think replacing the tempest with the carrier will be an extremely unpopular decision, and will result in potential former BW players not being willing to try out Starbow. The vulture --> Reaper/hellion change is also extremely dangerous in that regard. By cutting all ties with BW your basically setting the mod up to compete with Onegoal as well, which may or may not be a good idea. I mean maybe it is a good idea to differentiate Starbow from BW, as former BW players would prefer sc2bw anyway (?). But if you make this a long-range splash damage unit, wouldn't that work similarly to the collosus? I think the key is to not make the "tempest" a very strong a-move unit, and I don't know exactly how you plan to make it require skill to use this unit? Also remember that this change will require some kind of change to goliaths/vikings. Hellbat I don't think there is really any way to make this unit interesting, and implementing this unit could potentially make mech OP anyway. Basically everytime a HOTS player transform his hellions into hellbats, it now takes less skill for the terran player to win, which I think is bad game design. I also really don't think a short-range combat unit is neccesary? Personally I prefer when you try to micro bio units by kiting or splitting them. I guesss there is a bit of use vs dark swarm though, but even that feels like a mess. Like I can't even see whats going on when 3-4 firebats are put into that green thing - Its just very spectator unfriendly, and requires little skill to use it. Rather I think we try to think about giving hellions something else? Especially since I also suggest to remove blue flame upgrade as I believe it makes speedlings/zealots completely useless. Any creative ideas? Scourges + Science Vessels + Dropships I think the scource buff will be an indirect nerf to Scicence vessels, which is kinda problematic at the moment, as it seems like you almost always ( in tvz) wants to prioritize SV's over dropships. However, I am not sure the change is enough. I think further changes might be needed, such as the below: Reduce Starport cost while increasing SV supply from 2 to 3 --> Players will now be more incentivized to build starports earlier and get multiple starports which at the moment is dificult to afford in the mid game. However, the 50% increase in supply of the SV will accomplish two things; 1) An indirect mineral cost increase of Sciense vessels (as you have to build more supply depots ealier). 2) A nerf to massing SV's late game as your maxed army is signifcantly weaker. This change will definitely cause players to add more dropships into the mix. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Little reward, high risk. Why people think the carrier is important: 1. The carrier is iconic. 2. The carrier is hard to micro (the BW version). So hard, that it has a very high skill-cap which makes for exciting gameplay. 3. Tempest should add entertainment and skillfull play, which will be hard to design. Protoss is the race which is most likely and benefit the most from forming a death-ball, even without the carrier, so I don't really see the reason for them having a unit to make sure their oppodent do not have a deathball. They already have plenty of those units; Storm, stasis, nullifier (I guess....) The terran 200/200 mech is not a "death-ball" because it cannot a-move (unless you are really far ahead, and then all armies should be able to a-move anyways). In conclusion. I don't think the tempest will add much, since it is a late-game unit anyways and removing the carrier might remove more players (not talking aboutmyself). It might be a good idea balance-wise and on paper, but the reward might be outweigthed by its consiquenses. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I agree the bases might be too close together. If we (I can, if you want me to Kabel  ) could ask the map-maker to make a SB version with the 4 middle bases replaced by a large center base (like andromada) and no forced cross spawns, it think this could be a decent map. We need maps with many ridges and bases, and easily defendable naturals to explore the late-game of SB.Right now it is too easy to turtle, but if those 4 in the middle were gone, I think it could work. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
There will always be players who will not like Starbow for various reasons. What I look at is to promote enjoyable game play, no matter if the content is from BW, SC2 or made up. - Will the game be funnier, deeper, more interesting etc with the changes I have in mind? This is of course pure theorycrafting. The way it is executed in the game is the way that matters. But some ideas have more potential on paper than others. Example: To replace the Zealot with the Colossus as starting unit would be a bad idea in many ways and probably not lead to a better game, no matter how much I try to tweak the balance. That is why I share my Terran idea here before I change anything in the game. I need to find a concept that has the potential to be more interesting/better than the current line-up of Terran units. When somethng that feels more interesting is found, I will bring that concept into the editor and try to balance it into the game. If you see flaws with my suggestion, please continue to question it! @Tempest/carrier If I could I would remove interceptors and instead add a projectile attack that deals splash damage on impact to the Carrier. But that would just look silly. Thats why I aim to introduce the Tempest instead. Speed/cost/HP/range quite similar to the Carrier. Again, I aim to look for improvements for the game that is true. Would the Tempest lead to the gameplay I want to improve? If the answear is no, for varios reasons, I will not include it. I think the best argument against it so far is that Carriers have their unique form of micro. | ||
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M05513
Australia6 Posts
If wagons can't work properly, there is always another alternative I came up with the other day. Here is a comparison with a normal mineral field layout with a suggestion I have: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WjjH4vp.png?1) The alternative makes it so that more workers are needed to saturate a base completely. The income for the first 10 or so workers is the same, but past that you will need about 3 workers per mineral field, so if you have 20 workers on 1 base, its the same income as 16 workers on 2 bases @Engineers If you need a 3rd ability, why not repair? I mean, they practically are screaming for it. Look at Battlefield as an example (just stick with me). The sole purpose of Engineers in that game (until BF2142) was to repair stuff. So a repair ability would make sense. | ||
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isaachukfan
Canada785 Posts
On March 11 2013 20:23 M05513 wrote: @Economy If wagons can't work properly, there is always another alternative I came up with the other day. Here is a comparison with a normal mineral field layout with a suggestion I have: The alternative makes it so that more workers are needed to saturate a base completely. The income for the first 10 or so workers is the same, but past that you will need about 3 workers per mineral field, so if you have 20 workers on 1 base, its the same income as 16 workers on 2 bases @Engineers If you need a 3rd ability, why not repair? I mean, they practically are screaming for it. Look at Battlefield as an example (just stick with me). The sole purpose of Engineers in that game (until BF2142) was to repair stuff. So a repair ability would make sense. I believe this is something that Kabel is trying to avoid.... | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Yeah, well.. uhm..it's not what I aim for @Engineers I call them "Enginner" in lack of a better name. IF the Medic is replaced with the Medivac, and Firebat with Reaper, Terran might need another bio unit. The "Engineer" can have Matrix + 1 or 2 extra abilities I play around with. Maybe some kind of attack. This is a very loose concept so far, not even sure it makes it into the game. SCVs handle the Repair quite fine, so I do not think an extra Repair-unit would be needed. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Edit: It's over! | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
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