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On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition.
I never said ban Koreans... they are free to play in NA events if they move here like they require NA people to do if they want to play in GSL. If they wanna come here for months at a time to play in our events sure go ahead. Stephano / Scarlett can't just fly in to Korea for a weekend and roll out with 25k.
I want the best games possible to be played at every tournament just like everyone else. The only point I was making, is the NA scene will never catch up if we keep giving all the money in the NA scene money to Koreans. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. So unless there is some random influx of money in NA that doesn't go to Koreans and Korean teams, it will continue heading in the direction its heading. That's all I meant.
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So we have 3 Code S regions, and apparently there is a problem because Foreign players aren't winning tournaments. I know this isn't exactly how everyone views it, but seriously? The level of competition in Starcraft 2 is at the highest it's ever been globally, and apparently the system is broken. How about instead of saying the system is broken, we recognize that just like Americans have a higher chance of getting into the NFL (American sport league, American audience, generally American players), that citizens of South Korea have a higher chance of being recognizable professionals in an activity that they have accepted to be worthy of "sport" status within their own country
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On August 22 2013 17:50 RParks42 wrote:
So we have 3 Code S regions, and apparently there is a problem because Foreign players aren't winning tournaments. I know this isn't exactly how everyone views it, but seriously? The level of competition in Starcraft 2 is at the highest it's ever been globally, and apparently the system is broken. How about instead of saying the system is broken, we recognize that just like Americans have a higher chance of getting into the NFL (American sport league, American audience, generally American players), that citizens of South Korea have a higher chance of being recognizable professionals in an activity that they have accepted to be worthy of "sport" status within their own country
The problem with your statement is it isn't including the environment in which these players are growing up in. In Korea if you are a top masters or gm player you can have a shot at getting into a team house. Where you can get the proper training and time to practice. In NA we only have a few teams houses and there isn't a high enough skill level to properly raise our talent unless we have access to the best players. But we have so little opportunities for up and coming players unlike Korea who have massive team houses filled with young talent; Most of which they develop over time. We are behind on the curve and our geographical distances between top level players contributes to that.
If we were to have more team houses open up and or a modified hybrid system for WCS players will have a chance to earn enough money to properly train. Players who have been involved or players interested at getting involved are scared too because there is no opportunity for them to make an entrance into the scene without Korean players taking all the resources available.
I believe competition is healthy and thats why I think a region lock would only cause harm but if we do not come up with a solution blizzard may be forced to enact a region lock to keep the community happy. So we are here trying to come up with a hybrid system that can accommodate to more of our needs.
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On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition.
I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship.
Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain.
"Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training."
Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible.
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On August 22 2013 17:46 ChosenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I never said ban Koreans... they are free to play in NA events if they move here like they require NA people to do if they want to play in GSL. If they wanna come here for months at a time to play in our events sure go ahead. Stephano / Scarlett can't just fly in to Korea for a weekend and roll out with 25k. I want the best games possible to be played at every tournament just like everyone else. The only point I was making, is the NA scene will never catch up if we keep giving all the money in the NA scene money to Koreans. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. So unless there is some random influx of money in NA that doesn't go to Koreans and Korean teams, it will continue heading in the direction its heading. That's all I meant.
Ofcourse they can fly in and out, the difference is they cannot place high and/or win, because competition in Korea is brutal. GSL doesn't require your residence to be in Korea, it just requires you to be there in person. In addition to that it simply makes sense due to the infrastructure of Korea. Why would you hold all-offline tournamnets like the GSL (WCS) in EU/NA? Way too big, way too much costs for the teams if every round would be offline.
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On August 22 2013 17:35 Prof wrote:
I have always thought that a "soft" region lock might work best. What I mean by this is there are no citizenship or residency restrictions however in order to play in a certain regions WCS tournaments you must play a large number of games on that regions ladder during the season (I haven't figured out what number of games would be appropriate but I am sure blizzard and everyone involved in the community could arrive at a useful number). This would solve the problem of NA and EU players not having strong enough practive partners on ladder to continue to improve their skill level. Also, this would force KR players to actually participate in improving the regions in which they play rather than just playing a very few games in the region each season which adds very minimal improvements to the skill of other regions.
Some people have suggested that the any player playing in a region should be a GM in that region as a restriction. Let's be honest here a Korean player could easily reach Grandmaster on NA or EU in about a day, two at the most. Just to show you the difference in skill level for players who are high GM on the Korean ladder, in the past day or so Scarlett and Taeja were recently playing on the EU ladder on Cella's account and in about 30 games or so raised his account from the middle of the EU ladder to #7. Imagine how easy it would be for them to take a new account up to GM if they can do this against great players in EU. Really the GM limitation is no limitation at all for players at that level however a set number of games played on that ladder would definitely be a limitation.
I like this compromise because it would still allow players like Scarlett, Snute, Naniwa, etc. to live in Korea yet still participate in their home regions. Also, I think this might give younger players more incentive to play ladder and improve. I think as a young up and coming player being able to play Hero or Jaedong on the NA ladder would be an incredible thrill that would keep me interested in the playing the game.
That's my 2 cents. I might be totally wrong but I thought I'd share.
I like this idea. I would hate to see a region lock, but this actually sounds like a good compromise. Seems only fair to contribute to the region you play in.
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On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship. Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain. "Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training." Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible.
TaeJa, Polt, HyuN, Jaedong, MVP ... all of the named are capable of taking games of the highest competition. Thats the nature of Starcraft. There's not a high enough skill ceiling for your skill to matter and elevator yourself above everyone else. Just as one example check out Jaedong vs INnoVation in proleague. Yes INnoVation is a better player, but he still lost as well as he lost to TaeJa. Speaking of 'highest level' I'm obviously aware that its WCS Korea, but if you want to argue if WCS NA / EU does increase in skill when those Koreans enter, yes it does.
I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself. MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak, I think even though he isn't as scary as before, he's still an excellent player. So, I don't see a reason why you would want to shit on the "b-teamers".
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In the Dota 2 section there was a thread about the disappointing results of the Chinese teams in this year's International. One of the major points to why the Chinese played poorly is due to the lack of tournaments from 22 last year to a measly 5 this year, causing loss of motivation and laziness. That can relate to the NA scene.
Look at the very beginning of when Koreans started playing Starcraft. Local tournaments in every cafe for prize money or hardware. Every korean kid had a reason to play Starcraft 24/7 because they can play in tournaments, win money, and be famous. And look at where that has got them: establishing the top players from the first OSL to establishing KeSPA to GSL and now. Korea's eSport industry is established and now everyone has a reason to get into eSports.
What about the NA scene? Pretty much nothing. All we have is ladder and practice partners, and for what? Get to Masters league? We can't just fucking say "Oh, there's no NA scene because NA players are bad". The reason why there's no NA scene because there's nothing supporting the NA scene. There's no established body in NA that can take care of teams and players, there's not enough, if any, daily/weekly/monthly tournaments that can give prize money to amateur players, and yet people are convinced that the NA scene has everything there is to make and sustain players.
I don't want to wait until Starcraft 2 is dead for faithful fans to start appreciating lower-than-korean-level.
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On August 22 2013 17:06 QuixoticO wrote:
We always want eSports to be more like real sports but yet people continue coming with backward ideas like this. Imagine if Beckham wasn't allowed to play for the Los Angelas Galaxy or Messi for Barcelona because people didn't want these star players to play in their countries. Because it would make it harder for the regions own players to compete on that level.
You only get on their level by trying to become as good as them. And not making your own league easier for the purpose of making easy money and sustainability of weaker players. It's harsh but it's the truth in any "real" sport too.
Beckham is allowed to play for LA Galaxy but he doesn't play for Liverpool during the season and comes to LA just to win the finals and collect the reward. Even for real sports players there is a certain level of commitment when competing in certain area or competition why shouldn't the same apply for eSports?
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Canada16217 Posts
On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship. Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain. "Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training." Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible.
People love seeing Mvp and Nestea play, especially Mvp. Record low viewer numbers compared to what? Sure they were lower then season 1 but that's understandable with the circumstances. Again why do you say B-teamers when the players who were in wcs korea were code a/code s players that's not a b-teamer.
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On August 22 2013 16:53 FreedomSC2 wrote:
Perhaps an open regular season with a region lock for season finals based off points? That is just one idea. Lets try and think things through here. Lets start up a conversation :D I know there is a lot of people on these forums smarter then me; so I'm sure we can come up with something. Lets give blizzard some alternative ideas other then region lock or no region lock. We all know either way is harmful to one degree so lets look at a mix of them both for the best possible outcome.
I've suggested a similar option before. I think a great idea would be to have certain number of spots available for each country in NA premier league.
e.g. replace challenger league with these qualifiers to NA premier:
Korea: 16 spots
North/South America: 8 spots
Taiwan/China: 4 spots
Aus/NZ/Rest of the world: 4 spots
This way players from all of these countries get exposure, plus we get internationals vs koreans in premier league.
It's similar to the soccer world cup in that regions get certain number of guaranteed spots based on their relative strength - but being more generous to weaker regions to encourage growth there.
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glad to see something actually constructive rather than most of the stuff flying around lately!
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On August 22 2013 18:09 NapkinBox wrote:
In the Dota 2 section there was a thread about the disappointing results of the Chinese teams in this year's International. One of the major points to why the Chinese played poorly is due to the lack of tournaments from 22 last year to a measly 5 this year, causing loss of motivation and laziness. That can relate to the NA scene.
Look at the very beginning of when Koreans started playing Starcraft. Local tournaments in every cafe for prize money or hardware. Every korean kid had a reason to play Starcraft 24/7 because they can play in tournaments, win money, and be famous. And look at where that has got them: establishing the top players from the first OSL to establishing KeSPA to GSL and now. Korea's eSport industry is established and now everyone has a reason to get into eSports.
What about the NA scene? Pretty much nothing. All we have is ladder and practice partners, and for what? Get to Masters league? We can't just fucking say "Oh, there's no NA scene because NA players are bad". The reason why there's no NA scene because there's nothing supporting the NA scene. There's no established body in NA that can take care of teams and players, there's not enough, if any, daily/weekly/monthly tournaments that can give prize money to amateur players, and yet people are convinced that the NA scene has everything there is to make and sustain players.
I don't want to wait until Starcraft 2 is dead for faithful fans to start appreciating lower-than-korean-level.
NapkinBox knows what he is talking about. You hit it on the head. People expect NA players to compete with Koreans and if they don't its cuz "well I guess they just aren't as good". That has nothing to do with it... its the infrastructure of the scene that produces the gap.
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On August 22 2013 18:08 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship. Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain. "Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training." Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible. TaeJa, Polt, HyuN, Jaedong, MVP ... all of the named are capable of taking games of the highest competition. Thats the nature of Starcraft. There's not a high enough skill ceiling for your skill to matter and elevator yourself above everyone else. Just as one example check out Jaedong vs INnoVation in proleague. Yes INnoVation is a better player, but he still lost as well as he lost to TaeJa. Speaking of 'highest level' I'm obviously aware that its WCS Korea, but if you want to argue if WCS NA / EU does increase in skill when those Koreans enter, yes it does. I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself. MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak, I think even though he isn't as scary as before, he's still an excellent player. So, I don't see a reason why you would want to shit on the "b-teamers".
Taeja,Polt,Hyn and jaedong have never won anything above a bo1 against any of the top 4 in kr,They won a maximum of bo1 which doesnt really count in a bo3 and bo5 format like the world finals.
"
I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself
"
Yes they do run form korea because neither of them had won anything in korea for a very long time.They can not even qualify for the gsl or osl anymore.
the foreigners wanna do the same with easy wins so why hate on them?What about the foreign players that want to sustain themselves?
" MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak"
he won 2 games in his favourite match up.and innovarion still managed to beat and manner mule him
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Canada16217 Posts
On August 22 2013 18:27 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 18:08 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship. Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain. "Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training." Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible. TaeJa, Polt, HyuN, Jaedong, MVP ... all of the named are capable of taking games of the highest competition. Thats the nature of Starcraft. There's not a high enough skill ceiling for your skill to matter and elevator yourself above everyone else. Just as one example check out Jaedong vs INnoVation in proleague. Yes INnoVation is a better player, but he still lost as well as he lost to TaeJa. Speaking of 'highest level' I'm obviously aware that its WCS Korea, but if you want to argue if WCS NA / EU does increase in skill when those Koreans enter, yes it does. I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself. MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak, I think even though he isn't as scary as before, he's still an excellent player. So, I don't see a reason why you would want to shit on the "b-teamers". Taeja,Polt,Hyn and jaedong have never won anything above a bo1 against any of the top 4 in kr,They won a maximum of bo1 which doesnt really count in a bo3 and bo5 format like the world finals. " I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself " Yes they do run form korea because neither of them had won anything in korea for a very long time.They can not even qualify for the gsl or osl anymore. the foreigners wanna do the same with easy wins so why hate on them?What about the foreign players that want to sustain themselves? " MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak" he won 2 games in his favourite match up.and innovarion still managed to beat and manner mule him
that makes him lesser somehow because it was his best match up? o_O
Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months.
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For the sake of arguement...
1. Make it region lock.
1.1 If your a foreigner for that region (example: Korean), you just need to play in person.
1.2 Strictly offline.
1.3 Your OWN account on that specific region; No borrows
1.4 Laddering all the way at least GM status strictly on that region.
2. Coping up with expenses.
2.1 Create teams like EG. Build team houses. Find sponsors.
2.2 Make an organinzation like KESPA to overlook that specific region.
2.3 Seek assistance/sponsorship from government
2.4 As for small timers, build a clan. Start a team like those in cafe.
3. IN SHORT, follow the footsteps as how Korea build esports in 1999.
I think with that NA and EU will grow. Slow yet helps build up a sence on that region.
Creates their own culture and makes the players motivated.
Think about the pride and glory of representing your country and region.
Gradually rising up their standards. Slow and steady wins the race.
As for the high competitiveness, SEE YOU AT THE SEASON FINALS.
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Although you've gone to a lot of trouble with your post, people need to stop making threads on the same issue. There needs to be one huge thread where everyone can circle jerk and get no where. Currently anyone with an idea new or old makes a thread and it's an eye-sore.
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On August 22 2013 18:31 riyanme wrote:
For the sake of arguement...
1. Make it region lock.
1.1 If your a foreigner for that region (example: Korean), you just need to play in person.
1.2 Strictly offline.
1.3 Your OWN account on that specific region; No borrows
1.4 Laddering all the way at least GM status strictly on that region.
2. Coping up with expenses.
2.1 Create teams like EG. Build team houses. Find sponsors.
2.2 Make an organinzation like KESPA to overlook that specific region.
2.3 Seek assistance/sponsorship from government
2.4 As for small timers, build a clan. Start a team like those in cafe.
3. IN SHORT, follow the footsteps as how Korea build esports in 1999.
I think with that NA and EU will grow. Slow yet helps build up a sence on that region.
Creates their own culture and makes the players motivated.
Think about the pride and glory of representing your country and region.
Gradually rising up their standards. Slow and steady wins the race.
As for the high competitiveness, SEE YOU AT THE SEASON FINALS.
I wish we could follow in the footsteps of Korea but we can't really. Because Korea didn't have players coming into Korea and winning all the prize money back then. It's easier when you are the innovator. With the current setup all the money that would go to foreigners doesn't.
Team's are making progress but we recently saw a lot of top semi professional teams disband due to financial issues given the current economic climate. Given our current circumstances its going to be difficult to emulate that model even in ideal conditions. I plan on getting involved in the community more to help managers though to give us a better fighting chance.
Thank you for joining the conversation though. I respect your opinion and are glad to have you involved.
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Think this idea has potential, i posted a similar sugestion on the wcs region lock thread yesterday or 2 days ago
"There is another good (and imo best) solution and that is to make it a mixed tournament, reserve say 12 out of 16 places for players who have a north/south american nationality or a european nationality and then have 4 open spots everyone can compete for?
This wont prevent koreans from taking the top spots but it will make sure a big amount of local players have a change to play in the spotlights. A few foreigner/korean matches isnt bad btw i think, its always nice to see how the local top players do against them. Its just that a final 8 or even 16 with koreans only is kinda boring for your local sc fan.
Wcs europe was perfect in this regard (at least for me), have a few koreans but not that manny so that they completely dominated the later rounds of the tournament."
Think if implement this you should implement it in the most simple way. the system proposed by the op does not have a good change to succeed i think, because i dont see a reason for koreans to join the regular season if they cant make it to the finals annyway. Why would they still play the regular season then? There seems to be no insentive.
Maybe could just run the regular season with aplications open to players from anny region, and then just make a rule that only the top 4 of foreigners can place for the finals.
For example: 8 koreans take part in the regular season and they finish as 1,2,4,6,7,8,9,11 then 1,2,4,and 6 go to the finals together with the foreigners who ended 3th 5th 10th and 12-23?
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Thank you for joining the conversation Rassy. I think you have come up with an interesting idea for sure. Thankfully we have a great community full of intelligent people like yourself who can contribute their ideas for blizzard to review. It's important we don't get caught up in disagreements over silly non-sense and focus on positive constructive ideas to help the scene. Anyone who decides to trolls this thread is only going to hurt esports. So I thank everyone who is being respectful, courteous, and pro-active in this thread.
So thank you again Rassy and the rest of you for being involved in our community discussion.
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EPT
