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Introduction:
Hello everyone,
I have been involved in the Starcraft II scene since its early years. I have worked with some phenomenal players not only on my teams but also in events I have helped oversee. I have kept in touch with several players top within the scene who have shared their opinions on the current WCS situation.
I understand there is currently a debate going on discussing whether or not region locking is the best possible solution to resolve the issue. I personally was against region locking in the beginning because as a former manager I know what practice vs the best players in the world can do to up and coming talent.
I have changed my view a bit on the topic though as I have spoken to several excellent players who have been forced to almost retire due to the difficulty of having time to train in the NA scene. In order to play full time you need to either be a student, work very few hours, or be on a Premier team in NA.
I believe though there may be another way to look at this dilemma. What about a possible Hybrid system? A system where players can get the practice they need vs Koreans to excel well also leaving enough resources on the table for up and coming gamers to support themselves on their gaming endeavors.
I believe such a system could be possible but I think as a community it is something we need to come up with together. I know there is a lot of smart people in this community and the energy we all share well debating this topic is tremendous. Perhaps we should look for a possible solution outside the "yes or no" region lock discussions.
I have decided to start this topic because I wanted to see if anyone in the community could share ideas to possibly help blizzard out in providing an alternative option that would give the players the best of both worlds.
PRO's to Region Lock:
Players have a chance to make enough money to sustain full time training to become better players.
CON's to Regon Lock:
Player lose the chance to practice vs top level talent from around the world. Slowing growth.
Possible Hybrid:
Could we create a system where a regular season has no region lock and season finals with region lock. So we get the experience from playing top level koreans well still being able to earn enough money to train full time. Perhaps a point system? Tell us what you think.
Original WCS Post in other thread:
I posted a comment in the other WCS thread but I wanted to create a sepertage post for it so it doesn't get lost in the pages. Here is my intial comments in the other post:
I can see both sides of the debate. I know several former pro players who had to stop playing due to the financial aspect of it. If we can give NA players the chance to earn money more players can play full time but they would need to get the korean practice experience elsewhere. So its sort of a balancing effect if they were to do region locking. NA players would need to find a way to practice vs koreans which is very difficult without lag over servers. Brings up an interesting discussion for sure. Initially I was all for keeping it open as it raised the skill level but the truth is there isn't many na players besides those on top teams that can afford to train the way koreans do. There is no gaming houses where food and what not is provided. Perhaps those interested who have spare cash look at opening up a korean style team house. I know I would If i had the money.
Another Idea:
Perhaps they need to look at a new system that allows NA/EU/KR players to play against each other in the regular seasons but have region locks in effect for season finals. I don't see how to do it but im sure a system could be created. There are a lot of people smarter then me. Why don't we discuss ways this might be possible? give blizzard some ideas?
This would give us the best of both worlds. Players get the experience of playing vs Koreans and they have the chance to earn money to keep the na scene robust.
If you have anything to contribute to this conversation please do. I believe something is possible if we can turn some of that energy we are putting into the debate into some creative alternative solutions. :D Hope to hear from you guys.
Freedom.
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Anything that would help us to watch better games would be great 
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Perhaps an open regular season with a region lock for season finals based off points? That is just one idea. Lets try and think things through here. Lets start up a conversation :D I know there is a lot of people on these forums smarter then me; so I'm sure we can come up with something. Lets give blizzard some alternative ideas other then region lock or no region lock. We all know either way is harmful to one degree so lets look at a mix of them both for the best possible outcome.
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We always want eSports to be more like real sports but yet people continue coming with backward ideas like this. Imagine if Beckham wasn't allowed to play for the Los Angelas Galaxy or Messi for Barcelona because people didn't want these star players to play in their countries. Because it would make it harder for the regions own players to compete on that level.
You only get on their level by trying to become as good as them. And not making your own league easier for the purpose of making easy money and sustainability of weaker players. It's harsh but it's the truth in any "real" sport too.
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I think you can put a semi-region lock with only certain amount of spots for other regions. For example if you had 32 spots in premier league only 8 spots in total could be taken by other regions. Or if you wanted to make it more complicated you can even have a certain amount of spots per country i.e. 5 for korea 1 for China 1 for SEA etc. etc. Then for those spots you can just make qualifiers to get the spots.
Then I think for the following seasons the spots can only be replaced if the person who qualified in the previous season is knocked out. So 5 out of 8 Koreans are in premier league then in the qualifier only 3 new Koreans can come in. I think this could also work for placements into challenger league too...
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Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.
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TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.
If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer.
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On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.
You made some great points Chosen. Given your history in eSports I really think you have unique perspective not many can provide. I hope more people with your pedigree are willing to join the discussion. The truth of the situation is no one can afford to play full time. As where in Korea they have gaming houses where players can crack if they are playing part-time. If we had gaming houses all throughout NA we might have the chance for up and coming talent to play more frequently. Most Korean players are developed though through the pro gaming houses. it takes them months sometimes years to develop.
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On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:Show nested quote +[
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer.
How can they develop to that point when all the money in the NA scene goes to Korean players? This is why in Korea they have the coaches, houses, managers, no jobs, no school, and play full-time. In NA you can't cuz we don't have the money in our scene. So its the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.
You can't expect a college kid or someone working a full-time job to compete with someone who lives in a team house with 5 other pro-gamers, a coach, a manager, and has 14 hours a day to dedicate their life to nothing but being good...
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On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.
Did you watch MLG Summer Invite ?
Xenocider, Huk, hendralisk, qxc at the finals..
What was the viewercount?
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On August 22 2013 17:30 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Did you watch MLG Summer Invite ? Xenocider, Huk, hendralisk, qxc at the finals.. What was the viewercount?
You can't just say what was the viewership count. People are use to the finals being all Koreans so the odd time it doesn't happen people have already tuned out because they know its usually all Koreans in the finals. That's not really a fair statement given Korean's usually dominate most events. (So people expect the same without even looking)
Thank you though for joining the conversation lets keep thinking of ideas everyone.
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On August 22 2013 17:30 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Did you watch MLG Summer Invite ? Xenocider, Huk, hendralisk, qxc at the finals.. What was the viewercount?
Because it goes way deeper than just 1 event and 1 example. It's been a long-term effect of suffocation. Back in 2010/2011 people cared a ton and stream numbers were way higher etc now because of how everything has developed. Most people quit caring and probably didn't even know that was the final 4. Back when SC2 came out I think back to all my grand master / master league friends who were super hardcore into SC2, and literally not one out of about 25 are left. So if they don't play anymore or care anymore, or are motivated to give a shit anymore, why would they follow who's in the final 4?
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Just as QuixoticO said, Im against region lock. Hate to see this pity excuses. Its like the weak are gathering together to form a coup on the system. If you are weak, then you are. Blame yourself. The sorry reality here is that NA and EU players are not that good compared to Koreans. Be as your region NA or EU, get a life. Stop whinning and play harder. The current WCS system is acceptable. That's my opinion though...
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I have always thought that a "soft" region lock might work best. What I mean by this is there are no citizenship or residency restrictions however in order to play in a certain regions WCS tournaments you must play a large number of games on that regions ladder during the season (I haven't figured out what number of games would be appropriate but I am sure blizzard and everyone involved in the community could arrive at a useful number). This would solve the problem of NA and EU players not having strong enough practive partners on ladder to continue to improve their skill level. Also, this would force KR players to actually participate in improving the regions in which they play rather than just playing a very few games in the region each season which adds very minimal improvements to the skill of other regions.
Some people have suggested that the any player playing in a region should be a GM in that region as a restriction. Let's be honest here a Korean player could easily reach Grandmaster on NA or EU in about a day, two at the most. Just to show you the difference in skill level for players who are high GM on the Korean ladder, in the past day or so Scarlett and Taeja were recently playing on the EU ladder on Cella's account and in about 30 games or so raised his account from the middle of the EU ladder to #7. Imagine how easy it would be for them to take a new account up to GM if they can do this against great players in EU. Really the GM limitation is no limitation at all for players at that level however a set number of games played on that ladder would definitely be a limitation.
I like this compromise because it would still allow players like Scarlett, Snute, Naniwa, etc. to live in Korea yet still participate in their home regions. Also, I think this might give younger players more incentive to play ladder and improve. I think as a young up and coming player being able to play Hero or Jaedong on the NA ladder would be an incredible thrill that would keep me interested in the playing the game.
That's my 2 cents. I might be totally wrong but I thought I'd share.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Don't touch WCS, god dammit. Get someone to improve the scene, but do not touch blizzard, after all you will be the 1st ones to blame 'em for this year later!
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Do people really believe going pro in Korea is less of a risk and somehow rewarded better? Going pro in Korea has a higher risk due to competition being harder and I dare to mention that most of the pros actually don't get sallary. Ofcourse if you manage to break into a team house so you can stay you have no cost at least, but lots of teams in NA/EU pay sallary. Thats why lots of Koreans come over to foreign teams as well.
As one poster mentioned, accepting and rewarding mediocre players isn't the way to go.
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region lock is just an excuse...nothing more. Same will happen with Dota2 if Korea really starts to care...they will roflstomp in some months since they are taking alot of risks.
I still think that koreans are beatable...but most people only care about easy $$. It always makes an difference if you work for money or being in love if your work.
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On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.
I think the problem with the comparison is there just isn't enough prize money in SC2 right now to have different tiers like you do with NFL/CFL. If there were like 2/3 different leagues in Korea with significantly larger prize pool compare to NA/EU (say 3 times as much), I am sure you will see a lot less koreans.
Also, very few Koreans from KOREAN teams play in EU/NA (a few from IM and MVP). Most of the Koreans that are flying over are on the financial support of foreign teams like EG, Liquid, Quantic, SK, Axiom etc.
Players like PuMa, HerO, Taeja are kind of the trail blazers for the koreans coming over to NA/EU WCS.
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On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.
Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level.
Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training.
Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition.
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On August 22 2013 17:26 ChosenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:[
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer. How can they develop to that point when all the money in the NA scene goes to Korean players? This is why in Korea they have the coaches, houses, managers, no jobs, no school, and play full-time. In NA you can't cuz we don't have the money in our scene. So its the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. You can't expect a college kid or someone working a full-time job to compete with someone who lives in a team house with 5 other pro-gamers, a coach, a manager, and has 14 hours a day to dedicate their life to nothing but being good...
EG probably spends more on player salaries than all the WCS AM prize pool combined.
So the money is there, but not invested in local talents and coaches.
If the manager of the most succesful US team does not think investing in US talent is worthwhile - do you really think increasing region-locked prize pool will go towards those team houses, coaches, managers, and 14 hours-a-day practice days?
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EPT
