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eSports is becoming all the more serious. Instead of being overjoyed just to see our favourite players playing in big events we get grumpy and start bashing organisations when their way of producing these events aren't in line with our views of how things should work. I hope that the longevity of eSports will remain sturdy enough to survive this turmoil. If not, being a professional player for a long period of time won't be sustainable enough.
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On August 22 2013 18:29 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 18:27 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 18:08 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship. Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain. "Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training." Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible. TaeJa, Polt, HyuN, Jaedong, MVP ... all of the named are capable of taking games of the highest competition. Thats the nature of Starcraft. There's not a high enough skill ceiling for your skill to matter and elevator yourself above everyone else. Just as one example check out Jaedong vs INnoVation in proleague. Yes INnoVation is a better player, but he still lost as well as he lost to TaeJa. Speaking of 'highest level' I'm obviously aware that its WCS Korea, but if you want to argue if WCS NA / EU does increase in skill when those Koreans enter, yes it does. I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself. MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak, I think even though he isn't as scary as before, he's still an excellent player. So, I don't see a reason why you would want to shit on the "b-teamers". Taeja,Polt,Hyn and jaedong have never won anything above a bo1 against any of the top 4 in kr,They won a maximum of bo1 which doesnt really count in a bo3 and bo5 format like the world finals. " I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself " Yes they do run form korea because neither of them had won anything in korea for a very long time.They can not even qualify for the gsl or osl anymore. the foreigners wanna do the same with easy wins so why hate on them?What about the foreign players that want to sustain themselves? " MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak" he won 2 games in his favourite match up.and innovarion still managed to beat and manner mule him that makes him lesser somehow because it was his best match up? o_O Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months.
Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months.
And who exactly prevented them form buying a train ticket to seoul and start playing in the up and downs for the code a and s qualifiers?OhI forgot..it is easier to buy a plane ticket to na and europe and stomp foreigners than meet bomber,maru,iinovaion,soulkey,rain,flash in one tournament than to beat naniwa,grubby,lucifron,mc etc.
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Canada16217 Posts
On August 22 2013 18:53 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 18:29 NovemberstOrm wrote:On August 22 2013 18:27 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 18:08 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship. Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain. "Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training." Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible. TaeJa, Polt, HyuN, Jaedong, MVP ... all of the named are capable of taking games of the highest competition. Thats the nature of Starcraft. There's not a high enough skill ceiling for your skill to matter and elevator yourself above everyone else. Just as one example check out Jaedong vs INnoVation in proleague. Yes INnoVation is a better player, but he still lost as well as he lost to TaeJa. Speaking of 'highest level' I'm obviously aware that its WCS Korea, but if you want to argue if WCS NA / EU does increase in skill when those Koreans enter, yes it does. I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself. MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak, I think even though he isn't as scary as before, he's still an excellent player. So, I don't see a reason why you would want to shit on the "b-teamers". Taeja,Polt,Hyn and jaedong have never won anything above a bo1 against any of the top 4 in kr,They won a maximum of bo1 which doesnt really count in a bo3 and bo5 format like the world finals. " I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself " Yes they do run form korea because neither of them had won anything in korea for a very long time.They can not even qualify for the gsl or osl anymore. the foreigners wanna do the same with easy wins so why hate on them?What about the foreign players that want to sustain themselves? " MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak" he won 2 games in his favourite match up.and innovarion still managed to beat and manner mule him that makes him lesser somehow because it was his best match up? o_O Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months. Show nested quote + Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months. And who exactly prevented them form buying a train ticket to seoul and start playing in the up and downs for the code a and s qualifiers?OhI forgot..it is easier to buy a plane ticket to na and europe and stomp foreigners than meet bomber,maru,iinovaion,soulkey,rain,flash in one tournament than to beat naniwa,grubby,lucifron,mc etc.
I mean't how do you know they can't beat them but yeah.
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On August 22 2013 18:53 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 18:29 NovemberstOrm wrote:On August 22 2013 18:27 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 18:08 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?
Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....
The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level. Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training. Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition. I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship. Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain. "Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training." Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible. TaeJa, Polt, HyuN, Jaedong, MVP ... all of the named are capable of taking games of the highest competition. Thats the nature of Starcraft. There's not a high enough skill ceiling for your skill to matter and elevator yourself above everyone else. Just as one example check out Jaedong vs INnoVation in proleague. Yes INnoVation is a better player, but he still lost as well as he lost to TaeJa. Speaking of 'highest level' I'm obviously aware that its WCS Korea, but if you want to argue if WCS NA / EU does increase in skill when those Koreans enter, yes it does. I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself. MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak, I think even though he isn't as scary as before, he's still an excellent player. So, I don't see a reason why you would want to shit on the "b-teamers". Taeja,Polt,Hyn and jaedong have never won anything above a bo1 against any of the top 4 in kr,They won a maximum of bo1 which doesnt really count in a bo3 and bo5 format like the world finals. " I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself " Yes they do run form korea because neither of them had won anything in korea for a very long time.They can not even qualify for the gsl or osl anymore. the foreigners wanna do the same with easy wins so why hate on them?What about the foreign players that want to sustain themselves? " MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak" he won 2 games in his favourite match up.and innovarion still managed to beat and manner mule him that makes him lesser somehow because it was his best match up? o_O Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months. Show nested quote + Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months. And who exactly prevented them form buying a train ticket to seoul and start playing in the up and downs for the code a and s qualifiers?OhI forgot..it is easier to buy a plane ticket to na and europe and stomp foreigners than meet bomber,maru,iinovaion,soulkey,rain,flash in one tournament than to beat naniwa,grubby,lucifron,mc etc.
It is about percentages... Even if you could go 50/50 vs Maru/Innovation/Rain, it is much easier to play in NA/EU. It is like saying that previous OSL/GSL champions picking the easiest opponent for their Ro32 groups. Of course you will pick your best matchup and weakest opponent. That is not running away from the competition when you will face the same players later on (Globals). It is just common sense...
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Personally, I am AGAINST for region lock for ONE reason only... COMPETITIVENESS.
But for the sake of arguement on making the region grow..
All that needs to be done here is...
OMG MAKE IT REGION LOCKED ASAP on the WCS 2014 series to come.
The weak will get motivated.
25% of the player's prize should be shared to the team/clan.
His share would eventually help the team grow.
One should not be greedy, you should play for fun and out of love and NOT FOR MONEY...(money hungry MC).
Of course we need money, who doesn't?
What Im trying to imply here is your love and commitment for esports to grow.
Self sacrifice, unparalled dedication and aspiration to succeed.
Isn't rewarding you won the game because you had fun playing rather than... "Yes! Another 25k in the bank!"
Take it as an honor not a job.
For no sponsored teams and clans. Dont lose hope.
Claw your way to the top. Make a name for yourself.
People who discourages/doubting on taking the first step WILL GET NOWHERE.
Use you own money. Practice hard.
No matter how weak your practice partner is, eventually you will grow.
How the hell did Koreans do that if they didn't start on that level?
A perfect example would be KESPA transition.
The only difference in KESPA transition and yourself is just you dont have the environment and money.
THEN, make one.
Be optimistic. Mostly the community are the ones who brings despair and injustice to possible talents.
It should all starts in us. Let us embrace on the idea that WE CAN.
Koreans are BEATABLE!
WE, the community are "retards". We are the ones destroying ourselves.
We are baised. We are blinded on the truth. We all are EQUAL.
Who do you think the Koreans are? Are they GODS? What the hell is that thinking?!
So please, give yourself a chance and let us grow...
PROPOSING REGION LOCK!!! c",)
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I'm sick of this debate now. At the start of it I thought it was a bit iffy that Koreans could participate in whatever one they wanted but now I just don't care. If the NA scene was ready to participate in high-level starcraft then it will, but as it is now it's not ready thus the results show for it.
There's absolutely nothing stopping American players from doing what the Korean players are doing.. All it takes is some adjustment and actually putting in the hours into the game akin to putting in the hours to working a standard shift.
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Could we create a system where a regular season has no region lock and season finals with region lock. So we get the experience from playing top level koreans well still being able to earn enough money to train full time. Perhaps a point system? Tell us what you think.
I don't get this. Are you referring "season finals" as the last WCS in the year? Also can't blizz just make an independent tournament for WCS? ,tho it helped OSL in the hype and viewership, the GSL excitement/hype/viewrship kinda declined in my observation.
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On August 22 2013 19:24 MonkSEA wrote:
There's absolutely nothing stopping American players from doing what the Korean players are doing.. All it takes is some adjustment and actually putting in the hours into the game akin to putting in the hours to working a standard shift.
You can make this statement for EU/SEA too.
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Let me clear this, WCS American is not WCS for america player, its the WCS take place in North America. America is just the region names. It's just like WTA'S Australian OPEN is not only for Australian, American OPEN is not only for American. WCS is not WCG which you present your country, in WCS you just present yourself as a player. You want to see local pros in top 4 you better wish them training hard, not region lock out korean or foreigner.
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On August 22 2013 20:08 jalen wrote:
Let me clear this, WCS American is not WCS for america player, its the WCS take place in North America. America is just the region names. It's just like WTA'S Australian OPEN is not only for Australian, American OPEN is not only for American. WCS is not WCG which you present your country, in WCS you just present yourself as a player. You want to see local pros in top 4 you better wish them training hard, not region lock out korean or foreigner.
It's different though - in tennis, it's the same top level pros that compete in all the top tournaments, because they aren't held at the same time. WCS regions are all at the same time, and pros have to commit to one of the regions for a year - hence why the players that play in it should be more representative of the region.
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On August 22 2013 20:08 jalen wrote:
Let me clear this, WCS American is not WCS for america player, its the WCS take place in North America. America is just the region names. It's just like WTA'S Australian OPEN is not only for Australian, American OPEN is not only for American. WCS is not WCG which you present your country, in WCS you just present yourself as a player. You want to see local pros in top 4 you better wish them training hard, not region lock out korean or foreigner.
Yes but there are qualifying spots that ARE "region locked" for the Australian open. Look at the bracket for the Australian Open since that is the example you are choosing. There are people that qualify from regions of the world that might not be the best 128 tennis players but they are given a spot to help grow and promote the sport are the world. A lot of people are using examples of why not to region lock where there is actually some sort of mechanic in place to allot spots to lesser players/regions to ensure a diverse representation and grow the game. Golf does it, tennis does it, the Olympics do it.
What is funny is that this system is actually being abused by b-team Koreans to get into the WCS and jump over better A-teamers, yet people have no problem with that and it's a similar situation of a lesser player getting a spot. It's better to be the 25th best Korean go play WCS America than it is to be the 12th best Korean playing in WCS Korea and not qualifying. If this doesn't change more high level Koreans will jump ship to other regions and then WCS Korea starts to dilute.
The whole system just seems to be failing to do 2 things:
Create exciting storylines
Foster new and exciting talent.
Those two things above are more important to growth and longevity than people realize. Casual fans and new fans get drawn in by the above.
To the people that don't want some sort of region lock/spot allocation- you are being very shortsighted and the current system will continue to slowly bleed viewers.
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On August 22 2013 19:24 MonkSEA wrote:
There's absolutely nothing stopping American players from doing what the Korean players are doing.. All it takes is some adjustment and actually putting in the hours into the game akin to putting in the hours to working a standard shift.
When people say that, no one ever backs it up. Care to be the first? Adjustments and putting hours into the game? How to do that? The answer is: more NA tournaments for NA players. With prize money. Daily, Weekly, Monthly tournaments too. Anything to have our NA players motivated to keep playing the game as much as they can. I'm actually surprised MLG has never thought of doing any tournaments for lesser players who want to make it big, who of course, ya know, can't buy a plane ticket, or are maybe even... poor. *shudders* Blizzard can also help increase the base skill level of playerbase with in-game tournaments within the client too. I'd love that.
Seriously, how is anyone going to be motivated to train for a game where they have to buy a plane ticket to each MLG, each Dreamhack, and Korean tournaments, expecting to win even ONE of them? This isn't South Korea, this is North Fucking-merica. I can't take a train and go to New York in a few hours feeling confident in winning... whatever tournament over there.
I believe there needs to be a lot of online tournaments. And I mean, alot of online tournaments. Doesn't matter if it's just for "points" for whatever system they're using, or actual prize money and hardware. Sooner or later, we'll have long-term, sponsored tournaments just for the amateur scene. NA players will have a reason to work hard and stay dedicated because these tournaments are huge opportunities for them to make a living. After some time, you'll start seeing foreigners taking top places in MLGs and Dreamhacks and being able to compete with the top Koreans. Why? Because there was a place for them to kick start their career: online, amateur tournaments.
Korean dominance all started in fucking PC Bangs for goodness sake.
The question is though, who will be the ones to start these tournaments? Maybe I'm just dreaming too much... Well, it IS 5:04 am!
Just bumping what I said earlier:
+ Show Spoiler +
In the Dota 2 section there was a thread about the disappointing results of the Chinese teams in this year's International. One of the major points to why the Chinese played poorly is due to the lack of tournaments from 22 last year to a measly 5 this year, causing loss of motivation and laziness. That can relate to the NA scene.
Look at the very beginning of when Koreans started playing Starcraft. Local tournaments in every cafe for prize money or hardware. Every korean kid had a reason to play Starcraft 24/7 because they can play in tournaments, win money, and be famous. And look at where that has got them: establishing the top players from the first OSL to establishing KeSPA to GSL and now. Korea's eSport industry is established and now everyone has a reason to get into eSports.
What about the NA scene? Pretty much nothing. All we have is ladder and practice partners, and for what? Get to Masters league? We can't just fucking say "Oh, there's no NA scene because NA players are bad". The reason why there's no NA scene because there's nothing supporting the NA scene. There's no established body in NA that can take care of teams and players, there's not enough, if any, daily/weekly/monthly tournaments that can give prize money to amateur players, and yet people are convinced that the NA scene has everything there is to make and sustain players.
I don't want to wait until Starcraft 2 is dead for faithful fans to start appreciating lower-than-korean-level.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 22 2013 21:03 NapkinBox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 19:24 MonkSEA wrote:
There's absolutely nothing stopping American players from doing what the Korean players are doing.. All it takes is some adjustment and actually putting in the hours into the game akin to putting in the hours to working a standard shift. When people say that, no one ever backs it up. Care to be the first? Adjustments and putting hours into the game? How to do that? The answer is: more NA tournaments for NA players. With prize money. Daily, Weekly, Monthly tournaments too. Anything to have our NA players motivated to keep playing the game as much as they can. I'm actually surprised MLG has never thought of doing any tournaments for lesser players who want to make it big, who of course, ya know, can't buy a plane ticket, or are maybe even... poor. *shudders* Blizzard can also help increase the base skill level of playerbase with in-game tournaments within the client too. I'd love that. Seriously, how is anyone going to be motivated to train for a game where they have to buy a plane ticket to each MLG, each Dreamhack, and Korean tournaments, expecting to win even ONE of them? This isn't South Korea, this is North Fucking-merica. I can't take a train and go to New York in a few hours feeling confident in winning... whatever tournament over there. I believe there needs to be a lot of online tournaments. And I mean, alot of online tournaments. Doesn't matter if it's just for "points" for whatever system they're using, or actual prize money and hardware. Sooner or later, we'll have long-term, sponsored tournaments just for the amateur scene. NA players will have a reason to work hard and stay dedicated because these tournaments are huge opportunities for them to make a living. After some time, you'll start seeing foreigners taking top places in MLGs and Dreamhacks and being able to compete with the top Koreans. Why? Because there was a place for them to kick start their career: online, amateur tournaments. Korean dominance all started in fucking PC Bangs for goodness sake. The question is though, who will be the ones to start these tournaments? Maybe I'm just dreaming too much... Well, it IS 5:04 am! Just bumping what I said earlier: + Show Spoiler +
In the Dota 2 section there was a thread about the disappointing results of the Chinese teams in this year's International. One of the major points to why the Chinese played poorly is due to the lack of tournaments from 22 last year to a measly 5 this year, causing loss of motivation and laziness. That can relate to the NA scene.
Look at the very beginning of when Koreans started playing Starcraft. Local tournaments in every cafe for prize money or hardware. Every korean kid had a reason to play Starcraft 24/7 because they can play in tournaments, win money, and be famous. And look at where that has got them: establishing the top players from the first OSL to establishing KeSPA to GSL and now. Korea's eSport industry is established and now everyone has a reason to get into eSports.
What about the NA scene? Pretty much nothing. All we have is ladder and practice partners, and for what? Get to Masters league? We can't just fucking say "Oh, there's no NA scene because NA players are bad". The reason why there's no NA scene because there's nothing supporting the NA scene. There's no established body in NA that can take care of teams and players, there's not enough, if any, daily/weekly/monthly tournaments that can give prize money to amateur players, and yet people are convinced that the NA scene has everything there is to make and sustain players.
I don't want to wait until Starcraft 2 is dead for faithful fans to start appreciating lower-than-korean-level.
Get EG to do that, i heard they pay better salary to their players, than WCS America has in prize pool. Good luck 
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On August 22 2013 21:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 21:03 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 19:24 MonkSEA wrote:
There's absolutely nothing stopping American players from doing what the Korean players are doing.. All it takes is some adjustment and actually putting in the hours into the game akin to putting in the hours to working a standard shift. When people say that, no one ever backs it up. Care to be the first? Adjustments and putting hours into the game? How to do that? The answer is: more NA tournaments for NA players. With prize money. Daily, Weekly, Monthly tournaments too. Anything to have our NA players motivated to keep playing the game as much as they can. I'm actually surprised MLG has never thought of doing any tournaments for lesser players who want to make it big, who of course, ya know, can't buy a plane ticket, or are maybe even... poor. *shudders* Blizzard can also help increase the base skill level of playerbase with in-game tournaments within the client too. I'd love that. Seriously, how is anyone going to be motivated to train for a game where they have to buy a plane ticket to each MLG, each Dreamhack, and Korean tournaments, expecting to win even ONE of them? This isn't South Korea, this is North Fucking-merica. I can't take a train and go to New York in a few hours feeling confident in winning... whatever tournament over there. I believe there needs to be a lot of online tournaments. And I mean, alot of online tournaments. Doesn't matter if it's just for "points" for whatever system they're using, or actual prize money and hardware. Sooner or later, we'll have long-term, sponsored tournaments just for the amateur scene. NA players will have a reason to work hard and stay dedicated because these tournaments are huge opportunities for them to make a living. After some time, you'll start seeing foreigners taking top places in MLGs and Dreamhacks and being able to compete with the top Koreans. Why? Because there was a place for them to kick start their career: online, amateur tournaments. Korean dominance all started in fucking PC Bangs for goodness sake. The question is though, who will be the ones to start these tournaments? Maybe I'm just dreaming too much... Well, it IS 5:04 am! Just bumping what I said earlier: + Show Spoiler +
In the Dota 2 section there was a thread about the disappointing results of the Chinese teams in this year's International. One of the major points to why the Chinese played poorly is due to the lack of tournaments from 22 last year to a measly 5 this year, causing loss of motivation and laziness. That can relate to the NA scene.
Look at the very beginning of when Koreans started playing Starcraft. Local tournaments in every cafe for prize money or hardware. Every korean kid had a reason to play Starcraft 24/7 because they can play in tournaments, win money, and be famous. And look at where that has got them: establishing the top players from the first OSL to establishing KeSPA to GSL and now. Korea's eSport industry is established and now everyone has a reason to get into eSports.
What about the NA scene? Pretty much nothing. All we have is ladder and practice partners, and for what? Get to Masters league? We can't just fucking say "Oh, there's no NA scene because NA players are bad". The reason why there's no NA scene because there's nothing supporting the NA scene. There's no established body in NA that can take care of teams and players, there's not enough, if any, daily/weekly/monthly tournaments that can give prize money to amateur players, and yet people are convinced that the NA scene has everything there is to make and sustain players.
I don't want to wait until Starcraft 2 is dead for faithful fans to start appreciating lower-than-korean-level.
Get EG to do that, i heard they pay better salary to their players, than WCS America has in prize pool. Good luck
Geoff commentating will be enough motivation to get anyone a GSL trophy.
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On August 22 2013 21:03 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 20:08 jalen wrote:
Let me clear this, WCS American is not WCS for america player, its the WCS take place in North America. America is just the region names. It's just like WTA'S Australian OPEN is not only for Australian, American OPEN is not only for American. WCS is not WCG which you present your country, in WCS you just present yourself as a player. You want to see local pros in top 4 you better wish them training hard, not region lock out korean or foreigner. Yes but there are qualifying spots that ARE "region locked" for the Australian open. Look at the bracket for the Australian Open since that is the example you are choosing. There are people that qualify from regions of the world that might not be the best 128 tennis players but they are given a spot to help grow and promote the sport are the world. A lot of people are using examples of why not to region lock where there is actually some sort of mechanic in place to allot spots to lesser players/regions to ensure a diverse representation and grow the game. Golf does it, tennis does it, the Olympics do it. What is funny is that this system is actually being abused by b-team Koreans to get into the WCS and jump over better A-teamers, yet people have no problem with that and it's a similar situation of a lesser player getting a spot. It's better to be the 25th best Korean go play WCS America than it is to be the 12th best Korean playing in WCS Korea and not qualifying. If this doesn't change more high level Koreans will jump ship to other regions and then WCS Korea starts to dilute. The whole system just seems to be failing to do 2 things: Create exciting storylines Foster new and exciting talent. Those two things above are more important to growth and longevity than people realize. Casual fans and new fans get drawn in by the above. To the people that don't want some sort of region lock/spot allocation- you are being very shortsighted and the current system will continue to slowly bleed viewers.
In tennis there are 8 Wild Card Entries out of 128 participants. And there are specific rules on who gets these Wild Cards, being Australian/American is normally not one of them. Yes, there is a "Qualification" tournament for Australians for the AUS Open, but they gain 1 (!) Spot. The rest is distributed according to the normal rules regarding the Wild Card entries.
I don't think you can compare the situation in Tennis with Starcraft.
The main problem right now is not that the Koreans switch to different regions, but that the Koreans HAVE to switch to other regions. The Prizepool of the GSL has been reduced compared to earlier, the amount of GSL/OSL tournaments per year has been reduced, the amount of "weekend-tournaments" has been reduced - the Koreans just have to play in another region right now, because there's no way to gain money beside the 3 WCS seasons 2013.
I think it'd be really easy to fix the problem, you don't have to force the Koreans to play in Korea, you just got to make the Koreans WANT to play in their own region. There's no region lock required, if the players could make more money in Korea, they'd definitely play there.
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i guess hybrid system create more dramas.
you could probably see another WCS 'AMerica' in hybrid season final as well.
personally i prefer the old system in 2012, however i dont agree to be hold anywhere in china
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I totally agree with the idea of "hybrid" WCS, As i said in the original thread, just kill the challenger league, nobody watches it anyways.
Instead of challenger, we should have 4 ways for players to get into premier:
-having performed well in premier last season ( no changes here, i like this system)
- a "free entry" challenger league, where everyone could enter, basically an online tournament.
-A "region locked" tournament, citizen or residence based
-Top of the ladder. This could make GM truly competitive, and get an "entry point" to every aspiring pro, easier than big tournaments. I'm not sure about that one, with hackers and such, but i put it here anyways for 2 reasons. First, we talk a lot about "incentive" for pros to play, when there is a lack of tournaments. This would make the usual way of training more than that, GM would be a real "always on" tournament. 2ndly , i don't like trashing things because of hackers, i feel we should fight them, and remove them, not buid things around them.
And after that, premier gets on normally. You get groups with people from the region, top koreans, and even possibly unknown players who got here threw a whole lot of practice (being 1 on the ladder if it gets competitive will reward true workhorses).
I don't want changes in the premier format. I like seing koreans Vs foreigners, grubby defeating MVP was an awesome storyline. Grubby knocking out noname European is boring.
To conclude, as always, i'll scream "don't touch GSL", it has it's own system, and it works there. Let's just think on how to fix EU and NA.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 22 2013 22:07 Fiallach wrote:
-Top of the ladder. This could make GM truly competitive, and get an "entry point" to every aspiring pro, easier than big tournaments. I'm not sure about that one, with hackers and such, but i put it here anyways for 2 reasons. First, we talk a lot about "incentive" for pros to play, when there is a lack of tournaments. This would make the usual way of training more than that, GM would be a real "always on" tournament. 2ndly , i don't like trashing things because of hackers, i feel we should fight them, and remove them, not buid things around them.
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Imbatoss to the premier league! Hell yea!
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People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help.
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as i mentioned in the other thread, i dont see how the CON in the OP is applicable if only the tournaments are region locked. That doesnt mean foreigners cant practice with Koreans or play on the Korean ladder.
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EPT
