WCS 2014 - Hybrid System Possible?

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TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.

On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?

Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....

The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?

TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.

On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:



If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer.

On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?

Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....

The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?

TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.

On August 22 2013 17:30 rename wrote:


Did you watch MLG Summer Invite ?
Xenocider, Huk, hendralisk, qxc at the finals..
What was the viewercount?

On August 22 2013 17:30 rename wrote:


Did you watch MLG Summer Invite ?
Xenocider, Huk, hendralisk, qxc at the finals..
What was the viewercount?

On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?

Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....

The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?

TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.

On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?

Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....

The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?

TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.

On August 22 2013 17:26 ChosenSC2 wrote:


How can they develop to that point when all the money in the NA scene goes to Korean players? This is why in Korea they have the coaches, houses, managers, no jobs, no school, and play full-time. In NA you can't cuz we don't have the money in our scene. So its the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

You can't expect a college kid or someone working a full-time job to compete with someone who lives in a team house with 5 other pro-gamers, a coach, a manager, and has 14 hours a day to dedicate their life to nothing but being good...

On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:


Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level.

Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training.

Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition.

On August 22 2013 17:50 RParks42 wrote:
So we have 3 Code S regions, and apparently there is a problem because Foreign players aren't winning tournaments. I know this isn't exactly how everyone views it, but seriously? The level of competition in Starcraft 2 is at the highest it's ever been globally, and apparently the system is broken. How about instead of saying the system is broken, we recognize that just like Americans have a higher chance of getting into the NFL (American sport league, American audience, generally American players), that citizens of South Korea have a higher chance of being recognizable professionals in an activity that they have accepted to be worthy of "sport" status within their own country

On August 22 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:


Lets see how long it takes until you realize that 'elitist' people that want to see the highest level of games are not actually that much in the minority compared to the people that want to see local talent. I dare to say even those people will after a given time switch over and prefer to watch highest level.

Its plain boring. NA players have the same reason to be full-time as Koreans. Be good, win money, earn fame. Koreans have a higher risk and harder competition. NA scene did raise for example Scarlett who is one of the best if not best foreigner right now. EU scene did raise Stephano. Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training.

Truth is, you want mediocre players to be rewarded while lots of others don't see a scene building around mediocre players. Every player that has high NA level would not need to increase his level or at least not elevator it any further to win money and sustain themselves if you ban Koreans so whats the point? You are going to completely remove progress in skill taking out the competition.

On August 22 2013 17:46 ChosenSC2 wrote:


I never said ban Koreans... they are free to play in NA events if they move here like they require NA people to do if they want to play in GSL. If they wanna come here for months at a time to play in our events sure go ahead. Stephano / Scarlett can't just fly in to Korea for a weekend and roll out with 25k.

I want the best games possible to be played at every tournament just like everyone else. The only point I was making, is the NA scene will never catch up if we keep giving all the money in the NA scene money to Koreans. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. So unless there is some random influx of money in NA that doesn't go to Koreans and Korean teams, it will continue heading in the direction its heading. That's all I meant.

On August 22 2013 17:35 Prof wrote:
I have always thought that a "soft" region lock might work best. What I mean by this is there are no citizenship or residency restrictions however in order to play in a certain regions WCS tournaments you must play a large number of games on that regions ladder during the season (I haven't figured out what number of games would be appropriate but I am sure blizzard and everyone involved in the community could arrive at a useful number). This would solve the problem of NA and EU players not having strong enough practive partners on ladder to continue to improve their skill level. Also, this would force KR players to actually participate in improving the regions in which they play rather than just playing a very few games in the region each season which adds very minimal improvements to the skill of other regions.

Some people have suggested that the any player playing in a region should be a GM in that region as a restriction. Let's be honest here a Korean player could easily reach Grandmaster on NA or EU in about a day, two at the most. Just to show you the difference in skill level for players who are high GM on the Korean ladder, in the past day or so Scarlett and Taeja were recently playing on the EU ladder on Cella's account and in about 30 games or so raised his account from the middle of the EU ladder to #7. Imagine how easy it would be for them to take a new account up to GM if they can do this against great players in EU. Really the GM limitation is no limitation at all for players at that level however a set number of games played on that ladder would definitely be a limitation.

I like this compromise because it would still allow players like Scarlett, Snute, Naniwa, etc. to live in Korea yet still participate in their home regions. Also, I think this might give younger players more incentive to play ladder and improve. I think as a young up and coming player being able to play Hero or Jaedong on the NA ladder would be an incredible thrill that would keep me interested in the playing the game.

That's my 2 cents. I might be totally wrong but I thought I'd share.

On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:


I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship.

Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain.

"Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training."

Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible.

On August 22 2013 17:06 QuixoticO wrote:
We always want eSports to be more like real sports but yet people continue coming with backward ideas like this. Imagine if Beckham wasn't allowed to play for the Los Angelas Galaxy or Messi for Barcelona because people didn't want these star players to play in their countries. Because it would make it harder for the regions own players to compete on that level.

You only get on their level by trying to become as good as them. And not making your own league easier for the purpose of making easy money and sustainability of weaker players. It's harsh but it's the truth in any "real" sport too.

On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:


I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship.

Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain.

"Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training."

Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible.

On August 22 2013 16:53 FreedomSC2 wrote:
Perhaps an open regular season with a region lock for season finals based off points? That is just one idea. Lets try and think things through here. Lets start up a conversation :D I know there is a lot of people on these forums smarter then me; so I'm sure we can come up with something. Lets give blizzard some alternative ideas other then region lock or no region lock. We all know either way is harmful to one degree so lets look at a mix of them both for the best possible outcome.

On August 22 2013 18:09 NapkinBox wrote:
In the Dota 2 section there was a thread about the disappointing results of the Chinese teams in this year's International. One of the major points to why the Chinese played poorly is due to the lack of tournaments from 22 last year to a measly 5 this year, causing loss of motivation and laziness. That can relate to the NA scene.

Look at the very beginning of when Koreans started playing Starcraft. Local tournaments in every cafe for prize money or hardware. Every korean kid had a reason to play Starcraft 24/7 because they can play in tournaments, win money, and be famous. And look at where that has got them: establishing the top players from the first OSL to establishing KeSPA to GSL and now. Korea's eSport industry is established and now everyone has a reason to get into eSports.

What about the NA scene? Pretty much nothing. All we have is ladder and practice partners, and for what? Get to Masters league? We can't just fucking say "Oh, there's no NA scene because NA players are bad". The reason why there's no NA scene because there's nothing supporting the NA scene. There's no established body in NA that can take care of teams and players, there's not enough, if any, daily/weekly/monthly tournaments that can give prize money to amateur players, and yet people are convinced that the NA scene has everything there is to make and sustain players.

I don't want to wait until Starcraft 2 is dead for faithful fans to start appreciating lower-than-korean-level.

On August 22 2013 18:08 NarutO wrote:


TaeJa, Polt, HyuN, Jaedong, MVP ... all of the named are capable of taking games of the highest competition. Thats the nature of Starcraft. There's not a high enough skill ceiling for your skill to matter and elevator yourself above everyone else. Just as one example check out Jaedong vs INnoVation in proleague. Yes INnoVation is a better player, but he still lost as well as he lost to TaeJa. Speaking of 'highest level' I'm obviously aware that its WCS Korea, but if you want to argue if WCS NA / EU does increase in skill when those Koreans enter, yes it does.

I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself. MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak, I think even though he isn't as scary as before, he's still an excellent player. So, I don't see a reason why you would want to shit on the "b-teamers".

On August 22 2013 18:27 theking1 wrote:


Taeja,Polt,Hyn and jaedong have never won anything above a bo1 against any of the top 4 in kr,They won a maximum of bo1 which doesnt really count in a bo3 and bo5 format like the world finals.

"
I also disagree that all of them are fleeing Korea because they cannot win anything there, but they simply choose the easier path, logical choice as a progamer who needs to sustain himself

"
Yes they do run form korea because neither of them had won anything in korea for a very long time.They can not even qualify for the gsl or osl anymore.
the foreigners wanna do the same with easy wins so why hate on them?What about the foreign players that want to sustain themselves?
" MVP went toe-to-toe with INnoVation at his very peak"

he won 2 games in his favourite match up.and innovarion still managed to beat and manner mule him

On August 22 2013 18:31 riyanme wrote:
For the sake of arguement...

1. Make it region lock.
1.1 If your a foreigner for that region (example: Korean), you just need to play in person.
1.2 Strictly offline.
1.3 Your OWN account on that specific region; No borrows
1.4 Laddering all the way at least GM status strictly on that region.

2. Coping up with expenses.
2.1 Create teams like EG. Build team houses. Find sponsors.
2.2 Make an organinzation like KESPA to overlook that specific region.
2.3 Seek assistance/sponsorship from government
2.4 As for small timers, build a clan. Start a team like those in cafe.

3. IN SHORT, follow the footsteps as how Korea build esports in 1999.


I think with that NA and EU will grow. Slow yet helps build up a sence on that region.
Creates their own culture and makes the players motivated.
Think about the pride and glory of representing your country and region.
Gradually rising up their standards. Slow and steady wins the race.
As for the high competitiveness, SEE YOU AT THE SEASON FINALS.

On August 22 2013 18:29 NovemberstOrm wrote:

that makes him lesser somehow because it was his best match up? o_O
Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months.

Also I don't get how you would know if taeja,polt,hyun, and jaedong can beat "top korean pros" in a series(bo3 or higher) when they haven't played them in months.

On August 22 2013 18:53 theking1 wrote:




And who exactly prevented them form buying a train ticket to seoul and start playing in the up and downs for the code a and s qualifiers?OhI forgot..it is easier to buy a plane ticket to na and europe and stomp foreigners than meet bomber,maru,iinovaion,soulkey,rain,flash in one tournament than to beat naniwa,grubby,lucifron,mc etc.

On August 22 2013 18:53 theking1 wrote:




And who exactly prevented them form buying a train ticket to seoul and start playing in the up and downs for the code a and s qualifiers?OhI forgot..it is easier to buy a plane ticket to na and europe and stomp foreigners than meet bomber,maru,iinovaion,soulkey,rain,flash in one tournament than to beat naniwa,grubby,lucifron,mc etc.

On August 22 2013 19:24 MonkSEA wrote:
There's absolutely nothing stopping American players from doing what the Korean players are doing.. All it takes is some adjustment and actually putting in the hours into the game akin to putting in the hours to working a standard shift.

On August 22 2013 20:08 jalen wrote:
Let me clear this, WCS American is not WCS for america player, its the WCS take place in North America. America is just the region names. It's just like WTA'S Australian OPEN is not only for Australian, American OPEN is not only for American. WCS is not WCG which you present your country, in WCS you just present yourself as a player. You want to see local pros in top 4 you better wish them training hard, not region lock out korean or foreigner.

On August 22 2013 20:08 jalen wrote:
Let me clear this, WCS American is not WCS for america player, its the WCS take place in North America. America is just the region names. It's just like WTA'S Australian OPEN is not only for Australian, American OPEN is not only for American. WCS is not WCG which you present your country, in WCS you just present yourself as a player. You want to see local pros in top 4 you better wish them training hard, not region lock out korean or foreigner.

On August 22 2013 19:24 MonkSEA wrote:
There's absolutely nothing stopping American players from doing what the Korean players are doing.. All it takes is some adjustment and actually putting in the hours into the game akin to putting in the hours to working a standard shift.

On August 22 2013 21:03 NapkinBox wrote:


When people say that, no one ever backs it up. Care to be the first? Adjustments and putting hours into the game? How to do that? The answer is: more NA tournaments for NA players. With prize money. Daily, Weekly, Monthly tournaments too. Anything to have our NA players motivated to keep playing the game as much as they can. I'm actually surprised MLG has never thought of doing any tournaments for lesser players who want to make it big, who of course, ya know, can't buy a plane ticket, or are maybe even... poor. *shudders* Blizzard can also help increase the base skill level of playerbase with in-game tournaments within the client too. I'd love that.

Seriously, how is anyone going to be motivated to train for a game where they have to buy a plane ticket to each MLG, each Dreamhack, and Korean tournaments, expecting to win even ONE of them? This isn't South Korea, this is North Fucking-merica. I can't take a train and go to New York in a few hours feeling confident in winning... whatever tournament over there.

I believe there needs to be a lot of online tournaments. And I mean, alot of online tournaments. Doesn't matter if it's just for "points" for whatever system they're using, or actual prize money and hardware. Sooner or later, we'll have long-term, sponsored tournaments just for the amateur scene. NA players will have a reason to work hard and stay dedicated because these tournaments are huge opportunities for them to make a living. After some time, you'll start seeing foreigners taking top places in MLGs and Dreamhacks and being able to compete with the top Koreans. Why? Because there was a place for them to kick start their career: online, amateur tournaments.

Korean dominance all started in fucking PC Bangs for goodness sake.

The question is though, who will be the ones to start these tournaments? Maybe I'm just dreaming too much... Well, it IS 5:04 am!

Just bumping what I said earlier:
+ Show Spoiler +

On August 22 2013 21:11 lolfail9001 wrote:

Get EG to do that, i heard they pay better salary to their players, than WCS America has in prize pool. Good luck

On August 22 2013 21:03 FLuE wrote:


Yes but there are qualifying spots that ARE "region locked" for the Australian open. Look at the bracket for the Australian Open since that is the example you are choosing. There are people that qualify from regions of the world that might not be the best 128 tennis players but they are given a spot to help grow and promote the sport are the world. A lot of people are using examples of why not to region lock where there is actually some sort of mechanic in place to allot spots to lesser players/regions to ensure a diverse representation and grow the game. Golf does it, tennis does it, the Olympics do it.

What is funny is that this system is actually being abused by b-team Koreans to get into the WCS and jump over better A-teamers, yet people have no problem with that and it's a similar situation of a lesser player getting a spot. It's better to be the 25th best Korean go play WCS America than it is to be the 12th best Korean playing in WCS Korea and not qualifying. If this doesn't change more high level Koreans will jump ship to other regions and then WCS Korea starts to dilute.

The whole system just seems to be failing to do 2 things:

Create exciting storylines
Foster new and exciting talent.

Those two things above are more important to growth and longevity than people realize. Casual fans and new fans get drawn in by the above.

To the people that don't want some sort of region lock/spot allocation- you are being very shortsighted and the current system will continue to slowly bleed viewers.

On August 22 2013 22:07 Fiallach wrote:

-Top of the ladder. This could make GM truly competitive, and get an "entry point" to every aspiring pro, easier than big tournaments. I'm not sure about that one, with hackers and such, but i put it here anyways for 2 reasons. First, we talk a lot about "incentive" for pros to play, when there is a lack of tournaments. This would make the usual way of training more than that, GM would be a real "always on" tournament. 2ndly , i don't like trashing things because of hackers, i feel we should fight them, and remove them, not buid things around them.

.

On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help.

On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:


Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste.

It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics...

On August 22 2013 17:06 QuixoticO wrote:
We always want eSports to be more like real sports but yet people continue coming with backward ideas like this. Imagine if Beckham wasn't allowed to play for the Los Angelas Galaxy or Messi for Barcelona because people didn't want these star players to play in their countries. Because it would make it harder for the regions own players to compete on that level.

You only get on their level by trying to become as good as them. And not making your own league easier for the purpose of making easy money and sustainability of weaker players. It's harsh but it's the truth in any "real" sport too.

On August 22 2013 16:35 FreedomSC2 wrote:

CON's to Region Lock:
Player lose the chance to practice vs top level talent from around the world. Slowing growth.

On August 22 2013 17:06 QuixoticO wrote:
We always want eSports to be more like real sports but yet people continue coming with backward ideas like this. Imagine if Beckham wasn't allowed to play for the Los Angelas Galaxy or Messi for Barcelona because people didn't want these star players to play in their countries. Because it would make it harder for the regions own players to compete on that level.

You only get on their level by trying to become as good as them. And not making your own league easier for the purpose of making easy money and sustainability of weaker players. It's harsh but it's the truth in any "real" sport too.

On August 22 2013 23:42 NHY wrote:
Current WCS system is the result of Blizzard listening to the wrong crowd: whiners

Their chief complaint has been:

1) The big tournament (GSL) is in Korea, and
2) it is an offline event over a period of several months.

So what does Blizzard do? They creat 2 GSL-level (in terms of WCS points and prize money) tournaments for NA and EU to be held online with offline finals, (you can't have continent level (NA/EU) offline only tournaments over several month period, unlike ones at national level (Korea)) structured over a year with combined season finals and a big tournament at the end of the year. Now, without going in much detail, let's just remember that in the process of establishing current WCS system, Blizzard has destroyed existing esports scene across the globe. Where could possibly go wrong with that, right?

So Blizzard went all-in with 2013 WCS and the result has been catastrophic. They tried to be MVP in game 7, failed to even become BitByBit, ended up as ActionJesuz, in a manner of speaking. It's not like there has been a surprise in esports scene: Koreans winning WCS NA/EU and season finals, people wanting "local representative" for each WCS region (however justified they may be), and last but not least, declining KR scene. Even artosis could've made these predictions and he still would've been right.

Speaking of declining KR scene, did you know that neither OGN nor GomTV would be broadcasting WCS season 2 final for Korean audience? Instead there will be a "community stream." Sure, dedicated fans would surely still turn up to watch. It's not like WCS needs more exposure in Korea or added production value, right? In lieu of WCS, Koreans will have OGN's LoL broadcast and GomTV's Dota2/WoT broadcast to watch this weekend. (actually you could watch them back-to-back-ish with WCS since there will be only about an hour or so overlap, if either of them actually bothered to broadcast WCS)

Based on how quickly Blizzard has addressed issues in the past, its about time they noticed how much they screwed up. However, I wouldn't hold my breath until I hear that someone got the axe for decisions he made or something.

On August 23 2013 00:06 theking1 wrote:



This is certainly odd that gom and ogn will not broadcast live since both kespa,and esl have important players in the finals.I thought it would be in their own interest to promote their own players.So a lol and dota2 rebroacast brings more viewers than sc2 final?Very weird indeed if it is true,but since it is the korean market they probably care more about osl and gsl than any other foreign competition anyway

On August 23 2013 00:15 lolfail9001 wrote:

It is live broadcast for gomtv and ogn, they are not MLG's twitch :D. And yes, they care more about events actually played in Korea for obvious reasons (not to mention, that these groups will go until well over 2 AM for Korea).
And yes, i am all for someone actually investing money into trying to grow foreign SC2 scene, but there is 1 reason it won't happen: nobody with power to help it, cares about it. And trying to turn WCS into attempt to do it won't end well.

On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:


Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste.

It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics...

On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:

So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs.
And people still think they are not lazy?
You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing.

On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:


riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same?

On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:


riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same?

On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:

That is not a valid argument...

On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:

what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow.

@mcratyn

and blizz only does wcs.

On August 23 2013 00:32 lolfail9001 wrote:

TIL riot is competitor to Blizzard (yeah, ofc, they have their own MMORPG, RPG and RTS title that are all parts of franchise with good 10+ year old history).
TIL i learned that only developers should develop the scene and not the scene.
TIL blizzard only does wcs and only develops SC2
and ofc TIL that blizzard has constant source of income from SC2 and is entirely dependant on it.

On August 23 2013 00:44 theking1 wrote:


.....yeah man in the esports scene they are competitors like it or not.

I never said only developers develop the proscene-you pulled that out your ass
yeas you are right.blizzard only organizes wcs-can you point to me other tournaments directly organized by blizzard?
i never said anything about only developing sc2 or about its source of income-again pulling stuff out your ass.

On August 23 2013 00:42 FFW_Rude wrote:
What about region lock for teams ?

Exemple :

EG is a USA team and play in WCS America.
KT Rolster is a Korean team and play in WCS Korea
Millenium is a French team and play in WCS Europe.

You would have region lock based on teams. But Jaedong could still play WCS America because he is in a american team. If someone want to play in another region, they would have to join a foreign team. (I know that's not something you can do easily).

You would have teams that keep out koreans because they can't afford it but still have good players (i have none in mind) but could still exist (do mouz have koreans ?).

If for exemple StarTale wants to play WCS America. Well... They have to move the team in the country. (not really possible i know).

I don't really have thought that well on the subject. But maybe it's an idea you could discuss between people that know what they are talking about (unlike me :p).

I don't watch soccer, but i know that french teams have spanish, italian or even brasilian players. And i know a lot of teams in other country have as well.

On August 23 2013 00:52 lolfail9001 wrote:

Now i understand the joke about Romanians.
First of all, name me a game, currently developed by Riot, that is not LoL.
Second, name me source of income for Riot (and we all know what is it).
Third, Blizzard only organizes wcs.... True that. If you forget about blizzcon's existence and bear in mind, that wcs is blizzcon's qualifier.
And last, why would you put riot as example, when this is developer that tries to develop the scene, because the scene refuses to do it itself it seems (except for Korea, but it is Korea and LoL is popular there... what else needs to be done).
And last, Blizzard and Riot are indirect competitors via their games and last time i checked Blizzard almost never involved themselves in the scene, except for Blizzcon's invitationals, so they do not even compete with Riot.

On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:



If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer.

On August 23 2013 01:06 Noobity wrote:


Looks like an endless cycle of never having any NA pros to me, then. To expect someone to take months or years of their lives doing nothing but starcraft without a shot at earning is beyond unreasonable. There is no other sport that provides 0 chance for some form of compensation or reason to compete (financial or otherwise) to everyone, at least not in the USA. Starcraft doesn't have full paid scholarship opportunities or sanctioned school teams. It doesn't have amateur or semi-pro leagues with paid salaries.

In order to be as good as a Korean player and still move forward with your life you essentially have to spend your 8 or so hours in school and another 8 or so hours every day working on your hobby. NA pros don't have the same team structure that they have in KR, where they can prove they're good and be a practice opponent at the least, with room and board provided simply by showing talent. They might not be moving forward with their lives but they're sure as shit not killing themselves incurring debt or working a second job essentially to survive.

I simply don't understand this logic. In every single one of these threads there are always people saying "well they suck, they shouldn't play". I do not for the life of me understand that mentality, where we expect players to take risks. Pro players don't even make that much money is what is so mind boggling to me. Why do we require something with such a high probability of failure for so little chance at reward and think of that as acceptable? I could understand it if there was something like, I dunno, large portions of college paid for, or even small weekly tournaments to allow these semi pro players to earn some form of living, but there simply isn't that. This mentality is doing nothing but crushing the chances of the NA scene to grow because "we want to see the best games". I just cannot wrap my head around this.

On August 23 2013 01:01 theking1 wrote:


you are totally off topic and racist at the same time.But it is not wonder.The discussion I had with the other users was specifically about the proscene since this topic is only about the proscene.And blizzcon is not a tournament.You you are referring to the early gsls those were gsl not blizzcon.Eccept for some beta stuff blizzard did not have any tournaments.This has got to be the most topic,incoherent,illogical post I have ever red on this website.And it comes from a racist russian.The things you say about riot,blizzard etc have nothing to do with what I have discussed with the other users or about the topic of this thread.Please take your racist romanian jokes elsewhere.But hey racism is okay as long as it is directed against people from easterm europe no one cares about.If it were jokes about jews or blacks it would have been an instaban but jokes about romanians are okay.Who cares about the 50 years of communism behind th eiron curtain the soviets brought or about the 200k romanians dead in political gulags because moscow wanted so.Bleah racist russian,Never speak to me again.

On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:

what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow.

@mcratyn

and blizz only does wcs.

On August 23 2013 01:06 Noobity wrote:


Looks like an endless cycle of never having any NA pros to me, then. To expect someone to take months or years of their lives doing nothing but starcraft without a shot at earning is beyond unreasonable. There is no other sport that provides 0 chance for some form of compensation or reason to compete (financial or otherwise) to everyone, at least not in the USA. Starcraft doesn't have full paid scholarship opportunities or sanctioned school teams. It doesn't have amateur or semi-pro leagues with paid salaries.

In order to be as good as a Korean player and still move forward with your life you essentially have to spend your 8 or so hours in school and another 8 or so hours every day working on your hobby. NA pros don't have the same team structure that they have in KR, where they can prove they're good and be a practice opponent at the least, with room and board provided simply by showing talent. They might not be moving forward with their lives but they're sure as shit not killing themselves incurring debt or working a second job essentially to survive.

I simply don't understand this logic. In every single one of these threads there are always people saying "well they suck, they shouldn't play". I do not for the life of me understand that mentality, where we expect players to take risks. Pro players don't even make that much money is what is so mind boggling to me. Why do we require something with such a high probability of failure for so little chance at reward and think of that as acceptable? I could understand it if there was something like, I dunno, large portions of college paid for, or even small weekly tournaments to allow these semi pro players to earn some form of living, but there simply isn't that. This mentality is doing nothing but crushing the chances of the NA scene to grow because "we want to see the best games". I just cannot wrap my head around this.

On August 23 2013 01:17 lolfail9001 wrote:

See, the endless cycle starts at point of reasonable refusal of NA (and well, most of ) pros to sacrifice everything for becoming SC2 pro. That's what koreans do in order to have a career at SC2. And all they have starting this point is some part-time job (at most), ability to leave in team house (if they actually get picked up by team, and for that you must actually get some exposure, be it by beating someone in some qualifier or some other way). If NA scene actually gets something that will give it's players exposure (well, never mind, they already had it) and actually will have teams that shall dare to accept such a suicidal passionate player, who will only require place to live at and some meal to eat, while being a practice partner and what not, we may actually have a train's start. But never mind, since SC2 is not getting any big any time soon.

On August 23 2013 01:13 Prog455 wrote:


Dude - Riot is by no means a small competitor to Blizzard's SC2 department. Yes, i say Blizzard's SC2 department because guess what? SC2 is not blizzards only game, and thus should not be their only concern. SC2 as a game does not generate a dime after it has been sold, where as LoL is a huge cash-cow with all the micro-transactions going on.

Also i think you should get your shit together. You have have not said anything wise in this thread at all.

On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:

To be fair to NA players, they do not have the same "path" that the Korean players have, since there is not Esports center like in Korea. A rising Korean amateur player can go to Seoul, try to make their name and get into a team house. An NA player does not have that step to go through and simply must practice on the NA ladder(or KR if that is possible for them depending on where they are in NA) and hope to do well in either the WCS qualifiers or some other open bracket event.

I agree that aspiring NA players can't expect to be paid salaries right off the bat. But they lack the ability to cut their teeth and get feed back on how they are playing. Playing once a season in the WCS won't do it. There needs to be some sort of middle ground where players can compete on a level that fits them. Even if it is $1,000 NA only cups that are online or and don't allow players already qualified for the WCS to compete.

On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:

what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow.

@mcratyn

and blizz only does wcs.

On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:


Riot runs everything from top to bottom, including employ all the players. It is a totally unproven system that could end the instant Riot starts doing poorly or can't afford it any more. It is a system that works well now, but provides the scene nothing to fall back on if Riot stops doing LCS.

On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:

what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow.

@mcratyn

and blizz only does wcs.

On August 22 2013 23:58 BronzeKnee wrote:


Aren't you forgetting that there is a global finals? Thus, the best players from EU and NA would get the chance to play the other best players in the world even if the regions are locked.

Many Koreans do not practice on the EU and NA ladders, despite playing in WCS EU or AM. So I don't think they are losing a chance to practice. Surely, you don't mean that WCS itself gives practice, right? Because playing a couple of Bo3's and getting smashed is not practice, that is competition. In competition, you (should) do whatever gives you the best chance to win, while in practice, you refine and tweak the strategies you plan to do in competition by drilling them and trying to new things.

Playing Koreans in WCS NA is not the place to refine and tweak the strategies.

That whole line of thinking, that people need to play Koreans in regional WCS games or they won't get better is flawed. Stephano is a living example of how wrong it is, he practiced on the EU ladder, then went to smash a bunch Koreans at IPL.

On August 23 2013 00:42 FFW_Rude wrote:
What about region lock for teams ?

Exemple :

EG is a USA team and play in WCS America.
KT Rolster is a Korean team and play in WCS Korea
Millenium is a French team and play in WCS Europe.

You would have region lock based on teams. But Jaedong could still play WCS America because he is in a american team. If someone want to play in another region, they would have to join a foreign team. (I know that's not something you can do easily).

You would have teams that keep out koreans because they can't afford it but still have good players (i have none in mind) but could still exist (do mouz have koreans ?).

If for exemple StarTale wants to play WCS America. Well... They have to move the team in the country. (not really possible i know).

I don't really have thought that well on the subject. But maybe it's an idea you could discuss between people that know what they are talking about (unlike me :p).

I don't watch soccer, but i know that french teams have spanish, italian or even brasilian players. And i know a lot of teams in other country have as well.

On August 23 2013 02:32 FreedomSC2 wrote:


Thanks for the question it is a great one. I didn't clearly write that out but what I meant was that we wouldn't have consistent practice on a month to month basis. As with a tight region lock setup we would only get practice vs Koreans in 1 event compared to where if we do a hybrid it could be weekly or even monthly. Young up and coming players really need the bar set for them to see what is required to become a true professional gamer. If NA ladder is all these youngsters have they won't be growing as fast as they would if they had the best competition.

Someone has already made a great statement in terms of Stephano and Scarlett earlier in the thread. About their growth being statistical insignificant compared to the vast majority of gamers who are struggling. If we stay in the current system yes we could see growth in the future but all the gamers out of school would be forced to retire and we would need to wait for the next generation of youngsters to come up and make use of that practice well attending school. Even then it would be tough to consistent earn cash.

Thank you for joining the conversation ;D

On August 23 2013 02:36 lolfail9001 wrote:

I still have not seen explanation of what is regular season in your proposal. If you mean group stages then regional season finals are screwed up, because groups have koreans and your finals must somehow do not have 'em.

Just give players native to the region x number of premier league seeds through a separate qualifier, while allowing koreans (and players native to the region who want a second chance to qualify) to have a qualifier for the remaining spots. Not only would it guarantee NA/EU players get more exposure, it would also make getting into NA/EU premier harder for koreans, thus discouraging playing outside of your region. It would also make the level of play in premier league higher without completely killing the local scene.

On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:
Riot runs everything from top to bottom, including employ all the players. It is a totally unproven system that could end the instant Riot starts doing poorly or can't afford it any more. It is a system that works well now, but provides the scene nothing to fall back on if Riot stops doing LCS.

On August 23 2013 03:13 canikizu wrote:

Believe it or not, Riot's LCS is more sustainable than Blizzard's WCS because:
- SC2 is a paid to play game, so there will come a time Blizzard run out of money to run WCS, and if Blizzard wants to continue to run WCS, they will have to use money from WoW or D3 to run SC2, which is incredibly not healthy.
- LoL can provide a consistent income for Riot, so you can easily scale the tournament's prize and structure to fit your income. If LoL is getting bigger and bigger -> more income -> LCS will have bigger prize, and vice versa, if the game is getting smaller -> prize pool will also get smaller, but it's still a sustainable tournament. Take Heroes of Newerth for example, it basically runs the same as LoL, but the concurrent player number is only 100k, which is way way smaller, and yet they still have big, global tournaments and stuff. Their global tournaments are not as big as LoL or Dota2, but they still attracts a lot of teams and players, and believe it or not, it's getting bigger although very slow.

And you're kind of wrong about LoL tournaments. Although Riot runs LCS, there're a bunch of other tournaments that are run by various organizations. What Riot does is that they pay LCS's players so that LCS teams don't compete in smaller tournaments. Teams like LGD, Vici, mouz, Copenhagen Wolf, Complexity, FXO,.... are not in LCS, and they are still playing in other tournaments that are paid by organizations and sponsors, such as Assembly, Dreamhack, Steelseries APD,..v.v. If you look at LCS and claim the state of LoL, you're severely misjudged. Non-LCS tournaments are where you can find the massive amount of amateur teams and inspiring LCS teams which is the core of the scene. There're tournaments that prize pool only $1000, $3000 but you have 64, 128 amateur teams registered and played. You can't even find 32 teams to play a $5000 tournament in Dota2, or 128 players to play $5000 tournament in SC2, let alone 5-man team.

On August 23 2013 03:39 Kazeyonoma wrote:


over 600 teams registered for eizo cup for dota2. Stop slurping on riot and LoL with misinformation about other games.

On August 23 2013 03:10 StarStruck wrote:
Another one of these threads? How many times we have to go through this? You even posted in the other threads. How about having just one thread when it comes to the format and be done with it? You know why your comments get lost? It's because people don't read and heck I've said the same thing well over one hundred times already myself and when you create new threads like this all it does is add to the pile. With that said, people have lost sight of what the prelims really stand for. We have half a dozen organizations that host big LAN tournaments. The question is will this scene ever have the money to send every top tier pro to every OPEN event? We would have to follow the Western model, which would run very similar to a PGA/APT Tour. Each organization already hosts around 4 events a year. Think about it. You could have a Major Open Tournament practically every other week (each organization would act as host depending on region and location). The real problem is the expenses for the players/teams. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing because this would be a good way to weed out a lot of the shabby teams and in return we get a higher barrier to entry for having a legitimate team. Preferably (here I go repeating myself again) I much rather have a World Tour Circuit where fans get to meet all the best players and we would be increasing the competitive level with all of them facing one another on a more regular basis. It's good for the fans; it's good for marketing the players; and, you create a legitimate measuring stick and system for the players. We can have a Major League and a Minor League this way. I know maybe 3-4 people will read this post just like my other several hundred posts with regards to it and I know we're a long way away from anything that resembles this sort of system. Maybe something like this will happen several years from now because the money just isn't really there yet when it comes to getting the VISAs, flights, accommodations, food, etc. for the players.

On August 23 2013 06:57 shabby wrote:
This is a discussion we've had a lot of times before, imo. I don't get why people think it should be easy or even attainable to live off of pro-gaming if you're not very good. No other sports let you practice full-time without being on a pro-team (or having sponsors/own funds).. Do what everyone else is doing and get a job on the side. If that doesn't work, then tough luck.. It's not like its easier for anyone else. You don't hear about the thousands of korean gamers that put their eggs in SC2 and never made it. If anything its easier outside of korea since the level is lower.

It is a glass half-empty kind of thing, and it I don't have a solution for getting foreigners up to par. But its not OK to lock the regions and lower the bar inside. Players should be able to play where they want, and if you keep getting crushed or can't find a way to practice hard enough then maybe SC2 isn't for you.

On August 23 2013 09:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maybe instead of a full region lock, just limit the slots available to people outside the region? So, 8 slots of RO32 premiere for WCS AM will be available for players that live outside of that region or something like that.

On August 23 2013 10:02 HeeroFX wrote:



That could work out actually. but how do you decide who gets in?

On August 23 2013 10:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:


Dunno, hadn't thought that far ahead to be honest. I like the idea of region locking, but I also like the idea of stuff like MLB/NFL where top talent from other countries can come in and play. It's just a dicey issue all around imo.

On August 23 2013 10:55 FLuE wrote:


Posted something similar on previous page, except a bit opposite of yours by making 4-8 spots region locked and the rest open to anyone like the current system. My suggestion was to have an open bracket that was region locked that any masters or gm players could compete in. Top 4 finishers get placed into the regional premier league and if they get knocked out move into the challenger league just like any other player would. At that point they can fight through the challenger league + compete in the next seasons open bracket. This would essentially allow for 2 chances for region locked players to get spots to stay in the premier region, while still keeping an "open" system for a majority of the spots.

I don't think the entire region should be locked, however I don't think it would hurt to have 4-8 spots that were for each regions premier league. At the least it creates interest to see how those players do, maybe an up and comer has a great run through the open bracket and now all the sudden everyone wants to see if they can compete when thrown into the fire. Those types of stories and chances will be what motivates foreigners. I know it is easy for everyone to say "hey if you want it that bad quit everything and go for it!" And I do agree to some degree, but you need that realistic carrot as well. It is much more attainable to think you can get work hard and qualify in an open bracket that is region locked than thinking how you are going to qualify against 32 Koreans.

On August 23 2013 11:01 KrazyTrumpet wrote:


Yeah, which is why I think the limited slots should be for outsiders. Would you rather play against 8 Koreans or 24 Koreans? Neither solution seems perfect, though. It ultimately comes down to interest in each region's scene.

On August 24 2013 05:07 mvdunecats wrote:


If SC2 players from NA feel that they don't have a shot at making a living with SC2 and turn to things outside of eSports, then no format change to WCS NA can overcome that, because it's a more general problem with eSports in NA.

On August 24 2013 05:07 mvdunecats wrote:
How many aspiring professional SC2 players from NA have retired from SC2 in order to play LoL or DotA2? I can really only think of Destiny, but he's more of an outlier in that he is more of an entertainer than a competitor.

If SC2 players from NA feel that they don't have a shot at making a living with SC2 and turn to things outside of eSports, then no format change to WCS NA can overcome that, because it's a more general problem with eSports in NA.

On August 28 2013 11:02 Op wrote:
Just a weird question: why do we have 3 different WCS tournaments (KR, EU, NA) ?

If we all would want to see the best games, then why not have one big tournament in Korea (like GSL before) ? Or have all 3 tournaments in Korea so the best players can participate and qualify for the finals ?

BTW: love the discussions, some very interesting points, especially having 'x' spots for non-resident players, and the team-based region seem quite interesting

On August 24 2013 20:40 FetusThrower wrote:
Region lock doesn't work because..
-Doesn't allow growth within weaker scenes
-Doesn't allow talent from other countries to come out (i.e. korean scene suffocation)
-Causes crazily imba season finals (practically walkovers)

On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?

Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....

The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?

TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.

On September 04 2013 11:04 rd wrote:


Koreans flying out to foreign events and stomping foreigners doesn't make foreigners better. They need practice with Koreans, not a couple bo3's before getting rolled. It can offer an incentive to Koreans to move to foreign countries to compete and play on the region's server and practice with their players, which does fuel growth.

On August 28 2013 11:18 Op wrote:
People who preferred the GSL model or want to watch the best games, would probably be best off by watching the Korean WCS. The only problem is that a lot of the best players (like Taeja, Hero, etc) are playing in WCS NA now.
The solution would be to have these players play in the Korean WCS as well. We could encourage this by increasing the prize pool for WCS Korea: the prize money of what-used-to-be-GSL + whatever Blizzard adds to the current WCS Korea prize money.

WCS EU and NA could then be (partially) region-locked, with maybe less high-level play but interesting story lines, local players to cheer for, and providing the necessary money for the local scenes to develop themselves. Korean players who would want to participate in EU or NA would have to live there or there could be a requirement on the number of ladder games played on the local server, a limited-spots qualifier or something like this (goal here is to have them practice in the region, so they help local players improve). People who would only want to watch the best games with the best players, would then avoid EU and NA and only watch the WCS KR (and the finals).

The WCS finals could then have representation based on the results of the previous finals, so for example 10 spots for players from WCS Korean, 3 from EU and 3 from NA. This might also encourage Korean players to play in WCS Korea because there are more spots for the finals.When players from for example NA would do better during the finals, then they would earn additional spots for the next finals.

In summary, a combination of many things already proposed by others in previous posts.

On September 04 2013 09:08 Sherlock117 wrote:
...

I come at this with a pretty big background in tennis and understand all levels of the pro scene very well there. I am currently working on developing pro tennis competition in my local area. So my thoughts on this will be very biased towards what is done there. However, I think the Starcraft competitive scene most resembles the tennis competitive scene and should learn as many lesson from it as possible. People try to compare Starcraft to other sports, usually team sports, but the infrastructure is too different to come at it from this view point.
...

Point scaling is a very easy fix. Tennis has the very most important tournaments, the grand slams, worth twice as much as the still-important-but-not-quite-as-much tournaments. This feels like a good balance. Leave season finals where they are at, but make Tier I tournaments worth twice as much as they are currently (winner gets 1500 instead of 750) and payout points further down in the standings on a tournament-by-tournament basis.

On September 04 2013 09:08 Sherlock117 wrote:
First of all, sorry for the long post. I've been thinking long and hard about how the system works and have some thoughts that I want to explain. But to really explain things requires some words!

I think the WCS is pretty good actually, but with a few tweaks a lot more can be accomplished. One problem with WCS I've heard Xenocider mention is that right now there are basically 3 opportunities in a year for up-and-comers to make a name for themselves in the WCS qualifiers. Is it worth it for an up-and-comer to devote 30+ hours a week for a very small chance to qualify and maybe win $100 once every couple months?

Some of the biggest problem with the current WCS system I see are:
1. Suffocation by Korean pros
2. Not enough opportunities for up-and-comers to make a name
3. Prize money not properly scaling
4. WCS points not properly scaling

I come at this with a pretty big background in tennis and understand all levels of the pro scene very well there. I am currently working on developing pro tennis competition in my local area. So my thoughts on this will be very biased towards what is done there. However, I think the Starcraft competitive scene most resembles the tennis competitive scene and should learn as many lesson from it as possible. People try to compare Starcraft to other sports, usually team sports, but the infrastructure is too different to come at it from this view point.

So now I would like to explain what I mean by each of these problems and propose some solutions. Maybe these aren't perfect solutions, but I hope you think about them and maybe tweak them a little bit yourself to make them even better.

1. Suffocation by Korean pros

This one is pretty obvious. WCS America is just another region for Koreans to compete, albeit mostly Koreans who are popular in the American scene. How can we get people to be interested in watching WCS America? What would make people want to tune in?

Personally, I find myself making sure to tune in when it is one of my favorite players playing an important match, and my favorite players are either popular Koreans or Europeans who play my race Terran (so Polt, Taeja, Lucifron, Happy) or almost ANY American player (Scarlett, ViBe, HuK, etc.). In the WCS Season 2 Global Finals the player I cared about most was Scarlett, followed by Polt and Naniwa. I did whatever I could to make sure I would be able to watch the Scarlett vs Bomber quarterfinal. This match was an very important (and competitive) match involving a player I cared about.

So to summarize, an all-korean WCS America is boring, and a region locked WCS America would be lame to watch. Let's make it something we want to watch! How do we do this?

2. Not enough opportunities for up-and-comers to make a name

Again, as it stands right now, the motivation for an up-and-comer to devote 30 hours a week for several months of intensive training is to try his hand at the WCS qualifiers 3 times a year and maybe, maaaaaaaybe get a spot in premier league. This is the problem people have been talking about in this thread and some people aren't understanding. Yes, the American players just aren't as good as Koreans in general, but the main issue is there is little motivation for Americans to become good right now. In order to increase motivation there needs to be a good scaling of goals (different levels of prize money) which are obtainable for local up-and-comers at the lower levels.

3. Prize money not properly scaling

The way I see WCS currently, if you qualify for WCS challenger league, great! That's a step in the right direction. But you win absolutely no money unless you qualify for premier league. If you do, you either get $100, $200, or $300 depending on which slot you qualified through (bracket stage, group stage 1st place, or group stage 2nd place). But wait, if you do qualify, you get an additional $1500 next season by playing in premier league. So as a challenger league player you should actually look at it as I either make nada, nothing, zilch, or I make $1600-$1800. In my opinion, that gap is the biggest single issue with WCS not creating opportunities for the up and coming players.

Then, there is no difference between 25-32 and 17-24 in premier league and only a very small difference between that and 9-16.

4. Points not properly scaling

The issue is exactly the same as the issue above. Non-qualifying players get 25 points, qualifying players get either 150 or 200. That's too big a gap and the 25 points are basically worthless. But there is another, more important issue with ranking points. At this point, the rankings are essentially only worhwhile to people trying to qualify for the year end finals. I'm fine with that for now, though it is something to improve in the future.

Blizzard wanted to make sure to not completely stifle other tournaments and throw out some points for other tournaments satisfying certain requirements. But the way I see it, the only qualifyers for the year end finals (the only thing the rankings are good for right now) will be those who made it to season finals at least twice, or placed in the top 2 at one of the season finals. Essentially nothing else matters. So instead of rewarding consistent performance and determining who the best player is, the rankings reward the players who perform well over a 3 day period.

A few examples:

A consistent player who finishes 9th-16th in a couple WCS seasons and maybe just couldn't push through in a 3rd season and finishes 6th place, while winning several non-WCS tournaments (maybe an IEM and an MLG) should be considered a possible candidate for being in the top 16 players in the world. This person would have something like 2600 points and probably finish the year ranked 25-30.

A player who does absolutely nothing in non-WCS tournaments, only qualifies for one WCS season, scrapes by in 5th place, and then somehow miraculously wins the global finals ends up with 3500 points and something like 10th-15th. The biggest issue to me is that finishing 6th in a season gets you 500 points, while finishing 5th gets you 1000 points, and finishing 4th gets you 1250 points. That's just a wonky point scale and needs to be tweaked.

Or somebody like Naniwa has some really solid results in WCS and out and is in the running for the year-end-finals, but then has one bad day by dropping to challenger league in the round of 32 and now has 0 chance of making it. Why? His only hope at this point would be to win at least 1 Tier I non-WCS tournament and one or two Tier II tournaments.

Solutions?

I said I would come at this with a view of how tennis works, because I think Starcraft would succeed very much if they tweaked some things in the way they are done with tennis.

4. Point scaling

Point scaling is a very easy fix. Tennis has the very most important tournaments, the grand slams, worth twice as much as the still-important-but-not-quite-as-much tournaments. This feels like a good balance. Leave season finals where they are at, but make Tier I tournaments worth twice as much as they are currently (winner gets 1500 instead of 750) and payout points further down in the standings on a tournament-by-tournament basis.

Possibly reduce the WCS seasons so the winner gets 1000 and so on appropriately as these tournaments are more money winners for the players and exclusive qualifiers for season finals. Right now there is too much double-dipping of points each season within WCS tournaments making non-WCS tournaments irrelevant.

Tier II tournaments could be either 750 or 1000 depending on prize money, again with more spots getting points lower down. A new Tier III tournament tier could be added awarding somewhere between 200-500 points to the winner depending on prize money. These could be region locked tournaments.

3. Money scaling

Another easy fix without the answer being "More money!". Change the money for premier league to:

25-32: $750
17-24: $1250
13-16: $1750
9-12: $2500

This makes each win in Premier league worthwhile. What else does it do? It frees up an additional $9000 in the prize money that can be used elsewhere! Where? In challenger league and it's qualifiers. This actually doesn't make the 17-32 finishers lose out as much as you think because they will won some more money down in challenger league. It just spreads more money to challenger league players.

Changes for the challenger league? Have the bracket stage be about winning the money, have the group stage be about qualifying for premier league or challenger league next season. Bracket winners get $500, runners-up get $300, 3rd place gets $200, and first round losers $100. That only eats up $4800 of the extra money and everyone who qualifies gets paid!

What about the rest of the money? Hold off a minute and I'll give you my thought.

2. More opportunities for up-and-comers

Increase the number of qualifiers and drop outs each season of wcs to 24 instead of 8, adding an additional round to the bracket stage of challenger league with the winners getting $0 (or maybe $50?).

Have qualifiers spread throughout the WCS season, once every few weeks. Some are open to anybody and offer no prize money, only challenger league qualification. Some are region locked and offer some of that $4000 leftover prize money as well as challenger league qualification.

Oh, wait! That also solves some of #1, suffocation by Korean pros, while at the same time not region locking!!!!

I'm a numbers guy, so I could go into more detail about how the wcs system should work and give exact numbers and all that, but that's not necessary. Try and get the big idea

So please consider this, and maybe offer some tweaks that would make it even better!

On September 04 2013 13:09 vthree wrote:


Although I agree with the many of these points. I just want to point out the issue with points scaling (more points for non-WCS events). Unlike tennis where most of the top 50 pros can attend most of the tournaments. This is not the case for non-WCS events like MLG, Dreamhack, etc. Sure, some tournaments have qualifiers. But it still doesn't take away the fact that the EG, TL, players (and HyuN) just gets a lot more opportunity to attend foreign events.

On September 04 2013 12:45 Kaitlin wrote:


What a warped community. Tournaments are about the best game play. What kind of a joke organization would go out of its way to deliberately drop the quality of game play comprising two-thirds of its product ? If people want to watch their favorites play sub-optimally, they can watch their streams and subscribe to support them.

On September 04 2013 13:54 Nerski wrote:
It's pretty obvious how blizzard already plans to pseudo region lock the thing...they've said multiple times they want to move EU/NA to more and more offline play (maybe for 2014?). Pretty plain and simple if weeks of the tournament go to offline mode instead of days, you'll see Koreans not wishing to leave Korea drop like flys.

The issue isn't will WCS become more region based, it's by the time that it does will the scene in the EU/NA still be healthy. That's why you see people who are pro's in those scenes be proponents of region locks. It's not because they 'need' it to be truly locked, they just need the people playing in the scene to be invested in it.

On August 22 2013 17:59 theking1 wrote:


I think your logic is preety flawed.First of all the highes tlevel of play in sc2 as you call it isn tin wcs na or wcs eu it is in wcs korea aka gsl and osl.That is the highest level of play.What you see in WCS NA ans WCS EU are called B TEAMERS or OVERTHEHILL players such as MVP and Nestea who can not make it in wcs kr anymore.They aren't highest level of play.In fact they are very low by korean standards.The highest levle of play right now in the sc2 world is Maru,Innovation,Bomber,Rain.Nothing less nothing more and most likely one of them will win the word championship.

Now in na and eu nobody wants to see B treamers and OVERTHETOP players hence the record low viewing numbers even in eu this year(do not give me ti3 excuse).Continental players are much better in attracting viewers and promoting the game,And it also does not hurt the competitive scene since one of the top 4 of wcs korea will win the world championship anyways.Whether it is tlo,grubby,mc,jaedong or duckdeok they will still get demolished by bomber,innovation,maru and rain.

"Now tell me how those two are outstanding examples and no other player could achieve their level due to training."

Scarlett does very bad with top koreans and stephano is an exception(1 player of of hundreds of foreigners is very statistically insignificative and even he didnt win anything in korea).The only players that did something at the HIGHEST LEVEL OF PLAY as you like to call it are Jinro,naniwa and Idra who went to korea and actually went to higher stages of the gsl but that was a t the beggining. Nowadays it is nearly impossible.

On August 22 2013 16:35 FreedomSC2 wrote:
Introduction:

Hello everyone,

I have been involved in the Starcraft II scene since its early years. I have worked with some phenomenal players not only on my teams but also in events I have helped oversee. I have kept in touch with several players top within the scene who have shared their opinions on the current WCS situation.

I understand there is currently a debate going on discussing whether or not region locking is the best possible solution to resolve the issue. I personally was against region locking in the beginning because as a former manager I know what practice vs the best players in the world can do to up and coming talent.

I have changed my view a bit on the topic though as I have spoken to several excellent players who have been forced to almost retire due to the difficulty of having time to train in the NA scene. In order to play full time you need to either be a student, work very few hours, or be on a Premier team in NA.

I believe though there may be another way to look at this dilemma. What about a possible Hybrid system? A system where players can get the practice they need vs Koreans to excel well also leaving enough resources on the table for up and coming gamers to support themselves on their gaming endeavors.

I believe such a system could be possible but I think as a community it is something we need to come up with together. I know there is a lot of smart people in this community and the energy we all share well debating this topic is tremendous. Perhaps we should look for a possible solution outside the "yes or no" region lock discussions.

I have decided to start this topic because I wanted to see if anyone in the community could share ideas to possibly help blizzard out in providing an alternative option that would give the players the best of both worlds.

PRO's to Region Lock:
Players have a chance to make enough money to sustain full time training to become better players.

CON's to Regon Lock:
Player lose the chance to practice vs top level talent from around the world. Slowing growth.

Possible Hybrid:
Could we create a system where a regular season has no region lock and season finals with region lock. So we get the experience from playing top level koreans well still being able to earn enough money to train full time. Perhaps a point system? Tell us what you think.

Original WCS Post in other thread:
I posted a comment in the other WCS thread but I wanted to create a sepertage post for it so it doesn't get lost in the pages. Here is my intial comments in the other post:

I can see both sides of the debate. I know several former pro players who had to stop playing due to the financial aspect of it. If we can give NA players the chance to earn money more players can play full time but they would need to get the korean practice experience elsewhere. So its sort of a balancing effect if they were to do region locking. NA players would need to find a way to practice vs koreans which is very difficult without lag over servers. Brings up an interesting discussion for sure. Initially I was all for keeping it open as it raised the skill level but the truth is there isn't many na players besides those on top teams that can afford to train the way koreans do. There is no gaming houses where food and what not is provided. Perhaps those interested who have spare cash look at opening up a korean style team house. I know I would If i had the money.

Another Idea:
Perhaps they need to look at a new system that allows NA/EU/KR players to play against each other in the regular seasons but have region locks in effect for season finals. I don't see how to do it but im sure a system could be created. There are a lot of people smarter then me. Why don't we discuss ways this might be possible? give blizzard some ideas?

This would give us the best of both worlds. Players get the experience of playing vs Koreans and they have the chance to earn money to keep the na scene robust.

If you have anything to contribute to this conversation please do. I believe something is possible if we can turn some of that energy we are putting into the debate into some creative alternative solutions. :D Hope to hear from you guys.

Freedom.

On August 28 2013 11:02 Op wrote:
Just a weird question: why do we have 3 different WCS tournaments (KR, EU, NA) ?

If we all would want to see the best games, then why not have one big tournament in Korea (like GSL before) ? Or have all 3 tournaments in Korea so the best players can participate and qualify for the finals ?

BTW: love the discussions, some very interesting points, especially having 'x' spots for non-resident players, and the team-based region seem quite interesting

On August 22 2013 17:14 ChosenSC2 wrote:
Anything that promotes actually having a NA scene, I'm all for it. As someone who has eat, breathe, sleep SC for like 6 years, it's hard to even care anymore. I don't want to tune in to WCS "America" to watch 32 Koreans go at it.... wtf?

Or go to MLG in America to see 85 Koreans get the top 75 spots. I would actually love to watch MLG if the final 4 was like Sheth, ViBE, HuK, SeleCt way more than watching Korean mercenaries who just fly in for 2 days to win money. They have GSL, and if an American wants to play in GSL they can't just fly there for 2 days and win $25,0000....

The best example I can think of is like in Canada, they have a Canadian Football League. It is very possible for a player, coach, manager, employee, organization etc to make a sustainable and comfortable income being a part of it. If in the Canadian Football League every season they just had the Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots and Pittsburgh Steelers come SHIT on everyone and take any money associated with the league do you think it would survive as a League?

TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means.

On September 04 2013 13:04 Taipoka wrote:


I would say that i disagree at all. :D
But i´ll just put a pint as you asked for a tweak.
You failed to consider one thing about SC2, and that is what i allways said KeSPA did right and GOM did wrong.
SC2 tounaments are focused on players, like you want (Like tennis), but you don´t have a structure like tennis.

Why?

Because on tennis, the players are the team. A player win money from prizes, sponsors, comercials, etc, and
the player pay a salary for his coach, nutricionist, medic, etc.
On SC2, a player win money from tournament, but he is part of a team with coach etc. And this team must
find sponsors to pay for the house, coaches, food, and maybe a salary.

Saw what is wrong?
Where is the exposure to the sponsors?????????????
Because you see Liquid Taeja winning championships... not <put sponsor name> Liquid Taeja, but
the sponsor is paying for all the liquid team, not only Taeja.

I think there are 3 alternatives to SC2:
1) Be like tennis. ie, close the teams and play like ATP circuit with the players paying for coach, house, etc.
2) Be like KeSPA and focus on teams, ie, focus on sponsors.
3) Be like the only one entity who made this SC2 scene right (I dont like em, but i must recognise they are good on this).
Do like EG. Don´t focus on be the best and win champioships. Focus on be a enterntainer.
This gives your sponsors the visibility needed. But. Are there space for that much entertainers? Let put 200~400 only
on korea?

On September 04 2013 16:39 psychotics wrote:


thinking like this is why na scene is so stagnant. we need to get better in na not exlcude koreans

On September 04 2013 13:09 vthree wrote:


Although I agree with the many of these points. I just want to point out the issue with points scaling (more points for non-WCS events). Unlike tennis where most of the top 50 pros can attend most of the tournaments. This is not the case for non-WCS events like MLG, Dreamhack, etc. Sure, some tournaments have qualifiers. But it still doesn't take away the fact that the EG, TL, players (and HyuN) just gets a lot more opportunity to attend foreign events.

On September 04 2013 23:52 dangthatsright wrote:


Getting shut down in a few quick matches does not constitute getting practice against the highest level of competition. Cross server ladder play should be more appropriate for that (albeit with some additional lag).

As long as both local and global options exist (is this such a hard concept?), there is more motivation for na players to actually play. The local options would have to exist outside WCS though, at least with the current format.

On September 04 2013 23:56 Sherlock117 wrote:


Another great point. However, at the moment all outside tournaments are essentially irrelevant. Do you think the ranking system should only include WCS results because not every pro makes it to all tournaments?

Even in pro tennis the normal ATP 250 and 500 events only have something like 10 of the top 50 players playing, and that's ok. A 500 level event is still worth 1/4 of a grand slam. In WCS winning a Tier I non-WCS tournament is 750 points while winning a regional + season finals is on the order of 4000 points. Don't you think it would be a good idea to make the most important non-WCS tournaments, like IEM, worth a little bit more in the points system?

Maybe 1000 points for IEM and then 2000 points for season finals and 1500 points for regionals would be a bit better.

Also, my biggest issue with points scaling is the difference between finishing 4th/5th and finishing 6th in a season. This is a very strange gap in the points structure that needs to be addressed. It is basically awarding points twice (what I called double-dipping) for a single performance (winning the 5th/6th place game) and doesn't make sense competitively. It should be an easy fix for next year.

Another thing I would like to see down the road is the ranking system be used as part of the qualification process for tournaments, like tennis. I think it works extremely well. In order to do this, the ranking system needs to include more tournaments at the lower end of the points scale.

On September 05 2013 01:07 vthree wrote:


1000 for IEM and 1500 for Regional would pretty much take up all the hype from regionals. Why fight for 1500 points through 2-3 months when you can pick up 1000 via a weekend event?

And those events aren't irrelevant at all, Naniwa/MC wouldn't be in Top 16 without non WCS events. Revival would be right on the edge. HerO and JD would not be 'safe' like they are now. That is 5/16 players being affected a lot by non-WCS events.

And you mentioned that regionals+season finals is 4000 points. But that is basically 2 tournaments, It is like winning a Masters event AND a Grand Slam. And your comparison for ATP 500 events remains similar in scale.

Global = 2x Regional = 4x Tier 1
Grand Slam = 2x Masters 1000 = 4x ATP 500