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On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:
Riot runs everything from top to bottom, including employ all the players. It is a totally unproven system that could end the instant Riot starts doing poorly or can't afford it any more. It is a system that works well now, but provides the scene nothing to fall back on if Riot stops doing LCS.
Believe it or not, Riot's LCS is more sustainable than Blizzard's WCS because:
- SC2 is a paid to play game, so there will come a time Blizzard run out of money to run WCS, and if Blizzard wants to continue to run WCS, they will have to use money from WoW or D3 to run SC2, which is incredibly not healthy.
- LoL can provide a consistent income for Riot, so you can easily scale the tournament's prize and structure to fit your income. If LoL is getting bigger and bigger -> more income -> LCS will have bigger prize, and vice versa, if the game is getting smaller -> prize pool will also get smaller, but it's still a sustainable tournament. Take Heroes of Newerth for example, it basically runs the same as LoL, but the concurrent player number is only 100k, which is way way smaller, and yet they still have big, global tournaments and stuff. Their global tournaments are not as big as LoL or Dota2, but they still attracts a lot of teams and players, and believe it or not, it's getting bigger although very slow.
And you're kind of wrong about LoL tournaments. Although Riot runs LCS, there're a bunch of other tournaments that are run by various organizations. What Riot does is that they pay LCS's players so that LCS teams don't compete in smaller tournaments. Teams like LGD, Vici, mouz, Copenhagen Wolf, Complexity, FXO,.... are not in LCS, and they are still playing in other tournaments that are paid by organizations and sponsors, such as Assembly, Dreamhack, Steelseries APD,..v.v. If you look at LCS and claim the state of LoL, you're severely misjudged. Non-LCS tournaments are where you can find the massive amount of amateur teams and inspiring LCS teams which is the core of the scene. There're tournaments that prize pool only $1000, $3000 but you have 64, 128 amateur teams registered and played. You can't even find 32 teams to play a $5000 tournament in Dota2, or 128 players to play $5000 tournament in SC2, let alone 5-man team.
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On August 23 2013 03:13 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:
Riot runs everything from top to bottom, including employ all the players. It is a totally unproven system that could end the instant Riot starts doing poorly or can't afford it any more. It is a system that works well now, but provides the scene nothing to fall back on if Riot stops doing LCS. Believe it or not, Riot's LCS is more sustainable than Blizzard's WCS because: - SC2 is a paid to play game, so there will come a time Blizzard run out of money to run WCS, and if Blizzard wants to continue to run WCS, they will have to use money from WoW or D3 to run SC2, which is incredibly not healthy. - LoL can provide a consistent income for Riot, so you can easily scale the tournament's prize and structure to fit your income. If LoL is getting bigger and bigger -> more income -> LCS will have bigger prize, and vice versa, if the game is getting smaller -> prize pool will also get smaller, but it's still a sustainable tournament. Take Heroes of Newerth for example, it basically runs the same as LoL, but the concurrent player number is only 100k, which is way way smaller, and yet they still have big, global tournaments and stuff. Their global tournaments are not as big as LoL or Dota2, but they still attracts a lot of teams and players, and believe it or not, it's getting bigger although very slow. And you're kind of wrong about LoL tournaments. Although Riot runs LCS, there're a bunch of other tournaments that are run by various organizations. What Riot does is that they pay LCS's players so that LCS teams don't compete in smaller tournaments. Teams like LGD, Vici, mouz, Copenhagen Wolf, Complexity, FXO,.... are not in LCS, and they are still playing in other tournaments that are paid by organizations and sponsors, such as Assembly, Dreamhack, Steelseries APD,..v.v. If you look at LCS and claim the state of LoL, you're severely misjudged. Non-LCS tournaments are where you can find the massive amount of amateur teams and inspiring LCS teams which is the core of the scene. There're tournaments that prize pool only $1000, $3000 but you have 64, 128 amateur teams registered and played. You can't even find 32 teams to play a $5000 tournament in Dota2, or 128 players to play $5000 tournament in SC2, let alone 5-man team.
over 600 teams registered for eizo cup for dota2. Stop slurping on riot and LoL with misinformation about other games.
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On August 23 2013 03:39 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 03:13 canikizu wrote:On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:
Riot runs everything from top to bottom, including employ all the players. It is a totally unproven system that could end the instant Riot starts doing poorly or can't afford it any more. It is a system that works well now, but provides the scene nothing to fall back on if Riot stops doing LCS. Believe it or not, Riot's LCS is more sustainable than Blizzard's WCS because: - SC2 is a paid to play game, so there will come a time Blizzard run out of money to run WCS, and if Blizzard wants to continue to run WCS, they will have to use money from WoW or D3 to run SC2, which is incredibly not healthy. - LoL can provide a consistent income for Riot, so you can easily scale the tournament's prize and structure to fit your income. If LoL is getting bigger and bigger -> more income -> LCS will have bigger prize, and vice versa, if the game is getting smaller -> prize pool will also get smaller, but it's still a sustainable tournament. Take Heroes of Newerth for example, it basically runs the same as LoL, but the concurrent player number is only 100k, which is way way smaller, and yet they still have big, global tournaments and stuff. Their global tournaments are not as big as LoL or Dota2, but they still attracts a lot of teams and players, and believe it or not, it's getting bigger although very slow. And you're kind of wrong about LoL tournaments. Although Riot runs LCS, there're a bunch of other tournaments that are run by various organizations. What Riot does is that they pay LCS's players so that LCS teams don't compete in smaller tournaments. Teams like LGD, Vici, mouz, Copenhagen Wolf, Complexity, FXO,.... are not in LCS, and they are still playing in other tournaments that are paid by organizations and sponsors, such as Assembly, Dreamhack, Steelseries APD,..v.v. If you look at LCS and claim the state of LoL, you're severely misjudged. Non-LCS tournaments are where you can find the massive amount of amateur teams and inspiring LCS teams which is the core of the scene. There're tournaments that prize pool only $1000, $3000 but you have 64, 128 amateur teams registered and played. You can't even find 32 teams to play a $5000 tournament in Dota2, or 128 players to play $5000 tournament in SC2, let alone 5-man team. over 600 teams registered for eizo cup for dota2. Stop slurping on riot and LoL with misinformation about other games.
Yeah sorry I missed Eizocup, but the points still stand. I don't care about how good a game is, I like the business side of esports, and from what I see LoL is sustainable, at least better than SC2 right now.
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On August 23 2013 03:10 StarStruck wrote:
Another one of these threads? How many times we have to go through this? You even posted in the other threads. How about having just one thread when it comes to the format and be done with it? You know why your comments get lost? It's because people don't read and heck I've said the same thing well over one hundred times already myself and when you create new threads like this all it does is add to the pile. With that said, people have lost sight of what the prelims really stand for. We have half a dozen organizations that host big LAN tournaments. The question is will this scene ever have the money to send every top tier pro to every OPEN event? We would have to follow the Western model, which would run very similar to a PGA/APT Tour. Each organization already hosts around 4 events a year. Think about it. You could have a Major Open Tournament practically every other week (each organization would act as host depending on region and location). The real problem is the expenses for the players/teams. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing because this would be a good way to weed out a lot of the shabby teams and in return we get a higher barrier to entry for having a legitimate team. Preferably (here I go repeating myself again) I much rather have a World Tour Circuit where fans get to meet all the best players and we would be increasing the competitive level with all of them facing one another on a more regular basis. It's good for the fans; it's good for marketing the players; and, you create a legitimate measuring stick and system for the players. We can have a Major League and a Minor League this way. I know maybe 3-4 people will read this post just like my other several hundred posts with regards to it and I know we're a long way away from anything that resembles this sort of system. Maybe something like this will happen several years from now because the money just isn't really there yet when it comes to getting the VISAs, flights, accommodations, food, etc. for the players.
I created this post because my comments in that thread were on the 13th page. Not many people read all the comments on a given post generally its only the first few pages. So this creates an opportunity for people to consider putting forth constructive ideas that might inspire blizzard and the community.
On a side note for those of you who do not know. There are some team leagues available for players in semi professional teams with growing prize pools but they are very limited for resources. Initially about a year ago team leagues were running for around $100-$300 tops for a team winning first. I recall an event the SC2Clan's team league that went on for $100 + a cheap website for 1st place with no second place prize. We have have better prize pools available but we have fewer teams at the higher level of the semi pro scene due to the financial climate we live in.
Some events now including the URTL and ISTL have events with $500-$600 team leagues but this is a prize pool that is split up over anywhere from 4-10 players on a team; So the funds are very diluted. Yes there are some individual events but most of them are dying out due to the fact you need star power to sell a tournament and there is becoming increasing less high skilled na players available to compete that aren't on premier teams. (Premier team players generally get salary so it only helps the recognized tier na players.)
Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. We have really made some strides with some of the ideas put forth. I hope more people contribute and keep this discussion going. This is not just a regular discuss on region locking this is a discussion meant for creating positive and constructive ideas. I feel we are making some ground on this and I hope people don't just think this is just another region locking article because its meant to be more.
Thanks for joining the conversation everyone!
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"Player lose the chance to practice vs top level talent from around the world. Slowing growth."
Isn't a con at all. Take your average US player say he is in a group with 3 koreans. He plays maybe 2 BO3 series against koreans and loses and gets knocked out of primier league. This isn't practicing. Teamates and ladder play is how they practice, and top players are going to hit each other and even lesser players will hit each other. For example Desrow will often hit random koreans during his streaming session. Scarlett played taeja a few times this morning while Taeja was streaming.
A region lock that says: If you live in the US you play in the US WCS if you can't qualify you aren't meant to be here go to the qualify league. That way you have a farm system to build on.
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This is a discussion we've had a lot of times before, imo. I don't get why people think it should be easy or even attainable to live off of pro-gaming if you're not very good. No other sports let you practice full-time without being on a pro-team (or having sponsors/own funds).. Do what everyone else is doing and get a job on the side. If that doesn't work, then tough luck.. It's not like its easier for anyone else. You don't hear about the thousands of korean gamers that put their eggs in SC2 and never made it. If anything its easier outside of korea since the level is lower.
It is a glass half-empty kind of thing, and it I don't have a solution for getting foreigners up to par. But its not OK to lock the regions and lower the bar inside. Players should be able to play where they want, and if you keep getting crushed or can't find a way to practice hard enough then maybe SC2 isn't for you.
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On August 23 2013 06:57 shabby wrote:
This is a discussion we've had a lot of times before, imo. I don't get why people think it should be easy or even attainable to live off of pro-gaming if you're not very good. No other sports let you practice full-time without being on a pro-team (or having sponsors/own funds).. Do what everyone else is doing and get a job on the side. If that doesn't work, then tough luck.. It's not like its easier for anyone else. You don't hear about the thousands of korean gamers that put their eggs in SC2 and never made it. If anything its easier outside of korea since the level is lower.
It is a glass half-empty kind of thing, and it I don't have a solution for getting foreigners up to par. But its not OK to lock the regions and lower the bar inside. Players should be able to play where they want, and if you keep getting crushed or can't find a way to practice hard enough then maybe SC2 isn't for you.
It's not supposed to be easy, but there needs to be an incentive for lesser players to play. The Koreans had a lucky start with their eSports scene. Local PC bangs holding BW tournaments for money and fame made every korean teen want to take it seriously. Look at them now: a fully established eSports industry. Why shouldn't NA do it as well? Why can't we start out by giving our NA players their own tournaments to work hard for, be motivated to play, and build their skills? Why do people assume NA have everything they need to be as good as Koreans? There's not many opportunities in NA to start playing competitively. Simple as that.
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Here are my thoughts on it; I also posted in the TL thread of course. First I am just going to focus on the US scene with this. The idea that foreign players will get better because they are playing versus Koreans in the WCS Premier league is really stupid. My point is that in the RO32 a foreign player may play two Best of 3 matches against a Korean, after that, they may not play someone at that level again because they are going to practice on the NA server, which is weaker. The Koreans are going to practice on Korea that is the best place to play. The Koreans live in Korea, they aren’t going to move into the scene they are just playing here because they couldn’t make Premier league in Korea. Playing a couple best of 3s versus someone won’t make you better. You need to be exposed to that level of play every day you practice to play at the level. I think a region lock that restricts the place you compete to the place you are a resident of would be a good thing. Right now after a few more seasons WCS NA primer league will be 98% Korean. If you say, you can only compete in the region you reside in, that restricts it and helps the NA scene grow. We don’t want young NA pro gamers thinking “it isn’t worth my time to even compete because a Korean will just win so why bother?” We want them to have a place to grow and develop, a place that they can win prize money and EG can than sign them to a nice contract they can live off of. I want to say I am not anti-Korean at all. All I am saying is if you want to play WCS NA, live here, play on the NA ladder, improve the skill level of the ladder and grow the scene. Right now the playing field just isn’t fair. I have some other complaints about WCS, as a viewer…but maybe for later lol.
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Maybe instead of a full region lock, just limit the slots available to people outside the region? So, 8 slots of RO32 premiere for WCS AM will be available for players that live outside of that region or something like that.
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On August 23 2013 09:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maybe instead of a full region lock, just limit the slots available to people outside the region? So, 8 slots of RO32 premiere for WCS AM will be available for players that live outside of that region or something like that.
That could work out actually. but how do you decide who gets in?
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On August 23 2013 10:02 HeeroFX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 09:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maybe instead of a full region lock, just limit the slots available to people outside the region? So, 8 slots of RO32 premiere for WCS AM will be available for players that live outside of that region or something like that. That could work out actually. but how do you decide who gets in?
Dunno, hadn't thought that far ahead to be honest. I like the idea of region locking, but I also like the idea of stuff like MLB/NFL where top talent from other countries can come in and play. It's just a dicey issue all around imo.
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On August 23 2013 10:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 10:02 HeeroFX wrote:On August 23 2013 09:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maybe instead of a full region lock, just limit the slots available to people outside the region? So, 8 slots of RO32 premiere for WCS AM will be available for players that live outside of that region or something like that. That could work out actually. but how do you decide who gets in? Dunno, hadn't thought that far ahead to be honest. I like the idea of region locking, but I also like the idea of stuff like MLB/NFL where top talent from other countries can come in and play. It's just a dicey issue all around imo.
Posted something similar on previous page, except a bit opposite of yours by making 4-8 spots region locked and the rest open to anyone like the current system. My suggestion was to have an open bracket that was region locked that any masters or gm players could compete in. Top 4 finishers get placed into the regional premier league and if they get knocked out move into the challenger league just like any other player would. At that point they can fight through the challenger league + compete in the next seasons open bracket. This would essentially allow for 2 chances for region locked players to get spots to stay in the premier region, while still keeping an "open" system for a majority of the spots.
I don't think the entire region should be locked, however I don't think it would hurt to have 4-8 spots that were for each regions premier league. At the least it creates interest to see how those players do, maybe an up and comer has a great run through the open bracket and now all the sudden everyone wants to see if they can compete when thrown into the fire. Those types of stories and chances will be what motivates foreigners. I know it is easy for everyone to say "hey if you want it that bad quit everything and go for it!" And I do agree to some degree, but you need that realistic carrot as well. It is much more attainable to think you can get work hard and qualify in an open bracket that is region locked than thinking how you are going to qualify against 32 Koreans.
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On August 23 2013 10:55 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 10:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On August 23 2013 10:02 HeeroFX wrote:On August 23 2013 09:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maybe instead of a full region lock, just limit the slots available to people outside the region? So, 8 slots of RO32 premiere for WCS AM will be available for players that live outside of that region or something like that. That could work out actually. but how do you decide who gets in? Dunno, hadn't thought that far ahead to be honest. I like the idea of region locking, but I also like the idea of stuff like MLB/NFL where top talent from other countries can come in and play. It's just a dicey issue all around imo. Posted something similar on previous page, except a bit opposite of yours by making 4-8 spots region locked and the rest open to anyone like the current system. My suggestion was to have an open bracket that was region locked that any masters or gm players could compete in. Top 4 finishers get placed into the regional premier league and if they get knocked out move into the challenger league just like any other player would. At that point they can fight through the challenger league + compete in the next seasons open bracket. This would essentially allow for 2 chances for region locked players to get spots to stay in the premier region, while still keeping an "open" system for a majority of the spots. I don't think the entire region should be locked, however I don't think it would hurt to have 4-8 spots that were for each regions premier league. At the least it creates interest to see how those players do, maybe an up and comer has a great run through the open bracket and now all the sudden everyone wants to see if they can compete when thrown into the fire. Those types of stories and chances will be what motivates foreigners. I know it is easy for everyone to say "hey if you want it that bad quit everything and go for it!" And I do agree to some degree, but you need that realistic carrot as well. It is much more attainable to think you can get work hard and qualify in an open bracket that is region locked than thinking how you are going to qualify against 32 Koreans.
Yeah, which is why I think the limited slots should be for outsiders. Would you rather play against 8 Koreans or 24 Koreans? Neither solution seems perfect, though. It ultimately comes down to interest in each region's scene.
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On August 23 2013 11:01 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 10:55 FLuE wrote:On August 23 2013 10:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On August 23 2013 10:02 HeeroFX wrote:On August 23 2013 09:41 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Maybe instead of a full region lock, just limit the slots available to people outside the region? So, 8 slots of RO32 premiere for WCS AM will be available for players that live outside of that region or something like that. That could work out actually. but how do you decide who gets in? Dunno, hadn't thought that far ahead to be honest. I like the idea of region locking, but I also like the idea of stuff like MLB/NFL where top talent from other countries can come in and play. It's just a dicey issue all around imo. Posted something similar on previous page, except a bit opposite of yours by making 4-8 spots region locked and the rest open to anyone like the current system. My suggestion was to have an open bracket that was region locked that any masters or gm players could compete in. Top 4 finishers get placed into the regional premier league and if they get knocked out move into the challenger league just like any other player would. At that point they can fight through the challenger league + compete in the next seasons open bracket. This would essentially allow for 2 chances for region locked players to get spots to stay in the premier region, while still keeping an "open" system for a majority of the spots. I don't think the entire region should be locked, however I don't think it would hurt to have 4-8 spots that were for each regions premier league. At the least it creates interest to see how those players do, maybe an up and comer has a great run through the open bracket and now all the sudden everyone wants to see if they can compete when thrown into the fire. Those types of stories and chances will be what motivates foreigners. I know it is easy for everyone to say "hey if you want it that bad quit everything and go for it!" And I do agree to some degree, but you need that realistic carrot as well. It is much more attainable to think you can get work hard and qualify in an open bracket that is region locked than thinking how you are going to qualify against 32 Koreans. Yeah, which is why I think the limited slots should be for outsiders. Would you rather play against 8 Koreans or 24 Koreans? Neither solution seems perfect, though. It ultimately comes down to interest in each region's scene.
Once you are in the premier bracket you need to beat Koreans anyway, so I don't think it is about the number of spots in the premier bracket. If only 8 move on and their are 8+ Koreans they will probably move on anyway. It is more about giving SOME spots to region lock. If 16 is a better number than fine, I just think that ends up being to many. 4-8 is plenty of "guaranteed" spots for players in the region. The other 24 spots could be taken by people from that region or the outside, at that point earn it. But by giving a small handful to the region you foster hope and story lines, and those are two things that the WCS is sorely missing right now for non-Koreans.
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theking1 are you watching WCS atm? Considering that Taeja is merely a b-teamer i think we did pretty well against Innovation, the so called best player in the world.
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wcs looks balanced, unbalance begins if it comes to grand finals.
however i dont like wcs 
edit: ofcouse with region locked
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Wow, all the Koreans 'running away' to NA/EU are killing the KR Koreans right now...
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I can't believe the people in this thread telling western players to "suck it up" and just "try harder" without region-locks . As if western players aren't sacrificing already and dedicating their lives to the game as much as they realistically can. It isn't a matter of will power that's hurting the western scene, it's infrastructure.
Every player is a product of their local scene and is improved by the collective skill level of their local scene . Without the proper infrastructure this limits the amount of players who can dedicate themselves to practicing. Without proper infrastructure it's harder to to find a good practice environment which limits skill collectively
Korean's aren't magically better, they have years of e-sports infrastructure development behind them and so you can't expect western players to magically beat them with sheer will power without their own proper infrastructure behind them.
Now not only are western players behind in infrastructure but they have to compete for the exposure and prize money from players developed in a scene that already has established infrastructure.
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How many aspiring professional SC2 players from NA have retired from SC2 in order to play LoL or DotA2? I can really only think of Destiny, but he's more of an outlier in that he is more of an entertainer than a competitor.
If SC2 players from NA feel that they don't have a shot at making a living with SC2 and turn to things outside of eSports, then no format change to WCS NA can overcome that, because it's a more general problem with eSports in NA.
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On August 24 2013 05:07 mvdunecats wrote:
If SC2 players from NA feel that they don't have a shot at making a living with SC2 and turn to things outside of eSports, then no format change to WCS NA can overcome that, because it's a more general problem with eSports in NA.
I completely disagree with this. WCS NA is a huge influence on the NA tournament scene and so it is a deciding factor on whether NA players will find success and possibly make a living with SC2.
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EPT
