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On August 23 2013 00:52 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 00:44 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:32 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help. Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste. It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics... So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs. And people still think they are not lazy? You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing. riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same? That is not a valid argument... what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow. @mcratyn and blizz only does wcs. TIL riot is competitor to Blizzard (yeah, ofc, they have their own MMORPG, RPG and RTS title that are all parts of franchise with good 10+ year old history). TIL i learned that only developers should develop the scene and not the scene. TIL blizzard only does wcs and only develops SC2 and ofc TIL that blizzard has constant source of income from SC2 and is entirely dependant on it. .....yeah man in the esports scene they are competitors like it or not. I never said only developers develop the proscene-you pulled that out your ass yeas you are right.blizzard only organizes wcs-can you point to me other tournaments directly organized by blizzard? i never said anything about only developing sc2 or about its source of income-again pulling stuff out your ass. Now i understand the joke about Romanians. First of all, name me a game, currently developed by Riot, that is not LoL. Second, name me source of income for Riot (and we all know what is it). Third, Blizzard only organizes wcs.... True that. If you forget about blizzcon's existence and bear in mind, that wcs is blizzcon's qualifier. And last, why would you put riot as example, when this is developer that tries to develop the scene, because the scene refuses to do it itself it seems (except for Korea, but it is Korea and LoL is popular there... what else needs to be done). And last, Blizzard and Riot are indirect competitors via their games and last time i checked Blizzard almost never involved themselves in the scene, except for Blizzcon's invitationals, so they do not even compete with Riot.
you are totally off topic and racist at the same time.But it is not wonder.The discussion I had with the other users was specifically about the proscene since this topic is only about the proscene.And blizzcon is not a tournament.You you are referring to the early gsls those were gsl not blizzcon.Eccept for some beta stuff blizzard did not have any tournaments.This has got to be the most topic,incoherent,illogical post I have ever red on this website.And it comes from a racist russian.The things you say about riot,blizzard etc have nothing to do with what I have discussed with the other users or about the topic of this thread.Please take your racist romanian jokes elsewhere.But hey racism is okay as long as it is directed against people from easterm europe no one cares about.If it were jokes about jews or blacks it would have been an instaban but jokes about romanians are okay.Who cares about the 50 years of communism behind th eiron curtain the soviets brought or about the 200k romanians dead in political gulags because moscow wanted so.Bleah racist russian,Never speak to me again.
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The NA scene is struggling and it seems like we always say it needs more $$ so that people can afford to put in more training time but I don't think that's feasible. The audience doesn't generate enough revenue to support that does it I think starcarft is great, love to watch it, love to play it. I'd like to invest some money in it but I want to INVEST the money not just spend it. In my limited experience there just is a significant gap in what revenues a tournament can generate (online tournament specifically) and what the top NA players want the prize pool to be.
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Just give players native to the region x number of premier league seeds through a separate qualifier, while allowing koreans (and players native to the region who want a second chance to qualify) to have a qualifier for the remaining spots. Not only would it guarantee NA/EU players get more exposure, it would also make getting into NA/EU premier harder for koreans, thus discouraging playing outside of your region. It would also make the level of play in premier league higher without completely killing the local scene.
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On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:Show nested quote +[
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer.
Looks like an endless cycle of never having any NA pros to me, then. To expect someone to take months or years of their lives doing nothing but starcraft without a shot at earning is beyond unreasonable. There is no other sport that provides 0 chance for some form of compensation or reason to compete (financial or otherwise) to everyone, at least not in the USA. Starcraft doesn't have full paid scholarship opportunities or sanctioned school teams. It doesn't have amateur or semi-pro leagues with paid salaries.
In order to be as good as a Korean player and still move forward with your life you essentially have to spend your 8 or so hours in school and another 8 or so hours every day working on your hobby. NA pros don't have the same team structure that they have in KR, where they can prove they're good and be a practice opponent at the least, with room and board provided simply by showing talent. They might not be moving forward with their lives but they're sure as shit not killing themselves incurring debt or working a second job essentially to survive.
I simply don't understand this logic. In every single one of these threads there are always people saying "well they suck, they shouldn't play". I do not for the life of me understand that mentality, where we expect players to take risks. Pro players don't even make that much money is what is so mind boggling to me. Why do we require something with such a high probability of failure for so little chance at reward and think of that as acceptable? I could understand it if there was something like, I dunno, large portions of college paid for, or even small weekly tournaments to allow these semi pro players to earn some form of living, but there simply isn't that. This mentality is doing nothing but crushing the chances of the NA scene to grow because "we want to see the best games". I just cannot wrap my head around this.
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On August 23 2013 01:06 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:[
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer. Looks like an endless cycle of never having any NA pros to me, then. To expect someone to take months or years of their lives doing nothing but starcraft without a shot at earning is beyond unreasonable. There is no other sport that provides 0 chance for some form of compensation or reason to compete (financial or otherwise) to everyone, at least not in the USA. Starcraft doesn't have full paid scholarship opportunities or sanctioned school teams. It doesn't have amateur or semi-pro leagues with paid salaries. In order to be as good as a Korean player and still move forward with your life you essentially have to spend your 8 or so hours in school and another 8 or so hours every day working on your hobby. NA pros don't have the same team structure that they have in KR, where they can prove they're good and be a practice opponent at the least, with room and board provided simply by showing talent. They might not be moving forward with their lives but they're sure as shit not killing themselves incurring debt or working a second job essentially to survive. I simply don't understand this logic. In every single one of these threads there are always people saying "well they suck, they shouldn't play". I do not for the life of me understand that mentality, where we expect players to take risks. Pro players don't even make that much money is what is so mind boggling to me. Why do we require something with such a high probability of failure for so little chance at reward and think of that as acceptable? I could understand it if there was something like, I dunno, large portions of college paid for, or even small weekly tournaments to allow these semi pro players to earn some form of living, but there simply isn't that. This mentality is doing nothing but crushing the chances of the NA scene to grow because "we want to see the best games". I just cannot wrap my head around this.
Not sure if that's still the case but in Korea if you're a practice partner you're the same as nothing. Many Koreans do just and only SC without any guarantees. No rooms and board.
For the question in the next paragraph I get your standpoint totally and then I look at Korean pros and, well, they do just that. Guess we need to ask them how.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 23 2013 01:01 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 00:52 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:44 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:32 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help. Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste. It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics... So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs. And people still think they are not lazy? You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing. riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same? That is not a valid argument... what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow. @mcratyn and blizz only does wcs. TIL riot is competitor to Blizzard (yeah, ofc, they have their own MMORPG, RPG and RTS title that are all parts of franchise with good 10+ year old history). TIL i learned that only developers should develop the scene and not the scene. TIL blizzard only does wcs and only develops SC2 and ofc TIL that blizzard has constant source of income from SC2 and is entirely dependant on it. .....yeah man in the esports scene they are competitors like it or not. I never said only developers develop the proscene-you pulled that out your ass yeas you are right.blizzard only organizes wcs-can you point to me other tournaments directly organized by blizzard? i never said anything about only developing sc2 or about its source of income-again pulling stuff out your ass. Now i understand the joke about Romanians. First of all, name me a game, currently developed by Riot, that is not LoL. Second, name me source of income for Riot (and we all know what is it). Third, Blizzard only organizes wcs.... True that. If you forget about blizzcon's existence and bear in mind, that wcs is blizzcon's qualifier. And last, why would you put riot as example, when this is developer that tries to develop the scene, because the scene refuses to do it itself it seems (except for Korea, but it is Korea and LoL is popular there... what else needs to be done). And last, Blizzard and Riot are indirect competitors via their games and last time i checked Blizzard almost never involved themselves in the scene, except for Blizzcon's invitationals, so they do not even compete with Riot. you are totally off topic and racist at the same time.But it is not wonder.The discussion I had with the other users was specifically about the proscene since this topic is only about the proscene.And blizzcon is not a tournament.You you are referring to the early gsls those were gsl not blizzcon.Eccept for some beta stuff blizzard did not have any tournaments.This has got to be the most topic,incoherent,illogical post I have ever red on this website.And it comes from a racist russian.The things you say about riot,blizzard etc have nothing to do with what I have discussed with the other users or about the topic of this thread.Please take your racist romanian jokes elsewhere.But hey racism is okay as long as it is directed against people from easterm europe no one cares about.If it were jokes about jews or blacks it would have been an instaban but jokes about romanians are okay.Who cares about the 50 years of communism behind th eiron curtain the soviets brought or about the 200k romanians dead in political gulags because moscow wanted so.Bleah racist russian,Never speak to me again.
Every single blizzcon starting 2010 had an SC2 invitational won by Genius (2010) and Mvp (2011) if you say that blizzcon is not a tournament i am with you. if you mean that blizzcon never had an sc2 tournament, you are wrong. Next, i claim that steps riot's doing is directly related with their source of income and they are the reason they do 'em. Since for blizzard WCS is not a real chance to suddenly explode the amount of copies sold (i believe so, would be not glad to be proven wrong) i have no clue why they are doing this at all. Hell, i dare to say, that banning all the hackers there are will give 'em more sold copies, than WCS S1 did.
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On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help. Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste. It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics... So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs. And people still think they are not lazy? You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing. riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same? That is not a valid argument... what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow. @mcratyn and blizz only does wcs.
Dude - Riot is by no means a small competitor to Blizzard's SC2 department. Yes, i say Blizzard's SC2 department because guess what? SC2 is not blizzards only game, and thus should not be their only concern. SC2 as a game does not generate a dime after it has been sold, where as LoL is a huge cash-cow with all the micro-transactions going on.
Also i think you should get your shit together. You have have not said anything wise in this thread at all.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 23 2013 01:06 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:[
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer. Looks like an endless cycle of never having any NA pros to me, then. To expect someone to take months or years of their lives doing nothing but starcraft without a shot at earning is beyond unreasonable. There is no other sport that provides 0 chance for some form of compensation or reason to compete (financial or otherwise) to everyone, at least not in the USA. Starcraft doesn't have full paid scholarship opportunities or sanctioned school teams. It doesn't have amateur or semi-pro leagues with paid salaries. In order to be as good as a Korean player and still move forward with your life you essentially have to spend your 8 or so hours in school and another 8 or so hours every day working on your hobby. NA pros don't have the same team structure that they have in KR, where they can prove they're good and be a practice opponent at the least, with room and board provided simply by showing talent. They might not be moving forward with their lives but they're sure as shit not killing themselves incurring debt or working a second job essentially to survive. I simply don't understand this logic. In every single one of these threads there are always people saying "well they suck, they shouldn't play". I do not for the life of me understand that mentality, where we expect players to take risks. Pro players don't even make that much money is what is so mind boggling to me. Why do we require something with such a high probability of failure for so little chance at reward and think of that as acceptable? I could understand it if there was something like, I dunno, large portions of college paid for, or even small weekly tournaments to allow these semi pro players to earn some form of living, but there simply isn't that. This mentality is doing nothing but crushing the chances of the NA scene to grow because "we want to see the best games". I just cannot wrap my head around this.
See, the endless cycle starts at point of reasonable refusal of NA (and well, most of ) pros to sacrifice everything for becoming SC2 pro. That's what koreans do in order to have a career at SC2. And all they have starting this point is some part-time job (at most), ability to live in team house (if they actually get picked up by team, and for that you must actually get some exposure, be it by beating someone in some qualifier or some other way). If NA scene actually gets something that will give it's players exposure (well, never mind, they already had it) and actually will have teams that shall dare to accept such a suicidal passionate player, who will only require place to live at and some meal to eat, while being a practice partner and what not, we may actually have a train's start. But never mind, since SC2 is not getting any big any time soon.
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On August 23 2013 01:17 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 01:06 Noobity wrote:On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:[
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer. Looks like an endless cycle of never having any NA pros to me, then. To expect someone to take months or years of their lives doing nothing but starcraft without a shot at earning is beyond unreasonable. There is no other sport that provides 0 chance for some form of compensation or reason to compete (financial or otherwise) to everyone, at least not in the USA. Starcraft doesn't have full paid scholarship opportunities or sanctioned school teams. It doesn't have amateur or semi-pro leagues with paid salaries. In order to be as good as a Korean player and still move forward with your life you essentially have to spend your 8 or so hours in school and another 8 or so hours every day working on your hobby. NA pros don't have the same team structure that they have in KR, where they can prove they're good and be a practice opponent at the least, with room and board provided simply by showing talent. They might not be moving forward with their lives but they're sure as shit not killing themselves incurring debt or working a second job essentially to survive. I simply don't understand this logic. In every single one of these threads there are always people saying "well they suck, they shouldn't play". I do not for the life of me understand that mentality, where we expect players to take risks. Pro players don't even make that much money is what is so mind boggling to me. Why do we require something with such a high probability of failure for so little chance at reward and think of that as acceptable? I could understand it if there was something like, I dunno, large portions of college paid for, or even small weekly tournaments to allow these semi pro players to earn some form of living, but there simply isn't that. This mentality is doing nothing but crushing the chances of the NA scene to grow because "we want to see the best games". I just cannot wrap my head around this. See, the endless cycle starts at point of reasonable refusal of NA (and well, most of ) pros to sacrifice everything for becoming SC2 pro. That's what koreans do in order to have a career at SC2. And all they have starting this point is some part-time job (at most), ability to leave in team house (if they actually get picked up by team, and for that you must actually get some exposure, be it by beating someone in some qualifier or some other way). If NA scene actually gets something that will give it's players exposure (well, never mind, they already had it) and actually will have teams that shall dare to accept such a suicidal passionate player, who will only require place to live at and some meal to eat, while being a practice partner and what not, we may actually have a train's start. But never mind, since SC2 is not getting any big any time soon.
To be fair to NA players, they do not have the same "path" that the Korean players have, since there is not Esports center like in Korea. A rising Korean amateur player can go to Seoul, try to make their name and get into a team house. An NA player does not have that step to go through and simply must practice on the NA ladder(or KR if that is possible for them depending on where they are in NA) and hope to do well in either the WCS qualifiers or some other open bracket event.
I agree that aspiring NA players can't expect to be paid salaries right off the bat. But they lack the ability to cut their teeth and get feed back on how they are playing. Playing once a season in the WCS won't do it. There needs to be some sort of middle ground where players can compete on a level that fits them. Even if it is $1,000 NA only cups that are online or and don't allow players already qualified for the WCS to compete.
On August 23 2013 01:13 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help. Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste. It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics... So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs. And people still think they are not lazy? You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing. riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same? That is not a valid argument... what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow. @mcratyn and blizz only does wcs. Dude - Riot is by no means a small competitor to Blizzard's SC2 department. Yes, i say Blizzard's SC2 department because guess what? SC2 is not blizzards only game, and thus should not be their only concern. SC2 as a game does not generate a dime after it has been sold, where as LoL is a huge cash-cow with all the micro-transactions going on. Also i think you should get your shit together. You have have not said anything wise in this thread at all.
Riot runs everything from top to bottom, including employ all the players. It is a totally unproven system that could end the instant Riot starts doing poorly or can't afford it any more. It is a system that works well now, but provides the scene nothing to fall back on if Riot stops doing LCS.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 01:17 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 23 2013 01:06 Noobity wrote:On August 22 2013 17:23 dream-_- wrote:[
TL:DR: Until NA players have a reason to be full-time, something to play for, the NA scene will slowly die. Right now there is no reason unless you make money from streaming or other means. If a NA player can compete with the Koreans they can play full time. If they can't they shouldn't be a pro regardless. Accepting mediocrity in the NA scene is not the answer. Looks like an endless cycle of never having any NA pros to me, then. To expect someone to take months or years of their lives doing nothing but starcraft without a shot at earning is beyond unreasonable. There is no other sport that provides 0 chance for some form of compensation or reason to compete (financial or otherwise) to everyone, at least not in the USA. Starcraft doesn't have full paid scholarship opportunities or sanctioned school teams. It doesn't have amateur or semi-pro leagues with paid salaries. In order to be as good as a Korean player and still move forward with your life you essentially have to spend your 8 or so hours in school and another 8 or so hours every day working on your hobby. NA pros don't have the same team structure that they have in KR, where they can prove they're good and be a practice opponent at the least, with room and board provided simply by showing talent. They might not be moving forward with their lives but they're sure as shit not killing themselves incurring debt or working a second job essentially to survive. I simply don't understand this logic. In every single one of these threads there are always people saying "well they suck, they shouldn't play". I do not for the life of me understand that mentality, where we expect players to take risks. Pro players don't even make that much money is what is so mind boggling to me. Why do we require something with such a high probability of failure for so little chance at reward and think of that as acceptable? I could understand it if there was something like, I dunno, large portions of college paid for, or even small weekly tournaments to allow these semi pro players to earn some form of living, but there simply isn't that. This mentality is doing nothing but crushing the chances of the NA scene to grow because "we want to see the best games". I just cannot wrap my head around this. See, the endless cycle starts at point of reasonable refusal of NA (and well, most of ) pros to sacrifice everything for becoming SC2 pro. That's what koreans do in order to have a career at SC2. And all they have starting this point is some part-time job (at most), ability to leave in team house (if they actually get picked up by team, and for that you must actually get some exposure, be it by beating someone in some qualifier or some other way). If NA scene actually gets something that will give it's players exposure (well, never mind, they already had it) and actually will have teams that shall dare to accept such a suicidal passionate player, who will only require place to live at and some meal to eat, while being a practice partner and what not, we may actually have a train's start. But never mind, since SC2 is not getting any big any time soon. To be fair to NA players, they do not have the same "path" that the Korean players have, since there is not Esports center like in Korea. A rising Korean amateur player can go to Seoul, try to make their name and get into a team house. An NA player does not have that step to go through and simply must practice on the NA ladder(or KR if that is possible for them depending on where they are in NA) and hope to do well in either the WCS qualifiers or some other open bracket event. I agree that aspiring NA players can't expect to be paid salaries right off the bat. But they lack the ability to cut their teeth and get feed back on how they are playing. Playing once a season in the WCS won't do it. There needs to be some sort of middle ground where players can compete on a level that fits them. Even if it is $1,000 NA only cups that are online or and don't allow players already qualified for the WCS to compete.
Phew, someone with common sense in the thread. I am all for some middle ground for rising players. Real question is: who shall be spending money on NA scene :3? I think Blizzard has made it clear, that they are going to organize 1 tournament a year (well, i shall call WCS as a whole 1 tournament. 1 BIIIIIIG tournament).
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On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help. Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste. It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics... So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs. And people still think they are not lazy? You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing. riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same? That is not a valid argument... what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow. @mcratyn and blizz only does wcs.
Well, Blizzard and Riot are really different business models. Box game sales vs micro transactions. Most Sc2 viewers likely already have SC2 and will not buy another copy just because Stephano won another tournament. For LoL, they see those MadLife Blitzcrank hooks and people go buy the champion to try it.
The pro scene to us viewers is like the the 'marketing' arm of Blizzard and Riot. With marketing, it is all about return on investment. The business models simply make the marketing budget be different for the pro scene.
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On August 23 2013 01:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 01:13 Prog455 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help. Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste. It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics... So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs. And people still think they are not lazy? You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing. riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same? That is not a valid argument... what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow. @mcratyn and blizz only does wcs. Dude - Riot is by no means a small competitor to Blizzard's SC2 department. Yes, i say Blizzard's SC2 department because guess what? SC2 is not blizzards only game, and thus should not be their only concern. SC2 as a game does not generate a dime after it has been sold, where as LoL is a huge cash-cow with all the micro-transactions going on. Also i think you should get your shit together. You have have not said anything wise in this thread at all. Riot runs everything from top to bottom, including employ all the players. It is a totally unproven system that could end the instant Riot starts doing poorly or can't afford it any more. It is a system that works well now, but provides the scene nothing to fall back on if Riot stops doing LCS.
I never said that Riots way of doing business is a healthy model, i merely pointed out that that Riot have opportunities that Blizzard simply doesn't have, because of the differences between SC2 and LoL. That being said i do agree with you regarding Riots business model and the fact that the LoL scene is much more dependent on money injections from Riot compared to SC2 and Blizzard.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
Hm, never knew that LoL scene is on essentially life-support from Riot. I hope at least it is healthy in Korea, huh?
To keep it on-topic: i mean, that if it is on life-support outside of Korea, you cannot expect Blizzard to inject money into NA scene hoping that at one point it will become living creature. After all, they have got bad example of this.
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On August 23 2013 00:27 theking1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 00:25 Assirra wrote:On August 23 2013 00:23 theking1 wrote:On August 23 2013 00:21 Assirra wrote:On August 22 2013 22:56 NapkinBox wrote:On August 22 2013 22:26 McRatyn wrote:
People talking about lack of local tourneys are certainly true but isn't it a totally seperate problem from the WCS and the so-called "korean invasion"? It's the problem with Americans (Europeans) themselves, with people not organizing those small things. It's not like Blizzard is gonna "go" to every city and organize local tournaments for people, come on! For an e-sports scene thare has to be common folk interest at least to some degree. It all starts at the bottom I belive, and if that bottom is void then no region lock will help. Which is why it shouldn't be local, but online instead. That's simple enough. Though, I don't know of any common folk who are willing to risk and spend money building a scene for amateurs and growing pros, and I don't expect anyone to, but MLG and Blizzard obviously has the resources to make it all possible. I just don't know if they're even interested in it at all. Sadly, there are also people out there who think any support to the NA scene would be undeserved and a waste. It's not a completely separate topic, but this is pretty much a response to why NA players aren't good enough to "fend off" the Koreans in a NA Qualifier. I'm also wishing WCS 2014 returns to being the Starcraft Olympics... So you want Blizzard and MLG to build up the scene from the ground up for you while the koreans worked years for theirs. And people still think they are not lazy? You want something? Do it yourself, don't rely on some big organization to do all the work for you just so you can have your thing. riot does everything and does not seem to have an issue with that.why can't blizzard do the same? That is not a valid argument... what?are you serious?of course it is a valid argument.If one of your smaller competitors can organize a good proscene 100% on its own money while you can not do that and expect the community to do everything of course it is an issue.How the hell is that not an argument.....wow. @mcratyn and blizz only does wcs.
You know that Riot needed to do that all because LoL was not even close an esport for a looong time right? Riot basically bought the whole LoL scene by doing all that stuff and the second they decide to not support it anymore it dies instantly.
Blizzard on the other hand let the scene develops itself and so far it always worked great (Brood War and Warcraft 3 as big examples) so why would do anything else?
It's only after the constant whining of people that they decided to get involved and if you ask me it has done more harm then good.
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On August 22 2013 23:58 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 16:35 FreedomSC2 wrote:
CON's to Region Lock:
Player lose the chance to practice vs top level talent from around the world. Slowing growth.
Aren't you forgetting that there is a global finals? Thus, the best players from EU and NA would get the chance to play the other best players in the world even if the regions are locked. Many Koreans do not practice on the EU and NA ladders, despite playing in WCS EU or AM. So I don't think they are losing a chance to practice. Surely, you don't mean that WCS itself gives practice, right? Because playing a couple of Bo3's and getting smashed is not practice, that is competition. In competition, you (should) do whatever gives you the best chance to win, while in practice, you refine and tweak the strategies you plan to do in competition by drilling them and trying to new things. Playing Koreans in WCS NA is not the place to refine and tweak the strategies. That whole line of thinking, that people need to play Koreans in regional WCS games or they won't get better is flawed. Stephano is a living example of how wrong it is, he practiced on the EU ladder, then went to smash a bunch Koreans at IPL.
Thanks for the question it is a great one. I didn't clearly write that out but what I meant was that we wouldn't have consistent practice on a month to month basis. As with a tight region lock setup we would only get practice vs Koreans in 1 event compared to where if we do a hybrid it could be weekly or even monthly. Young up and coming players really need the bar set for them to see what is required to become a true professional gamer. If NA ladder is all these youngsters have they won't be growing as fast as they would if they had the best competition.
Someone has already made a great statement in terms of Stephano and Scarlett earlier in the thread. About their growth being statistical insignificant compared to the vast majority of gamers who are struggling. If we stay in the current system yes we could see growth in the future but all the gamers out of school would be forced to retire and we would need to wait for the next generation of youngsters to come up and make use of that practice well attending school. Even then it would be tough to consistent earn cash.
Thank you for joining the conversation ;D
I love this comment too: This another interesting idea for sure:
On August 23 2013 00:42 FFW_Rude wrote:
What about region lock for teams ?
Exemple :
EG is a USA team and play in WCS America.
KT Rolster is a Korean team and play in WCS Korea
Millenium is a French team and play in WCS Europe.
You would have region lock based on teams. But Jaedong could still play WCS America because he is in a american team. If someone want to play in another region, they would have to join a foreign team. (I know that's not something you can do easily).
You would have teams that keep out koreans because they can't afford it but still have good players (i have none in mind) but could still exist (do mouz have koreans ?).
If for exemple StarTale wants to play WCS America. Well... They have to move the team in the country. (not really possible i know).
I don't really have thought that well on the subject. But maybe it's an idea you could discuss between people that know what they are talking about (unlike me :p).
I don't watch soccer, but i know that french teams have spanish, italian or even brasilian players. And i know a lot of teams in other country have as well.
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On August 23 2013 01:56 lolfail9001 wrote:
Hm, never knew that LoL scene is on essentially life-support from Riot. I hope at least it is healthy in Korea, huh?
To keep it on-topic: i mean, that if it is on life-support outside of Korea, you cannot expect Blizzard to inject money into NA scene hoping that at one point it will become living creature. After all, they have got bad example of this.
Korean LoL is healthy as KeSPA/OGN is doing everything there with the support that they gave Brood War before without really needing Riot much which is also why Riot isn't interfering in the Korean scene itself much, rest of the world however is completely depended on Riot's money, so if Riot ever stops being the complete financial backbone for the LoL scene, LoL will have a fast death in all but Korea as players in non-Koreans teams suddenly need to find a lot of sponsors or they lose any salary they have making it just like in SC2 insanely hard to get money for them.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On August 23 2013 02:32 FreedomSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 23:58 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 22 2013 16:35 FreedomSC2 wrote:
CON's to Region Lock:
Player lose the chance to practice vs top level talent from around the world. Slowing growth.
Aren't you forgetting that there is a global finals? Thus, the best players from EU and NA would get the chance to play the other best players in the world even if the regions are locked. Many Koreans do not practice on the EU and NA ladders, despite playing in WCS EU or AM. So I don't think they are losing a chance to practice. Surely, you don't mean that WCS itself gives practice, right? Because playing a couple of Bo3's and getting smashed is not practice, that is competition. In competition, you (should) do whatever gives you the best chance to win, while in practice, you refine and tweak the strategies you plan to do in competition by drilling them and trying to new things. Playing Koreans in WCS NA is not the place to refine and tweak the strategies. That whole line of thinking, that people need to play Koreans in regional WCS games or they won't get better is flawed. Stephano is a living example of how wrong it is, he practiced on the EU ladder, then went to smash a bunch Koreans at IPL. Thanks for the question it is a great one. I didn't clearly write that out but what I meant was that we wouldn't have consistent practice on a month to month basis. As with a tight region lock setup we would only get practice vs Koreans in 1 event compared to where if we do a hybrid it could be weekly or even monthly. Young up and coming players really need the bar set for them to see what is required to become a true professional gamer. If NA ladder is all these youngsters have they won't be growing as fast as they would if they had the best competition. Someone has already made a great statement in terms of Stephano and Scarlett earlier in the thread. About their growth being statistical insignificant compared to the vast majority of gamers who are struggling. If we stay in the current system yes we could see growth in the future but all the gamers out of school would be forced to retire and we would need to wait for the next generation of youngsters to come up and make use of that practice well attending school. Even then it would be tough to consistent earn cash. Thank you for joining the conversation ;D
I still have not seen explanation of what is regular season in your proposal. If you mean group stages then regional season finals are screwed up, because groups have koreans and your finals must somehow do not have 'em.
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On August 23 2013 02:36 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2013 02:32 FreedomSC2 wrote:On August 22 2013 23:58 BronzeKnee wrote:On August 22 2013 16:35 FreedomSC2 wrote:
CON's to Region Lock:
Player lose the chance to practice vs top level talent from around the world. Slowing growth.
Aren't you forgetting that there is a global finals? Thus, the best players from EU and NA would get the chance to play the other best players in the world even if the regions are locked. Many Koreans do not practice on the EU and NA ladders, despite playing in WCS EU or AM. So I don't think they are losing a chance to practice. Surely, you don't mean that WCS itself gives practice, right? Because playing a couple of Bo3's and getting smashed is not practice, that is competition. In competition, you (should) do whatever gives you the best chance to win, while in practice, you refine and tweak the strategies you plan to do in competition by drilling them and trying to new things. Playing Koreans in WCS NA is not the place to refine and tweak the strategies. That whole line of thinking, that people need to play Koreans in regional WCS games or they won't get better is flawed. Stephano is a living example of how wrong it is, he practiced on the EU ladder, then went to smash a bunch Koreans at IPL. Thanks for the question it is a great one. I didn't clearly write that out but what I meant was that we wouldn't have consistent practice on a month to month basis. As with a tight region lock setup we would only get practice vs Koreans in 1 event compared to where if we do a hybrid it could be weekly or even monthly. Young up and coming players really need the bar set for them to see what is required to become a true professional gamer. If NA ladder is all these youngsters have they won't be growing as fast as they would if they had the best competition. Someone has already made a great statement in terms of Stephano and Scarlett earlier in the thread. About their growth being statistical insignificant compared to the vast majority of gamers who are struggling. If we stay in the current system yes we could see growth in the future but all the gamers out of school would be forced to retire and we would need to wait for the next generation of youngsters to come up and make use of that practice well attending school. Even then it would be tough to consistent earn cash. Thank you for joining the conversation ;D I still have not seen explanation of what is regular season in your proposal. If you mean group stages then regional season finals are screwed up, because groups have koreans and your finals must somehow do not have 'em.
I am just here trying to create a conversation. I am not the person with all the answers and I know there are a lot smarter people in this community then myself. I just want to be involved in meditating a discussion to see if we can come up with a solution. We have had several interesting ideas that I think could be alternatives but its up to us as a community to look at our options and try to make our case to blizzard. Everyones comments are hopefully going to be read by blizzard to give them new ideas.
My thought was though if we had a regular season like we do now. (regular season being qualifiers essential for regional season finals). If we could have that qualification process for the season finals to be global based off points, seeding, or something it might help the scene. (global access for players). I personally really like the idea of region locking teams.
I think that would really be a step forward but I don't know how that would affect things in the long term. That would be a big move but it would force Koreas to decide between GSL/OSL or WCS AM. I'm not sure its long term impact though but its definitely something to discuss.
Another good idea!
Just give players native to the region x number of premier league seeds through a separate qualifier, while allowing koreans (and players native to the region who want a second chance to qualify) to have a qualifier for the remaining spots. Not only would it guarantee NA/EU players get more exposure, it would also make getting into NA/EU premier harder for koreans, thus discouraging playing outside of your region. It would also make the level of play in premier league higher without completely killing the local scene. Thanks for your opinion on this coolman.
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I guess in doing some thinking I think a format something along the following would be cool :
Grand WCS Finals - Players from the 3 regions seeded based on finishing/points. However many from each region(however it is now is fine). This is the big event.
WCS Regionals - Main Premier League Tournament - 32 Spots(Call it "regional code s"). 28 of those spots are allocated just like they are now, no region lock except that you need to be able to attend the offline finals. However, 4 of those spots go toward region locked qualifying players. The region locked qualifying players qualify through an open bracket that all masters/GM players are allowed to participate in. Seeding in that open bracket would exist based on previous finishing position. The challenger league would exist as it does now as well, but challenger league players will also be able to compete in the open bracket to get back into the premier league. In this way, regional players get essentially 2 opportunities to stay within the system, because if they finish top 4 in the open bracket, and get placed into the main event, losing early drops them into the challenger league.
Basically a system like that would allow a few players to bypass the climb into the premier league by finishing top 4 in the open brackets. They still might get cycled and spit out, but it gives hope for the regional players. It also leaves PLENTY of spots for the non-regional players and they can choose to go from there. I'd also have this system in place in Korea as well, so that you'd allow up and comers to jump in and cycle players into the mix in that way.
Hopefully I explained that right, but essentially allow a few spots in each region to let players get in through an open bracket and then be in the mix.
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Another one of these threads? How many times we have to go through this? You even posted in the other threads. How about having just one thread when it comes to the format and be done with it? You know why your comments get lost? It's because people don't read and heck I've said the same thing well over one hundred times already myself and when you create new threads like this all it does is add to the pile. With that said, people have lost sight of what the prelims really stand for. We have half a dozen organizations that host big LAN tournaments. The question is will this scene ever have the money to send every top tier pro to every OPEN event? We would have to follow the Western model, which would run very similar to a PGA/APT Tour. Each organization already hosts around 4 events a year. Think about it. You could have a Major Open Tournament practically every other week (each organization would act as host depending on region and location). The real problem is the expenses for the players/teams. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing because this would be a good way to weed out a lot of the shabby teams and in return we get a higher barrier to entry for having a legitimate team. Preferably (here I go repeating myself again) I much rather have a World Tour Circuit where fans get to meet all the best players and we would be increasing the competitive level with all of them facing one another on a more regular basis. It's good for the fans; it's good for marketing the players; and, you create a legitimate measuring stick and system for the players. We can have a Major League and a Minor League this way. I know maybe 3-4 people will read this post just like my other several hundred posts with regards to it and I know we're a long way away from anything that resembles this sort of system. Maybe something like this will happen several years from now because the money just isn't really there yet when it comes to getting the VISAs, flights, accommodations, food, etc. for the players.
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EPT
