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Please don't use this thread as a platform to argue about religion. -semioldguy |
On September 13 2012 02:30 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:22 HomeWorld wrote:
History is repeating , centuries ago we had the "Dark Age" perpetuated by christian fundamentalists (and we all know how many casualties were caused by it), now, (speaking mostly about the last 2 decades) we have the islamic fundamentalists, same crap, hate to the border of insanity, people getting killed left and right, tho, with a modern connotation. It makes you think that the whole reason why mankind is so fragmented in its thoughts and will is just because of "radical" and "perverted" interpretation of a religion.
Anyway, RIP Christopher Stevens and the 3 other diplomats that were killed. Anyone with a competent knowledge of history knows that the so-called label of "Dark Age" is a misnomer that no legitimate historian accepts.
Care to elaborate?
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It's 2012 and yet we still kill eachother over who's imaginary friend is better....
Only when religion falls will our earth have a chance at being peaceful
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On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression
It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist.
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On September 13 2012 02:32 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:26 Black[CAT] wrote:On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression But.. but.. but..... the Muslims all said that Islam is a religion of peace! It is, without a doubt, till the moment some persons uses it to push their own "agenda". Make no mistake Islam is a good religion, as every other religions on Earth, but sadly, as much as it is "good" there will always be some "bad" persons to take advantage of it and "push" their own will.
Some persons in this context meaning millions, including hundreds if not thousands of groups endorsing it.
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On September 13 2012 02:32 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:26 Black[CAT] wrote:On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression But.. but.. but..... the Muslims all said that Islam is a religion of peace! It is, without a doubt, till the moment some persons uses it to push their own "agenda". Make no mistake Islam is a good religion, as every other religions on Earth, but sadly, as much as it is "good" there will always be some "bad" persons to take advantage of it and "push" their own will.
Where does your premisse "every religion on Earth is a religion of peace"' comes from ?
How comes the role model of this religion beheaded himself several captives and toke as sex slaves the wife of his dead ennemies. These are facts of the Othman qu'ran and the hadiths.
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On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist.
Christianity passed the '' kill kill kill all infidels stage'' ages ago. What Islam needs is an enlightment but its foundation is fundamentally different.
Jesus died on the cross. Muhammed robbed carvavans, waged war, told people to stop believeing in their own god and chanted for all jews to die. Quite a difference if you ask me. Add the fact that the stories of Christianity have changed ( or better said their meaning) whereas the islamic stories never changed ( you must interpretet is directly)
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On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist.
Sadly this isnt so, alot of Muslims who were born and grew up in modern countries are still very backwards on religious issues. Those who in general become less religious are more integrated but a lot of those who stay religious are very hostile to any outsider and different belief.
For example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
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On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist.
Many people forget just how much younger and less progressed the Islamic faith is, at least in historical terms. Christianity has already gone through a stage in which schismatic groups jumped at the drop of a hat to commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, and as Islam permeates and instantiates itself as a world faith further, these sorts of "growing pains" (I hate to say something so pedestrian here, but it really fits) are going to happen, US involvement or not. There was even a time in which the Armies of King David had offshoot gangs of pissed off radical Jews would comb the Philistine countryside, looking for men to kill and religious points to make. Every major Abrahamic religion has gone through a period of random dogmatic violence, we need only look at history to realize that Islam is no different.
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On September 13 2012 02:41 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist. Many people forget just how much younger and less progressed the Islamic faith is, at least in historical terms. Christianity has already gone through a stage in which schismatic groups jumped at the drop of a hat to commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, and as Islam permeates and instantiates itself as a world faith further, these sorts of "growing pains" (I hate to say something so pedestrian here, but it really fits) are going to happen, US involvement or not. There was even a time in which the Armies of King David had offshoot gangs of pissed off radical Jews would comb the Philistine countryside, looking for men to kill and religious points to make. Every major Abrahamic religion has gone through a period of random dogmatic violence, we need only look at history to realize that Islam is no different.
I wonder if this is possible for Islam. It has always been a violent religion.
Christianity spread by peaceful conversions for a long time before it reached a time where it would use violence.Islam started as a violent religion, its nature is violent. And bar indonesia not a single Islamic nation became one by peaceful means.
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On September 13 2012 02:41 farvacola wrote:essed the Islamic faith is, at least in historical terms. Christianity has already gone through a stage in which schismatic groups jumped at the drop of a hat to commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, and as Islam permeates and instantiates itself as a world faith further, these sorts of "growing pains" (I hate to say something so pedestrian here, but it really fits) are going to happen, US involvement or not. There was even a time in which the Armies of King David had offshoot gangs of pissed off radical Jews would comb the Philistine countryside, looking for men to kill and religious points to make. Every major Abrahamic religion has gone through a period of random dogmatic violence, we need only look at history to realize that Islam is no different.
So basically its fine right? Let them kill people because they are growing up.
When a kid kills someone, don't you tell him it isn't too great to do so?
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On September 13 2012 02:44 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:41 farvacola wrote:On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist. Many people forget just how much younger and less progressed the Islamic faith is, at least in historical terms. Christianity has already gone through a stage in which schismatic groups jumped at the drop of a hat to commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, and as Islam permeates and instantiates itself as a world faith further, these sorts of "growing pains" (I hate to say something so pedestrian here, but it really fits) are going to happen, US involvement or not. There was even a time in which the Armies of King David had offshoot gangs of pissed off radical Jews would comb the Philistine countryside, looking for men to kill and religious points to make. Every major Abrahamic religion has gone through a period of random dogmatic violence, we need only look at history to realize that Islam is no different. I wonder if this is possible for Islam. It has always been a violent religion. Christianity spread by peaceful conversions for a long time before it reached a time where it would use violent.Islam started as a violent religion, its nature is violent. And Bar indonesia not a single Islamic nation became one by peaceful means.
I beg to differ, many breakthroughs in mathematics were done by Islamic scholars. Also, if I recall correctly the history that I've learned in school/highschool, there were no major events (in a bad way) pre ww2 that can be attributed to Islamism.
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On September 13 2012 02:44 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:41 farvacola wrote:On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist. Many people forget just how much younger and less progressed the Islamic faith is, at least in historical terms. Christianity has already gone through a stage in which schismatic groups jumped at the drop of a hat to commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, and as Islam permeates and instantiates itself as a world faith further, these sorts of "growing pains" (I hate to say something so pedestrian here, but it really fits) are going to happen, US involvement or not. There was even a time in which the Armies of King David had offshoot gangs of pissed off radical Jews would comb the Philistine countryside, looking for men to kill and religious points to make. Every major Abrahamic religion has gone through a period of random dogmatic violence, we need only look at history to realize that Islam is no different. I wonder if this is possible for Islam. It has always been a violent religion. Christianity spread by peaceful conversions for a long time before it reached a time where it would use violent.Islam started as a violent religion, its nature is violent. And Bar indonesia not a single Islamic nation became one by peaceful means.
You bring up an interesting point, but I'm not sure it makes sense to look at Islam in explicitly national terms. You are correct in pointing out the violent genesis of Islamic power in many Middle Eastern states, but the massive diaspora of Muslims across the world points to a phenomena in which the peaceful, more harmonious brands of Islam are the kinds that travel and shun national boundaries. While I realize it is controversial to suggest such a thing in some circles, the vast, vast majority of Muslims living in non-Islamic countries are peaceful, dare I say patriotic individuals who seek only to practice their faith and be given equal consideration.
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On September 13 2012 02:44 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:41 farvacola wrote:On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist. Many people forget just how much younger and less progressed the Islamic faith is, at least in historical terms. Christianity has already gone through a stage in which schismatic groups jumped at the drop of a hat to commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, and as Islam permeates and instantiates itself as a world faith further, these sorts of "growing pains" (I hate to say something so pedestrian here, but it really fits) are going to happen, US involvement or not. There was even a time in which the Armies of King David had offshoot gangs of pissed off radical Jews would comb the Philistine countryside, looking for men to kill and religious points to make. Every major Abrahamic religion has gone through a period of random dogmatic violence, we need only look at history to realize that Islam is no different. I wonder if this is possible for Islam. It has always been a violent religion. Christianity spread by peaceful conversions for a long time before it reached a time where it would use violent.Islam started as a violent religion, its nature is violent. And Bar indonesia not a single Islamic nation became one by peaceful means.
Christianity was spread by force by the Roman and Byzantine emperors, with heavy persecution of non-Christians (especially pagans and Jews). Through further coercion by other kings who converted to Christianity for various reasons, it spread into northern and eastern Europe, and through colonization of the New World, to the Americas as well. Just disgusting like Islam, but obviously Christianity has lost its extremist hold in the last few centuries. Fortunately in the current era, Christianity is losing its relevance in many Western countries, so you hardly see any idiotic extremists like you see in many Islamic countries.
If Christianity was spread by peaceful conversions, rather than imperialism and force for 90+% of the cases, I doubt it would have even 100 million followers. In fact, it doesn't surprise me at all that the Christian world is becoming more and more atheistic.
That said, even the western narrative for Islam is that is largely spread peacefully, although I doubt such a thing. For example, advanced and powerful nations do not convert to the religion of semi-nomadic, poor people on their own accords, especially not the Persians who took great means to preserve their language and culture despite the Arabian conquerors.
Perhaps, from a strategic standpoint, the Persians shouldn't have put their capital right next to modern-day Baghdad, right north of the marauding armies from Arabia. :/
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On September 13 2012 02:48 HomeWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 02:44 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 13 2012 02:41 farvacola wrote:On September 13 2012 02:35 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:On September 12 2012 20:00 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 19:57 Eisregen wrote:
OK let's look at the facts:
Online film about islam, also equalling it with "cancer"
Anyone surprised some religious dudes snapped? -No, not really.
Man, one should know, that things like this can happen, especially as simple-minded believers are ppl you won't be able to discuss anything with. They will just break out in anger and kill you. Christianity gets bashed all the time, no rockets fired at people. Fact of the matter is Islam is extremly intolerant and paranoid about critisism ( justified, or as in this case rubbish) Muhammed cartoons > Riots Muhammed movie > riots African teddy bear named muhammed > Riots Such a downright violent religion, and people wonder why its known as the religion of violence and opression It's not about a specific religion, it's about the state of the countries this religion mainly exists in and how the countries operate. Christianity used to be just as violent as the Islam is now, and Muslims that have been raised and grown up in modern countries are just as reasonable as anyone else. It's pretty stupid and closed minded to say that their specific religion is the problem. If they were all Christians they would still be just as extremist. Many people forget just how much younger and less progressed the Islamic faith is, at least in historical terms. Christianity has already gone through a stage in which schismatic groups jumped at the drop of a hat to commit acts of violence in the name of Christ, and as Islam permeates and instantiates itself as a world faith further, these sorts of "growing pains" (I hate to say something so pedestrian here, but it really fits) are going to happen, US involvement or not. There was even a time in which the Armies of King David had offshoot gangs of pissed off radical Jews would comb the Philistine countryside, looking for men to kill and religious points to make. Every major Abrahamic religion has gone through a period of random dogmatic violence, we need only look at history to realize that Islam is no different. I wonder if this is possible for Islam. It has always been a violent religion. Christianity spread by peaceful conversions for a long time before it reached a time where it would use violent.Islam started as a violent religion, its nature is violent. And Bar indonesia not a single Islamic nation became one by peaceful means. I beg to differ, many breakthroughs in mathematics were done by Islamic scholars. Also, if I recall correctly the history that I've learned in school/highschool, there were no major events (in a bad way) pre ww2 that can be attributed to Islamism.
What does Mathematics have to do with takfirism.
Besides, Muslims at that time islamized the whole Persia, North Africa, and Spain. If you know anything about the history of these rich and prosperous regions, t's quite logical to expect a few good Scientifics emerging from them.
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So...after my infantile rage, I thought about Sean Smith...
I have known people in communities that I have talked to who later died from either car accidents or a very severe illness. I cannot understand the sadness that the EVE Community must be going through. This was not one of several of thousands of people who died in a car accident every day, this guy was tarted and was one of 3 people killed and getting murdered is much more unlikely to happen to someone, even if they are a high ranking official. The statistics of that happening seem very unlikely at a first glance and he was somehow murdered. Talk about horrible luck...RIP Sean Smith and I hope the EVE Online community will not think of retaliation or some sort of revenge.
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Every single poster on this page (p16) was banned (excluding me I hope  ), maybe close this thread as it is too difficult a topic to discuss, especially if discussing religion is considered too sensitive.
On topic: I feel sad that people were murdered for what another person said. That's just not right, no matter your convictions.
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On September 12 2012 23:56 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 23:36 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:29 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:15 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:03 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:00 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 22:50 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 22:31 Mephy wrote:On September 12 2012 22:27 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 22:15 Mephy wrote:
Some posts in here that call Islam a "violent religion" are really fucking depressing. And I'm not even Muslim, I'm Christian. I sincerely hope people are able to make the distinction between a violent religion and fanatical extremists.
Islam at its roots is no more violent than any other religion in the world. I ask those who claim that Islam preaches violence - where exactly in the Quran does it call out for Muslims to actively murder and kill other non-Muslims? I can assure you that there are much, much more passages committed to spreading the message of peace and forgiveness. And please, please don't take messages out of context like the idiot on the previous page.
Some of the Muslims may have acted out of anger that someone insulted their religion, and you can argue that their killing was motivated by their interpretation of Islam. But in that case, why aren't the rest of the 1.6 billion Muslims picking up their rocket launchers and going to war? You're looking at a very small group of fanatics (relatively) with their own warped interpretation of Islam, not the vast majority of the Muslim population, and then suddenly you decide its alright to label the entire Islamic religion as violent?
Want to stop the senseless killings and promote peace? Well you guys sure aren't helping with your uneducated comments. How about you start by understanding other religions and stop perpetuating these stereotypes? [3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust. [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do. [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. [9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement. Now that you've found those, why don't you compile a list of passages that talk about peace and equality? Then we can find some sort of ratio and determine if Islam is violent. You act as if there is some sort of mental tug of war in the minds of these murderers and terrorists. But if you've actually watched any of their propaganda you'd know there is no such conflict, they are absolutely clear-headed that Islam and the Quran justifies suicide bombings and murders. The ratio of good-to-bad is not part of their mental calculus. Why do these people keep talking about Allah, Islam, and slaughtering infidels? Could it be because religion has everything to do with their reasoning? And it is these types of hateful and intolerant teachings that allows them to justify to themselves why it is acceptable to kill someone else for blasphemy. If you deny that Islam is the primary source of their murderous outrage, then what is it? You say that these murderers have a warped view of Islam. Then why aren't there similarly warped views of Christianity that leads to suicide bombings? Could it be that Islam is more forcefully intolerant and hateful than Christianity? And in the face of these atrocities, what do you do? Nothing. No condemnation. You write as if we should just open our arms to accept these primitives who believe in a religion that calls for the murder of nonbelievers and blasphemers. Let's welcome these people who are from the most theocratic and intolerant places on planet Earth, pretending that there is absolutely nothing wrong with what they believe, despite that the fact that this religion has bred suicide bombers, religious fanatics, and murderous mobs like nowhere else in the modern world. What could possibly go wrong? Remember Madrid? London? You know very well that it is not just religion that causes these people to go out murdering others. I would put my money on Christians going out chopping off heads if they were oppressed as a lot of these Muslim nations have been. U.S.-backed dictators who slaughter innocent civilians? Yeah, that's totally okay. I will never justify suicide bombing; I will always deem it barbaric and tragic. But if you think America does not have its fair share of blame, you are sorely mistaken. Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere. Our enemies--as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves--are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances. How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education? How many more middle-class British citizens must blow themselves up along with scores of noncombatants before we acknowledge that Muslim terrorism is not matter of poverty or political oppression? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html I've already said that you cannot compare Buddhism to any other religion. How about we compare Muslims to the Jews, who have been engaged in systematic genocide against the Palestinians? But if you really want to bring up Buddhists, how about the Buddhists of Myanmar murdering Muslims? And if Christians were in the same situation, they would be leading crusades right about now. Yes, Muslims in general have more radical principles, but the ones going out murdering people are a tiny, tiny minority of fanatics. The quotes you've listed before were all taken out of context. You might want to actually read the Quran. It might help you understand them more. And jeeze, really? The United States directly props up a heinous monarch who slaughters his people and suddenly, it's every Muslim who gets the backlash for it. Lose-lose situation for the Muslims, ain't it? Genocide? You mean the Palestinian's myriad of attacks on the Israelis. I don't see how this proves your point, given that this is a conflict that at it's core is based on an interpretation of who the Bible says owns the land. And you realize that the violence between the Muslims and Buddhists in Myanmar was started by the Muslims who raped and murdered a Buddhist? The point is, there is a easy path from Islam to murderous atrocities. Don't take my word for it, go watch some videos of these murderers and terrorist boasting. Let them speak for themselves. You can call them tiny, tiny minorities all you want, all murder is a tiny, tiny minority, but the fact remains that this tiny, tiny minorities doesn't exist in other religions. There are gradations of evil and intolerance. When's the last time any other religion rioted and murdered because someone else made fun of their god? And multiply that by, what, 6? Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, must have nothing to do with this: ![[image loading]](http://www.thehypertexts.com/images/israel-palestine_map.jpg) And the Myanmar situation stems much further back than an incident in which some men attempted to rape a girl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_BurmaThe point is, these people who are committing murderous atrocities -- this tiny, tiny minority -- interpret the Quran in their own way, a way in which most every other Muslim condemns. The thing with Western nations is, we don't need to use religion as a pretense to murder people - we use Democracy. Islam is to them what Democracy is to us. I wonder who's taken more lives - Democracy or Islam? Western countries did not invade Afghanistan and Iraq to murder its civilians in the name of democracy.
I feel like this is an immensely stupid thing to say. You don't take a dump in your toilet to splash your ass with water. It happens. In war you are 100% certain it will happen.
Palestine vs Israel, they didn't start the conflict to kill civilians but to get their lands back. Civilian deaths happen, and the conflict has gotten ugly... What if someone killed your mother, would you sit by and say "oh well, atleast I know I shouldn't apply violence. High road ftw". Or if someone suddenly said the land you were living on now belongs to an entirely new country. Would you smile and accept this? Do you think every single one in your entire state would simply accept this? Do you think they would want to kill civilians, or to take their land back? Do you think no civilian would get hurt in the process? Do you think such a conflict couldn't possibly get out of hand? I mean, come on. It's not realistic. I really don't see how these acts of war are mainly religious. A land being occupied or stripped from a people by force always results in conflict. Even after capitulation you should expect some sort of underground resistance.
And anyone not understanding why Palestine applies violence has never read any history where a country was occupied (e.g second world war). It happens every single f***** time. Resistance to, atleast, some degree. You can't judge a people for doing exactly what you would have done yourself.
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to talk about history a little bit, i cant help but feel that the entire middle east is trying to reclaim and retake its lost glory. prior to the crusades, the middle east was one of the most populous, well educated, and generally stable regions is the world. After the crusades were over a slow decline started due to all the different factions make grabs for power. then the plaguu hit most of europe and fostered conditions for the renaissance to occur. at which point europe leap-frogged technologically and socially. skip a few hundred years to right about the end of ww1, suddenly oil and gas are in high demand, only getting more valuable, and sheikhs who had been told of the glory days of byzantium and persia and how it was taken from them by the "christian dogs" find themselves in a position of power.
the next few decades should be no surprise. they ( i imagine) had socioeconomic power concentrated into the hands of a few people who wanted nothing more than to bring the "glory days" back and, as is very relevant in that part of the world, wanted respect and retribution.
our increased use of proxies in the region combined with our ever increased need of resources put them where they have to power and will to use any means available to strike at the western nations who abused them and stole their glory and honor (in their minds)
*edit for clarity
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On September 13 2012 00:09 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 00:03 WhiteDog wrote:On September 13 2012 00:00 Sated wrote:On September 12 2012 23:59 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:56 Sated wrote:On September 12 2012 23:36 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:29 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:15 Souma wrote:On September 12 2012 23:03 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 12 2012 23:00 Souma wrote:
[quote]
You know very well that it is not just religion that causes these people to go out murdering others. I would put my money on Christians going out chopping off heads if they were oppressed as a lot of these Muslim nations have been. U.S.-backed dictators who slaughter innocent civilians? Yeah, that's totally okay.
I will never justify suicide bombing; I will always deem it barbaric and tragic. But if you think America does not have its fair share of blame, you are sorely mistaken. Anyone who imagines that terrestrial concerns account for Muslim terrorism must answer questions of the following sort: Where are the Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers? The Tibetans have suffered an occupation far more brutal, and far more cynical, than any that Britain, the United States, or Israel have ever imposed upon the Muslim world. Where are the throngs of Tibetans ready to perpetrate suicidal atrocities against Chinese noncombatants? They do not exist. What is the difference that makes the difference? The difference lies in the specific tenets of Islam. This is not to say that Buddhism could not help inspire suicidal violence. It can, and it has (Japan, World War II). But this concedes absolutely nothing to the apologists for Islam. As a Buddhist, one has to work extremely hard to justify such barbarism. One need not work nearly so hard as a Muslim. The truth that we must finally confront is that Islam contains specific notions of martyrdom and jihad that fully explain the character of Muslim violence. Unless the world’s Muslims can find some way of expunging the metaphysics that is fast turning their religion into a cult of death, we will ultimately face the same perversely destructive behavior throughout much of the world. We are now mired in a religious war in Iraq and elsewhere. Our enemies--as witnessed by their astonishing willingness to slaughter themselves--are not principally motivated by political or economic grievances. How many more architects and electrical engineers must fly planes into buildings before we realize that the problem of Muslim extremism is not merely a matter of education? How many more middle-class British citizens must blow themselves up along with scores of noncombatants before we acknowledge that Muslim terrorism is not matter of poverty or political oppression? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/bombing-our-illusions_b_8615.html I've already said that you cannot compare Buddhism to any other religion. How about we compare Muslims to the Jews, who have been engaged in systematic genocide against the Palestinians? But if you really want to bring up Buddhists, how about the Buddhists of Myanmar murdering Muslims? And if Christians were in the same situation, they would be leading crusades right about now. Yes, Muslims in general have more radical principles, but the ones going out murdering people are a tiny, tiny minority of fanatics. The quotes you've listed before were all taken out of context. You might want to actually read the Quran. It might help you understand them more. And jeeze, really? The United States directly props up a heinous monarch who slaughters his people and suddenly, it's every Muslim who gets the backlash for it. Lose-lose situation for the Muslims, ain't it? Genocide? You mean the Palestinian's myriad of attacks on the Israelis. I don't see how this proves your point, given that this is a conflict that at it's core is based on an interpretation of who the Bible says owns the land. And you realize that the violence between the Muslims and Buddhists in Myanmar was started by the Muslims who raped and murdered a Buddhist? The point is, there is a easy path from Islam to murderous atrocities. Don't take my word for it, go watch some videos of these murderers and terrorist boasting. Let them speak for themselves. You can call them tiny, tiny minorities all you want, all murder is a tiny, tiny minority, but the fact remains that this tiny, tiny minorities doesn't exist in other religions. There are gradations of evil and intolerance. When's the last time any other religion rioted and murdered because someone else made fun of their god? And multiply that by, what, 6? Gee, I wonder why the Palestinians are attacking the Israelis, must have nothing to do with this: And the Myanmar situation stems much further back than an incident in which some men attempted to rape a girl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_BurmaThe point is, these people who are committing murderous atrocities -- this tiny, tiny minority -- interpret the Quran in their own way, a way in which most every other Muslim condemns. The thing with Western nations is, we don't need to use religion as a pretense to murder people - we use Democracy. Islam is to them what Democracy is to us. I wonder who's taken more lives - Democracy or Islam? If I made the same chart for UK territory from the days of the Empire to the present day, would you also deem it acceptable for the UK to attack - for instance - India? Using that chart to justify violence is dumb. Your example is dumb. If it was Germany taking over England, it would make sense for the English to fight back, yes. Okay, now I go to bed. You're from America, so how about this: Would it be okay for Native Americans to start bombing parts of the USA? EDIT: To the people above, my example was supposed to be extreme and stupid, it highlights just how stupid the original chart is. The indiens fought back when Americans took over their lands, and who ever said they shouldn't have ? Also, Israelians took over Palestine 60 years ago, not very far, perfectly normal for them to fight. The amount of time required for people to stop being pissed off about something is completely subjective. The point remains that using that chart to justify violence (directed almost entirely at innocent civilians I might add; it's not as if this is a military conflict) is entirely ridiculous.
Mz. Israel keeps building new walls and what not to grab more and more land. "Stop being pissed about something" to you means "prevent their lands from being lost completely" to them. Based on your cenario you would not fight. Based on their, you might have. Or perhaps you wouldn't mind your country being completely extinguished?
I'm not suggesting war is good, but playing devils advocate to bring forth the point that sometimes, to some people, it will be a neccesary evil. If the injustice feels great enough, you will not care about how you hurt your enemy. You will just want to cut them. Blaming the Palestinians is, in a way, very one sided and simple minded. We don't have to condone their acts, but saying they are the evil side of this conflict is an oversimplification.
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Oh for the love of bacon we better not invade Libya because of this as this seems like a perfect selling point.
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EPT
