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Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
August 25 2011 08:59 GMT
#241
well im going to be away a while
just in case i miss the deadline, im going to
##Vote Tnkted
for a few reasons
1) and lets start with the petty one, he's the one who first bought me up as a suspected scum, in an effort to save his own hide
2) I voted for him previously before stopping to vote for the EH, since im not sure which of wiggles or ferryman i believe to be EH more, Tnkted seems like a safer lynch option
3) Chaos made a pretty convincing post, and it wasn't the first of it's ilk
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
August 25 2011 09:45 GMT
#242
On August 25 2011 10:44 Sevryn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2011 10:22 Navillus wrote:
##Extension, I want more time on this

we only get two extensions so i would much rather wait till we need more discussion later in the game for an extension.
@jackal
Did you read that we get an extra day if we lynch the EH?
I think we should focus on lynching scum when we have a good candidate like Cheese today and if we don't I think the case on wiggles is quite strong.

Didn't realize that until Ferryman pointed it out to me.

I agree with Chaos13 on tnkted.

##VOTE: tnkted
Life can only kill you once.
Eiii
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2566 Posts
August 25 2011 09:55 GMT
#243
Sorry about being gone, last day in town for a bunch of friends. Reading up now!
:3
Eiii
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2566 Posts
August 25 2011 10:48 GMT
#244
Alright, I think the CC lynch is a mistake. People have made exactly the argument I would already-- his posts are blatant and frequent, there's not even a hint of him trying to do anything sneaky, etc.

Wiggles, sorry about the rambling post on breadcrumbs. I meant the conclusion to be solidly negative, trying to dissuade people from breadcrumbing by explaining how useless they are without a way to solidly claim before death. I looked at the setup, and saw no DTs!

Tnk looks like the best lynch to me, as well. Jumping on someone who's playing badly but not scummily and pushing them hard for a lynch seems more like scum trying to keep from getting lynched day one than anything else.

##unvote
##vote tnkted

:3
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
August 25 2011 10:49 GMT
#245
tnkted isn't scum
Computer says mafia
Eiii
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2566 Posts
August 25 2011 10:54 GMT
#246
do tell
:3
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
August 25 2011 11:15 GMT
#247
Just vote for wiggles instead.
Computer says mafia
Eiii
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2566 Posts
August 25 2011 11:25 GMT
#248
I don't really see it. Drawing evidence to support a pretty scary-looking case against you-- especially evidence that's a frustrating, memorable, and recent experience of just about the same situation-- isn't all that damning to me.
:3
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
August 25 2011 11:32 GMT
#249
On August 25 2011 20:25 Eiii wrote:
I don't really see it. Drawing evidence to support a pretty scary-looking case against you-- especially evidence that's a frustrating, memorable, and recent experience of just about the same situation-- isn't all that damning to me.


yes, but look at the way tnkted is posting.

I'd rather lynch almost everyone in this town than him. Wiggles is the alternative wagon, and while I have no clue how Ferryman goes about pinning him EA vs just "anti-town", I think the case against wiggles is much stronger.

Wiggles is a great player, but I just don't think it'll work in our favour this game.
Computer says mafia
chaos13
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada885 Posts
August 25 2011 11:42 GMT
#250
The only thing I don't like about the tnkted lynch right now is how quickly people are switching without actually providing new analysis. And this:

On August 25 2011 18:45 Jackal58 wrote:

Didn't realize that until Ferryman pointed it out to me.

I agree with Chaos13 on tnkted.

##VOTE: tnkted


Jackal never agrees with me so willingly.
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
August 25 2011 12:00 GMT
#251
yes, kill wiggles!
Computer says mafia
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
August 25 2011 12:24 GMT
#252
The more I think about it, the more I think Tnkted is much in the same boat that I put myself in to, he took his intial theory a little bit too far and spoke too much
That said, I'm keeping my vote on him because of two reasons:
1) He might actually be scum
2) I have to have a vote placed and he's still what I consider the safest bet
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22632 Posts
August 25 2011 12:25 GMT
#253
On August 25 2011 21:24 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think Tnkted is much in the same boat that I put myself in to, he took his intial theory a little bit too far and spoke too much
That said, I'm keeping my vote on him because of two reasons:
1) He might actually be scum
2) I have to have a vote placed and he's still what I consider the safest bet


Why are you more concerned with not being wrong than killing scum?
Computer says mafia
Tackster
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland429 Posts
August 25 2011 12:31 GMT
#254
Ok here comes a vote update:

Cyber_Cheese (5)
tnkted
Sevryn
Erandorr
JeeJee
Forumite

Mr. Wiggles (2)
TheFerryman
Palmar

tnkted (4)
chaos13
Cyber_Cheese
Jackal58
Eiii

Eiii (1)
Mr. Wiggles

Not voted
Navillus


Navillus you need to vote to avoid any penalties or being replaced/kicked.
As of 21:29 KST this is the updated vote count. Do not refer to the OP vote count until you see a more recent edit stamp there.

The method I use to keep track of votes requires a consistent voting etiquette. Follow the proper format. You haz been warned.

Tackster: Can you give me a synonym of flammable? Deconduo: Inflammable...
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
August 25 2011 12:33 GMT
#255
On August 25 2011 21:25 Palmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2011 21:24 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think Tnkted is much in the same boat that I put myself in to, he took his intial theory a little bit too far and spoke too much
That said, I'm keeping my vote on him because of two reasons:
1) He might actually be scum
2) I have to have a vote placed and he's still what I consider the safest bet


Why are you more concerned with not being wrong than killing scum?


Uh yea I see how it could come across that way in hindsight
I don't think he's innocent, I'm just saying I think he made himself look guilty in the same manner I did, more or less
And noones specifically come out to defend him either if i'm not mistaken
I'm looking for parallels that reflect in my play to learn the differences between sc2 and forum mafia as I go
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
August 25 2011 12:34 GMT
#256
On August 25 2011 20:42 chaos13 wrote:
The only thing I don't like about the tnkted lynch right now is how quickly people are switching without actually providing new analysis. And this:

Show nested quote +
On August 25 2011 18:45 Jackal58 wrote:

Didn't realize that until Ferryman pointed it out to me.

I agree with Chaos13 on tnkted.

##VOTE: tnkted


Jackal never agrees with me so willingly.


On August 25 2011 09:02 Jackal58 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 04:22 tnkted wrote:
If anyone else has a stronger read that can convince me I would lynch them instead, but for d1 lynch palmar is my vote.

Your immediate jump on Palmar is scummy. I understood that what he made was a joke. He was directly poking at me.

Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 03:15 tnkted wrote:
Wait a minute.

how does insanity effect mafia? Do their kills fail or something?

Nice effort.


Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 05:29 tnkted wrote:
I don't think he's acted any scummier than Palmar, but Palmar has a better excuse to lynch. Navillus said the sort of thing I said all the time when I was a newbie. Palmar said something that could either be a joke or a slip and I'm rating the chances of either at 50-50.

This is so freaking scummy I had to go brush my teeth.

Pick it up Twinkles. I'm really not liking what I'm seeing.



I assumed you were agreeing with me.
Life can only kill you once.
chaos13
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada885 Posts
August 25 2011 12:35 GMT
#257
On August 25 2011 21:33 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2011 21:25 Palmar wrote:
On August 25 2011 21:24 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think Tnkted is much in the same boat that I put myself in to, he took his intial theory a little bit too far and spoke too much
That said, I'm keeping my vote on him because of two reasons:
1) He might actually be scum
2) I have to have a vote placed and he's still what I consider the safest bet


Why are you more concerned with not being wrong than killing scum?


Uh yea I see how it could come across that way in hindsight
I don't think he's innocent, I'm just saying I think he made himself look guilty in the same manner I did, more or less
And noones specifically come out to defend him either if i'm not mistaken
I'm looking for parallels that reflect in my play to learn the differences between sc2 and forum mafia as I go


Thing is, you're new to forum mafia. tnkted is rather good at forum mafia. None of his play so far reflects this.
tnkted
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1359 Posts
August 25 2011 12:36 GMT
#258
I have to change my play or something, I'm suspected of being scum d1 virtually every game I play as town.

On August 25 2011 12:07 chaos13 wrote:
tnkted

Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 00:57 tnkted wrote:
On August 24 2011 00:55 Palmar wrote:
On August 24 2011 00:46 tnkted wrote:
On August 24 2011 00:29 Palmar wrote:
I have discarded my win condition, my sole object this game will be to convince Jackal I'm town, seeing as it's a feat I've never achieved.


Oh!? You have a win condition other than winning with town?


derp.


lololo

#vote palmar



To begin with, we have him attacking an apparent scum slip by Palmar. Anyone with eyes can see that his slip was intended as a joke post, but apparently that's worth a vote.

This was a joke pressure anyway, to which palmar responded scummilly.

Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 01:25 tnkted wrote:
...... okay. Nice crumb.

##unvote


...and a crumb is worth an unvote.

Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 01:25 tnkted wrote:
Oh wait, the PMs are posted in the OP.

NEVERMIND

##vote palmar



And then a realization that it could have been a faked crumb is worth voting again.

Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 09:45 tnkted wrote:
Ferryman, if you are new, then welcome to mafia! You have a bright future here, and if you're town mafia will probably want to hit you n1.

In this case though, I think you might be right but lynching palmar is a better move here. Sir Jesse Wiggles ESQ (duke of yorkshire) is a notoriously difficult person to read at the best of times because he plays so close to the chest, and I've written my share of analysis on him and been wrong every time.

That being said, your evidence makes a lot of sense, and if we don't have any other leads tomorrow I'd be totally happy gettin' wiggy wit' it. But right now, palmar is a better lynch because

A) His response to the FOS has been very scummy
B) The slip thing I mentioned earlier
C) It's day 1 so if I'm wrong, it's not THAT big of a deal.

Keep your eye on Wiggles and if you find anything else we'll act on it. For now though, Palmar is scummier than wiggles and I'd rather lynch him,

Just some advice: the first post you posted felt to me like more of a pressure post (ie it wasn't very convincing) but the second one (the meta one) was much more convincing (wiggles rather comprehensive response notwithstanding).


Here is where tnkted really begins to show his scumminess. The first paragraph can be ignored. Paragraph #2 contains a multitude of mafia traits. To begin with, he agrees with Ferryman's position, but still feels that Palmar is a better lynch. Why? Because Wiggles is tough to get a read on. This is a cautious wishy-washy stance. He allows an excuse for being wrong, and is stuck on tunnel-mode on Palmar, because that is a perfect cover for mafia to hide under.
Paragraph 3\ABC

I bolded and underlined the biggest reason, which you simply skimmed over. Wiggles being tough to get a read on isn't why palmar is a better lynch, but it IS why I'm not swayed by his analysis. Your arguements here are extremely misleading.

Par. 3 supports the wishy-washy scum stance seen earlier. The ABC's display a terribly weak case against Palmar. He states that Palmar's response to being accused was very scummy, but fails to explain how. Even a general statement of how it was scummy would be better, but there is absolutely nothing here. Then back to the "slip", and finally closing with a careless attitude towards lynching town. We should never want to lynch town. Day 1 is just as or more important than any other day, because if we can lessen their numbers now, they have fewer kills on N1 and beyond.

I responded to the underlined portion THE VERY NEXT POST YOU QUOTE. Did you not reread this post before you posted it?


Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 23:28 tnkted wrote:
Okay, lets talk about Navillus and Palmar.

This is the reason why some people were suspecting Narvillus:
On August 24 2011 00:20 Navillus wrote:
Dammit I need to role something more interesting than townie one of these days... anyway, I've never played a mini before so I'm very open to any mini-specific advice anyone has.


versus this:
On August 24 2011 00:29 Palmar wrote:
I have discarded my win condition, my sole object this game will be to convince Jackal I'm town, seeing as it's a feat I've never achieved.


Which one of those seems scummier to you? To me, the second comment seems scummier by far.

Now, I'd be willing to believe that it was a joke if it wasn't for Palmar's response:

On August 24 2011 01:12 Palmar wrote:
Right.

This is not what happened. My win condition is to eliminate all threats to town. I did not slip, you're trying to manufacture evidence out of something that doesn't exist. My joke can't even be shrugged off as bad town play because nothing exists in it that would indicate I'm not town.


This is a very sullen, angry response. Rather than joke around with my pressure and OMGUS, like Narvillus's did:

On August 24 2011 01:29 Navillus wrote:
##Vote: Jackal58

OMGUS


Narvillus wasn't worried about the pressure because he was having fun and joking around; he knew he was innocent and he knew that jackal thought he was innocent. Meanwhile, Palmar's FIRST INSTINCT upon being accused was to lash out. his FIRST INSTINCT is to accuse me of manufacturing evidence. Is that a reasonable response? I sure don't think it is.

So that's my case for accusing palmar. You can find it convincing, or you can find it unconvincing, I'm not really concerned about it. Much of what I just outlined happened in my head unconciously and I'm sort of explaining my scumdar pings after the fact, if that makes any sense.


So according to tnkted his vote on Palmar was a joke, and he didn't think it was actually a slip. He states that Palmar actually defending himself was scummy because a player like Navillus was relaxed and joked around, because the vote on him wasn't serious. Comparing these two gives a solid impression that tnkted's vote on Palmar was not intended to be serious, which means that only Palmar's reaction to it should have been used as evidence. As can be seen by the previous post I quoted, however, tnkted is still using it as proof that Palmar is mafia, still considering it a scum slip. That's a rather large hole in his argument I'd say.

Try paraphrasing this sentance out loud. According to this thing he did previously, which he stopped, hes STILL doing the thing that he stopped doing. This sort of obvious logical error is a result of

1. poor reasoning
2. tunnelling, which, I remind you, you accused ME of doing above, calling it scummy behavior.



Show nested quote +
On August 25 2011 09:51 tnkted wrote:

Ok, several things are happening right now that need to stop.

1. Wifom. Go google 'wine in front of me' if you don't understand what this is. The post I just quoted was distilled seven times from fruit of the wifom bush, and if you were to drink it you'd get so drunk on overthought you'd end up throwing up all over qatol and get yourself banned.
2. Talk about 'taking responsibility for the lynch'. No, that's stupid, thats not how days generally work. Whoever gets lynched d1 gets lynched because the best case was made against them. The people who pushed that lynch the hardest aren't 'responsible' anymore than the people that they convinced. The arguement was just convincing. That's it.

If we lynch cyber_cheese, tomorrow I might be the one that's most to blame, but I'm no more responsible and it doesn't make me any scummier if he does flip green. There are thousands of townies that have pushed a wrong read and got somebody innocent lynched; the fact that they were SURE that their target is town doesn't make them scum, it just makes them wrong. That shit happens in mafia.

3. The same principle applies for things like 'x defended y and y flipped mafia so x must also be mafia'. This is erronious thinking; there's nothing stopping mafia from defending certain townies to gain town cred. Mafia doesn't care who gets lynched as long as its not one of them, and often times mafia will try to bus their own teammates to get town cred. Town credit is more important to mafia than almost anything else, because it's a coin that can be spent at lylo for a free win.


1. Nothing scummy about this content. Nothing town either.

I usually hate talking about 'town atmosphere' but there was talk about people 'taking responsibility' and constant wifoming. How is an attempt to remove that shit bad for town, especially in a game with so many new players?

2. In this section of his post, tnkted wants to remove responsibility from players for mislynches. That is a ridiculously scummy attitude. The people who pushed the lynch DO have to be responsible for it, otherwise mafia can get away with coming up with a case on a slightly scummy townie and get a mislynch every day, and according to you get away with it scot-free. If you're pushing for someone's lynch and they flip green, then you do get a bit scummier for it. If it happens consistently we really need to take a look at you and sort things out.

Would you want to see a townie policy lynched for promoting a bad lynch? Then we lose 2 and a day for a mislynch instead of 1. This seems like what you're promoting here, and it's an extremely scummy attitude. And yes, if the mafia can convince the town that someone innocent is guilty, then that person is going to get lynched and policy lynching the mafia the next day is just fucking stupid. THOUSANDS of games in my experience ended up with a townie tunnelling another townie, getting that townie lynched, while the surviver lasted until endgame. Ask any of the other vets here if policy lynching for a bad lynch is a good idea, they'll tell you exactly the same thing.

3. Wrong again. You want to take away the only tool we have for linking mafia to each other. When somebody flips red, or green for that matter, we look back at who they interacted with and how they interacted with them. You're pushing a seriously mafia agenda here. Responsibility is key in this game, because mafia without responsibility don't have to worry about anything.

So anyone the mafia defends is obviously scum eh? That seems like an easy loophole. If I'm mafia and I defended you, would you suddenly 'become' mafia?

You're misunderstanding how scum operate, which is very strange to me given that I've seen you play a few games. When I play as scum I make it a point to defend people who are being bandwagoned because it gains you town cred. Here's a fact for you: Town cred is the most important thing for the mafia; with town cred they can get away with anything, including acting scummy or dayvigging or shooting the town dt and claiming it.

In fact, to gain town cred, mafia will even sacrifice their own members to the mob. This is so common, theres a word for it: bussing. This alone should demolish your theory; If the mafia only protect other mafia, wouldn't the converse of that be true, that mafia only push townies for lynches?

The fact is, its exceedingly difficult to link mafia together; most mafia hunts end up being a person by person hunt. Two mafia are rarely linked together in a game like this that doesn't have dayroles or weird abilities. We'll have to find out each one individually by themselves. That's how mafia works.


tnkted is mafia.



Conclusion: Chaos13 clearly didn't read very carefully. He seems to have cherry picked my posts in an attempt to make me seem scum. I'm not drawing any conclusions about his alignment from this, but it's not positive.

My thoughts on cyber_cheese coming up after i get to work/attend a few meetings.
'I think "tnkted" may have justified this entire thread.' - Mjolnir
Hesmyrr
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada5776 Posts
August 25 2011 12:55 GMT
#259
Cyber_Cheese was warned for editing post.
The day ends within approximately 1hr 50 minutes.
"If watching the MSL finals makes you a progamer, then anyone in Korea can do it." - Ha Tae Ki
chaos13
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada885 Posts
August 25 2011 13:07 GMT
#260
[QUOTE]On August 25 2011 21:36 tnkted wrote:
I have to change my play or something, I'm suspected of being scum d1 virtually every game I play as town.

[QUOTE]On August 25 2011 12:07 chaos13 wrote:
tnkted

[QUOTE]On August 24 2011 00:57 tnkted wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 24 2011 00:55 Palmar wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 24 2011 00:46 tnkted wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 24 2011 00:29 Palmar wrote:
I have discarded my win condition, my sole object this game will be to convince Jackal I'm town, seeing as it's a feat I've never achieved.[/QUOTE]

Oh!? You have a win condition other than winning with town?[/QUOTE]

derp.
[/QUOTE]

lololo

#vote palmar[/QUOTE]


To begin with, we have him attacking an apparent scum slip by Palmar. Anyone with eyes can see that his slip was intended as a joke post, but apparently that's worth a vote.

This was a joke pressure anyway, to which palmar responded scummilly.

[/QUOTE]

This is pretty much where we can stop. It's joke pressure, meaning you really didn't think what Palmar said was serious, which means you really didn't think it was a genuine slip. But...you're still using it as evidence that Palmar is scum.
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