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On February 19 2011 03:39 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:22 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 03:19 GinDo wrote:On February 18 2011 03:04 infinity21 wrote:On February 17 2011 10:34 link0 wrote:
Mech sucks, as shown by Goody's valient attempts.
From my own personaly experiments at 3500 Masters level, you can usually beat a 200 Toss army with a 200 Mech army if you get off some good EMPS and have good seige positioning.
HOWEVER, your surviving army won't be able to hold off the 20 zealots that warp in instantly. The toss then pushes right back at you because Mech takes FOREVER to rebuild.
I believe the only good answer is early/midgame pressure with biomech and keeping up with +attack upgrades. Goody plays a specific style of mech which makes him very predictable andbeatable. Also, mech isn't making pure tanks. The other two factory units do just fine vs zealots. TY. People expect to win with just tanks. Just because you can win with Pure Mawader doesn;t mean the same with Tanks. You need Hellions(LOTS OF THEM), and Vikings. Your Vikings FORCE heavy ground. So then you land your vikings. A unit is a unit and the more fodder you have the less you have to worry about your tanks dieing. Thors are ok but their role is only necessary against Heavy phoenix play. In Mech you also have to harass. In Bio you don't have to because your aggressively attacking which is sorta like harassing. Harassing just takes more micro and strategy. Mech is hard. In BW Terran was considered non-noobie friendly simply because Noob Terran couldn't TvP Mech. Same here Mech is hard. Bio is easier. Essentially your trading difficulty for a better L8 game. And for those saying Protoss can simply out mass you with gateway units. Make more hellions. And harass the !@#$ out of them. If a hellion kills 2 probes you just got your money back and more. And when was the last time you killed less then 10 probes during a BlueHellion attack? Note: If your harassing with Hellions keeps toss pinned. Throw 1-2 banshees to be annoying and all of the sudden toss has to make tons of Obs. Harass doesn't mean you have to kill probes. Forcing them to make more obs and cannons is damage enough. Yeah I'm not getting this whole "wow Protoss can make troops faster than me" when that was the case in BW also; it's just that overall P's Gateway army is ALOT weaker; their tech switches are what kill you in SC2 (good Colossai control can really wreck Mech play, same with good VR usage). simply not true. Ps gateway army isnt weaker. the reason why this is very different from broodwar is cause tvp you had a VERY powerful combination with vultures/mines/tanks. 2of those 3 dont exist anymore and the 3rd is worse then it was for various reasons. stuff like easy to get powerful air, the immortal or the lol-easymode-supermobilereaver,the collosus just adds to it but isnt the reason for it
If you're trying to say Zealot/Stalker is stronger than Zealot/Goon you are shitting me. Archons which also came out of the Gateway are better, and the SC1 Storm is alot stronger in a head on fight than SC2 storm (SC2 storm is stronger in that Amulet allows you to respond instantly and mass Storm easier).
Helions are stronger vs a weaker Zealot, thus negating the mass Zealot/Immortal theorycraft people try to throw out. Where mech is weak is in mobility, but you have to abuse your Helion mobility advantage as an above poster stated backstabbing and constantly harassing and denying expansions.
It's the air switch that you have to be really careful with; but it was really the same way in BW also, so I'm not really seeing that big of a difference. I think that people just want free wins, rather than trying to adapt and change; P and Z players had to RADICALLY alter their styles of play since the beginning of the beta; T has had the luxury of playing Bio the ENTIRE way due to the early game strength of MMM.
I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing; in fact I put it on Blizzard for making Bio so attractive in the first place. Mech is just a style that requires alot more precision and alot less room for error; you cannot afford to trade armies like you can with Bio, and as such you have to play more for late game and have to be really on top of your macro.
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On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines?
http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replay
Heres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet.
All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it  )
I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm.
Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway)
To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can)
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 19 2011 04:29 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking??? Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. This is what you get when people from bronzeleague can discuss too, seriously men, don't be so agressive! Read what I wrote above: For all the mech suggestors: mech does NOT work, not because of zealots, not because of HT's, but because it's too immobile and because stalker + collossus combo will destroy you. Blink (stalkers) + cliffwalk (collossae) is so mobile that it's VERY hard to beat it. Imagine that you have to move your tanks to your main. By the time they are there, toss has picked of some buildings and can retreat. Then you need to go back to defend the other expansions. When you send 60% of your tanks, they will die (since tanks are only effective in large numbers, as stated above). So: 1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat 2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks) 3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo. Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech. Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. I will give you 1 guess: he will blink and walk into your main and you will have to bring all your tanks to there (up the ramp, jep). Then he will retreat. If you bring only 50%, he will kill that. He will also delay every 4th base. While you are running to your main and back to your other bases, he will take the whole map and there is 0 you can do.
You should try positioning your army properly and figure out where his army is. Stalker/colo such a weak composition vs mass tanks...
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On February 19 2011 04:29 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? Dude really?? Stalker vs tank collsus vs viking??? Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. This is what you get when people from bronzeleague can discuss too, seriously men, don't be so agressive! Read what I wrote above: For all the mech suggestors: mech does NOT work, not because of zealots, not because of HT's, but because it's too immobile and because stalker + collossus combo will destroy you. Blink (stalkers) + cliffwalk (collossae) is so mobile that it's VERY hard to beat it. Imagine that you have to move your tanks to your main. By the time they are there, toss has picked of some buildings and can retreat. Then you need to go back to defend the other expansions. When you send 60% of your tanks, they will die (since tanks are only effective in large numbers, as stated above). So: 1) you move all your tanks to your main: toss will retreat 2) you move 60% to your main: toss will kill it (believe me, blinkstalker and collossae are awesome against tanks) 3) you will have a hard time to defend more then 3 expansions. A 200/200 collo + stalker army is only beatable when you have enough tanks. Unless the protoss 1a's into your tank line, you will never be able to siege all your tanks against that combo. Another problem is air: you need vikings (since rines are bad lategame) and vikings = less tanks. Goliaths would be perfect since they are decent on the ground too. Thors are not good since they cost 6 (!) supply, which is too much if you go pure mech. Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:27 XXXSmOke wrote:
Il give you 3 guesses whats gona happen given that your well positioned and spread out. I will give you 1 guess: he will blink and walk into your main and you will have to bring all your tanks to there (up the ramp, jep). Then he will retreat. If you bring only 50%, he will kill that. He will also delay every 4th base. While you are running to your main and back to your other bases, he will take the whole map and there is 0 you can do.
2800 masters, thanks
So your gona say the same thing again.....
So il do the same
Tanks>>> Stalks Vikings>>> collsi key word is WELL Spread out, now Im not going to let you blink walk into my base. The second I crush your army which will be very easy thanks to my units already hard countering yours, I will setup a contain and you will be done. I use sensor towers when I play mech so no you will not surprise me.
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On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines?
I think you are a bit obsessed with this Stalker/Colossus clift action.. There are few replays where Terran loses to this and thats it. You seem to make big statements like "Mech doesn't work" with no serious background for your arguments. Can you actually throw at me something more then "200/200 stalker/colossus will kill you"? Those things you suggest like Immortal timing push, cannons at mineral lines etc.. Those are pretty standard strategies that occures no matter what you play mech or bio and can be adressed - not a big deal. I dont want to have an argument with you, but please - try to be more constructive..
edit: as XXXSmOke stated - well placed Sensor Tower or two are enough if you fear Colossus blink action that much. Also, its not hard to say Toss is trying to abuse some blink action since you will see mainly Stalkers and Colossus. Not to mention this won't work on all maps..
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On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can)
Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage).
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Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up.
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On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up.
We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning.
Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either.
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On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage).
the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) )
Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc.
Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN))
Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway)
Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation.
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With mech you can also snipe Templars easy with Helions if they are careless with them.
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On February 19 2011 05:09 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up. We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning. Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either.
Look, you're not going to get the same amount of gas and the same amount of minerals. There's 12k minerals and only 5k gas at every resource node (except for the 9k gold patches). The problem is that Protoss can have high hp, multipurpose units like stalkers, which basically mirror the 12k min 5k gas macro-cost while terran units are low hp in general.
You can't go off 3 bases and only build mech. Terran mech can't act as the main army. They're force multipliers. But protoss have a main army that's very durable and also have micro-friendly force multiplier units.
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The main issue with lategame TvP is warpgates. Trade armies fairly even, but then rapelots and HT's gets warped in and kills any leftover. Add Amulet, and you are bound to loose.
Imho, it should be T who should have warpgate-like tech on rax units, not P.
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Obviously bio-mech is the way to go in the late game. Without thors and helions you cant fight protoss on 4+ bases. I was doing this strat for a long time it it works well
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On February 19 2011 05:13 KaiserJohan wrote:
The main issue with lategame TvP is warpgates. Trade armies fairly even, but then rapelots and HT's gets warped in and kills any leftover. Add Amulet, and you are bound to loose.
Imho, it should be T who should have warpgate-like tech on rax units, not P.
Anytime you kill a protoss army as terran and have any units left over you need to be rallying hellions in out of your 6-8 factories. They build quite fast and youd be surprised how many gateway units 5 hurt tanks, a hurt thor, and rallied hellions can kill.
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On February 19 2011 05:13 rapier7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:09 Everlong wrote:On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up. We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning. Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either. Look, you're not going to get the same amount of gas and the same amount of minerals. There's 12k minerals and only 5k gas at every resource node (except for the 9k gold patches). The problem is that Protoss can have high hp, multipurpose units like stalkers, which basically mirror the 12k min 5k gas macro-cost while terran units are low hp in general. You can't go off 3 bases and only build mech. Terran mech can't act as the main army. They're force multipliers. But protoss have a main army that's very durable and also have micro-friendly force multiplier units.
Have you seen replays from Sadist? Or from Goody for example? As I don't think you can say "mech can't act as the main army".. Mech isn't that hard to micro either. You only need to siege in time and secure a good position. You dont need to kite, stim, drop, dance around. You dont care about forcefields and HTs, etc.. Its a way that is currently being refined in SC2, so I think there are lots of improvements coming.. For example Sensor Towers, very underused - you need them playing mech as its one of the way how you can at least somehow make up for your mobility issues.
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On February 19 2011 05:13 rapier7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:09 Everlong wrote:On February 19 2011 05:03 rapier7 wrote:
Well it's not the stalker/colossi mob that's troublesome for terran. You can get marauders and vikings to deal with that. It's high templar that just absolutely rip up terran balls that's the big problem.
The problem with late game TvP is that terran gas intensive units are fragile while their bread and butter infantry also don't have much HP and tend to clump up. We are talking about mech here.. Mech doesn't die to strom as opposed to bio, which is the reason people are trying mech. So I dont get your reasoning. Also we are talking about late game, which goes hand in hand with both players having more bases. So I dont get your argument about gas issues either. Look, you're not going to get the same amount of gas and the same amount of minerals. There's 12k minerals and only 5k gas at every resource node (except for the 9k gold patches). The problem is that Protoss can have high hp, multipurpose units like stalkers, which basically mirror the 12k min 5k gas macro-cost while terran units are low hp in general. You can't go off 3 bases and only build mech. Terran mech can't act as the main army. They're force multipliers. But protoss have a main army that's very durable and also have micro-friendly force multiplier units.
Watch Sadist vs OptikZero, Optik is using Stalker/Immortal/DT/Zeal/Colossai and tries to harass and still gets pummeled despite a huge early game lead from a good VR push.
I think the thing people tend to forget is that the Tanks take care of the Anti-Helion units like Colossai/Templar storm and stuff like that, but Helion en masse will beat Gateway units cleanly.
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On February 19 2011 05:09 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage). the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) ) Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc. Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN)) Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway) Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation.
Totally agree.
I also dont have a solid BO yet, Im messing with a 2 fact expo as of right now. What are you using?
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On February 19 2011 05:30 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:09 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage). the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) ) Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc. Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN)) Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway) Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation. Totally agree. I also dont have a solid BO yet, Im messing with a 2 fact expo as of right now. What are you using?
1 rax marauder expand and then make a factory and marines turrets etc
http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replay are replays of me doing it
It definitely can be refined to be even more safe (say add a 2nd rax for marines earlier or something)
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I'm only Diamond and have only just switched to Terran, but TvP is already my favourite matchup. I don't know if mech builds are viable, because my opponents and I are bad at macro and use subpar builds and all that stuff, but a 200/200 mech army can and will destroy a 200/200 Protoss army. The ideal composition, from my experience, is hellion/thor/tank/viking with a couple of ghosts mixed in. Yes it's tricky, and no you can't win through a-moving, but if you do it right you can beat the dreaded chargelot/immortal combo pretty easily.
One very important thing is to use your mineral sinks wisely. You have a few choices:
- Marines. Not usually that useful, but if your opponent goes for some chargelot/immortal/void composition to counter your mech they can work.
- Hellions. Fantastic at shoring up the holes in your mech composition. I've not tried using them against immortal shields, but if it does work as well as people are saying then they're just a fantastic all-round unit that can also devastate expansions. Even if the Protoss throws a couple of cannons down, it's worth losing a few hellions to wipe out every worker in an expo.
- Mass orbitals. Once you get enough of them you can have your true max army, which will destroy a 140-ish supply Protoss maxed army. However, and this is pure theorycraft, on larger maps such as Tal'darim mass orbitals may allow you to have the exact same number of SCVs as normal, but simply have every single one of them on gas. With 60 or so workers mining gas and a constant rain of MULEs you can just fill the map with production facilities and do constant remaxing that would make a Zerg jealous.
- Scan like crazy. Since minerals aren't as important, you can always just swap out your MULEs for maphacks.
Now, the actual battles. Basically, you want to have your tanks at the back. That's the most important thing. They have crazy long range and are vulnerable, so you just need something else to, ummm, tank for them. So many people are saying that tanks are bad because chargelots can just run in and kill them, but if there's a line of thors and hellions in front? A-moved chargelots will waste their charge running into them, then get roasted by the hellions. If the Protoss manually orders them to charge to the tanks, they won't get their speed boost until they've walked past your hellions, and will therefore be clumped up that whole time and be ripped apart by your tanks and blueflames. This also helps against storms - thors aren't overly bothered by them, hellions can quickly micro out and the tanks are too far away for the HT to hit them.
As far as immortals go, strike cannons are useful early game, but later on they become meh. At that point your thors can die before they've even finished the warmup animation, so there's not really much point. Instead, just use EMPs. If you can knock the shields off the immortals they will be instantly torn apart by your tanks. EMPs also help immensely against everything else. It's hard to overstate the effectiveness of an ability that cuts half the health off everything in an area.
Then we have the collosus and voids. They're pretty nasty, but vikings work pretty damn well against both of them. They aren't all that useful against the ground army, but 1) your mech can beat a Protoss ground army, so encouraging them to go pure ground is good and 2) you can land them. They aren't exactly cost-effective when landed, but they still help, plus in sufficient numbers they can destroy expos pretty damn quickly. I'm too lazy to go back through the thread and find out who it was, but someone said that the Protoss can techswitch very quickly late game by just throwing down 4 stargates and boosting out 8 voids. Well, by the time they can do that you can already have built around 5 reactored starports. The handful of vikings you should be making blindly, if only to discourage air transitions, should help hold them off while you quickly amass a proper air force.
Dente's argument that stalker-collosus beats mech is pretty much completely wrong; with sensor towers they can't do any tricksy outmaneuvering shenanigans and with thors, vikings and tanks you'll easily win if it comes down to a fight.
In the long run, Terran is going to need to go mech in order to beat Protoss. Once the Protoss players fully figure out the timings and learn how to beat early Terran aggression, which is already happening, rushes just won't work, and trying to use a pure tier 1 army against a maxed Protoss deathball with fully upgraded tier 3 is just silly. Maybe mech will need some sort of buffs/new expansion units to be viable, maybe it won't, but it is the future and people need to start trying it out or switch races, because pure bio won't work forever.
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On February 19 2011 05:31 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:30 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 19 2011 05:09 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 05:02 superstartran wrote:On February 19 2011 04:34 Sadist wrote:On February 19 2011 04:22 Dente wrote:On February 19 2011 04:13 Sadist wrote:
If you play it right (IE constantly harassing and making an adequate number of hellions, mech is great)
The key to mech is definitely hellions. They are essentially free when going mech (as a mineral dump) and they basically piss on gateway units with tank/thor support and absolutely destroy immortals as well. You just need to be careful around Colossus and the occasional high templar (although mech > templar anyway so its not that big of a deal)
Hellions used properly (combined with medivacs for dual pronged harassment options) not only kill millions of probes and keep the Protoss defensive they give you amazing scouting opportunities. Mech is just about using your hellion info and not letting a protoss army composition surprise you while always having enough hellions at all times to fend off their attack.
If they add a few colossus, just make some vikings out of your starport and target with tanks, if they are going voids (if it isnt a ton) do the same and the thor support will beat the voids.
I wouldnt even advocate a transition if thats what you are asking, just go mech, bio dies too easily to a ton of stuff where ass well positioned siege tanks a bunker or 2 and a few turrets negate any early aggression past a certain point (combined with hellions, if they attack you->instant backstab and their attack becomes an all in since you absolutely decimate their economy.
People are going to get better playing against it for sure and starting bringing things over from BW such as pylon blocks and better "sim city" and the like but for now keep at it and just use your scouting info and make the correct units accordingly.
3600 masters terran. Litteraly the only matchup I win consistantly on ladder nowadays is TvP and thats due to mech. Im probably like 35+ wins with 10 losses max (and almost all of them are screwups on my part). Ive only lost maybe 2-3 games with mech where I played well and Id consider what the person did a viable non all in counter And what do you do against a 200/200 army of stalker + collo? How do you expand when he contains you with immortals? Do you open bio first? What do you do against a strong timingpush with immortals? What do you do if the toss actually makes cannons @ his mineral lines? http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replayHeres some of my replays, I have some I played today too but I cant upload them because they havent accepted any yet. All those are mech replays vs P (not the 2 losses vs DarkCell, god damn tvz and him being good at it ) I was tempted to make a guide on mech but have been kinda advised not to. My build has some weaknesses early game which can definately be refined and sured up. Vs common Protoss builds this works like a charm. Tank thor hellion and viking beats a stalker colossus army (who goes 200/200 stalker colossus vs mech anyway) To beat colossus you need to target them manually with your tanks or they will own you (also spread out tanks a bit if you can) Hey man, I really enjoyed watching your mech replays (just kinda sped through the one against zero and antimage). What I want to know is how you deal with VR / Carrier tech switch? How does your Mech army fair vs Immortal/HT/Archon (since they are gonna make HT, gonna make Archons to soak up damage). the VR/Carrier switch is scouted by the hellions constantly moving around the map (maybe an odd scan) and medivacs. You get to see how many units they have and due to hellions speed you can poke in quite far and still get away (even vs blink stalker, although 20 blinking at one time would obviously be a deterrent =) ) Immortal HT Archon is just mass hellion again with tank support, seriously 20 hellions absolutely rape shit if its clumped (combined with tank support) + vs an army like that you can poke in with hellions and kill templars go for probes etc. Hellions are actually better than vultures scale wise in this game (at least vs protoss) Because cannons essentially dont matter and the splash guarantees you will RAPE probes (you dont need to indivudually target like in bw) Mass hellion destroys mass gateway units much better than mass vulture does (without mines of course, mines on hellions would be HEAVEN)) Anytype of carrier switch generally should be scouted. Ive watched a lot of mech replays where the terrans sit on their ass and make way too many tanks and yes the switch is scary then. But when going mech Hellions are basically free and nothing besides blink stalkers can catch them so you are basically free to run around. ToD tried to go carrier vs me and it was scouted and easily stopped (granted I had a lead that game anyway) Mech is definately viable and better than bio imo, I dont have a perfect build order or anything but I feel like its a pretty good foundation. Totally agree. I also dont have a solid BO yet, Im messing with a 2 fact expo as of right now. What are you using? 1 rax marauder expand and then make a factory and marines turrets etc http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/101333-tqsadist#replay are replays of me doing it It definitely can be refined to be even more safe (say add a 2nd rax for marines earlier or something)
Cool, il check it out when I can. Il be posting some of my 2 fact replays as well.
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EPT
