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United States24805 Posts
On December 19 2009 01:53 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 13:17 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 13:13 MageKirby wrote:On December 18 2009 13:00 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:52 Shikyo wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:36 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished. Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is? The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison. Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house. Common sense seems to be a mystery to some. Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right. It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse. On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning. When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106924you mean something on this line? or something more specific More specific. What is the extent of the punishment? But yes it's good that they did that and I agree with it. This is absurd. You want it so potential abusers can decide whether or not the punishment is worth taking the risk of being caught? Fuck that.
How is it absurd to tell the players that abusers will be banned from tl, other sites, etc?
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If I was lifetime banned I guess I would just smurf....
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It's not absurd I don't think anyone argues that more information is a not good thing. It's better to inform than not to, you're right about that. We have said and stated that it could result in bans to future tournaments so we're not doing anything we didn't inform people of already. Regardless whether people are informed on specifics or or not; abuse should always be dealt with in a strong manner and should be expected as such.
We could have done a better job informing people of these statements and will do so with future TSL's. We are by no means running a perfect tournament but I do not think this is an issue that should be made such a big deal out of.
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On December 18 2009 22:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 22:49 Welmu wrote:
I think that banning is unfair, because I am sure that there were abusers outside top48, too... And they don't get any punishement. :/ Half the abusers we caught were outside of the top 48 when we started our checks. A few remained outside of it even after we removed the 15 in front of them. HappyZerg and Juachi never made it to top 48 despite all the disqualifications, and Scan, Juanjo, Mercury were outside of top 48 before we started checking. Even if we would catch zero players outside of top 48 your statement still makes no sense. You can't find every car thief on the planet does that mean you shouldn't do anything about the ones that you do catch.
Okey good that you dudes caught people outside top48, too.  . Well you are maybe right about that you can't find every car thief... It is still pretty unfair, but when I was thought this thing more deeply, I realized that everything can't be in balance. (Sorry bad english)
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I think it is good, because they abused and put a few players down in the list in a 20k prize tournament. This is very serious.
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silence you babies! you should never cheat, ever! not on bnet, not on iccup, not in your home LAN games, not even on your math test! get a life and let those of us who care about true competition and sportsmanship enjoy it!
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A complete lock-out from the SC community would be out of line in my opinion. This because people grow (in age and in the head), and because SC2 is coming which should mean a blank slate for some, if not the worst. A year, maybe a year and a half ban sounds reasonable.
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Well the arguments here makes sense, but justice is not all about sense.
For instance, some people compare cheating to criminal activity - ban = go to jail.
However were the people involved in this case able to go through trail to properly investigate each case?
Sure there maybe have not been enough time, but then it means accused = guilty.
I just have one player in my mind - "Reason". Well this player seemed to have released his replay pack with the replays of his alter account "Hiroshima". So it would be so evident that both of this accounts actually belong to him. So isn't it possible that this retired player who tried to participate in this tourney didn't have the intention to cheat?
Side facts : he was in top 20 with a very high win ratio and judging from the ban report didn't transfer points.
I think there is a reason why in the current society warning or lesser punishments can be given first when the outlawed activity is not severe or repetitive.
I would like to end my post with something that is well known on this forum a Latin phrase - actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind be also guilty".
Note : I have never talked with this player nor do I know him personally.
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On December 18 2009 12:36 Shikyo wrote: However, if that man murdered someone and then immediately called the police and turned himself in before the investigation had even started and said that he regretted it and such... He most likely would get a sentence of like 8-10 years for causing a death.
This just isn't true. Murder in the first and third degree are both capital offenses, minimum sentence is life in prison. A murderer is "better off" pleading not guilty and hoping to plea down in degree to manslaughter.
Further, this analogy sucks because criminal courts require a higher level of certainty than is required in this matter. Cheating in a money tournament is not criminal, regardless of how much posters more experienced and wiser than me claim that it is theft. But this also means that the accused don't have the same protections a criminal would (not that any of these guys are innocent).
The tournament organizers enter into a de facto contract with the tournament participants, and the violation here is breach of contract. If you were TL.net, how long would you want to wait before entering another contract with someone like that?
(edit)
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Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable.
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I can't believe some of you are so tolerate of the abusers/cheating. The other game i play (quake 3/quake live) if you get caught cheating, its a perm ban forever. Good luck trying to rejoin the community.
The starcraft community has been far too soft on cheaters imo.
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On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote:
Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable.
People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults.
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I hope the cheaters will receive the same punishments than the cheaters in TSL1 otherwise it would be unfair.
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On December 19 2009 04:03 iG.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote:
Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable. People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults.
I strongly disagree that 'people who think like me ruin the community'. This is discussion how to improve the community.
I did not suggest what a reasonable punishment would be. A lifetime ban suggested several times in this thread is not reasonable punishment. Also one cannot compare this situation to sports where the punishments are clear from the start. Thus it might be a good idea to write down rules, which would be followed also in the future events.
And I do think the punishments should be the same for everyone whatever their age was.
(Edit: Clarified the first sentence so it would be understood correctly. Punishments must feel like punishments but still be fair)
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On December 19 2009 04:03 iG.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote:
Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable. People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults.
well said 100% agree ~
most games would not deal with such abuse over and over.. sc community acts as if it wants it back over and over.. cheating is cheating.. i cant fathom how people of team liquid can be like "oh lastshadow abused, free win, rigged maps.. in practice games/tournaments.. lets not allow him to be a part of anything.." yet when its f91 dimaga reason ect.. ppl try and justify it.. when ITS THE SAME THING.. and actually even worse.. becasue this was a over 20k$ tournament.. not a practice game..
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Lifetime bans are absolutely ridiculous and should be given next to never, I support the gosugamer's 6 month ban. Seems fair.
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On December 19 2009 04:28 Zurles wrote:
Lifetime bans are absolutely ridiculous and should be given next to never, I support the gosugamer's 6 month ban. Seems fair.
to low
lifetime ban for hackers
for abusing it should be like 1-2 years minimum ^^ (perjaps less for happy and frear who only helped dimaga so 1year for them 2years for others)
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How can you lifeban those guys ?
I mean TT1 got caught using maphack like 3 times ( ?? ) and he was banned less than one year the last time he got caught lol whereas maphacking is way worse than abusing 100 pts.
I don't care if it is a 20k event or not when you use drugs they don't ban you for a longer period if it is a World Cup or Romania rugby league division 4.
Anyway the cheaters and the abusers in TSL 1 weren't lifebanned and it was also an event with a big prize money.
P-S: I don't hate TT1 and i understand that now he has learned the lesson and is a nice guy streaming and providing replay packs which is something really cool because only few good players do that, but i wanted to say that people shouldn't get lifeban because it means that he should have been life banned for three lifes already and if he is still playing and "clean" it is because people can forgive.
I don't think banning them for more than one year would be a wise and fair decision. Actually it would be double standards.
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Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try.
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EPT
