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Russian Federation1893 Posts
On December 18 2009 19:50 Oxygen wrote: does Team Liquid have the legal right to sue over abuse? i.e. can they demand penalty fines? Kinda violating UDHR 10/12/48 ? ^^
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On December 18 2009 20:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 18:31 Lord_of_Chaos wrote:
Also, if they ever get caught for anything again, it's a life time ban. That means no DreamHack, no replay uploads, wait so if i get caught cheating you wont post any more replays of me? hey guys i gave ret a freewin that last game never change haha
I think people even arguing that the punishment is too harsh is the exact reason why the punishments need to become harsher. It just shows how many people view cheating/abusing in bw and its excatly why people keep on cheating. Like that stylish incident he acted like he didnt even do anything wrong. Of course what he did wasnt as bad as what people did in tsl but it was still lying to the people who follow his vods/threads. You never see people admit that they cheated. Its always they get caught and then they admit to it and its always the same excuses. I didnt have enough time, it was just a few points, why are you getting so upset, people dodge me, etc.
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On December 18 2009 08:35 aeroH wrote: if it's anything less than what clazz got then i'll be disappointed. cheating in a big money tournament oh yeah i forgot about clazzi
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Russian Federation1893 Posts
On December 18 2009 20:57 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I think people even arguing that the punishment is too harsh is the exact reason why the punishments need to become harsher. It just shows how many people view cheating/abusing in bw and its excatly why people keep on cheating. Like that stylish incident he acted like he didnt even do anything wrong. Of course what he did wasnt as bad as what people did in tsl but it was still lying to the people who follow his vods/threads. You never see people admit that they cheated. Its always they get caught and then they admit to it and its always the same excuses. I didnt have enough time, it was just a few points, why are you getting so upset, people dodge me, etc. Maphack and playing with teammates is different. So the punishment should be different. Execution for "pointing" in ladder and wait... double execution for maphack?
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United Kingdom1666 Posts
On December 18 2009 20:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 18:31 Lord_of_Chaos wrote:
Also, if they ever get caught for anything again, it's a life time ban. That means no DreamHack, no replay uploads, wait so if i get caught cheating you wont post any more replays of me? hey guys i gave ret a freewin that last game
Lol I have to admit I like Idra more and more.
GJ on the punishments, let's hope we see equally, or more serious action from TL. It's an insult to the organisers, the other ladder players, and all us honest players out there who would never dream of doing this.
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I think that banning is unfair, because I am sure that there were abusers outside top48, too... And they don't get any punishement. :/
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On December 18 2009 22:49 Welmu wrote: I think that banning is unfair, because I am sure that there were abusers outside top48, too... And they don't get any punishement. :/
the punishment is they abused and wasted their time for no reason
plus they suck
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On December 18 2009 22:49 Welmu wrote: I think that banning is unfair, because I am sure that there were abusers outside top48, too... And they don't get any punishement. :/ Half the abusers we caught were outside of the top 48 when we started our checks. A few remained outside of it even after we removed the 15 in front of them. HappyZerg and Juachi never made it to top 48 despite all the disqualifications, and Scan, Juanjo, Mercury were outside of top 48 before we started checking.
Even if we would catch zero players outside of top 48 your statement still makes no sense. You can't find every car thief on the planet does that mean you shouldn't do anything about the ones that you do catch.
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I really think that guys that is doing this shit, ruin awesome tournaments in a already small community deserves lifeban from all that have to do with it.
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Why are some people so nice to F91?
He's one of the most talented and skilled players outside Korea. He doesn't too much effort to qualify and when it fails he just abuses- totally unacceptable. I could understand (understand NOT justify) someone who's bad and abuses to be up there...
And for people who defend him because he admitted it- you are wrong as one can be. He denied it as long as possible. Read the ladder thread where ret accused him of abusing. Ash asked F91 and he at first denied it only after he was actually caught did he admit anything and that of course is meaningless.
IdrA's such a chill and witty guy.
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its so unbelievable witty and chilled that you flame and blame and write stupid shit in at least half of your games that u lose..
I wholehearted agree with your last statement..
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idra is using this abusers to become popular! and he is doing it well :D buuuuut!!! (!!!), it's truth he gave ret a freewin coz if you look a replay you'll see that ret never attacked idra so he couldn't win unless idra wanted that :D
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Haha Idra > all. Seriously, how can you not like the guy even if you don't agree with him? :D
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In the "[TSL] Casters, Maps and Format"-thread, posted one month ago:
On November 18 2009 11:37 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2009 10:56 Zhyan wrote:On November 18 2009 00:53 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 17 2009 10:18 Zhyan wrote:On November 17 2009 08:08 Hot_Bid wrote:On November 17 2009 06:50 OppositeSavior wrote: So anyone can play in TSL just make an account with TSL tag and start playing the 21st? Yes, provided you do not have a Chinese or Korean IP. So isn't ret and Idra allow to play? I suspect they have a Korean IP. And how do you judge whether a player is playing with a Chinese or Korean IP when he is playing the ladder? We will know because his IP address will be Korean or Chinese. Well, I know it sounds stupid, but can you please explain explicitly about this IP issue? For example, If i am playing with an USA IP for most of the games, and then play with a Chinese/Korean IP for one or several games, would you know that? And would you punish that? All ladder games must be played from non-Korean, non-Chinese IPs. In your hypothetical, are you saying you plan to play most of the games from the United States then fly to China and play one game? I suspect this issue affects very few people. As for our ability to detect IPs, I'm obviously not going to tell you explicitly how we track it or how evade it (if evading us is even possible). For 99.99% of cases, we will know if you play even one or two games from inside Korea or China, and any account that does this (without us giving the player an exception) will be disqualified. This DQ will very likely happen at the end of the ladder, so there won't be time to play another account to qualify (if that is the goal). If multiple accounts are used in this way, we will know by cross-checking IPs. Also, all accounts with games played sharing IPs (for instance, if your A+ friend logs in and plays games for you) can and will be found out by us too. Add to this the rule that you must give all ladder replays to us (for hotkey matching), and its going to be very, very difficult to abuse. Basically, don't try to abuse or game the system, because we will find out and you will be punished -- harshly. This is very likely not the last TSL, and abuse in one will likely result in a lifetime ban from all future TL events.
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On December 18 2009 22:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Even if we would catch zero players outside of top 48 your statement still makes no sense. You can't find every car thief on the planet does that mean you shouldn't do anything about the ones that you do catch.
of course not, it'd be so unfair!! besides, some of those thieves had cars anyway, so they wouldn't have needed the ones they stole.
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Despite all the arguments anyone can come up with, people who abused in this tournament deserve anything and everything that TL throws at them.
There are some very silly discussions over making punishments known beforehand. Whether or not this was done 'properly' is of no consequence. Anyone who is going to abuse in the biggest SC tournament outside of Korea to EVER TAKE PLACE - with its huge-ass prize pool, its array of dedicated volunteers, and all the work that has been put into it - should know better purely from common sense. If you mess with such a thing, you are disturbing the mountain that is the foreigner scene. Punishment is strongly implied.
The argument that not making punishment known beforehand has ruined the prestige of this tournament is ridiculous. If anything has 'ruined' the prestige of this tournament, it's the abusers themselves. No one at TL, no one involved in the TSL2 is to blame for their actions.
Anyway, like Manifesto said, the abusers will not scar this tournament. The tournament will scar them.
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On December 18 2009 12:50 JoMal wrote: I agree that the abusers should be banned severly but i understand what micronesia is saying by an upfront warning. Players would be less likely to abuse if they know the potential consequences of their actions, if they still do .. by all means permanent ban them. So they will abuse in the next tournament where there will be less chance they will get caught? This is the way it should have been and I'm glad it played out like that. F91 should have the same punishment as the rest. He should be punished by hes team as well.
edit: TL did put a lot of effort to make this tournament happen and found a lot of money for the prize pool and ofter some players pissed on TL's face there are still some idiots that say TL does not have the right to ban them from THEIR OWN future tournaments.
My idea is the same as in many other sports: 2 year ban for first offence ant life time ban for 2nd
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On December 18 2009 13:17 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 13:13 MageKirby wrote:On December 18 2009 13:00 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:52 Shikyo wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:36 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished. Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is? The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison. Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house. Common sense seems to be a mystery to some. Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right. It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse. On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote: The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning. When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106924you mean something on this line? or something more specific More specific. What is the extent of the punishment? But yes it's good that they did that and I agree with it. This is absurd. You want it so potential abusers can decide whether or not the punishment is worth taking the risk of being caught? Fuck that.
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This is probably a perfect ban. I agree that if you want a sport to be taken seriously, you need to disallow all forms of cheating. I'd even go a step further, and on a 2nd or 3rd cheat ban them permanently from all events.
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