15 players were caught and disqualified for abuse in the TSL ladder stage. Some of these were big, respected and known names. This is unacceptable, and GosuGamers bans them all for six months from all our events and rankings.
Some people will think this is too harsh, some will think it is too lenient. But this is the decision GosuGamers staff has come to.
I think this is great and i really thank GosuGamers for supporting us in punishing abusers. We'll be releasing our own list of punishments in the next few days.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Kennigit wrote: I think this is great and i really thank GosuGamers for supporting us in punishing abusers. We'll be releasing our own list of punishments in the next few days.
Just when I thought the drama was settling down. Damn the repercussions seem to get worse for cheaters. Still looking forward to TSL2 because the first one was sooooooooo sick =]
On December 18 2009 07:34 Kennigit wrote: I think this is great and i really thank GosuGamers for supporting us in punishing abusers. We'll be releasing our own list of punishments in the next few days.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Kennigit wrote: I think this is great and i really thank GosuGamers for supporting us in punishing abusers. We'll be releasing our own list of punishments in the next few days.
What kind of punishments can we expect from TL? Will they be along the same lines or harsher?
Really like this as well. Well done ggnet. Can't wait to see this tlnet punishment. I don't feel bad for them at all... i just really wanted some of those guys to not have done it in the first place:\
I'm glad gg.net is doing their part, even if it is only 6 months. Anyone who tries to justify the cheating and abuse should step back and remember that this isn't just a regular tournament, this shit has over 20k in cash prizes involved. There's no way they SHOULDN'T be punished.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Kennigit wrote: I think this is great and i really thank GosuGamers for supporting us in punishing abusers. We'll be releasing our own list of punishments in the next few days.
w00t, isnt this over?
No.
Does this just mean further punishment for the culprits that have already been caught or even more and new cases ( maybe out of the top 48 ) ect.. ?
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
So I guess life time ban from any teamliquid event ? O_O
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
So I guess life time ban from any teamliquid event ? O_O
I reading this as suggestion towards hacking and the sort.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Kennigit wrote: I think this is great and i really thank GosuGamers for supporting us in punishing abusers. We'll be releasing our own list of punishments in the next few days.
w00t, isnt this over?
No.
Oh damn.
And I applaud GosuGamers for this. The amount of abusers was pretty much a disgrace, and if we ever want to be taken seriously in any respect, we can't let abusers get away with it.
I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
This seems more than just a punishment beyond DQ. As in; new information that make the previous abuse look like stealing pennies from the 'take a penny, leave a penny' dish.
By the way, you know that my friend is doing a sociology study on how TL is "self-governing" through the mechanism of bans, DQs, and the like. This shit is fascinating, you guys are making academic history.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
Wow, goooooood. Here I was thinking that there would not be any punishments for the people who got caught. Good to hear that there will be consequences.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
Why didn't you announce it before the ladder?!? Maybe these highly skilled players wouldn't have abused if they knew the full extent of the punishment.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
Why didn't you announce it before the ladder?!? Maybe these highly skilled players wouldn't have abused if they knew the full extent of the punishment.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
Why didn't you announce it before the ladder?!? Maybe these highly skilled players wouldn't have abused if they knew the full extent of the punishment.
I think the bans are absolutely pointless. Why ban them when all the abusers who didn't even get a look over because they didn't make it into the top 48 get a pass? Either hate cheaters enough to find them all and punish them all, or don't punish any of them.
This is my plea to get all the cheaters punished, I really don't want to see tommorow that they've decided to not ban the already caught abusers.
And I've seen at least 1-2 people who CLEARLY abused but weren't even the top 100.
As for Jalstar, you're an idiot. They didn't abuse with the intention of getting caught moron. So any punishments that would have been listed previous to the start of the iccup stage wouldn't have effected their decision. Especially so since some of these guys don't even play BW anymore, and only came back FOR this tournament.
Well nataL, what is the point of banning a cheater from tournament if even with cheating they can't make the cut for those tournaments?
Edit: It takes a lot of work/discussion for the admins to decide someone was cheating, and wasting all that work on someone who isn't competitive anyways is useless.
Edit2: Just my 2 cents. Also cheers to ggnet for their decision.
How many of the "new" "unknown" players who qualified for TSL2 might have abused last season but didn't make the cut so they weren't checked over? But with time they got better enough and decided not to abuse this season? Do you really want someone like that walking away with a title and cash prize that someone who's always played legit deserves?
I think you are underestimating the amount of work involved in what you are suggesting by a longshot. Yes in a perfect world we could catch all the abusers/cheaters. But this isn't a perfect world, and anyone we catch can just make a new account from a new ip and be some new guy that is really good but nobody ever heard of at the drop of a hat as long as the tournament isn't face to face.
If you have clear evidence of abuse, please let one of the staff know so we can deal with it. Arbitrarily saying "i have seem 100% clear cut abuse in top 100" doesn't do anything for us...help a brother out.
On December 18 2009 09:01 {88}nataL wrote: I think the bans are absolutely pointless. Why ban them when all the abusers who didn't even get a look over because they didn't make it into the top 48 get a pass? Either hate cheaters enough to find them all and punish them all, or don't punish any of them.
This is my plea to get all the cheaters punished, I really don't want to see tommorow that they've decided to not ban the already caught abusers.
And I've seen at least 1-2 people who CLEARLY abused but weren't even the top 100.
As for Jalstar, you're an idiot. They didn't abuse with the intention of getting caught moron. So any punishments that would have been listed previous to the start of the iccup stage wouldn't have effected their decision. Especially so since some of these guys don't even play BW anymore, and only came back FOR this tournament.
Most of them abused a small amount of games, if they knew the punishment would be more than missing the TSL they wouldn't have done it and we'd have a higher quality top 48
banning SOME abusers from events for an extended period of time is obviously waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than banning none.. especially if the only reasoning you give is "didn't catch em all"
Well woopdie dooo dude.. lol we got some and that is better than none.
On December 18 2009 09:01 {88}nataL wrote: I think the bans are absolutely pointless. Why ban them when all the abusers who didn't even get a look over because they didn't make it into the top 48 get a pass? Either hate cheaters enough to find them all and punish them all, or don't punish any of them.
This is my plea to get all the cheaters punished, I really don't want to see tommorow that they've decided to not ban the already caught abusers.
And I've seen at least 1-2 people who CLEARLY abused but weren't even the top 100.
As for Jalstar, you're an idiot. They didn't abuse with the intention of getting caught moron. So any punishments that would have been listed previous to the start of the iccup stage wouldn't have effected their decision. Especially so since some of these guys don't even play BW anymore, and only came back FOR this tournament.
Most of them abused a small amount of games, if they knew the punishment would be more than missing the TSL they wouldn't have done it and we'd have a higher quality top 48
Its not just about the points, they also smurfed against many of their possible opponents, which could gain them an advantage in an later encounter.,
It's good to know that cheaters will have their punishment. But will it have any longer effect? What will a 6 month ban do if SC2 come the 1Q of next year? Everyone will start playing that game.
This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..." That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc" Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament" Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..." The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
On December 18 2009 09:47 Korn wrote: This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..." That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc" Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament" Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..." The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
On December 18 2009 09:47 Korn wrote: This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..." That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc" Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament" Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..." The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
all good points and I agree
the real question is: will we be seeing the return of [pG]Korn to the world of starcraft commentating?
On December 18 2009 09:41 Fallout wrote: It's good to know that cheaters will have their punishment. But will it have any longer effect? What will a 6 month ban do if SC2 come the 1Q of next year? Everyone will start playing that game.
The abusers should be punish. I am really glad gg.net did that. It seems like too many people are ready to forgive cheating in SC... Just because they are good/famous players.
If the punishment will affect them who knows. But at least it sets an example for the others. Hopefully people will think twice before they decide to cheat.
i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
It's not a matter of mercy vs. justice, or revenge, or anything like that. It's about someone who has shown they would willingly compromise a competition and STEAL MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO LEGITIMATELY EARN IT. Those people cannot be allowed to compete again under the same rules, even if just to discourage future behavior from themselves and others.
I'm happy with GG for doing this, although I feel 6 months is a bit lenient. However, from what the TL staff have been implying in this thread the abusers are still awaiting major punishment, which I think is good.
Theres nothing worse than cheating/abusing in competitive gaming, in my opinion. I would rant some more but Korn pretty much covered it already.
While I'm at it I would like to thank TL staff for their magnificent work with the ladder, and with catching the abusers. Keep it up!
i think thats not a good move but gg.net know whats doing. banning because cheat in ladder (not hack) its not a right move......banning from TSL not enought?
If banning from TSL was the only thing we did then every player at the #50-60 mark has 100% reason to abuse. That would definitely not be a good move. Basically banning from TSL2 is zero punishment, because it would give everyone incentive to abuse and participate again the next time. We're definitely not going for zero punishment here.
I think Korn has worded it very well. Abuse and cheating are an enormous problem in esports and your attitude OctZerg is what causes this problem. Unfortunate as it may be people are not punished enough nor looked down upon enough which makes players think it is fine to do things like this. It's not. It is essentially stealing. Does it make sense to steal a car and when you get caught offer to return it?
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
On December 18 2009 09:01 {88}nataL wrote: I think the bans are absolutely pointless. Why ban them when all the abusers who didn't even get a look over because they didn't make it into the top 48 get a pass? Either hate cheaters enough to find them all and punish them all, or don't punish any of them.
I think jailing murderers is absolutely pointless. Why jail them when all the murderers who didn't get caught get a pass? Either hate murder enough to find them all and punish them all, or don't punish any of them.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
Afaik kawaiirice was banned from TSL for x amount of time because he helped a friend of his abuse in the past TSL. Correct me if I'm wrong.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
Afaik kawaiirice was banned from TSL for x amount of time because he helped a friend of his abuse in the past TSL. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe you are wrong, as he has qualified, and is in Group H.
On December 18 2009 09:47 Korn wrote: This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..." That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc" Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament" Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..." The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
I've been repeating what you say in point 2 for YEARS, and yet people seem to not care and think maphacking or cheating in any way is not an huge offence to the community. I think it is, and I'm glad someone else does.
On December 18 2009 09:47 Korn wrote: This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..." That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc" Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament" Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..." The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
Afaik kawaiirice was banned from TSL for x amount of time because he helped a friend of his abuse in the past TSL. Correct me if I'm wrong.
He was banned because he helped Lastshadow at WCG by being bm obs and messaging him with shit his opponent was doing? Although I do remember the TSL abuse taking place too.
I really appreciate some heavy sanctions against the abusers. I was worried they would just be out of the TSL with a slap on the wrist. Thanks for doing the right thing.
F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
Maybe because if he didn't do that Ash would've had to kick him from the team? He did the same as the rest and deserves the same punishment. The difference with the other abusers is he has a guy who backed him up.
I can maintain at least a sliver of respect for the people who own up to cheating. LIke F91 and Diamega. If you can admit that you made a mistake, then there is hope for you changing imo.
EDIT: Although in some cases it's just a matter of "I'm sorry I got caught"
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
Afaik kawaiirice was banned from TSL for x amount of time because he helped a friend of his abuse in the past TSL. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I believe you are wrong, as he has qualified, and is in Group H.
I believe you are wrong, as this is not TSL. This is TSL 2. Don't correct people if you are wrong. Please.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
Afaik kawaiirice was banned from TSL for x amount of time because he helped a friend of his abuse in the past TSL. Correct me if I'm wrong.
He was banned because he helped Lastshadow at WCG by being bm obs and messaging him with shit his opponent was doing? Although I do remember the TSL abuse taking place too.
This was the case? Since I remember the LS abuse but I wasn't aware it was kawaiirice? I'm almost certain I heard some TL person say that it was from TSL somewhere...
I was going to say TL should have made it very clear how in depth of an investigation they were going to conduct and how severe the punishments were going to be but I can understand the need to privacy. You don't need abusers changing their abusing methods to reduce their chance of getting caught. Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished. It is generally much less effective to punish people afterward than to be proactive.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
Yeah man, he's an honest guy but even so would abuse. =O
A person murders someone, then after the police is just about to figure out who the murderer was, he confesses. He probably gets a smaller punishment than another person who didn't ever confess, but many TL members confessed in this situation. It's still likely that he has to stay in the jail for the rest of his life.
However, if that man murdered someone and then immediately called the police and turned himself in before the investigation had even started and said that he regretted it and such... He most likely would get a sentence of like 8-10 years for causing a death.
I don't know what that has to do with this ^_^ As mentined, what F91 did was damage control, not an actual confession.
EDIT: Oh, and I believe that in, say, a popular sports-event with similiar prize pool would have the cheating contestant pay fines or something similiar if they get caught cheating. I remember I voted that maphacking and abuse and such weren't so horribly serious in the poll before. However, I was talking about just normal iccup seasons and, like, maphacking for fun on battle.net. This kind of abuse in a tournament with actual prize money on the line(a lot of it), however, is a completely different thing to me. I wouldn't find it unreasonable if they had to pay, say, 100$ fines per person, if that could somehow be enforced.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
On December 12 2009 06:39 ret wrote: I'm not kidding. I saw estro players play iccup against IpromiseU all the time. And saw reps of him. He is Chinese and protoss 100% ( said so in multiple games) and f91 just got 3 really short games vs his terran, so it can't really be any more obvious. Highly amusing. :D
I'm not sure if hes chinese but I've just asked F91 personally if he knows that guy and f91 denied. I'll get replays from him later but I don't think hes stupid enough to cheat on two 3 mins games.
he did not immediately admit it, he did try to cover it up.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
Yeah man, he's an honest guy but even so would abuse. =O
You would not be singing the same tune if F91 played Protoss or Terran.
An abuser is an abuser, plain and simple. And if you've seen the way he talks on China's BNet Attack he is extremely BM, you just don't see it during TSL tournaments but he is extremely BM.
And as Idra said he tried to cover up his abuse first, and now he is just trying to save face.
I agree that the abusers should be banned severly but i understand what micronesia is saying by an upfront warning. Players would be less likely to abuse if they know the potential consequences of their actions, if they still do .. by all means permanent ban them.
On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished.
Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is?
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
Yeah man, he's an honest guy but even so would abuse. =O
You would not be singing the same tune if F91 played Protoss or Terran.
An abuser is an abuser, plain and simple. And if you've seen the way he talks on China's BNet Attack he is extremely BM, you just don't see it during TSL tournaments but he is extremely BM.
And as Idra said he tried to cover up his abuse first, and now he is just trying to save face.
On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote: The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
Why didn't you announce it before the ladder?!? Maybe these highly skilled players wouldn't have abused if they knew the full extent of the punishment.
Common sense? In a tournament, you shouldnt be cheating? Cheating is also another word for breaking the rules?
On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished.
Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is?
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house.
Common sense seems to be a mystery to some.
Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right.
It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse.
On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote: The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote: Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
Ok, sorry, it's a bit late and I might have been carried away. I would say the TL.net staff naively trusted that noone would have cheated, and that ladder system would promote people who are better players/put more effort by playing a lot of games. It's the final examination that revealed their mistake, and that's why we talk about punishments now and not beforehand. In the end they get the right to say "cheaters will be punished" anyway, and no matter how you look at it, they are right with this approach.
On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished.
Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is?
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house.
Common sense seems to be a mystery to some.
Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right.
It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse.
On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote: The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished.
Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is?
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house.
Common sense seems to be a mystery to some.
Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right.
It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse.
On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:
On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote: The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
why discourage it more from the start? drug raids dont work if you inform them of them in advance. This lets us figure out the scum of the community and I believe that's a good thing.
On December 18 2009 10:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If banning from TSL was the only thing we did then every player at the #50-60 mark has 100% reason to abuse.
I think a lot of players DID think the only punishment was banning from TSL. Again, if they had known about whatever punishment's about to be announced they might not have done it.
On December 18 2009 13:24 Shikyo wrote: why discourage it more from the start? drug raids dont work if you inform them of them in advance. This lets us figure out the scum of the community and I believe that's a good thing.
Bad analogy. If someone cheats all the time outside of TSL but never cheats in TSL they should be allowed to play.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
It's not a matter of mercy vs. justice, or revenge, or anything like that. It's about someone who has shown they would willingly compromise a competition and STEAL MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO LEGITIMATELY EARN IT. Those people cannot be allowed to compete again under the same rules, even if just to discourage future behavior from themselves and others.
what i mean is that the whole basis of this kind of stuff, at least in my mind, is that: a) obviously they are banned from this, they had an unfair advantage b) the reason for future banning is (like the connection people are making to murder, which is a highly illogical one by the way, at least the way people are trying to connect it) not because of the actual cheating here, but because of the possibility of future cheating.
as in, if there were a way to absolutely ensure that they would never cheat/abuse/put themselves at an unfair advantage again, then i would have no problem with allowing them back in. yes their actions were horrible, really and truly, but without a some sort of continuous reason i personally do not see reason for continuous punishment. that being said, the idea here is that because they cheated, we can only assume that they may cheat for future events, and thus that assumption is strong enough to ban them from said events, so they dont even get the opportunity to try. whether or not they will is irrelevant, which in a situation such as this one is basically unavoidable in any other way.
THAT being said, i still dislike this whole idea of "if we dont punish harshly then people will still cheat because theyre not afraid!" as the rationale. i understand the truth in this, and that this is the reality of the situation. but when i see people posting that as the actual justification, i think thats a pretty warped way of seeing it; i see the reason behind people not cheating as being not ruining the spirit of equal competition by putting themselves at an unfair advantage, and the reason for punishment being to prevent those who would otherwise inevitably do so from doing so. its not bad logic, just logic in the wrong place is all, and i think having misplaced logic is a bad thing especially when it inflames zeal and spreads like wildfire in such a situation as this.
blech, now i feel silly for ranting, im not really sure what i or tl got out of this. sorry everybody, just trying to clarify my thoughts and make them known!
I'm much more interested in the tourney and the hundreds of reps I can watch now than the fate of a handful of fuck up reject abortion assholes. Those people who abused spat in the face of all the people working hard (Im not one of them) on this tourney. FOR FREE.
How many times do you see a group of people willing to organize and put on entertainment for thousands, as well as giving a chance for some young men to win 10k, for absolutely no compensation in return? I would say not very fucking often.
So fuck you abusers. You don't deserve any more front page headlines. On with the show.
On December 18 2009 10:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If banning from TSL was the only thing we did then every player at the #50-60 mark has 100% reason to abuse.
I think a lot of players DID think the only punishment was banning from TSL. Again, if they had known about whatever punishment's about to be announced they might not have done it.
Yeah, we don't need honest players, just players who have the decency to do a rough risk/reward calculation before deciding if they should cheat.
On December 18 2009 13:24 Shikyo wrote: why discourage it more from the start? drug raids dont work if you inform them of them in advance. This lets us figure out the scum of the community and I believe that's a good thing.
Bad analogy. If someone cheats all the time outside of TSL but never cheats in TSL they should be allowed to play.
Also true, I mean, what do those ladders/tournaments/games of starcraft have in common with TSL's ladder/tournament/games of starcraft
Serious: Ban the shit out of them. For a long time. There is no good reason to let them play. TSL3 will not miss them.
On December 18 2009 10:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: If banning from TSL was the only thing we did then every player at the #50-60 mark has 100% reason to abuse.
I think a lot of players DID think the only punishment was banning from TSL. Again, if they had known about whatever punishment's about to be announced they might not have done it.
There was a quote from the rules of the first TSL about cheating/abusing. It was common sense to assume that punishment was going to be at least as severe or more. What "they might have not done" is irrelevant at this point.
On December 18 2009 13:35 jalstar wrote: If someone cheats all the time outside of TSL but never cheats in TSL they should be allowed to play.
Wtf? If we have a clear proof that someone cheats regurlaly, they should not be able to play in a tournament, thats just stupid for some very obvious reasons.
On December 18 2009 13:54 Manifesto7 wrote: I'm much more interested in the tourney and the hundreds of reps I can watch now than the fate of a handful of fuck up reject abortion assholes. Those people who abused spat in the face of all the people working hard (Im not one of them) on this tourney. FOR FREE.
How many times do you see a group of people willing to organize and put on entertainment for thousands, as well as giving a chance for some young men to win 10k, for absolutely no compensation in return? I would say not very fucking often.
So fuck you abusers. You don't deserve any more front page headlines. On with the show.
well said.
fuck them all and don't let them take spot light from the actual tournament and the players who all worked hard to make it. they are the ones deserve attention, not the abusers. exclude the abusers from everything, kill them and bury them. dont speak to them, dont touch them. fuck em
show must go ooon! yea yeah.. so, of whom were we talking about again?.. that's right, NOBODY.
Well, i would make an analogy to Nuremberg´s judgement.
The nazi acted with the law. They couldnt be punished because the law supported them. It ordered them to do some disgraceful things.
Because of that they escaped punishment? Anyone with clear sense would argue it was illegal punish them? Perhaps there´s something more important than have everything written somewhere? Or that some laws dont even need to be written to have effect?
Fair play is from the essence of any game or competition, and by "fair" you can understand equally conditions for everyone to compete, without any artificial or unnatural advantage of some above others. So, the argument of the absence of previous law is completelly innadequate in this case.
On December 18 2009 09:47 Korn wrote: This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..." That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc" Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament" Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..." The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
1) I totally agree that the punishment should have longterm consequences and should not be reduced to DQ from current tournament alone. In sports, there is usually a ban of 3 to 5 years inflicted on cheating players and I think that's a well chosen timespan.
2) I agree that the detailed extent of the punishment should be announced beforehand. This is not just to make it clear, that cheating is not allowed (which IS common sense), but just to make it less probable for players to cheat to begin with. Then they can calculate, ok if they catch me, I'll pretty much gonna be out of the tournament scene for that long. Especially good players will be less prone to cheat, which is good for the scene.
i like the strict nature of your approach to this. everyone who thinks of cheating in any (hopefully just as and even more succesful) future TSL events will think thrice of the risk of being caught and effectively losing face and committing reputational suicide.
some people are prolly dumb enough to not really think of the consequences and/or care too little (dimaga stroke me as that) but the rest will know what to expect if they think of any fishy moves.
On December 18 2009 17:51 Celial wrote: Who exactly cares about the rankings and noobbash tournaments GG provides? I mean it's a great sign, but the effects are rather mediocre.
Feel free to give us advice on how to punish them further.
It's not a question on how effective the punishment will be, it's about taking a stand against abusing. As pointed out, some people will think it's too lenient. We decided that this form of abuse is not as bad as maphacking and therefore did not warrant a full one year ban.
However it is still a high level event with a huge prize pool, and a huge amount of work put in to it. That means we couldn't just sit back and pretend like nothing.
Also, if they ever get caught for anything again, it's a life time ban. That means no DreamHack, no replay uploads, no coverage of their games. No publicity what so ever from GG.net. That would hurt even the best players. They are on a tight leash now, and will be so for the rest of their careers, even after this ban.
And to the question if we are punishing them for this to stop them from doing it again, the answer is no. Our punishment cannot stop a player from abusing as we're not locking him up. It's simply revenge. The community's urge for justice has to be satisfied, and only revenge can do that. That is a major part of all judicial systems. They hurt the community, we hurt them back, even if it's ever so little. However, if we are lucky, this stand against abusing might deterr a few from abusing in the future, or deterr these players from doing it again. Unlikely, but we hope for it.
I suppose it's totally wrong to invent rules and punishments after the incidents. For this season even a ban was too hard (the resetstats would have sufficed). But additional condition could be included the next season or next tournament.
Lifetime ban. Well, the person who actualy declare it should take the responsibility for death penalty. Who will? Or some 20-25 year guy realy think he can show "the way of light" only because he is an admin?
Yet again, make the rules. You want ban? Okay, so be it. But in this case ban for every abuse, not for "so good event with a big prize pool".
On December 18 2009 17:51 Celial wrote: Who exactly cares about the rankings and noobbash tournaments GG provides? I mean it's a great sign, but the effects are rather mediocre.
Feel free to give us advice on how to punish them further.
Really good move by GG.net, and I'm glad TL.net is planning further punishments. Unless you draw a really hard line and point out that cheating really is forbidden and punishable, people will just continue doing it. It doesn't matter that the cheaters happened to be some of the very top players in the foreign community, if they cheat, they're out, simple as that. Keep it clean and rely on your skill and determination instead of trying shit like this.
How can people even argue about not punishing abusers? I think it's pretty damn clear that abusing should NOT be accepted. People saying: "He is good, he could have made it without abusing, don't kick him out of TSL" are retarded. If he is good then why did he abuse in the first place? Argh, I go crazy when I read some peoples comments who thinks ban is "too harsh". lol
EDIT: Yes, GG.net is right in punishing them as well. If a long distance runner cheats in the olympics, should he be able to participate in the world championships? Creds to both GG.net and TL!
On December 18 2009 19:05 meRz wrote: Really good move by GG.net, and I'm glad TL.net is planning further punishments. Unless you draw a really hard line and point out that cheating really is forbidden and punishable, people will just continue doing it. It doesn't matter that the cheaters happened to be some of the very top players in the foreign community, if they cheat, they're out, simple as that. Keep it clean and rely on your skill and determination instead of trying shit like this.
On December 18 2009 09:47 Korn wrote: This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..." That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc" Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament" Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..." The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
On December 18 2009 17:51 Celial wrote: Who exactly cares about the rankings and noobbash tournaments GG provides? I mean it's a great sign, but the effects are rather mediocre.
Feel free to give us advice on how to punish them further.
Permaban
Yeah. Permaban. Abusing in a ladder like this is way worse than hacking in normal games or clan wars or whatever. There are players who played hundreds of games to get top 48 who wouldn't have made it if the abusers had gotten away with it. Hacking one game gives the victim a negative result from that one game. Abusing a ladder gives your victim a negative result from all the games he played in it. Furthermore, in terms of seriousness/$ value TSL is way, way above any random tournaments, leagues or clan wars. We're talking serious $ here. The only type of cheating which is in the same region of bad as this would be hacking in WCG qualifiers.
On December 18 2009 19:16 MorroW[MB] wrote: its good to see that ggnet and tlnet can have a good trust with each other when it comes to important stuff as banning cheaters
Yeah I thought the same And I agree with everithing korn wrote about the issue! What I want to add is that the point of "they didnt need to cheat, they are godd enough without it" makes them look even more stupid. Why the hell do people cheat and risk all this when they dont need to do so to qualify?? I really dont get it!!
It just sucks that we may not see any of these players again in future TL events. Even though a lot of them never really came around much for other tournaments.
Also, if they ever get caught for anything again, it's a life time ban. That means no DreamHack, no replay uploads,
wait so if i get caught cheating you wont post any more replays of me?
hey guys i gave ret a freewin that last game
never change haha
I think people even arguing that the punishment is too harsh is the exact reason why the punishments need to become harsher. It just shows how many people view cheating/abusing in bw and its excatly why people keep on cheating. Like that stylish incident he acted like he didnt even do anything wrong. Of course what he did wasnt as bad as what people did in tsl but it was still lying to the people who follow his vods/threads. You never see people admit that they cheated. Its always they get caught and then they admit to it and its always the same excuses. I didnt have enough time, it was just a few points, why are you getting so upset, people dodge me, etc.
On December 18 2009 20:57 Ilikestarcraft wrote: I think people even arguing that the punishment is too harsh is the exact reason why the punishments need to become harsher. It just shows how many people view cheating/abusing in bw and its excatly why people keep on cheating. Like that stylish incident he acted like he didnt even do anything wrong. Of course what he did wasnt as bad as what people did in tsl but it was still lying to the people who follow his vods/threads. You never see people admit that they cheated. Its always they get caught and then they admit to it and its always the same excuses. I didnt have enough time, it was just a few points, why are you getting so upset, people dodge me, etc.
Maphack and playing with teammates is different. So the punishment should be different. Execution for "pointing" in ladder and wait... double execution for maphack?
Also, if they ever get caught for anything again, it's a life time ban. That means no DreamHack, no replay uploads,
wait so if i get caught cheating you wont post any more replays of me?
hey guys i gave ret a freewin that last game
Lol I have to admit I like Idra more and more.
GJ on the punishments, let's hope we see equally, or more serious action from TL. It's an insult to the organisers, the other ladder players, and all us honest players out there who would never dream of doing this.
On December 18 2009 22:49 Welmu wrote: I think that banning is unfair, because I am sure that there were abusers outside top48, too... And they don't get any punishement. :/
the punishment is they abused and wasted their time for no reason
On December 18 2009 22:49 Welmu wrote: I think that banning is unfair, because I am sure that there were abusers outside top48, too... And they don't get any punishement. :/
Half the abusers we caught were outside of the top 48 when we started our checks. A few remained outside of it even after we removed the 15 in front of them. HappyZerg and Juachi never made it to top 48 despite all the disqualifications, and Scan, Juanjo, Mercury were outside of top 48 before we started checking.
Even if we would catch zero players outside of top 48 your statement still makes no sense. You can't find every car thief on the planet does that mean you shouldn't do anything about the ones that you do catch.
I really think that guys that is doing this shit, ruin awesome tournaments in a already small community deserves lifeban from all that have to do with it.
I think for punishment, the most severe of them all is a life time IP ban from Iccup. That would be GG. Oh and sorry for all those who live anywhere close to any of those abusers. When Iccup bans IP, they ban it good. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97528
He's one of the most talented and skilled players outside Korea. He doesn't too much effort to qualify and when it fails he just abuses- totally unacceptable. I could understand (understand NOT justify) someone who's bad and abuses to be up there...
And for people who defend him because he admitted it- you are wrong as one can be. He denied it as long as possible. Read the ladder thread where ret accused him of abusing. Ash asked F91 and he at first denied it only after he was actually caught did he admit anything and that of course is meaningless.
idra is using this abusers to become popular! and he is doing it well :D buuuuut!!! (!!!), it's truth he gave ret a freewin coz if you look a replay you'll see that ret never attacked idra so he couldn't win unless idra wanted that :D
On November 17 2009 06:50 OppositeSavior wrote: So anyone can play in TSL just make an account with TSL tag and start playing the 21st?
Yes, provided you do not have a Chinese or Korean IP.
So isn't ret and Idra allow to play? I suspect they have a Korean IP.
And how do you judge whether a player is playing with a Chinese or Korean IP when he is playing the ladder?
We will know because his IP address will be Korean or Chinese.
Well, I know it sounds stupid, but can you please explain explicitly about this IP issue? For example, If i am playing with an USA IP for most of the games, and then play with a Chinese/Korean IP for one or several games, would you know that? And would you punish that?
All ladder games must be played from non-Korean, non-Chinese IPs. In your hypothetical, are you saying you plan to play most of the games from the United States then fly to China and play one game? I suspect this issue affects very few people.
As for our ability to detect IPs, I'm obviously not going to tell you explicitly how we track it or how evade it (if evading us is even possible). For 99.99% of cases, we will know if you play even one or two games from inside Korea or China, and any account that does this (without us giving the player an exception) will be disqualified.
This DQ will very likely happen at the end of the ladder, so there won't be time to play another account to qualify (if that is the goal). If multiple accounts are used in this way, we will know by cross-checking IPs. Also, all accounts with games played sharing IPs (for instance, if your A+ friend logs in and plays games for you) can and will be found out by us too. Add to this the rule that you must give all ladder replays to us (for hotkey matching), and its going to be very, very difficult to abuse.
Basically, don't try to abuse or game the system, because we will find out and you will be punished -- harshly. This is very likely not the last TSL, and abuse in one will likely result in a lifetime ban from all future TL events.
On December 18 2009 22:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Even if we would catch zero players outside of top 48 your statement still makes no sense. You can't find every car thief on the planet does that mean you shouldn't do anything about the ones that you do catch.
of course not, it'd be so unfair!! besides, some of those thieves had cars anyway, so they wouldn't have needed the ones they stole.
Despite all the arguments anyone can come up with, people who abused in this tournament deserve anything and everything that TL throws at them.
There are some very silly discussions over making punishments known beforehand. Whether or not this was done 'properly' is of no consequence. Anyone who is going to abuse in the biggest SC tournament outside of Korea to EVER TAKE PLACE - with its huge-ass prize pool, its array of dedicated volunteers, and all the work that has been put into it - should know better purely from common sense. If you mess with such a thing, you are disturbing the mountain that is the foreigner scene. Punishment is strongly implied.
The argument that not making punishment known beforehand has ruined the prestige of this tournament is ridiculous. If anything has 'ruined' the prestige of this tournament, it's the abusers themselves. No one at TL, no one involved in the TSL2 is to blame for their actions.
Anyway, like Manifesto said, the abusers will not scar this tournament. The tournament will scar them.
On December 18 2009 12:50 JoMal wrote: I agree that the abusers should be banned severly but i understand what micronesia is saying by an upfront warning. Players would be less likely to abuse if they know the potential consequences of their actions, if they still do .. by all means permanent ban them.
So they will abuse in the next tournament where there will be less chance they will get caught? This is the way it should have been and I'm glad it played out like that. F91 should have the same punishment as the rest. He should be punished by hes team as well.
edit: TL did put a lot of effort to make this tournament happen and found a lot of money for the prize pool and ofter some players pissed on TL's face there are still some idiots that say TL does not have the right to ban them from THEIR OWN future tournaments.
My idea is the same as in many other sports: 2 year ban for first offence ant life time ban for 2nd
On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished.
Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is?
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house.
Common sense seems to be a mystery to some.
Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right.
It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse.
On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:
On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote: The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
This is probably a perfect ban. I agree that if you want a sport to be taken seriously, you need to disallow all forms of cheating. I'd even go a step further, and on a 2nd or 3rd cheat ban them permanently from all events.
On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished.
Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is?
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house.
Common sense seems to be a mystery to some.
Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right.
It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse.
On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:
On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote: The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention.
Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
It's not absurd I don't think anyone argues that more information is a not good thing. It's better to inform than not to, you're right about that. We have said and stated that it could result in bans to future tournaments so we're not doing anything we didn't inform people of already. Regardless whether people are informed on specifics or or not; abuse should always be dealt with in a strong manner and should be expected as such.
We could have done a better job informing people of these statements and will do so with future TSL's. We are by no means running a perfect tournament but I do not think this is an issue that should be made such a big deal out of.
On December 18 2009 22:49 Welmu wrote: I think that banning is unfair, because I am sure that there were abusers outside top48, too... And they don't get any punishement. :/
Half the abusers we caught were outside of the top 48 when we started our checks. A few remained outside of it even after we removed the 15 in front of them. HappyZerg and Juachi never made it to top 48 despite all the disqualifications, and Scan, Juanjo, Mercury were outside of top 48 before we started checking.
Even if we would catch zero players outside of top 48 your statement still makes no sense. You can't find every car thief on the planet does that mean you shouldn't do anything about the ones that you do catch.
Okey good that you dudes caught people outside top48, too. . Well you are maybe right about that you can't find every car thief... It is still pretty unfair, but when I was thought this thing more deeply, I realized that everything can't be in balance. (Sorry bad english)
silence you babies! you should never cheat, ever! not on bnet, not on iccup, not in your home LAN games, not even on your math test! get a life and let those of us who care about true competition and sportsmanship enjoy it!
A complete lock-out from the SC community would be out of line in my opinion. This because people grow (in age and in the head), and because SC2 is coming which should mean a blank slate for some, if not the worst. A year, maybe a year and a half ban sounds reasonable.
Well the arguments here makes sense, but justice is not all about sense.
For instance, some people compare cheating to criminal activity - ban = go to jail. However were the people involved in this case able to go through trail to properly investigate each case? Sure there maybe have not been enough time, but then it means accused = guilty.
I just have one player in my mind - "Reason". Well this player seemed to have released his replay pack with the replays of his alter account "Hiroshima". So it would be so evident that both of this accounts actually belong to him. So isn't it possible that this retired player who tried to participate in this tourney didn't have the intention to cheat? Side facts : he was in top 20 with a very high win ratio and judging from the ban report didn't transfer points. I think there is a reason why in the current society warning or lesser punishments can be given first when the outlawed activity is not severe or repetitive.
I would like to end my post with something that is well known on this forum a Latin phrase - actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind be also guilty".
Note : I have never talked with this player nor do I know him personally.
On December 18 2009 12:36 Shikyo wrote: However, if that man murdered someone and then immediately called the police and turned himself in before the investigation had even started and said that he regretted it and such... He most likely would get a sentence of like 8-10 years for causing a death.
This just isn't true. Murder in the first and third degree are both capital offenses, minimum sentence is life in prison. A murderer is "better off" pleading not guilty and hoping to plea down in degree to manslaughter.
Further, this analogy sucks because criminal courts require a higher level of certainty than is required in this matter. Cheating in a money tournament is not criminal, regardless of how much posters more experienced and wiser than me claim that it is theft. But this also means that the accused don't have the same protections a criminal would (not that any of these guys are innocent).
The tournament organizers enter into a de facto contract with the tournament participants, and the violation here is breach of contract. If you were TL.net, how long would you want to wait before entering another contract with someone like that?
Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable.
I can't believe some of you are so tolerate of the abusers/cheating. The other game i play (quake 3/quake live) if you get caught cheating, its a perm ban forever. Good luck trying to rejoin the community.
The starcraft community has been far too soft on cheaters imo.
On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote: Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable.
People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults.
On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote: Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable.
People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults.
I strongly disagree that 'people who think like me ruin the community'. This is discussion how to improve the community.
I did not suggest what a reasonable punishment would be. A lifetime ban suggested several times in this thread is not reasonable punishment. Also one cannot compare this situation to sports where the punishments are clear from the start. Thus it might be a good idea to write down rules, which would be followed also in the future events.
And I do think the punishments should be the same for everyone whatever their age was.
(Edit: Clarified the first sentence so it would be understood correctly. Punishments must feel like punishments but still be fair)
On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote: Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable.
People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults.
well said 100% agree ~ most games would not deal with such abuse over and over.. sc community acts as if it wants it back over and over.. cheating is cheating.. i cant fathom how people of team liquid can be like "oh lastshadow abused, free win, rigged maps.. in practice games/tournaments.. lets not allow him to be a part of anything.." yet when its f91 dimaga reason ect.. ppl try and justify it.. when ITS THE SAME THING.. and actually even worse.. becasue this was a over 20k$ tournament.. not a practice game..
On December 19 2009 04:28 Zurles wrote: Lifetime bans are absolutely ridiculous and should be given next to never, I support the gosugamer's 6 month ban. Seems fair.
to low
lifetime ban for hackers
for abusing it should be like 1-2 years minimum ^^ (perjaps less for happy and frear who only helped dimaga so 1year for them 2years for others)
How can you lifeban those guys ? I mean TT1 got caught using maphack like 3 times ( ?? ) and he was banned less than one year the last time he got caught lol whereas maphacking is way worse than abusing 100 pts.
I don't care if it is a 20k event or not when you use drugs they don't ban you for a longer period if it is a World Cup or Romania rugby league division 4. Anyway the cheaters and the abusers in TSL 1 weren't lifebanned and it was also an event with a big prize money.
P-S: I don't hate TT1 and i understand that now he has learned the lesson and is a nice guy streaming and providing replay packs which is something really cool because only few good players do that, but i wanted to say that people shouldn't get lifeban because it means that he should have been life banned for three lifes already and if he is still playing and "clean" it is because people can forgive.
I don't think banning them for more than one year would be a wise and fair decision. Actually it would be double standards.
Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try.
On December 19 2009 05:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try.
You got a point.
Btw when will we know the decision regarding bans from TL events ? It will be a lifeban like mentioned in Hot_Bid OP ?
2 times and ive been banned from gg.net and tl.net for like 3 years (apart from by brief ban lift for tsl 1)
and even wat i did was far worse than abusing games the end result is that what they did was during tsl, the penalty for an action isnt always going to be proportionate to the action itself, sometimes you have to take into account the context aswell
They should be banned from every TL.net tournament! Obviously
though I think gg.net shouldnt do anything (sorry for thinking that, but i consider this less "bad" than a maphack for instance)
I posted on GG.net and wasnt very clear but i dont care what they think there, whereas i do care about TL members' opinion: I m not defending those players, what they did was clear abuse and they deserve to be banned from TL.net, i d even say for more than just the tournaments!
On December 19 2009 05:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try.
I agree that both are very severe forms of cheating.
I disagree though that they are the same. Maphacking is even worse since you can abuse your way into a tourney, but you cannot win the tourney by doing so since you will no longer be able to abuse once the qualifiers start. Maphackers though can ride their unfair advantage all the way to final victory, even in a big money tourney like the tsl and thus steal the prize that would belong to another legit player.
Both should be dealt with harshly but maphacking should get an even bigger punishment.
On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote: Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable.
People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults.
well said 100% agree ~ most games would not deal with such abuse over and over.. sc community acts as if it wants it back over and over.. cheating is cheating.. i cant fathom how people of team liquid can be like "oh lastshadow abused, free win, rigged maps.. in practice games/tournaments.. lets not allow him to be a part of anything.." yet when its f91 dimaga reason ect.. ppl try and justify it.. when ITS THE SAME THING.. and actually even worse.. becasue this was a over 20k$ tournament.. not a practice game..
I totally agree..
both are unfair ways to take advantage and does not support competition and the main concern is to discourage further abuse by them and other potential abusers.
Good job GG.net and, eventually, TL.net.
Also, in sports, players go to trial. I don't know how gg.net and TL judges these cases, but I just hope there're no mistakes (not saying there're no mistakes in sports trials).
I think the thing that disappoints people the most is the popularity if these gamers. It's going to be a big letdown to people who favor these guys.
I believe all people who abused in TSL deserve harsh punishment. I played over 100 games and not one game was won by abuse. I still feel bad about 4 pooling people though :p
To continue the age discussion, which I started. I have seen many young people who don't think before breaking rules. After getting couple of years older they often understand things better. I consider 'too long' bans bad punishments to such people. Even they deserve a second chance. Of course some events are more valuable than others. In TSL there is money on table and thus cheating is considered more severe. Easy solution to the age problem would be not to accept players under 18 years old to tournaments with money prices. People over 18 should be mature enough to play by the rules or to face appropriate penalties when they are caught.
On December 19 2009 07:43 SonuvBob wrote: Sadly maturity and age don't necessarily line up, especially on the Internet.
This is true. But being adults they could be considered mature enough (even if they are not). If the rules (including the penalty rules) are clear, then it should be easy to judge cheaters when they are caught.
I like the potential stance that TL is taking on cheaters/abusers. I've always felt that the punishment levied against those who break the rules was lenient. It's hard to think of fair punishments, but I am confident TL will think of something good.
good on GG, but i would like more severe punishments, I am tired of repeat abusers.
TL staff work voluntarily to host the greatest, most well run, prestigious foreigner tournaments in the sc world, and do so in a way that allows all foreigners an equal, and fair chance of winning.
did you get that? VOLUNTARILY, FOR FUCKING FREE. I find it repulsive that anyone would consider cheating in these tournaments, it is a spit in the face of the people who pour their heart and soul into this community.
I am glad Nazgul is going to put his foot down, this has been going on long enough.
i would also like for people to realize that forgiveness from abuse should not be considered something the cheaters are given an easy way to achieve, it is something they must WORK hard for, in order to hopefully achieve one day. They need to earn the hell out of that second chance, it shouldn't be given to them. .
oh sure "oh cool seems it NOT FORBIDDEN TO CHEAT IN A 23.000$ TOURNAMENT" ... well guys come on if they rly think that it will not be punished if u cheat in such a tournament they should just got permban for ignorance
On December 19 2009 08:14 CoL_Drake wrote: WTF UI ARE TALKING ABOUT "no clear rules wtf"
oh sure "oh cool seems it NOT FORBIDDEN TO CHEAT IN A 23.000$ TOURNAMENT" ... well guys come on if they rly think that it will not be punished if u cheat in such a tournament they should just got permban for ignorance
I feel depressed to reply this as I think that TL staff has given us an awesome tournament! Shame on the people who cheated!
The rules are (mostly) clear regarding what is not allowed. Regarding the penalties the rules only state: "We reserve the right to disqualify users for any violation of these rules. More details and rules about the Qualifier stage will be released as the ladder concludes."
I am sure lots of people who participated in the ladder phase did not think about the prize money. But as money is on the table, the rules should have been more precise regarding the penalties.
On December 19 2009 05:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try.
I agree that both are very severe forms of cheating.
I disagree though that they are the same. Maphacking is even worse since you can abuse your way into a tourney, but you cannot win the tourney by doing so since you will no longer be able to abuse once the qualifiers start. Maphackers though can ride their unfair advantage all the way to final victory, even in a big money tourney like the tsl and thus steal the prize that would belong to another legit player.
Both should be dealt with harshly but maphacking should get an even bigger punishment.
With a big tournament like tsl you wouldn't be able to ride your maphack to the finals considering its being stream and highly analyzed but 1000's of people but then again I suppose similar conclusions could be meant in regards to abusing.
To reply to the people who arguing we should give everyone a second chance:
That is exactly what we are doing with banning these players six months (and normally an initial one year ban for maphacking). What they did is unacceptable, but everyone can fuck up. After their six months are over, they get a new chance. If they fuck that up, it's a life time ban.
On December 19 2009 05:35 WGT-Baal wrote: They should be banned from every TL.net tournament! Obviously
though I think gg.net shouldnt do anything (sorry for thinking that, but i consider this less "bad" than a maphack for instance)
I posted on GG.net and wasnt very clear but i dont care what they think there, whereas i do care about TL members' opinion: I m not defending those players, what they did was clear abuse and they deserve to be banned from TL.net, i d even say for more than just the tournaments!
Clearly you don't care what we think, as you are considering withdrawing from our Nations League in protest. Really the position of a guy who doesn't care.
Also it seems like you have most TL.net members against you in this too. So a guy abuses a TL.net event, and GG.net should just sit back and pretend like nothing? Why the heck would we want to waste time and resources on players who clearly doesn't give a shit about the community, sportsmanship and respect in general? So they can mess up our events too? No, we do it out of solidarity with TL.net and out of self preservation.
In any communitity there is the common knowledge of the consequences of behaviours that the community deems unacceptable. Whether or not the consequences to the players were known here or not I do not know, but in this case I believe it is up to Team Liquid to set a very clear precedence of what will happen next time(hopefully never again) cheaters are caught in other TL functions. IMO there should be zero tolerance and the cheaters should be perma-banned from other functions and from posting here on TL. Team Liquid is a pillar to the Starcraft community, and in a game where rampant cheating has already infiltrated I do not believe it would be wise to allow a second chance to the cheaters.
I just want a fair game.. =(
Here is another idea, sticky the names and description of the abuse to the top of the Broodwar forum after the tournement is over...for about a year. teamliquid.net/forum/gallows Might serve as a nice reminder that the community takes fair play seriously.
On December 19 2009 05:35 WGT-Baal wrote: They should be banned from every TL.net tournament! Obviously
though I think gg.net shouldnt do anything (sorry for thinking that, but i consider this less "bad" than a maphack for instance)
I posted on GG.net and wasnt very clear but i dont care what they think there, whereas i do care about TL members' opinion: I m not defending those players, what they did was clear abuse and they deserve to be banned from TL.net, i d even say for more than just the tournaments!
I kinda agree with this. I can't really put into words how I feel about this... I mean GG.net can do whatever they want but it just seems like they're trying to kiss ass right now....
Well it only took 10+ years but its nice to see the community is finally taking a harsh stance on cheating. I only wish we could go back in time and start dishing out some punishments for past abuses that people in the community got away with. I'd hate to see someone who got away with abusing go unpunished. I'd even hate it if someone knowingly let someone,or someone's get away with abuse. After all knowingly abiding cheating is almost as bad as cheating yourself.
On December 18 2009 13:54 Manifesto7 wrote: How many times do you see a group of people willing to organize and put on entertainment for thousands, as well as giving a chance for some young men to win 10k, for absolutely no compensation in return? I would say not very fucking often.
So fuck you abusers. You don't deserve any more front page headlines. On with the show.
On December 19 2009 05:35 WGT-Baal wrote: They should be banned from every TL.net tournament! Obviously
though I think gg.net shouldnt do anything (sorry for thinking that, but i consider this less "bad" than a maphack for instance)
I posted on GG.net and wasnt very clear but i dont care what they think there, whereas i do care about TL members' opinion: I m not defending those players, what they did was clear abuse and they deserve to be banned from TL.net, i d even say for more than just the tournaments!
I kinda agree with this. I can't really put into words how I feel about this... I mean GG.net can do whatever they want but it just seems like they're trying to kiss ass right now....
whose ass?
They were found to be cheaters, and they were punished for it. If someone cheats in BWCL or iCCCL they will get not only banned from BWCL but also from gosugamers. It's not unreasonable, you get punished regardless of where you did it.
A. We don't want people that are cheaters to be playing in our tournaments B. We want people to be discouraged to do things like this, and if people know the consequences they are less likely to cheat, thus making the community a better place for all.
As for punishments regarding maphacking, it is all situational although many players have been permabanned from gosugamers for hacking.
I think gg.net really did a great job there. And I honestly don`t get discussing about or even stating the idea of later punishment. What point is there in playing a game when you know some people abuse it ? Srsly, although Im nowhere near ever playing those guys and I really enjoy watching some of them doesn't mean they can go make their own rules. Main reason for starcraft being so awesome is the balance, so if you dont punish people who try to shift in in their favor, what is the point of playing?
I still like the abusers I liked before, some of the styles they play are just fun to watch and I'm sad I wont get to see them more often in the future, but I can live with that rather then with people cheating, abusing or shifting favor in any way other then winning in the game.
On December 19 2009 15:36 cgrinker wrote: Newsflash:
SC2GG sees a huge influx of high level players
lolz
My thoughts exactly hahaha.
I agree with a nice long ban duration, maybe let them come back into the community in a couple of years (lol), but it still makes me sad to see respected players like yosh and DIMAGA do this kind of shit
On December 19 2009 05:35 WGT-Baal wrote: They should be banned from every TL.net tournament! Obviously
though I think gg.net shouldnt do anything (sorry for thinking that, but i consider this less "bad" than a maphack for instance)
I posted on GG.net and wasnt very clear but i dont care what they think there, whereas i do care about TL members' opinion: I m not defending those players, what they did was clear abuse and they deserve to be banned from TL.net, i d even say for more than just the tournaments!
I kinda agree with this. I can't really put into words how I feel about this... I mean GG.net can do whatever they want but it just seems like they're trying to kiss ass right now....
So your idea is that you can compete in the world cup even if they caught you cheating in european cup?
On December 19 2009 05:39 NiGoL wrote: i think many people that use TL.net uses GG.net also? am i wrong?
you are wrong. how dare you compare TL to gosugamers. we routed them in a showmatch dammit AND we are a million times cooler.
also, i remember people debating the same thing about clazz being perma-banned for hacking. as the largest starcraft community, TL should take the harshest stance in order to severely discourage abusing in future events. it has to be done, even if it means we have to 'sacrifice' some stars along the way. it's their fault for abusing and they should take full responsibility for it.
TL was given thousands of dollars for a tournament, so they have a responsibility to hold the competitors to the highest standards. It's not like there are sponsors giving out thousands of dollars every day - this is a rare opportunity so it's good that TL is showing that they know how to handle it. It's good that GG.net is taking this seriously too - if you commit a crime in the US, Canada will still turn you in, and vice versa.
The main problem is that it's so easy to abuse when there isn't a tournament. It's pretty easy normally to get away with the kind of abuse that people were caught with, and the punishment isn't that severe usually. It just sounds like a big deal when suddenly people are paying serious attention and there are real consequences now that there's money involved.
edit: as far as star players go, it's not a tragedy that they're banned, its a tragedy that they were cheating to begin with.
On December 19 2009 05:39 NiGoL wrote: i think many people that use TL.net uses GG.net also? am i wrong?
you are wrong. how dare you compare TL to gosugamers. we routed them in a showmatch dammit AND we are a million times cooler.
also, i remember people debating the same thing about clazz being perma-banned for hacking. as the largest starcraft community, TL should take the harshest stance in order to severely discourage abusing in future events. it has to be done, even if it means we have to 'sacrifice' some stars along the way. it's their fault for abusing and they should take full responsibility for it.
best dota-replays are on gg.net.
Its starcraft section, however, is kinda redundant since TL does everything it does, just way better.
I more or less agree with Boblion. If people really regret what they did and really think it was stupid and immature (of course you can't tell if they're honest-one must judge based on actions taken) I would find it sad to permanently rob them of a chance to show they can change (well, who needs those guys anyways.. it's a bit sad because of the richness of skill in TSL lacking players like yosh, dimaga and A2, but there are still others who are really good - it's just not a complete list of the absolute top foreigners then - but I guess morales > such things).
*edit*oh, I wanted to add: Maybe -> 1) first phase punishment: Ban for consecutive TSL and forum ban up till then + close watch their actions; IF a) they are clean and behave as they should they could be allowed to play in TSL4 if they were banned for TSL3 and caught in 2; IF b) they are caught cheating, abusing, whatev in any other event in any way or where ever -> 2) (second phase punishment) BAN these mofos forever, as they showed they cannot change their behaviour.
it's just a question of stance: do you want to miss exceptions that occur like TT1 as Boblion said or don't you care what happens to their dishonest asses
Some people seem to be under the impression that this is the first time ggnet (or any other site, besides tlnet) has done something against hacking/abusing. Or the first time some of the major sc sites had worked together against this kinda thing.
That takes care of that. Now speaking as a former ggnet admin i know there's a lot of behind the scenes work against hackers and serious in-crew discussion about how to deal with hackers/abusers etc. Action was taken. Even if you think it was too lenient this is not the time to ride ggnet for the usual stuff tlnetters put them down for. I applaude them, and especially LoC.. who I'm pretty sure was the first to bring it up in the internal crew forums^^ It would have been soooooooo easy to do nothing.
On December 19 2009 20:57 white wrote: What is stopping these players to simply smurf their way into future events or competition? Are abusers ip-banned or what?
I don't want to be mean with GG.net but why this guy is still allowed on their site ? http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/rankings/927 He pretty much ruined one year of cws vs Lrm) hacking in both 1v1 and 2v2. 6 months sentence too ? If someone should have been life banned it is him.
I'm ok for 6 months ban for abusers but seriously this guy deserves more.
i agree with being harsh on abusers and even if its not practical im gna throw this idea out there: prehaps a period of 'community service' could be arranged with a review at the end of [insert period] months.
Players wishing to lessen their sentence (e.g. banned from TSLs, not permabanned from TL) could do community beneficial things such as streaming & involvement in initiatives such as the D- - D+ groups with a teacher. Also gives players with big regrets to righten their rep.
I foresee banning from all future TSL's (but not all TL events) and perma or long-period bans from TL. I hope to god it doesn't include a ban from iccup.
On December 19 2009 22:29 Boblion wrote: I don't want to be mean with GG.net but why this guy is still allowed on their site ? http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/rankings/927 He pretty much ruined one year of cws vs Lrm) hacking in both 1v1 and 2v2. 6 months sentence too ? If someone should have been life banned it is him.
I'm ok for 6 months ban for abusers but seriously this guy deserves more.
He's not even on our blacklist among offenders or past offenders. I'll check him up as well as I can, but it's very hard to make a system that works in retrospect, and doesn't get out of control.
We don't give maphackers 6 months, they get one year on first offense. On second offense they get a life time ban.
Read my PM to you, I'll try to find out as much as I can, and if I find enough he'll probably be added to "past offenders", meaning next offense is a permban. Reason we most likely won't ban is because we really can't take action against stuff that happened a long time ago. But as I said, I'll see what I can do.
Edit: Robertito is apparantly the same as Executor. Executor was banned for one year after being caught in the first TSL, then released after his one year ban. If he's ever caught again he'll have lifte time ban.
On December 19 2009 22:47 TaG]SiG wrote: i agree with being harsh on abusers and even if its not practical im gna throw this idea out there: prehaps a period of 'community service' could be arranged with a review at the end of [insert period] months.
Players wishing to lessen their sentence (e.g. banned from TSLs, not permabanned from TL) could do community beneficial things such as streaming & involvement in initiatives such as the D- - D+ groups with a teacher. Also gives players with big regrets to righten their rep.
I foresee banning from all future TSL's (but not all TL events) and perma or long-period bans from TL. I hope to god it doesn't include a ban from iccup.
Force them into playing 1v1s vs Combat-ex until he reaches C-rank without abusing...
On December 19 2009 22:47 TaG]SiG wrote: i agree with being harsh on abusers and even if its not practical im gna throw this idea out there: prehaps a period of 'community service' could be arranged with a review at the end of [insert period] months.
Players wishing to lessen their sentence (e.g. banned from TSLs, not permabanned from TL) could do community beneficial things such as streaming & involvement in initiatives such as the D- - D+ groups with a teacher. Also gives players with big regrets to righten their rep.
I foresee banning from all future TSL's (but not all TL events) and perma or long-period bans from TL. I hope to god it doesn't include a ban from iccup.
Force them into playing 1v1s vs Combat-ex until he reaches C-rank without abusing...
kudos to GG.net and I hope TL take the most drastic measures they can against cheaters/abusers/hackers. Specially cause is an event with prizes this should be a punishment that delivers a message.
I particularly dont care of people who are "stars" because exactly for that reason they shouldnt be abusing.
It is sad that they thought about it in the first place but they have to attain for their consequences now.
I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
So basically you say: "cheaters/abusers are welcome as long as there are around for al long time and are skilled", or did I get you wrong?
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
I would really have liked to see some kind of statement from the TSL Staff before the ladder started where they stated what kind of punnishments would be dealt out for abusing etc.
Maybe something for TSL3?
I do feel they should be punnished since they abused in a moneytournament, but a lifetime ban might be too harsh...
Why would you have to state before a huge event that there will be consequences if you get caught cheating? Isn't it pretty selfevident that if you get caught cheating you'll be punished? As a lot of people have already pointed out, being DQed is not a punishment (since there is no negative consequence for players who would not have reached the top48 without cheating, but could with cheating) for many players.
Sure it might be a good idea to set up policies that everyone is aware of, but not announcing it beforehand is no reason not to take powerful measures. If you don't abuse or cheat, you don't get in to trouble. It's as simple as that.
On December 20 2009 05:16 StylishVODs wrote: I do feel they should be punnished since they abused in a moneytournament, but a lifetime ban might be too harsh...
I don't think a lifetime ban would be too harsh. The problem with money tournaments is that the prize is large enough to tempt people into behaviors they know are wrong. I guarantee you not one of those caught abusing thought that what they were doing was legitimate, right or fair.
From a simple game-theoretic perspective, the most straightforward way to minimize abuse is a lifetime ban. Make the cost of abuse, if caught, so prohibitively high that you remove the temptation for the majority of those who would otherwise consider it. For those who are still willing to try their hand at it, by banning them as they are detected the community has the twofold benefit of having one more incorrigible abuser removed from the player pool and further strengthening the deterrent to future potential abuse.
On December 20 2009 05:16 StylishVODs wrote: I would really have liked to see some kind of statement from the TSL Staff before the ladder started where they stated what kind of punnishments would be dealt out for abusing etc.
Maybe something for TSL3?
I do feel they should be punnished since they abused in a moneytournament, but a lifetime ban might be too harsh...
Biggest problem in this matter is that the rules do state what the consequences are: "We reserve the right to disqualify users for any violation of these rules." The rules do not state any other penalties. If the staff plays by the rules set by themselves there should be no other consequences regarding the tournament.
I do think that just to disqualify the cheaters is not enough. But too harsh penalties like lifetime bans should also be out of the question.
On December 20 2009 05:16 StylishVODs wrote: I would really have liked to see some kind of statement from the TSL Staff before the ladder started where they stated what kind of punnishments would be dealt out for abusing etc.
Maybe something for TSL3?
I do feel they should be punnished since they abused in a moneytournament, but a lifetime ban might be too harsh...
Biggest problem in this matter is that the rules do state what the consequences are: "We reserve the right to disqualify users for any violation of these rules." The rules do not state any other penalties. If the staff plays by the rules set by themselves there should be no other consequences regarding the tournament.
I do think that just to disqualify the cheaters is not enough. But too harsh penalties like lifetime bans should also be out of the question.
Why do people continue to talk about this within the framework of the TSL rules? The OP of this thread is about GG.net banning TSL abusers. This is external to TSL. It is the SC community as a whole rejecting cheaters completely. They have revealed themselves to be shitty people that have no respect for this passion that we all share. We don't want them in our tournaments, we don't want them in our forums.
I personally hope for lifetime bans from TL for all TSL abusers and for cheaters uncovered in any tournaments going forwards. The SC scene is set to explode when SC2 arrives. Now is the perfect time to send a crystal clear message that this community is about honest competition, integrity, respect and does not tolerate any bullshit.
On December 20 2009 05:16 StylishVODs wrote: I would really have liked to see some kind of statement from the TSL Staff before the ladder started where they stated what kind of punnishments would be dealt out for abusing etc.
Maybe something for TSL3?
I do feel they should be punnished since they abused in a moneytournament, but a lifetime ban might be too harsh...
Biggest problem in this matter is that the rules do state what the consequences are: "We reserve the right to disqualify users for any violation of these rules." The rules do not state any other penalties. If the staff plays by the rules set by themselves there should be no other consequences regarding the tournament.
I do think that just to disqualify the cheaters is not enough. But too harsh penalties like lifetime bans should also be out of the question.
Why do people continue to talk about this within the framework of the TSL rules? The OP of this thread is about GG.net banning TSL abusers. This is external to TSL. It is the SC community as a whole rejecting cheaters completely. They have revealed themselves to be shitty people that have no respect for this passion that we all share. We don't want them in our tournaments, we don't want them in our forums.
I personally hope for lifetime bans from TL for all TSL abusers and for cheaters uncovered in any tournaments going forwards. The SC scene is set to explode when SC2 arrives. Now is the perfect time to send a crystal clear message that this community is about honest competition, integrity, respect and does not tolerate any bullshit.
While I agree completely with you we must admit that 1) it is not an easy job and 2) it is also good to give second chances.
But it is good that we note that the stance taken is from GG.net and we are still expecting what is TL's punishment in this instance to see how severe is going to be for the cheaters next to come.
On December 20 2009 05:16 StylishVODs wrote: I would really have liked to see some kind of statement from the TSL Staff before the ladder started where they stated what kind of punnishments would be dealt out for abusing etc.
Maybe something for TSL3?
I do feel they should be punnished since they abused in a moneytournament, but a lifetime ban might be too harsh...
Biggest problem in this matter is that the rules do state what the consequences are: "We reserve the right to disqualify users for any violation of these rules." The rules do not state any other penalties. If the staff plays by the rules set by themselves there should be no other consequences regarding the tournament.
I do think that just to disqualify the cheaters is not enough. But too harsh penalties like lifetime bans should also be out of the question.
Why do people continue to talk about this within the framework of the TSL rules? The OP of this thread is about GG.net banning TSL abusers. This is external to TSL. It is the SC community as a whole rejecting cheaters completely. They have revealed themselves to be shitty people that have no respect for this passion that we all share. We don't want them in our tournaments, we don't want them in our forums.
I personally hope for lifetime bans from TL for all TSL abusers and for cheaters uncovered in any tournaments going forwards. The SC scene is set to explode when SC2 arrives. Now is the perfect time to send a crystal clear message that this community is about honest competition, integrity, respect and does not tolerate any bullshit.
Original topic was indeed about the supporting action made by the GosuGamers. If I understood correctly, most writers here liked that decision, even if some though it was not harsh enough.
After the TL staff announced in this thread that there will be more penalties for the cheaters, the discussion shifted more to what those actions should be. People talk about this in the context of TSL rules, as this is about cheating in TSL. And to my understanding TSL staff in this case is a synonym to TL staff.
We all want honest competition. We all want to make the community stronger. Thus rules how to deal this kind of matters should be written and made public (not necessarily every detail). It is never a good thing, if disciplinary actions are decided after something happens and behind closed doors.
Some people will always make 'boneheaded' decisions (cheat) even if there are rules. If the rules are clear and are put into action when somebody breaks them, people will hopefully think twice before cheating.
On December 20 2009 05:57 Lord_of_Chaos wrote: Why would you have to state before a huge event that there will be consequences if you get caught cheating? Isn't it pretty selfevident that if you get caught cheating you'll be punished? As a lot of people have already pointed out, being DQed is not a punishment (since there is no negative consequence for players who would not have reached the top48 without cheating, but could with cheating) for many players.
Sure it might be a good idea to set up policies that everyone is aware of, but not announcing it beforehand is no reason not to take powerful measures. If you don't abuse or cheat, you don't get in to trouble. It's as simple as that.
The fact that there would be consequences is obvious and don't have to be stated. However what kind of consequences might be good to state. Maybe some of these people wouldn't have abused, had they know it would result in a lifetime ban.
Giving the punnishment is a way to prevent abuse in future events. Stating what kind of punnishment there will be might prevent abuse in the current event. Having both must be the best way don't you think?
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
I actually agree. Te punishment has to send a message but it does not has to go to the extreme either. I guess people need to have a way to clear their names but I think the punishment has to be severe.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
Afaik kawaiirice was banned from TSL for x amount of time because he helped a friend of his abuse in the past TSL. Correct me if I'm wrong.
He was banned because he helped Lastshadow at WCG by being bm obs and messaging him with shit his opponent was doing? Although I do remember the TSL abuse taking place too.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
You hate pricks who think they're "holier than thou". Well guess what, some people are simply more legit than others. It's fucking disrespectful, especially towards the 100% legit people, to do things like this. Imagine Lzgamer for example, people who have never cheated in anything, people who played like 200+ games just to qualify, who basically missed out on qualifications just because of the abuse that was going on. This prevented them from participating in a tournament offering a grand total of 23,000 dollars in prize money, which basically means they stole their chance to earn some money. So yeah, really, you're a perfect example of why abuse is still happening, disqualification from the tournament is nothing, they missed their chance this time, better luck cheating next time. What GG.net does, and what presumeably TL.net will do, is the right thing to do, it'll make people think twice, or even three times, before they'd ever consider abusing again.
You're such a hypocrit it disgusts me. Had this been lesser known players, or "new" players to the community, you'd never make this argument. I don't see ANYONE defending players like Scan or Mercury, because they were nobodys and not famous enough, that suddenly makes their punishment more okay than for example A2's punishment?
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
Glad to hear GG.net banning abusers for a while. I can't wait to hear what TL has planned, I hope its harsh and brutal, and that it strikes fear into those who have thought about abusing.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
You hate pricks who think they're "holier than thou". Well guess what, some people are simply more legit than others. It's fucking disrespectful, especially towards the 100% legit people, to do things like this. Imagine Lzgamer for example, people who have never cheated in anything, people who played like 200+ games just to qualify, who basically missed out on qualifications just because of the abuse that was going on. This prevented them from participating in a tournament offering a grand total of 23,000 dollars in prize money, which basically means they stole their chance to earn some money. So yeah, really, you're a perfect example of why abuse is still happening, disqualification from the tournament is nothing, they missed their chance this time, better luck cheating next time. What GG.net does, and what presumeably TL.net will do, is the right thing to do, it'll make people think twice, or even three times, before they'd ever consider abusing again.
You're such a hypocrit it disgusts me. Had this been lesser known players, or "new" players to the community, you'd never make this argument. I don't see ANYONE defending players like Scan or Mercury, because they were nobodys and not famous enough, that suddenly makes their punishment more okay than for example A2's punishment?
MeRz clearly did not see the point why Tonight reacted that way. It was clearly about H's extremely rude response to him. H did just like iG.ClouD who stated earlier that 'people like me ruin the community' based on my first post in this thread. People please watch your tongues and don't let this turn into a flamewar.
And I think Tonight had good points in his reply. Maybe the punishments should treat money tournaments differently than the other tournaments?
Interesting point stated in MeRz's response is that some honest players probably 'panicked' in the last moments of the ladder stage and they decided to try to get few more points, which lead to point losses and them to dropping out from the qualifier stage. Maybe some of the cheaters panicked too? They might have played honestly to that point, but made a 'boneheaded' decision to cheat at the eleventh hour. Please note that this is just speculation from my part and not meant to discredit anyone. Also this is probably a bit oftopic as the discussion was not why the people cheated, but what kind of consequences should there be.
Interesting point stated in MeRz's response is that some honest players probably 'panicked' in the last moments of the ladder stage and they decided to try to get few more points, which lead to point losses and them to dropping out from the qualifier stage. Maybe some of the cheaters panicked too? They might have played honestly to that point, but made a 'boneheaded' decision to cheat at the eleventh hour. Please note that this is just speculation from my part and not meant to discredit anyone. Also this is probably a bit oftopic as the discussion was not why the people cheated, but what kind of consequences should there be.
Well I wasn't going to steal 23,000 dollars from you but then I panicked and stole it.
They shouldn't even think about cheating/abusing in the first place. It doesn't matter if the 'consequences' were stated or not, they abused and deserve to be punished.
I highly doubt players like Reason/A2/DIMAGA/Yosh panicked when seeing they would go to Q2 like OMFG I'm still going to qualify but not through the easiest road hurry up I have to get freewins! Not that panic is an excuse to begin with but I think the guys that abused to get into top 12 did so in a very calculated manner.
Indeed some players seem to have cheated in a very calculative manner. Then there were some, who were just under the top 48 line, and in the last moment tried to cheat their way up. I could argue based on the evidence that some cheaters were calculative, but some were just 'boneheaded' and did not think clearly before acting. This argument may be wrong as I do not have enough information. But in any case cheating is cheating and should always be punished.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
Apparently punishing the bad ones is part of the show.
Well, in middle age people used to go see people get executed on public place, I guess it is the same kind of entertainement.
I don't like abusers but the whole thing is a bit sad.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
On December 21 2009 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: Apparently punishing the bad ones is part of the show.
Well, in middle age people used to go see people get executed on public place, I guess it is the same kind of entertainement.
I don't like abusers but the whole thing is a bit sad.
There's definitely a hidden truth in your statement. Punishment has a couple of motivators: Redemption for victims, removing offenders from society, and a public statement to deter others from doing the same.
The deterring others is clearly going to play a part in making the online environment a cleaner place. Calling what we are trying to do here entertainment is a cheap shot and ignores the actual intention behind it.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
...Nony's statement is 100% correct - nothing about it was bm. He simply stated the facts. Your retort is that F91 "spanked" him and Mondi said he was ban manner...good job.
The reason Nony (and others) get upset about F91 specifically is that if it were any other player, he would be publicly disgraced. F91 has received an overwhelming amount of support despite abusing...If you look at the other abuse cases with players who committed the exact same act, the response is not even remotely similar.
On December 21 2009 02:11 Rabbet wrote: It's pretty obvious that Nony is a little butt hurt from F91, I mean every single post he writes is in reference to F91.
I was wondering if gosu gamers's were privy to the evidence or did they just trust TL's procedures to catch the cheaters?
We have posted all the evidence that we have regarding these players in previous threads...not the exact IPs obviously, but it is all public.
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
To be honest no one gives a shit anymore and this is not the right thread to speak about that.
On December 21 2009 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: Apparently punishing the bad ones is part of the show.
Well, in middle age people used to go see people get executed on public place, I guess it is the same kind of entertainement.
I don't like abusers but the whole thing is a bit sad.
There's definitely a hidden truth in your statement. Punishment has a couple of motivators: Redemption for victims, removing offenders from society, and a public statement to deter others from doing the same.
The deterring others is clearly going to play a part in making the online environment a cleaner place. Calling what we are trying to do here entertainment is a cheap shot and ignores the actual intention behind it.
I dislike more the prison keeper than his prisonner, or the executionner than the murderer.
The fact that you guy have to ban/punish hacker is understandable. The fact that it becomes a hype with everybody getting so excited, asking for blood and you making sensationnal anouncement leaves me a bit cold. Punishing should never be more than a sad necessity. IMO.
On December 21 2009 02:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Punishing should never be more than a sad necessity.
You are wrong because it is way more than that. It sets an example for whoever will think about cheating or abusing in the future. People ask for blood because they know you can't use reason with people who try to behave above the rules, and unfortunately the possibility of punishment is the only thing which keeps many of them from doing so.
On December 21 2009 02:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Punishing should never be more than a sad necessity.
You are wrong because it is way more than that. It sets an example for whoever will think about cheating or abusing in the future. People ask for blood because they know you can't use reason with people who try to behave above the rules, and unfortunately the possibility of punishment is the only thing which keeps many of them from doing so.
That's one answer I understand. Not sure it is efficient, unfortunately.
Sad sad sad. Anyway. Hopefully we don't have more of this shit in future events.
On December 21 2009 02:28 Biff The Understudy wrote: That's one answer I understand. Not sure it is efficient, unfortunately.
If anything the harsher the penalty, in this case, the more socially efficient. A life-time ban on TL tournaments for any abuser would have the two-fold benefit of permanently removing existing dishonest players from participation in future events (presumably creating some sort of benefit for the community as a whole) and creating a strong deterrent for future abusers/cheaters. Those who still deem it worthwhile to cheat even knowing the consequences in the future are probably incorrigible enough that a lifetime ban would then make sense anyways. Either way, it creates the most benefit possible for all those not involved for a minimum of work both now and in the future. Thats extremely efficient.
On December 21 2009 02:40 See.Blue wrote: If anything the harsher the penalty, in this case, the more socially efficient.
Unfortunately, it doesn't work this way. Look at criminality and justice policy in the US and compare with elsewhere. The fact that the most repressive of the western country is also the one with the highest criminality, the fact that death penalty doesn't lower for shit the number of murder, which is much much higher in US than anywhere in Europe is in itself a counter-argument.
Yeah I'm aware of the fact that every time I publicly say something bad about a player I've I lost to, especially if the match was especially ugly, it's an opportunity for people to interpret it as personal. But Kennigit pretty much nailed it. If the general response was different, I certainly would stay far away from these threads. But the way people have been reacting has compelled me to post. I know how to foster a squeaky-clean reputation but I'm not going to put on an act or stay quiet when important issues are at hand.
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
OH NOES, someone has been BM in the past! His opinion is completely irrelevant then!
On December 21 2009 02:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:06 iG.ClouD wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
OH NOES, someone has been BM in the past! His opinion is completely irrelevant then!
Welcome to the real world buddy.
His opinion is perfecty relevant, and he may absolutely be right.
I won't trry to explain you the whole concept of elegance if you don't understand.
On December 21 2009 02:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:06 iG.ClouD wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
OH NOES, someone has been BM in the past! His opinion is completely irrelevant then!
Welcome to the real world buddy.
His opinion is perfecty relevant, and he may absolutely be right.
I won't trry to explain you the whole concept of elegance if you don't understand.
I just feel that what happened between F91 and Nony is not not worth being brought back, unless like Nony kept bashing on F91 over and over again.
On December 21 2009 02:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:48 Gumbo wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:06 iG.ClouD wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
OH NOES, someone has been BM in the past! His opinion is completely irrelevant then!
Welcome to the real world buddy.
His opinion is perfecty relevant, and he may absolutely be right.
I won't trry to explain you the whole concept of elegance if you don't understand.
I just feel that what happened between F91 and Nony is not not worth being brought back, unless like Nony kept bashing on F91 over and over again.
That's pretty much what he has been doing this week.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
You hate pricks who think they're "holier than thou". Well guess what, some people are simply more legit than others. It's fucking disrespectful, especially towards the 100% legit people, to do things like this. Imagine Lzgamer for example, people who have never cheated in anything, people who played like 200+ games just to qualify, who basically missed out on qualifications just because of the abuse that was going on. This prevented them from participating in a tournament offering a grand total of 23,000 dollars in prize money, which basically means they stole their chance to earn some money. So yeah, really, you're a perfect example of why abuse is still happening, disqualification from the tournament is nothing, they missed their chance this time, better luck cheating next time. What GG.net does, and what presumeably TL.net will do, is the right thing to do, it'll make people think twice, or even three times, before they'd ever consider abusing again.
You're such a hypocrit it disgusts me. Had this been lesser known players, or "new" players to the community, you'd never make this argument. I don't see ANYONE defending players like Scan or Mercury, because they were nobodys and not famous enough, that suddenly makes their punishment more okay than for example A2's punishment?
What is there to think about from these people if they are permanently banned from everything? It makes other people think, but not those people. I'm not saying what's done is done I'm saying they need to be punished, but not shoved out of the community completely. I didn't say DQ from the tournament only. It looks like you just picked out words in my post and decided to yell at me for only specific points and take them out of context. If you ban them from all money related tournaments that's a pretty huge thing in my opinion. You don't see this level of competition on tournaments with no monetary gain. Yes, they should also be banned from TL/GG.net for a determined amount of time. But, for the love of god people need to stop twisting my words and turning me into, as you call it, a hypocrite. I have basically agreed with anything the admins have decided to do.
The point is. Yes, they need to be punished. Yes, I think players like scan and mercury are less known so therefore people don't care as much. Just like, who is going to care about some no name NBA player when you have a Kobe, but they need to be punished all the same. No, I don't think they need to be lifetime banned from everything BW related, but still their punishment has to be severe. Don't twist my words. The punishment has to fit the crime and that's beyond me to decide what is appropriate.
On December 21 2009 02:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:48 Gumbo wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:06 iG.ClouD wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
OH NOES, someone has been BM in the past! His opinion is completely irrelevant then!
Welcome to the real world buddy.
His opinion is perfecty relevant, and he may absolutely be right.
I won't trry to explain you the whole concept of elegance if you don't understand.
I just feel that what happened between F91 and Nony is not not worth being brought back, unless like Nony kept bashing on F91 over and over again.
Which is _exactly_ what he has been doing, in this thread and others. It is very difficult to interpret in any way other than nony trying to get back at F91 for raping him in the past. But desipte his seemingly fairly dishonest motives I have to agree with him though, F91 deserves the same treatment as everyone else, preferably lifetime bans from everything.
On December 21 2009 02:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:48 Gumbo wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 02:06 iG.ClouD wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:53 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 21 2009 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
On December 20 2009 20:16 Piste wrote:
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
I really don't give a damn about F91, trust me. I don't give a damn about any abuser. They are out of the tourney, that's fine.
When someone kicked your ass last time you met him in front of all TL, and you left, you dodged his manager, you barely gg, and you say you lost because of lag, you avoid going into a crusade when he is in the shit for having been stupid. Because that's fucking inelegant.
OH NOES, someone has been BM in the past! His opinion is completely irrelevant then!
Welcome to the real world buddy.
His opinion is perfecty relevant, and he may absolutely be right.
I won't trry to explain you the whole concept of elegance if you don't understand.
I just feel that what happened between F91 and Nony is not not worth being brought back, unless like Nony kept bashing on F91 over and over again.
That's pretty much what he has been doing this week.
I don't think bashing is the right word. I just remind people what they did and what it means. And I wouldn't even bother saying it if there weren't so many people taking ridiculous positions like these abusers are honest people that deserve instant forgiveness. If everyone pretty much posted something like "damn I thought these were good people but now I have no respect for them" then, as a sort of public figure / involved party, I would do the respectful thing and stay out of it. But since it hasn't been like that, I've been as respectful as possible while stating facts and giving my opinion on how the community ought to regard these abusers. Anyway I'm going afk now for ~2 weeks so I expect this is the last post I'll make on this issue so the cheaters are now free from my vicious attacks on their characters
Which is _exactly_ what he has been doing, in this thread and others. It is very difficult to interpret in any way other than nony trying to get back at F91 for raping him in the past. But desipte his seemingly fairly dishonest motives I have to agree with him though, F91 deserves the same treatment as everyone else, preferably lifetime bans from everything.
OK this is getting ridiculous. Could Nony have recused himself in this particular matter to avoid a potential conflict of interest? Perhaps. This however is just reactionary and unnecessary. Nony is an administrator of the organization running the event, for him to get involved with the punishment of blatant abusers, regardless of his past history with select individuals, is perfectly acceptable. You have no evidence or basis to argue either way about whether or not this is revenge so please, just drop the topic. This is asinine.
Man, it's so exciting that this even happened. It sparks so many different view points from the community and all sorts of other debates with heated arguments. I love following the ladder itself, but hot damn this might be just as exciting so far;)
I am bit disappointed that some writers seem to have "We don't care about the rules when giving punishments" attitude. This post is probably a bit repetitive what I wrote earlier. I hope it raises discussion.
Someone already compared this case to the 'real world'. If somebody breaks the law and gets caught, he will be judged based on the laws (rules). Same goes to sports; If somebody acts against the rules, he will be punished according the rules. In that sense 'criminals' of this case have already got their punishment according to the rules. In that sense there should be no case (further penalties) anymore.
Thus rules should be written how to deal with cheaters. By having rules it would also be one step towards the goal that in the future we could call this 'e-sports'. Quoting what StylishVODs wrote earlier: "Giving the punnishment is a way to prevent abuse in future events. Stating what kind of punnishment there will be might prevent abuse in the current event. Having both must be the best way don't you think?"
We agree that just disqualifying the cheaters is not enough. But 'virtual death penalties' such as lifetime bans from the community are not fitting penalties either.
On December 21 2009 02:11 Rabbet wrote: It's pretty obvious that Nony is a little butt hurt from F91, I mean every single post he writes is in reference to F91.
I was wondering if gosu gamers's were privy to the evidence or did they just trust TL's procedures to catch the cheaters?
If you mean the IPs etc. then no. Other than that, the evidence TL.net presented does just fine for a sentence. Especially since no player claimed innocence. Had they done that we might have asked for more details. But so far TL.net has always been consistent and accurate in things like these and there is no reason they would lie about the IPs.
Which is _exactly_ what he has been doing, in this thread and others. It is very difficult to interpret in any way other than nony trying to get back at F91 for raping him in the past. But desipte his seemingly fairly dishonest motives I have to agree with him though, F91 deserves the same treatment as everyone else, preferably lifetime bans from everything.
OK this is getting ridiculous. Could Nony have recused himself in this particular matter to avoid a potential conflict of interest? Perhaps. This however is just reactionary and unnecessary. Nony is an administrator of the organization running the event, for him to get involved with the punishment of blatant abusers, regardless of his past history with select individuals, is perfectly acceptable. You have no evidence or basis to argue either way about whether or not this is revenge so please, just drop the topic. This is asinine.
Just to be clear, Nony has a TL icon because he is a member of the Liquid clan, but he is definitely not doing admin work or running the TSL in any way. He is a player participating in the TSL, it would hardly be fair for a player who is competing in the tournament to be an administrator of the tournament. The same goes for Drone.
On December 21 2009 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: Apparently punishing the bad ones is part of the show.
Well, in middle age people used to go see people get executed on public place, I guess it is the same kind of entertainement.
I don't like abusers but the whole thing is a bit sad.
There's definitely a hidden truth in your statement. Punishment has a couple of motivators: Redemption for victims, removing offenders from society, and a public statement to deter others from doing the same.
The deterring others is clearly going to play a part in making the online environment a cleaner place. Calling what we are trying to do here entertainment is a cheap shot and ignores the actual intention behind it.
I dislike more the prison keeper than his prisonner, or the executionner than the murderer.
Free Mumia!
I'm starting to understand why Paris named a street after a cop killer.
On December 24 2009 04:34 GW.Methos wrote: gosugamers lol. what a terrible website.
Top secret tip from the mods: posts like this make us look at your post history. When this is one of your better posts, drawing that kind of attention to yourself is probably a bad idea.
The people who run and work at GG are great people and I'm glad to have worked with them. The majority of users are the ones who ruin everything and give a bad image to the site. I'm glad that they took these steps. LoC is a good guy who has a real passion for BW, I expected nothing less from them.
EPT
