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On December 19 2009 05:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try.
You got a point.
Btw when will we know the decision regarding bans from TL events ?
It will be a lifeban like mentioned in Hot_Bid OP ?
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2 times and ive been banned from gg.net and tl.net for like 3 years (apart from by brief ban lift for tsl 1)
and even wat i did was far worse than abusing games the end result is that what they did was during tsl, the penalty for an action isnt always going to be proportionate to the action itself, sometimes you have to take into account the context aswell
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They should be banned from every TL.net tournament! Obviously
though I think gg.net shouldnt do anything (sorry for thinking that, but i consider this less "bad" than a maphack for instance)
I posted on GG.net and wasnt very clear but i dont care what they think there, whereas i do care about TL members' opinion: I m not defending those players, what they did was clear abuse and they deserve to be banned from TL.net, i d even say for more than just the tournaments!
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i think many people that use TL.net uses GG.net also? am i wrong?
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On December 19 2009 05:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try.
I agree that both are very severe forms of cheating.
I disagree though that they are the same. Maphacking is even worse since you can abuse your way into a tourney, but you cannot win the tourney by doing so since you will no longer be able to abuse once the qualifiers start. Maphackers though can ride their unfair advantage all the way to final victory, even in a big money tourney like the tsl and thus steal the prize that would belong to another legit player.
Both should be dealt with harshly but maphacking should get an even bigger punishment.
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marcoso
Brazil818 Posts
On December 19 2009 04:15 Lz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 04:03 iG.ClouD wrote:On December 19 2009 03:48 korona wrote:
Some of the cheaters are very young. I hope the TL staff will consider also this when they decide the punishments. If the punishments are reasonable, the cheaters are given time to 'grow up' and become wiser. If the punishments are too harsh, they may loose their interest in Starcraft (nothing to aim for in the future).
I consider the punishments set by the GosuGamers reasonable. People who think like you ruin the community. Not giving cheaters a kick to the teeths results only in more cheating. Age is not an excuse, and young players need to get a lesson even more than the rest, because when they grow up they will end polluting the scene even more as adults. well said 100% agree ~ most games would not deal with such abuse over and over.. sc community acts as if it wants it back over and over.. cheating is cheating.. i cant fathom how people of team liquid can be like "oh lastshadow abused, free win, rigged maps.. in practice games/tournaments.. lets not allow him to be a part of anything.." yet when its f91 dimaga reason ect.. ppl try and justify it.. when ITS THE SAME THING.. and actually even worse.. becasue this was a over 20k$ tournament.. not a practice game..
I totally agree..
both are unfair ways to take advantage and does not support competition and the main concern is to discourage further abuse by them and other potential abusers.
Good job GG.net and, eventually, TL.net.
Also, in sports, players go to trial. I don't know how gg.net and TL judges these cases, but I just hope there're no mistakes (not saying there're no mistakes in sports trials).
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I think the thing that disappoints people the most is the popularity if these gamers. It's going to be a big letdown to people who favor these guys.
I believe all people who abused in TSL deserve harsh punishment. I played over 100 games and not one game was won by abuse. I still feel bad about 4 pooling people though :p
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To continue the age discussion, which I started. I have seen many young people who don't think before breaking rules. After getting couple of years older they often understand things better. I consider 'too long' bans bad punishments to such people. Even they deserve a second chance. Of course some events are more valuable than others. In TSL there is money on table and thus cheating is considered more severe. Easy solution to the age problem would be not to accept players under 18 years old to tournaments with money prices. People over 18 should be mature enough to play by the rules or to face appropriate penalties when they are caught.
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Sadly maturity and age don't necessarily line up, especially on the Internet.
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51272 Posts
ohai
age means complete shit on the internet
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Thanks for support guys. We are trying to do our best. Know that my insides hurt me pretty bad when I saw some names, but we can't use fame as excuse.
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On December 19 2009 07:43 SonuvBob wrote:
Sadly maturity and age don't necessarily line up, especially on the Internet.
This is true. But being adults they could be considered mature enough (even if they are not). If the rules (including the penalty rules) are clear, then it should be easy to judge cheaters when they are caught.
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I like the potential stance that TL is taking on cheaters/abusers. I've always felt that the punishment levied against those who break the rules was lenient. It's hard to think of fair punishments, but I am confident TL will think of something good.
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good on GG, but i would like more severe punishments, I am tired of repeat abusers.
TL staff work voluntarily to host the greatest, most well run, prestigious foreigner tournaments in the sc world, and do so in a way that allows all foreigners an equal, and fair chance of winning.
did you get that? VOLUNTARILY, FOR FUCKING FREE.
I find it repulsive that anyone would consider cheating in these tournaments, it is a spit in the face of the people who pour their heart and soul into this community.
I am glad Nazgul is going to put his foot down, this has been going on long enough.
i would also like for people to realize that forgiveness from abuse should not be considered something the cheaters are given an easy way to achieve, it is something they must WORK hard for, in order to hopefully achieve one day.
They need to earn the hell out of that second chance, it shouldn't be given to them.
.
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WTF UI ARE TALKING ABOUT "no clear rules wtf"
oh sure "oh cool seems it NOT FORBIDDEN TO CHEAT IN A 23.000$ TOURNAMENT" ... well guys come on if they rly think that it will not be punished if u cheat in such a tournament they should just got permban for ignorance 
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On December 19 2009 08:14 CoL_Drake wrote:WTF UI ARE TALKING ABOUT "no clear rules wtf" oh sure "oh cool seems it NOT FORBIDDEN TO CHEAT IN A 23.000$ TOURNAMENT" ... well guys come on if they rly think that it will not be punished if u cheat in such a tournament they should just got permban for ignorance
I feel depressed to reply this as I think that TL staff has given us an awesome tournament! Shame on the people who cheated!
The rules can be found from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105717
The rules are (mostly) clear regarding what is not allowed. Regarding the penalties the rules only state:
"We reserve the right to disqualify users for any violation of these rules. More details and rules about the Qualifier stage will be released as the ladder concludes."
I am sure lots of people who participated in the ladder phase did not think about the prize money. But as money is on the table, the rules should have been more precise regarding the penalties.
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ofcourse fame is nothing when it comes to this. Its even worse.
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On December 19 2009 05:46 Substandard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 05:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Maphacking is not way worse than abusing that is just something people who haven't given it much thought think. They are both very severe forms of cheating.
Maphacking gives you an unfair advantage when we play, but if you abuse I won't even get the chance of beating you. If I am legit and play with 48 hackers, or I'm legit and play with 48 abusers the difference is that I'll never break top 48 when they abuse no matter how hard I try. I agree that both are very severe forms of cheating. I disagree though that they are the same. Maphacking is even worse since you can abuse your way into a tourney, but you cannot win the tourney by doing so since you will no longer be able to abuse once the qualifiers start. Maphackers though can ride their unfair advantage all the way to final victory, even in a big money tourney like the tsl and thus steal the prize that would belong to another legit player. Both should be dealt with harshly but maphacking should get an even bigger punishment.
With a big tournament like tsl you wouldn't be able to ride your maphack to the finals considering its being stream and highly analyzed but 1000's of people but then again I suppose similar conclusions could be meant in regards to abusing.
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To reply to the people who arguing we should give everyone a second chance:
That is exactly what we are doing with banning these players six months (and normally an initial one year ban for maphacking). What they did is unacceptable, but everyone can fuck up. After their six months are over, they get a new chance. If they fuck that up, it's a life time ban.
On December 19 2009 05:35 WGT-Baal wrote:
They should be banned from every TL.net tournament! Obviously
though I think gg.net shouldnt do anything (sorry for thinking that, but i consider this less "bad" than a maphack for instance)
I posted on GG.net and wasnt very clear but i dont care what they think there, whereas i do care about TL members' opinion: I m not defending those players, what they did was clear abuse and they deserve to be banned from TL.net, i d even say for more than just the tournaments!
Clearly you don't care what we think, as you are considering withdrawing from our Nations League in protest. Really the position of a guy who doesn't care.
Also it seems like you have most TL.net members against you in this too. So a guy abuses a TL.net event, and GG.net should just sit back and pretend like nothing? Why the heck would we want to waste time and resources on players who clearly doesn't give a shit about the community, sportsmanship and respect in general? So they can mess up our events too? No, we do it out of solidarity with TL.net and out of self preservation.
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On December 18 2009 13:26 SonuvBob wrote:
"4. No hacking or abusing.
Penalties for violating rules include disqualification, ban from all future TSLs/TL.net events, ban from TL.net, and death."
From the last TSL's rules thread. I guess we don't have one in the new forum yet. Sounds fair.
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EPT
