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United States24704 Posts
On December 18 2009 12:52 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:36 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished. Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is? The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison. Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house. Common sense seems to be a mystery to some.
Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right.
It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse.
On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning.
When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
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On December 18 2009 13:00 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:
Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this?
No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning. When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
Ok, sorry, it's a bit late and I might have been carried away.
I would say the TL.net staff naively trusted that noone would have cheated, and that ladder system would promote people who are better players/put more effort by playing a lot of games. It's the final examination that revealed their mistake, and that's why we talk about punishments now and not beforehand. In the end they get the right to say "cheaters will be punished" anyway, and no matter how you look at it, they are right with this approach.
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On December 18 2009 13:00 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 12:52 Shikyo wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:36 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished. Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is? The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison. Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house. Common sense seems to be a mystery to some. Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right. It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse. Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning. When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106924
you mean something on this line? or something more specific
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United States24704 Posts
On December 18 2009 13:13 MageKirby wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 13:00 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:52 Shikyo wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:On December 18 2009 12:36 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:09 micronesia wrote:Still, I feel like it should be made clearer ahead of time that abusers will be caught and punished. Does it say "murderers will be caught and punished" on a gun in United States? Do you know what common sense is? The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison. Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. The law is fairly clear about thievery. There is no law about shooting the head of a person named bob smith(arbitary, any relations to real people are accidental and unintentional) on the top floor of a house. Common sense seems to be a mystery to some. Stop being foolish. You can argue any ridiculous claim if you really want to work at it, but that doesn't make it reasonable. Your comparison is bad, your point is bad, any your attempts to make me seem like I am completing lacking in common sense are not making yourself look right. It is obvious if you commit murder you are gonna be under a lot of heat. Not so obvious with violating the TSL. I'm not saying players think there's NO chance of ever getting caught/punished in any way, but it could be slightly more discouraged from the start. However, I qualified my statement by saying the staff can't be too specific or else they will actually encourage more carefully executed abuse. On December 18 2009 12:53 dranjam wrote:On December 18 2009 12:44 micronesia wrote:
The law is fairly clear about murder. There is no law about abusing TSL. Not a very good comparison.
Also your claim about 'common sense' is unworthy of attention. Well, how worthy of attention is your claim about being proactive? Those people's mothers didn't teach them over the course of 15-20 years that cheating may lead to punishment, why do you expect TL.net should be proactive about this? No matter how much you disregard common sense (and plenty of times I would agree with you on this), there's no way you can make me or most people here believe noone should be punished because there wasn't warning. When did I say nobody should be punished? I was just suggesting starting the process earlier, and even then saying I understood why that's difficult. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106924you mean something on this line? or something more specific
More specific. What is the extent of the punishment? But yes it's good that they did that and I agree with it.
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why discourage it more from the start? drug raids dont work if you inform them of them in advance. This lets us figure out the scum of the community and I believe that's a good thing.
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4. No hacking or abusing.
Penalties for violating rules include disqualification, ban from all future TSLs/TL.net events, ban from TL.net, and death.
From the last TSL's rules thread. I guess we don't have one in the new forum yet.
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On December 18 2009 10:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
If banning from TSL was the only thing we did then every player at the #50-60 mark has 100% reason to abuse.
I think a lot of players DID think the only punishment was banning from TSL. Again, if they had known about whatever punishment's about to be announced they might not have done it.
On December 18 2009 13:24 Shikyo wrote:
why discourage it more from the start? drug raids dont work if you inform them of them in advance. This lets us figure out the scum of the community and I believe that's a good thing.
Bad analogy. If someone cheats all the time outside of TSL but never cheats in TSL they should be allowed to play.
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Not a good day to be an abuser.
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On December 18 2009 10:00 tedster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote:
i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =((((( It's not a matter of mercy vs. justice, or revenge, or anything like that. It's about someone who has shown they would willingly compromise a competition and STEAL MONEY FROM PEOPLE WHO LEGITIMATELY EARN IT. Those people cannot be allowed to compete again under the same rules, even if just to discourage future behavior from themselves and others.
what i mean is that the whole basis of this kind of stuff, at least in my mind, is that:
a) obviously they are banned from this, they had an unfair advantage
b) the reason for future banning is (like the connection people are making to murder, which is a highly illogical one by the way, at least the way people are trying to connect it) not because of the actual cheating here, but because of the possibility of future cheating.
as in, if there were a way to absolutely ensure that they would never cheat/abuse/put themselves at an unfair advantage again, then i would have no problem with allowing them back in. yes their actions were horrible, really and truly, but without a some sort of continuous reason i personally do not see reason for continuous punishment. that being said, the idea here is that because they cheated, we can only assume that they may cheat for future events, and thus that assumption is strong enough to ban them from said events, so they dont even get the opportunity to try. whether or not they will is irrelevant, which in a situation such as this one is basically unavoidable in any other way.
THAT being said, i still dislike this whole idea of "if we dont punish harshly then people will still cheat because theyre not afraid!" as the rationale. i understand the truth in this, and that this is the reality of the situation. but when i see people posting that as the actual justification, i think thats a pretty warped way of seeing it; i see the reason behind people not cheating as being not ruining the spirit of equal competition by putting themselves at an unfair advantage, and the reason for punishment being to prevent those who would otherwise inevitably do so from doing so. its not bad logic, just logic in the wrong place is all, and i think having misplaced logic is a bad thing especially when it inflames zeal and spreads like wildfire in such a situation as this.
blech, now i feel silly for ranting, im not really sure what i or tl got out of this. sorry everybody, just trying to clarify my thoughts and make them known!
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On December 18 2009 13:35 jalstar wrote:
If someone cheats all the time outside of TSL but never cheats in TSL they should be allowed to play.
I disagree. If they damage the community why reward them with a seat at the big tournament?
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Osaka27154 Posts
I'm much more interested in the tourney and the hundreds of reps I can watch now than the fate of a handful of fuck up reject abortion assholes. Those people who abused spat in the face of all the people working hard (Im not one of them) on this tourney. FOR FREE.
How many times do you see a group of people willing to organize and put on entertainment for thousands, as well as giving a chance for some young men to win 10k, for absolutely no compensation in return? I would say not very fucking often.
So fuck you abusers. You don't deserve any more front page headlines. On with the show.
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On December 18 2009 13:35 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 10:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
If banning from TSL was the only thing we did then every player at the #50-60 mark has 100% reason to abuse. I think a lot of players DID think the only punishment was banning from TSL. Again, if they had known about whatever punishment's about to be announced they might not have done it.
Yeah, we don't need honest players, just players who have the decency to do a rough risk/reward calculation before deciding if they should cheat.
On December 18 2009 13:35 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 13:24 Shikyo wrote:
why discourage it more from the start? drug raids dont work if you inform them of them in advance. This lets us figure out the scum of the community and I believe that's a good thing. Bad analogy. If someone cheats all the time outside of TSL but never cheats in TSL they should be allowed to play.
Also true, I mean, what do those ladders/tournaments/games of starcraft have in common with TSL's ladder/tournament/games of starcraft
Serious: Ban the shit out of them. For a long time. There is no good reason to let them play. TSL3 will not miss them.
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wow I thought the other sites didnt care o_o. thats really cool thats gg.net is supporting TL with the punishments
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On December 18 2009 13:35 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 10:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
If banning from TSL was the only thing we did then every player at the #50-60 mark has 100% reason to abuse. I think a lot of players DID think the only punishment was banning from TSL. Again, if they had known about whatever punishment's about to be announced they might not have done it.
There was a quote from the rules of the first TSL about cheating/abusing. It was common sense to assume that punishment was going to be at least as severe or more.
What "they might have not done" is irrelevant at this point.
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On December 18 2009 13:35 jalstar wrote:
If someone cheats all the time outside of TSL but never cheats in TSL they should be allowed to play.
Wtf? If we have a clear proof that someone cheats regurlaly, they should not be able to play in a tournament, thats just stupid for some very obvious reasons.
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gj gg.net, i agree that the punishment is too lenient though.
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On December 18 2009 13:54 Manifesto7 wrote:
I'm much more interested in the tourney and the hundreds of reps I can watch now than the fate of a handful of fuck up reject abortion assholes. Those people who abused spat in the face of all the people working hard (Im not one of them) on this tourney. FOR FREE.
How many times do you see a group of people willing to organize and put on entertainment for thousands, as well as giving a chance for some young men to win 10k, for absolutely no compensation in return? I would say not very fucking often.
So fuck you abusers. You don't deserve any more front page headlines. On with the show.
well said.
fuck them all and don't let them take spot light from the actual tournament and the players who all worked hard to make it. they are the ones deserve attention, not the abusers. exclude the abusers from everything, kill them and bury them. dont speak to them, dont touch them. fuck em
show must go ooon! yea yeah.. so, of whom were we talking about again?.. that's right, NOBODY.
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This is a really cool show of solidarity within the community. Good call, gg.net.
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Well, i would make an analogy to Nuremberg´s judgement.
The nazi acted with the law. They couldnt be punished because the law supported them.
It ordered them to do some disgraceful things.
Because of that they escaped punishment?
Anyone with clear sense would argue it was illegal punish them?
Perhaps there´s something more important than have everything written somewhere?
Or that some laws dont even need to be written to have effect?
Fair play is from the essence of any game or competition, and by "fair" you can understand equally conditions for everyone to compete, without any artificial or unnatural advantage of some above others.
So, the argument of the absence of previous law is completelly innadequate in this case.
Also, being notable only turns cheating worst.
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On December 18 2009 09:47 Korn wrote:
This aspect of the Starcraft community hasn't really changed much, it reminds me of discussions in 1999 when the first map hackers/abusers got caught in proper competitions.
List of invalid arguments that were used then and are still being used now:
1) "But they didn't need the abuse/hack to quality..."
That's like arguing that a fast runner who took Gold in the Olympics but was doped shouldn't be punished because he didn't need the doping in the first place. Cheating/abusing is quite simply wrong and unfair and a sign of huge disrespect for the game, the tournament, the tournament organisers and of course all the players who do not cheat or abuse.
2) "But they deserve a second chance / they shouldn't be banned for that long, etc"
Well, apparently they should. It's a huge disgrace that so many players still cheat at Starcraft nowadays. One of the key reasons here is that players simple historically didn't have to fear much. I mean, think about it: there is such a huge culture of leniency that even very decent personalities are starting to cheat.
3) "Oh, but they just abused in this tournament"
Well, this tournament involves a price pool or more than $20.000 USD. If you cheat others out of that money or a part of that money, you'd usually face criminal charges. Just because it's a computer game doesn't make this less worse. All the cheating and abusing takes place at the expensve of all the legit players, who have a right to a fair and proper competition and a fair and proper reward for their performance.
4) "But these players shouldn't be banned, they are so good ..."
The easy truth of the matter is that while they might be very good players, they are very very bad for the entire Starcraft community, the perception of the game and of course any sort of competitive Starcraft that most here enjoy very much.
I think the entire Starcraft, or entire e-Sports community, should endorse a very strict and very consequential anti-cheating and anti-abuse policy.
Well written. Nothing more to add.
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EPT
