On December 20 2009 05:57 Lord_of_Chaos wrote: Why would you have to state before a huge event that there will be consequences if you get caught cheating? Isn't it pretty selfevident that if you get caught cheating you'll be punished? As a lot of people have already pointed out, being DQed is not a punishment (since there is no negative consequence for players who would not have reached the top48 without cheating, but could with cheating) for many players.
Sure it might be a good idea to set up policies that everyone is aware of, but not announcing it beforehand is no reason not to take powerful measures. If you don't abuse or cheat, you don't get in to trouble. It's as simple as that.
The fact that there would be consequences is obvious and don't have to be stated. However what kind of consequences might be good to state. Maybe some of these people wouldn't have abused, had they know it would result in a lifetime ban.
Giving the punnishment is a way to prevent abuse in future events. Stating what kind of punnishment there will be might prevent abuse in the current event. Having both must be the best way don't you think?
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
I actually agree. Te punishment has to send a message but it does not has to go to the extreme either. I guess people need to have a way to clear their names but I think the punishment has to be severe.
On December 18 2009 09:54 bluemanrocks wrote: i mean, seeing as people have been permabanned for being caught hacking/abusing (clazzi, kawaii, etc. etc.) before i cant imagine anything less for an offense on a much grander scale. and as sad as that makes me (ive always been a mercy > justice kind of guy) i can totally understand and support that as punishment seeing it as an alternative to promoting abusing.
still sad though =(((((
Kawaii? Dont you mean SCan, the other streamer who listens to J-Pop
Afaik kawaiirice was banned from TSL for x amount of time because he helped a friend of his abuse in the past TSL. Correct me if I'm wrong.
He was banned because he helped Lastshadow at WCG by being bm obs and messaging him with shit his opponent was doing? Although I do remember the TSL abuse taking place too.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
You hate pricks who think they're "holier than thou". Well guess what, some people are simply more legit than others. It's fucking disrespectful, especially towards the 100% legit people, to do things like this. Imagine Lzgamer for example, people who have never cheated in anything, people who played like 200+ games just to qualify, who basically missed out on qualifications just because of the abuse that was going on. This prevented them from participating in a tournament offering a grand total of 23,000 dollars in prize money, which basically means they stole their chance to earn some money. So yeah, really, you're a perfect example of why abuse is still happening, disqualification from the tournament is nothing, they missed their chance this time, better luck cheating next time. What GG.net does, and what presumeably TL.net will do, is the right thing to do, it'll make people think twice, or even three times, before they'd ever consider abusing again.
You're such a hypocrit it disgusts me. Had this been lesser known players, or "new" players to the community, you'd never make this argument. I don't see ANYONE defending players like Scan or Mercury, because they were nobodys and not famous enough, that suddenly makes their punishment more okay than for example A2's punishment?
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
Glad to hear GG.net banning abusers for a while. I can't wait to hear what TL has planned, I hope its harsh and brutal, and that it strikes fear into those who have thought about abusing.
On December 20 2009 03:38 tonight wrote: I really don't think these guys should be blacklisted from the whole BW community which it sounds like most of you want. For the most part these guys are legit and skilled players who have been around the game for many years. Yes, their actions need to be punished, but we should not just cut them off from the community all together.
People like you are exactly why the tournament had so many abusers. Because in the past, they could get away with it with a slap on the wrist. They need to learn sometime.
Really, I'm the reason people abuse? I never said they shouldn't be banned from tournaments. I just hate all you pricks with your holier than thou approach to it. I just said they shouldn't. be permanently black listed from the community that they have been a part of for a long time. Yes, maybe life time ban them from all money related tournaments, but not every single little thing. Once again, all I said is they should be punished, but not cut off from the community all together.
You hate pricks who think they're "holier than thou". Well guess what, some people are simply more legit than others. It's fucking disrespectful, especially towards the 100% legit people, to do things like this. Imagine Lzgamer for example, people who have never cheated in anything, people who played like 200+ games just to qualify, who basically missed out on qualifications just because of the abuse that was going on. This prevented them from participating in a tournament offering a grand total of 23,000 dollars in prize money, which basically means they stole their chance to earn some money. So yeah, really, you're a perfect example of why abuse is still happening, disqualification from the tournament is nothing, they missed their chance this time, better luck cheating next time. What GG.net does, and what presumeably TL.net will do, is the right thing to do, it'll make people think twice, or even three times, before they'd ever consider abusing again.
You're such a hypocrit it disgusts me. Had this been lesser known players, or "new" players to the community, you'd never make this argument. I don't see ANYONE defending players like Scan or Mercury, because they were nobodys and not famous enough, that suddenly makes their punishment more okay than for example A2's punishment?
MeRz clearly did not see the point why Tonight reacted that way. It was clearly about H's extremely rude response to him. H did just like iG.ClouD who stated earlier that 'people like me ruin the community' based on my first post in this thread. People please watch your tongues and don't let this turn into a flamewar.
And I think Tonight had good points in his reply. Maybe the punishments should treat money tournaments differently than the other tournaments?
Interesting point stated in MeRz's response is that some honest players probably 'panicked' in the last moments of the ladder stage and they decided to try to get few more points, which lead to point losses and them to dropping out from the qualifier stage. Maybe some of the cheaters panicked too? They might have played honestly to that point, but made a 'boneheaded' decision to cheat at the eleventh hour. Please note that this is just speculation from my part and not meant to discredit anyone. Also this is probably a bit oftopic as the discussion was not why the people cheated, but what kind of consequences should there be.
Interesting point stated in MeRz's response is that some honest players probably 'panicked' in the last moments of the ladder stage and they decided to try to get few more points, which lead to point losses and them to dropping out from the qualifier stage. Maybe some of the cheaters panicked too? They might have played honestly to that point, but made a 'boneheaded' decision to cheat at the eleventh hour. Please note that this is just speculation from my part and not meant to discredit anyone. Also this is probably a bit oftopic as the discussion was not why the people cheated, but what kind of consequences should there be.
Well I wasn't going to steal 23,000 dollars from you but then I panicked and stole it.
They shouldn't even think about cheating/abusing in the first place. It doesn't matter if the 'consequences' were stated or not, they abused and deserve to be punished.
I highly doubt players like Reason/A2/DIMAGA/Yosh panicked when seeing they would go to Q2 like OMFG I'm still going to qualify but not through the easiest road hurry up I have to get freewins! Not that panic is an excuse to begin with but I think the guys that abused to get into top 12 did so in a very calculated manner.
Indeed some players seem to have cheated in a very calculative manner. Then there were some, who were just under the top 48 line, and in the last moment tried to cheat their way up. I could argue based on the evidence that some cheaters were calculative, but some were just 'boneheaded' and did not think clearly before acting. This argument may be wrong as I do not have enough information. But in any case cheating is cheating and should always be punished.
On December 18 2009 07:34 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think opposers of this are going to be in for a very very rough surprise once we come with our announcement.
Did I say very.
Apparently punishing the bad ones is part of the show.
Well, in middle age people used to go see people get executed on public place, I guess it is the same kind of entertainement.
I don't like abusers but the whole thing is a bit sad.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
The fact Nony does it for his personal little revenge on something happened months ago is your speculation. F91 cheated on purpose and lied about it like the vast majority of cheaters, and Nony is pointing this out. It's the truth regardless the reason he is saying it for. If we go for speculations then shall I think you are getting angry just because you like F91 to the point of trying to shift the attention from his very recent abuse on TSL2 to some very old stuff no one cares about anymore?
On December 21 2009 01:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: Apparently punishing the bad ones is part of the show.
Well, in middle age people used to go see people get executed on public place, I guess it is the same kind of entertainement.
I don't like abusers but the whole thing is a bit sad.
There's definitely a hidden truth in your statement. Punishment has a couple of motivators: Redemption for victims, removing offenders from society, and a public statement to deter others from doing the same.
The deterring others is clearly going to play a part in making the online environment a cleaner place. Calling what we are trying to do here entertainment is a cheap shot and ignores the actual intention behind it.
On December 18 2009 11:55 ms291052 wrote: F91's case, in particular, was special because he didn't try to cover his abuse, and immediately apologized and withdrew from the tournament. I say ban the other bastards, but F91's punishment needs to be less severe. He's an honest guy, and we all want to see him do well.
ehh f91's case is not different at all. the fact that you are his fanboy does not make his abusing any more acceptable.
What ms291052 said was inaccurate anyway as has been pointed out by someone else already (forgot who). When ash asked F91 about the suspicious games, F91 said they were legit. It wasn't until evidence was brought against him, and it was clear that he was in trouble no matter what he said, that he confessed. When ash made a new thread it certainly didn't read that way. But if you were on TL.net and reading the ladder thread as these games were happening, then it was clear that F91 was dishonest with words as well as actions. Even if he confessed immediately, he's still not an honest guy. Abuse/cheating = dishonesty.
So elegant Nony.
Last time you met F91, he spanked you, and you behaved at the very limit of the complete bad manner. Afterward, instead of the sportmanship everybody expected, you complained about the lag, and that's all people could get from you.
Now, you have your chance to have your little revenge so you are in every thread in TL related to abusing to put more shit on his head that he did himself.
I was supporting you last TSL. I remember this sentence from Mondragon in TL attack: "I don't like his attitude when he loses. I think it's... unapropriate."
You lost a fan. And that has nothing to do with the question wether if F91 had better reason than other to cheat.
...Nony's statement is 100% correct - nothing about it was bm. He simply stated the facts. Your retort is that F91 "spanked" him and Mondi said he was ban manner...good job.
The reason Nony (and others) get upset about F91 specifically is that if it were any other player, he would be publicly disgraced. F91 has received an overwhelming amount of support despite abusing...If you look at the other abuse cases with players who committed the exact same act, the response is not even remotely similar.
On December 21 2009 02:11 Rabbet wrote: It's pretty obvious that Nony is a little butt hurt from F91, I mean every single post he writes is in reference to F91.
I was wondering if gosu gamers's were privy to the evidence or did they just trust TL's procedures to catch the cheaters?
We have posted all the evidence that we have regarding these players in previous threads...not the exact IPs obviously, but it is all public.
EPT
