EPTTSL Player Eligibility and Nongminzerg - Page 17
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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jiabung
United States720 Posts
Now look at all this dumb shit, which easily could have been avoided. Announcing a tournament and not making it clear who can attend, and then making rules excluding people from it afterwards is just stupid and an obvious lack of foresight. | ||
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ZlyKiss
Poland697 Posts
Idra play on this level only because he is training in proteam others dont have this opportunity Nongminzerg play this good because hes from Korea, others didnt have this opportunities | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
On November 14 2009 07:04 jiabung wrote: Would have been best if the rules for TSL2 eligibility actually came out when TSL2 was announced. Now look at all this dumb shit, which easily could have been avoided. Announcing a tournament and not making it clear who can attend, and then making rules excluding people from it afterwards is just stupid and an obvious lack of foresight. This is not what happened. You are making grossly inaccurate accusations that don't fairly depict the situation. Had the rules been flipped the other way there'd be just as many people crying about how nongmin is a korean amateur playing courage, offered proteam testing, playing from Korea and about how its not fair to allow him in a foreigner tournament. I think everyone agrees its not an easy decision to make, so you insulting us, calling us stupid, and saying this "dumb shit" situation is easy to avoid is just not true. Eligibility rules for TSL were not made after the fact to exclude any particular person and we clearly put a lot of thought and consideration into all our decisions. You can disagree, but do it respectfully -- consider this a warning. | ||
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Konni
Germany3044 Posts
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wonkman
United States520 Posts
Details about how the staff decided to start the tournament after hearing about Nongmins trip to use as an excuse to boot him out of the tournament. Further rationalization of such theories and last sentence telling about how leaving this forum would hurt but would rather do it for the sake of fairness. On a more serious note, him not being able to play is quite unfortunate.. because it is probably the only SC tournament with a huge prize that he is even going to be slightly eligable in despite being korean. Unless a TSL 3 were to show up about a week after this one ends ^.^ | ||
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
On November 14 2009 08:37 lac29 wrote: I wouldn't say all the staff were calm ... as you see from some edits. It's a good move though to reopen this thread instead of locking it and going about like nothing happened. At least it allows ppl to vent. And I think most ppl who disagree with the decision DO in fact realize the low to no probability of the rule changing simply because the majority want certain rules/eligibility requirements. I don't think its a foregone conclusion that the majority want nongmin to play. The hundreds that watch his stream are far more likely to post here than the people that don't know him, or would oppose his participation. I don't really know what to say to the people who think there's some conspiracy, like we're somehow rigging the tournament for our "friends" (and those who think we'd do it for Idra, lol you don't know our relationship with Idra  ). Do you really think that we'd risk the credibility and reputation of our tournament and website over something as petty as who gets the final prize? The vast majority of our staff is NOT American. I don't see anyone saying there was a conspiracy that we stacked the TSL1 against Idra when he got the harder (White-Ra and Draco) side of the bracket. | ||
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wonkman
United States520 Posts
On November 14 2009 08:52 Hot_Bid wrote: I don't think its a foregone conclusion that the majority want nongmin to play. The hundreds that watch his stream are far more likely to post here than the people that don't know him, or would oppose his participation. I don't really know what to say to the people who think there's some conspiracy, like we're somehow rigging the tournament for our "friends" (and those who think we'd do it for Idra, lol you don't know our relationship with Idra ). Do you really think that we'd risk the credibility and reputation of our tournament and website over something as petty as who gets the final prize? The vast majority of our staff is NOT American. I don't see anyone saying there was a conspiracy that we stacked the TSL1 against Idra when he got the harder (White-Ra and Draco) side of the bracket.I wasn't there to come up with such a ridiculous conspiracy! And if Nong was at most, a B player would it have changed the decision at all ? :o | ||
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Papperskorg
Sweden15 Posts
 Had to throw my 2 cents even if it doesnt count for much, and thank you all who made all of this possible, sponsors - staff (especially staff) without you this wouldnt be possible. Even thou Im far to busy to participate (or a better wording, as Im a D player and wont have a chance heheh) I had to make this post, even if it comes on deaf ears and no 1 will read it, I still wanted to post it just to show my support and will surely watch all the casts when the real *TSL* tournament starts! So yet again! and Thanks!!!! | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
I mention it because generally the thought with not issuing exceptions like this is that it would open up the floodgates or something for a bunch of people in similar situations to claim entrance. That just doesn't seem likely here. No one will bitch about how it's unfair that nongmin got let in but they didn't, because no one else is in the same situation. Just putting it out there... | ||
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PrideNeverDies
Kazakhstan74 Posts
even though nongmin has just started streaming, you can clearly see his impact on the foreign sc scene by the outcry to let him play. obviously he's a famous enough player in the foreign community for an exception to be made just like idra/ret. in just 3 short months nongmin has made a ton of fans with his streams and is already liked as much if not more than idra. P.S. i'd like to thank the TL staff for keeping the topic open and answering with maturity and not defensiveness. i understand it is their decision; i just wanted to state my opinion on the matter. | ||
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daz
Canada643 Posts
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
On November 13 2009 03:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Let me try to explain that.. though things are getting messy but please hear me out. Ideology for foreigners in Korea: our current rule: This is an ideology based on opportunity and giving up a lot to be in Korea. It has been explained thoroughly and I haven't really seen anyone oppose against it. However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment. As we have made "positive" exemptions in the past, I would not deem it impossible to rule a "negative" exemption sometime as well. To protect the fun for viewers and players a like. It is a very difficult subject maybe in the future we will be faced with more difficult choices. This is not a statement of fact. Please do not refer to it in the future to make claims. ------------------------------------------------- This is the last post I make. There has been enough - very open - discussion to be aware of all sides. I understand many people want to see him play but I would ask for understanding our decision as well. I hope you know we mean well. It's funny how you admins state the rules of being a member of the foreign community. We, your members, are the community. You can't speak for all of us in that sense. But I agree this is your tournament and I have to accept your unfortunate decisionmaking in this case. | ||
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Cowazon
Canada58 Posts
What is the meaning behind the eligibility rules? Leaving aside the obvious first rule regarding lag, the other two rules basically state: - Grew up outside Korea/China. - Currently resides outside Korea/China AND isn't a progamer. First off, let's look at the second rule. Why exclude progamers? I'm sure plenty of people would love to see their favourite progamer play against their favourite amateur. Unless I'm horribly wrong, the reasoning behind that is that the rule is there to set a skill cap on the tournament. With a substantial cash prize there (plenty of motivation for a progamer to play), it's only natural that an amateur has very little chance against a progamer (especially in Starcraft where the skill gap between progamers and amateurs is so huge). Progamers have plenty of tournaments with their own cash prizes, so this tournament is clearly meant for amateurs. Obviously, the first part of that rule makes it impossible for progamers to snag that prize by hiding their identity and playing on an account that isn't immediately recognized as their own. Now let's look at the first rule. Why exclude people who grew up in countries with a pro scene? It would seem the exact same reasoning is being applied here, limiting the skill level in the tournament. If this is indeed the reason behind the rule's creation...it's completely pointless to have such a rule in the first place. Where somebody grew up is not the only factor that determines skill, thus making the rule completely pointless. People who grew up in China/Korea and are not progamers exist. People who grew up outside China/Korea and are progamers exist. The point of these rules is to draw the line on how skilled one can be to play in this tournament and not be a clear favourite to destroy everyone and walk away with the money. Regardless of where such a player grew up, they would be living in Korea/China and likely playing on a professional starcraft team, thus breaking the second rule anyways. The first rule has no purpose and shouldn't even be included among the other ones. Yes, Nongmin still wouldn't qualify under the second rule because he would be living in Korea at the time of the TSL. Idra didn't qualify under that rule last TSL ("6. No Korean IP addresses") yet was allowed to play anyways. Idra didn't qualify under that rule this TSL either, and still is allowed to play. That exception was made on the basis that he is a part of the foreign community, despite moving to Korea to play professionally. That obviously makes sense...just because he is playing Starcraft at a professional level doesn't mean he all of a sudden has become detached from the foreign community. Why is Nongmin not considered a part of the foreign community as well? He plays on ICCUP. He streams games. He regularly chats with Teamliquid forum members (maybe not on the forum itself but on his stream). I would argue that Nongmin is currently more of a part of the foreign community than the korean community. If playing games of Starcraft and socializing with other members of the foreign community does not make you one of them...what does? Owning a piece of paper that legally qualifies you as a citizen of a country that isn't Korea/China? If someone was born in Korea/China, moved to the US at a young age, and moved between Canada/US every 2 years (thus denying them the possibility of becoming a citizen in either country), would we conclude that he/she is not a member of the exclusive club that is the foreign starcraft community? The way I see it, regardless whether this is defined to be as an "amateur tournament" or a "foreigner tournament", Nongmin should still be included. | ||
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maleum
Poland8 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On November 14 2009 17:13 daz wrote: Its really stupid to let idra play. Hes a progamer and has been one for a year. Just because hes failed to make it anywhere doesn't mean we should let him into 'amateur' tournaments. I mean why don't we just let failed korean pros in as well? Because of the colour of their skin? I see the "grew up in an area without a proscene" rule but seriously it is completely irrelevant how he got to BECOME a pro, all that matters is that he is one now. It was understandable when the guy had just gotten to Korea but hes been there for over a year now playing professionally full-time and it's ridiculous to keep letting him into these tournaments. Seriously when you make the rules like this you make it seem more like racism then enforcing fair play. "Professional gamers are allowed to participate as long as they are not of a certain race." Fucking ridiculous. Thanks for your valuable contribution. Do both of us a favor and remove yourself from the site ran by racists making fucking ridiculously stupid decisions. | ||
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maleum
Poland8 Posts
On November 14 2009 17:13 daz wrote: Its really stupid to let idra play. Hes a progamer and has been one for a year. Just because hes failed to make it anywhere doesn't mean we should let him into 'amateur' tournaments. I mean why don't we just let failed korean pros in as well? Because of the colour of their skin? I see the "grew up in an area without a proscene" rule but seriously it is completely irrelevant how he got to BECOME a pro, all that matters is that he is one now. It was understandable when the guy had just gotten to Korea but hes been there for over a year now playing professionally full-time and it's ridiculous to keep letting him into these tournaments. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On November 15 2009 00:43 maleum wrote: Idra isn't really part of the foreigner community now. He participates in pretty much all foreign tournaments and posts regularly on TL. | ||
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
On November 15 2009 01:24 Holgerius wrote: He participates in pretty much all foreign tournaments and posts regularly on TL. So? It's not like he does it with manner. One has to ask - is it really contributing to the community? I know I hate that prick and couldn't care less about his actions in korea, as long as he stays there he is their problem not ours. I say: Let them have his freckly manners! | ||
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