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On November 13 2009 03:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete. It is a foreigner tournament. It is easy to mistake wording things as delicate as this. Although I have not found the quotes you are talking about.
It was explicitly called an amateur tournament in an earlier post. If it is simply a tournament with foreigners with no question as to experience then that is that.
On November 13 2009 03:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On the "He would be allowed to compete if he was in the US to play"... This just really does not seem right... You know who he is now and that shouldn't change based on where he moves to. Give him a secret word or set up a web cam or something to use in South Korea if you are truely worried about it being a question of identity. It is NOT a question of identity. Nowhere in the thread has that been said or implied. What has been said is that the rule - "He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team" - is partially based on the question of identity. It has nothing to do with the situation at hand. This motivation has been brought up because people have questioned the rules.
On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
It is heavily implied that it is the case however when you posted this in response to his elgibility...
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On November 13 2009 03:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +So if IdrA goes on the A team he isn't allowed to play? That doesn't make sense to me. His situation didn't change over time except for the fact that he got better. If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever. Btw, don't get me wrong, I want IdrA to play in the TSL; he gave up alot just to get better at this game and deserves the price money from every tournament he wins. Let me try to explain that.. though things are getting messy but please hear me out. Ideology for foreigners in Korea: our current rule: This is an ideology based on opportunity and giving up a lot to be in Korea. It has been explained thoroughly and I haven't really seen anyone oppose against it. However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment. As we have made "positive" exemptions in the past, I would not deem it impossible to rule a "negative" exemption sometime as well. To protect the fun for viewers and players a like. It is a very difficult subject maybe in the future we will be faced with more difficult choices. This is not a statement of fact. Please do not refer to it in the future to make claims. ------------------------------------------------- This is the last post I make. There has been enough - very open - discussion to be aware of all sides. I understand many people want to see him play but I would ask for understanding our decision as well. I hope you know we mean well.
+ Show Spoiler +
Thanks for clarifying.
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Braavos36402 Posts
On November 13 2009 03:56 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 03:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete. It is a foreigner tournament. It is easy to mistake wording things as delicate as this. Although I have not found the quotes you are talking about. It was explicitly called an amateur tournament in an earlier post. If it is simply a tournament with foreigners with no question as to experience then that is that.
That is indeed the case, as we have plenty of foreigners who have had pro-experience. For example, not just Idra, but Draco, Legionnaire, Nony, etc have all been influenced by their time in Korea, some more than others.
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On November 12 2009 11:51 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 11:45 T.O.P. wrote:
It feels like the rules were made specifically to stop Nongmin from playing in the TSL. They were made to stop the zillions of amateur Koreans who have easy access to the pro scene from playing. Unfortunately, with Nongmin being in Korea, and having grown up in Korea (and having even been offered test games with KT), there's not much differentiating him from them.
This is all I needed to hear. It should be edited in the first post because it's makes sense out of everything.
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One point that I think is left out is the idea of having the opportunity for quality (be it money/good players) SC tournaments. Granted I like Idra and Ret, but they (and anyone playing in Korea) have many more opportunities compared to the foreigners not in Korea.
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On November 13 2009 03:48 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment.
I think progamers are "affiliated with a SC progaming team" so they would not be able to play in the TSL.
This is consistent with the rules.
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Stop your arguing, this is their site, not ours. T.T
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
It's your site too. Just we make the rules for tournaments this big LOL.
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On November 13 2009 02:50 JWD wrote:
Edit: rereading previous pages, I realize I have nothing original to add to this discussion. The eligibility rules are completely sensible given the TSL's goal of promoting foreign BW players and in general professional BW outside of Korea.
Yet it attracted idra and ret, both have much higher chance of winning than everyone else (remember idra at valor?). If nongminzerg is being excluded because he could possibly "ruin" the event, I don't see how idra and ret cannot. Especially idra and his altitude towards other foreign players not currently in Korea.
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I do not feel that the fact that he is moving back to Korea for a few months should warrant being ineligible - I think that it'd be better if it was something along the lines of "has not lived in a country that has a professional SC scene for the past five years" or something like that.
I don't agree with the decision to keep Nongmin out of the tournament, although I do realize that it is a hard decision and that the admins are looking out for the interests of a lot of people in this matter, so I guess I have to respect their decision.
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if you have bills to pay you shouldnt be disappointed
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On November 13 2009 07:38 G0dly wrote:
I do not feel that the fact that he is moving back to Korea for a few months should warrant being ineligible - I think that it'd be better if it was something along the lines of "has not lived in a country that has a professional SC scene for the past five years" or something like that.
The way I see it, it is more like:
1. If you are effectively Korean (not talking about race, but culturally), then you should not be allowed to play in this TSL.
2. However, if you are effectively Korean but located somewhere with a non-Korean IP, it would be extremely unpractical to ban you from the TSL, since it will be ridiculous to check your nationality, background, etc.
The reason why Nongminzerg is prohibited from playing is because he is effectively Korean, not because he happens to be living in Korea. It's not that he becomes ineligible if he moves to Korea, but more along the lines of: if he stays in the USA, he becomes exempt (because it would be impractical to ban those like him).
Likewise, Idra and Ret are not effectively Korean, so they are allowed to play in the TSL even though they have a Korean IP. The reason why this is reasonable to enforce is because presumably there are far less non-Koreans in Korea than there are Koreans in non-Korean countries (in terms of competitive starcraft players at least).
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My guess is you don't quite give a shit on users opinion, specially on the opinion of someone that reads tl for more then a year and has an account for a month or two, but just like I felt the need to tell Rekrul something about cars(and made the account) I do feel the need to tell you my opinion on this issue.
In my opinion TSL is meant to be the toughest competition in Starcraft for a foreigner, Nongmin is to me a foreigner, same as Idra is. If we are talking about who has an advantage, then Idra has nothing to do with this competition. So as long as Idra is playing, the worst thing to do would be to not allow Nongmin.
After all it is your website, your competition and your decision to take, same as it is mine decision to read TL like before or quit reading it, to not watch TSL2, or to change my mind about registering on PokerStrategy. I am sure losing me it's like deciding to not see a re-raised flop in poker with 92 offsuited, but what if there are more people that would suddenly won't find this site as interesting as before because of your decisions?
Ohh, and one more reason for which I posted. A while ago I wanted to sponsor a Starcraft tournament in my own country but after daily buzzing one of the staff and receiveing no word from him I just changed my mind. Now I am sure I wouldn't do that again(search people to offer money to increase the prize pool of the tournaments they organize).
Cheers!
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no offense, but i'd say a vast majority (if not all) of TL users wont stop coming due to a single issue like this. I'd like to think we'll just learn from our mistakes if we did make the wrong decision.
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Totally uncool, Nongmin should be in this tournament, no point arguing though teamliquid staff runs the tournment and they can do whatever they want, even if majority of the site users think otherwise
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How is idra allowed to play if he is affiliated with CJ?
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On November 13 2009 13:47 TheDoctor wrote:
Totally uncool, Nongmin should be in this tournament, no point arguing though teamliquid staff runs the tournment and they can do whatever they want, even if majority of the site users think otherwise
You have to account for the fact that if a ruling favors people of a certain opinion, their voices won't be as loudly heard. Though I still think that a majority on this site does think otherwise, but it's not as decisive as this thread would indicate.
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I spent the last half hour reading this thread instead of going to bed. The sea of posts that were written without reading the OP really bogged the thread down by making the "uproar" seem bigger than it really is.
I would have liked to see Nongmin play, and hopefully he stays in the US so he can, but I agree with the Staff decision. All of this breaks down to: this is a tournament for foreigners. The term "foreigners" has been defined by the staff in a very fair way so we're going to enjoy TSL2 as a fantastic foreigner tournament.
Let's get a countdown started for laddering! 
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