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On November 13 2009 02:44 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 02:42 SonuvBob wrote:On November 13 2009 02:30 xMiragex wrote:On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA? We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p Give the same treatment to Nongmin.
+1
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On November 13 2009 02:44 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 02:42 SonuvBob wrote:On November 13 2009 02:30 xMiragex wrote:On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA? We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p Give the same treatment to Nongmin.
At least make some attempt to understand our reasoning. Potential smurfing has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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now we get contradictory. then why would he be allowed to play if he were in the US during TSL?
i believe i understand the reasoning being used but not the "logic"...or the other way around im not so sure myself
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On November 13 2009 02:44 T.O.P. wrote:
Give the same treatment to Nongmin. You really gotta stop pushing it. Nothing that was said about Nongmin anywhere has anything to do with the identification of his play. Your posts show up everywhere without any sense of reading or trying to make accurate statements. It is very tiring.
now we get contradictory. then why would he be allowed to play if he were in the US during TSL?
i believe i understand the reasoning being used but not the "logic"...or the other way around im not so sure myself
He would be allowed to play in the US because our rules state:
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
Part of the reason for allowing people outside of Korea to play is enforcement of identity. The reason for not allowing people to play in Korea has got nothing to do with enforcement of identity and thus has no relevance to the situation at hand.
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United States12607 Posts
Edit: rereading previous pages, I realize I have nothing original to add to this discussion. The eligibility rules are completely sensible given the TSL's goal of promoting foreign BW players and in general professional BW outside of Korea.
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On November 13 2009 02:50 JWD wrote:
The TSL is a tournament by foreigners and for foreigners, with its ultimate goal the promotion of professional BW and BW players outside of Korea. Thus it breaks with the spirit of the tournament, its organizers, and its sponsors to allow entry from players who originated in Korea's BW scene.
Ok so now we're getting somewhere. Now why was nongmin's current residence and residence during the TSL used as a reason of debate whether he'd be eligble or not?
On November 13 2009 02:50 JWD wrote:
Edit: rereading previous pages, I realize I have nothing original to add to this discussion. The eligibility rules are completely sensible given the TSL's goal of promoting foreign BW players and in general professional BW outside of Korea.
plz dont back off. No i'm not caling you out, no im not trolling. I just seriously (like most likely most of us) want a "straighter" answer per se.
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On November 13 2009 02:53 xMiragex wrote:
Ok so now we're getting somewhere. Now why was nongmin's current residence and residence during the TSL used as a reason of debate whether he'd be eligble or not?
I'll tell you again, and again. Because apparently you refuse to read the topic.
Part of the reason for allowing people outside of Korea to play is enforcement of identity. The reason for not allowing people to play in Korea has got nothing to do with enforcement of identity and thus has no relevance to the situation at hand.
The allowance of people (Koreans) playing outside of Korea is partially based on the impossibility of enforcing otherwise. It is not ideology you should be referring to when we say he is allowed to play from the US. Like explained before it is impossible not to allow people of certain nationalities to play from other countries. So we must allow them. It's simple as that. Some rules are made on ideology and others on practicality. You should not confuse one with the other, especially not when it has been explained over and over 10 times before.
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On November 13 2009 02:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 02:53 xMiragex wrote:
Ok so now we're getting somewhere. Now why was nongmin's current residence and residence during the TSL used as a reason of debate whether he'd be eligble or not? I'll tell you again, and again. Because apparently you refuse to read the topic. Show nested quote +Part of the reason for allowing people outside of Korea to play is enforcement of identity. The reason for not allowing people to play in Korea has got nothing to do with enforcement of identity and thus has no relevance to the situation at hand. The allowance of people (Koreans) playing outside of Korea is partially based on the impossibility of enforcing otherwise. It is not ideology you should be referring to when we say he is allowed to play from the US.
This brings us to the very difficult issue of Nongminzerg. Nongmin was born in Korea and moved to the United States for high school. While Nongmin was offered KTF training matches, he was never officially affiliated with any professional team. When Nongmin first asked us if he could play in the TSL, we replied that he would be allowed to play, provided he resided inside the United States. Nongmin informed us that he would be moving back to Korea for the duration of the TSL, possibly until the summer of 2010 -- which would make him ineligible to play, unless we grant him a special exception.
the last part is from the OP
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Well now im confused as to why nongmin can't compete. Is it because it is "impossible" to create such rules w/o tsl being flooded by koreans? But in reality staff wants him to compete but can't because that will open up for more koreans from korea. So for that 0.1% that the rule wont apply to as it should i have made an addition.
This is what the rules could look like:
A player is eligible to play in the TSL if:
* He does not have connection lag that would significantly impact quality of play; AND EITHER:
* He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
* He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
* Exceptions can be made if [a player has been unable to take part/benefit from the korean scene and has (instead?) taken part in the foreign scene/community.]
That's the best i can come up with, but really you can put whatever you want in those brackets, for example: [tl deems it reasonable to invite another player into the tournament], [a player is unable to participate in the korean scene], [a player is part of the foreign scene].
The reason i propose this addition to the current rule-set
The TSL is suppose to be a tournament for the foreign scene. Nongmins is indeed (imo) a part of the foreign scene since he lives in the US and posts/streams at tl (as well as being member of a foregn team), and he has been unable to compete in the korean starcraft scene and has instead been involved in the foreigner community. Since he will only stay in korea for a short amount of time he still wont be able to take part on the korean scene. He is for all intents and purposes a "foreigner" or atleast in the exact same situation as foreigners, therefore he should be able to participate in foreigner tournamnets imo. I think it is really unfortunate and unnecessart for him to uneligible because of the fact that the rules cant be written any better.
For some reason(s) TL feels as they cannot make an exception to their current rules and invite him despite note being eligible, even though they would want him to participate they don't see anyway to practically make this happen w/o tsl suffering from it (or atleast that is my interpretation of the situation from reding this thread). Imo rules shouldn't be looked at so strictly, and nongmin should be able to participate anyway because he is not the one the rules are there to exclude (ot this is how i understood it anyway). But since TL does not want to make that exception we must make the rules better. "What if korean X does Y" is a slippery slope argument wich can be made as to why we shouldnt make any exceptions to the rules.
Therefore i came up with a ruleset that could include korean born people who does not and can not (wether they want or not) paritcipate in the korean scene. The addition wont let in any koreans that shouldnt be in there and cannot be exploited/abused, but still grants those 0.1% to play. And even if it could we have the fact that it says exceptions can be made not will be made. Besides it is much easier to just move out of korea if you want to participate in TSL2 then do all you need to do to be one of the "exceptions". And to me it's pretty clear wich situations will allow an exception to possibly be made.
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Will F91 not be invited to defend his Liquibition title? Or is that right limited to a single Liquibition season?
Actually, seeing a F91 vs Nongminzerg Liquibition would be most interesting. 
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On November 13 2009 02:58 xMiragex wrote:
the last part is from the OP
read: "partially"
The other part is ideology of being incapable of putting an amount of years, English knowledge and whatnot on someones stay. You're reading into stuff.
The TSL is suppose to be a tournament for the foreign scene. Nongmins is indeed (imo) a part of the foreign scene since he lives in the US and posts/streams at tl (as well as being member of a foregn team), and he has been unable to compete in the korean starcraft scene and has instead been involved in the foreigner community. Since he will only stay in korea for a short amount of time he still wont be able to take part on the korean scene. He is for all intents and purposes a "foreigner" or atleast in the exact same situation as foreigners, therefore he should be able to participate in foreigner tournamnets imo. I think it is really unfortunate and unnecessart for him to uneligible because of the fact that the rules cant be written any better.
For some reason(s) TL feels as they cannot make an exception to their current rules and invite him despite note being eligible, even though they would want him to participate they don't see anyway to practically make this happen w/o tsl suffering from it (or atleast that is my interpretation of the situation from reding this thread). Imo rules shouldn't be looked at so strictly, and nongmin should be able to participate anyway because he is not the one the rules are there to exclude (ot this is how i understood it anyway). But since TL does not want to make that exception we must make the rules better. "What if korean X does Y" is a slippery slope argument wich can be made as to why we shouldnt make any exceptions to the rules.
I have no comment to this. When discussing exemption we have made our reasoning clear as can be found in the OP and rest of the thread, but I also think opposite views have legit reasoning. That means you have valid points as well as the other side has valid points. Bringing them up again puts nothing new to the table because these are all things we have weighed against each other.
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On November 13 2009 03:01 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:read: "partially" The other part is ideology of being incapable of putting an amount of years, English knowledge and whatnot on someones stay. You're reading into stuff. Show nested quote +The TSL is suppose to be a tournament for the foreign scene. Nongmins is indeed (imo) a part of the foreign scene since he lives in the US and posts/streams at tl (as well as being member of a foregn team), and he has been unable to compete in the korean starcraft scene and has instead been involved in the foreigner community. Since he will only stay in korea for a short amount of time he still wont be able to take part on the korean scene. He is for all intents and purposes a "foreigner" or atleast in the exact same situation as foreigners, therefore he should be able to participate in foreigner tournamnets imo. I think it is really unfortunate and unnecessart for him to uneligible because of the fact that the rules cant be written any better.
For some reason(s) TL feels as they cannot make an exception to their current rules and invite him despite note being eligible, even though they would want him to participate they don't see anyway to practically make this happen w/o tsl suffering from it (or atleast that is my interpretation of the situation from reding this thread). Imo rules shouldn't be looked at so strictly, and nongmin should be able to participate anyway because he is not the one the rules are there to exclude (ot this is how i understood it anyway). But since TL does not want to make that exception we must make the rules better. "What if korean X does Y" is a slippery slope argument wich can be made as to why we shouldnt make any exceptions to the rules. I have no comment to this. When discussing exemption we have made our reasoning clear as can be found in the OP and rest of the thread, but I also think opposite views have legit reasoning. That means you have valid points as well as the other side has valid points. Bringing them up again puts nothing new to the table because these are all things we have weighed against each other.
i can bring up more, but thats enough for me i suppose. Thanks
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I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete.
On the "He would be allowed to compete if he was in the US to play"... This just really does not seem right... You know who he is now and that shouldn't change based on where he moves to. Give him a secret word or set up a web cam or something to use in South Korea if you are truely worried about it being a question of identity.
Reading over the thoughts of everyone and TL's view on this my own opinion is that if you want a strong amateur foreigner competition it seems foolish to keep a good competitor out on these grounds.
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I've read in this thread that this is meant as an amateur tournament and then a tournament for foreigners. As a complete outsider to this it would see that Idra isn't an amateur and would have a better presence at the tournament as a guest announcer for matches or something like that. Nongmins would seemingly still be allowed to compete.
It is a foreigner tournament. It is easy to mistake wording things as delicate as this. Although I have not found the quotes you are talking about.
On the "He would be allowed to compete if he was in the US to play"... This just really does not seem right... You know who he is now and that shouldn't change based on where he moves to. Give him a secret word or set up a web cam or something to use in South Korea if you are truely worried about it being a question of identity.
It is NOT a question of identity. Nowhere in the thread has that been said or implied. What has been said is that the rule - "He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team" - is partially based on the question of identity. It has nothing to do with the situation at hand. This motivation has been brought up because people have questioned the rules.
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Denmark2980 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:05 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote:
This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL. If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL? REALLY???!!!!
So if IdrA goes on the A team he isn't allowed to play? That doesn't make sense to me. His situation didn't change over time except for the fact that he got better. If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever. Btw, don't get me wrong, I want IdrA to play in the TSL; he gave up alot just to get better at this game and deserves the price money from every tournament he wins.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On November 13 2009 03:33 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 13:05 Kennigit wrote:On November 12 2009 13:00 lac29 wrote:
This is just the feeling I get, but I think If Idra was on the A team on CJ, TL staff would still let him play TSL. If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL? REALLY???!!!! If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever.
No we don't.
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UHG.
I CANNOT wait for this to begin. Everyday I'm spamming f5 to see if there is more info (yes, I know there is a timeline).
It is going to be so badass. Huge shoutout to TL and of course PokerStrategy.com. This is made completely of 100% badass.
I also agree with the original post. I think that is a very fair set of rules.
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There is nothing to discuss , TSL is made for the foreign community. there would obviously be no problem if nongmin was a C level player , but if he plays TSL he's got a good chance of winning it, and of course TSL admins don't want a korean to win their foreign tour.
By the way I don't get why Idra with such an advantage on everyone else (he's the only professionnal player allowed there ! ) has the chance to play TSL. I mean he's already making money from starcraft and now TSL gives him a shot at 10 000$...
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So if IdrA goes on the A team he isn't allowed to play? That doesn't make sense to me. His situation didn't change over time except for the fact that he got better. If you allow him now, you'll have to allow him forever. Btw, don't get me wrong, I want IdrA to play in the TSL; he gave up alot just to get better at this game and deserves the price money from every tournament he wins.
Let me try to explain that.. though things are getting messy but please hear me out. Ideology for foreigners in Korea: our current rule:
He grew up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene; OR
This is an ideology based on opportunity and giving up a lot to be in Korea. It has been explained thoroughly and I haven't really seen anyone oppose against it.
However realism also tells us if a guy in Korea is winning OSL/MSL and earning thousands from sponsorships, to put him in a TSL will ruin it for every single person playing. And every person watching. Is this worth it to you as long as we stay consistent? To think right now our field would stand a chance against someone at the skill level of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu in bo5s is unrealistic. It would be someone joining and picking up the prize with no effort or entertainment.
As we have made "positive" exemptions in the past, I would not deem it impossible to rule a "negative" exemption sometime as well. To protect the fun for viewers and players a like. It is a very difficult subject maybe in the future we will be faced with more difficult choices.
This is not a statement of fact. Please do not refer to it in the future to make claims.
-------------------------------------------------
This is the last post I make. There has been enough - very open - discussion to be aware of all sides. I understand many people want to see him play but I would ask for understanding our decision as well. I hope you know we mean well.
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"Foreigner" is a word that can be used interchangeably with "non Asian." I'm curious to what nationality/ethnicity will reign in SC 2; I'd hate to not be able to keep track of who a foreigner is. Once you become pro, not only do you get payed to play SC, but you are going to have a huge advantage on any "foreign" player that just plays on iccup. In SC 2 when perhaps a lot more "foreign" players become pro, would you still have a tourney that didn't exclude pro gamers? Everyone loves an underdog story, but in the future it would seem impossible to give amateur players a fair chance.
In short: this way of thinking seems problematic in the future, so may as well think about addressing it now.
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EPT
