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Alright, since none of this discussion is going to change anything for TSL2, let's talk about this "if he has obtained foreigner recognition by TSL3, he can play" requirement. Since livestreaming was deemed inadequate, it seems that "he has not participated in foreign tournaments" is one of the only explicit ways to quantify "foreigner recognition".
It's really not solely going to be about foreigner recognition. For example (unrelated to the discussion) I'm sure if Sea would be livestreaming and had 5000 posts on TL.net that everyone would support him joining the tournament as well. If he can join then the next Korean can also start streaming and make the same claims. That's what foreigner recognition can do if put into exact rules.
He currently resides in a location without a professional StarCraft scene AND is not affiliated with a professional StarCraft team
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
But when TSL3 rolls around, since he can't play in TSL2, how will the situation change with regards to this "recognition"?
If he's in the USA like he says he might be there's no problem. If not however and it is going to be about an exemption again it's very very hard to put a number or definition to it. It will have to be dealt with accordingly when it happens.
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On November 12 2009 23:32 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 23:08 timmeh wrote:
I understand that the logic is very clear to anyone who was involved in the decision-making process. After all, you made the decision. The exceptions given to Idra and ret are arbitrary at best when considering nongmin's predicament. As a result your rules are not completely airtight and don't stand up to scrutiny, hence the discussion and uproar. Also, calling people arguing against your decision/rules 'retarded' and 'stupid' does not really help the decisions or your own credibility.
Either way, as organizer you can pretty much do as you please, as such I respect the fact that a decision has been been made, but not the decision itself or what lead to the decision. I'm fairly sure that you will find that we have not called those arguing against these decisions retards or idiots (unless perhaps you take one or two comments out of context). Also, we do not believe that our exceptions regarding either Idra or ret were arbitrary, and you can see our motivations for making an exception for them throughout the thread. This does not mean that our reasons for allowing them to play cannot be criticized, in fact, we expected this level of criticism regardless of our decision as we were well aware of both sides of the argument. However, there is an important difference between making an arbitrary decision, and choosing the best solution in a difficult situation. As such, we stand by our decision, and we believe that we have made the best possible decision for the situation.
True, the exceptions are not arbitrary considering what a foreign tournament is trying to achieve. And I can clearly see that. But the rules are laid out in such a manner that the exceptions appear as arbitrary - if not that, then at least very biased - because in your decision-making you are constantly weighing
(a) has lived in X for Y length
(b)has/had access to certain strarcraft material/scene/help/training etc.
and possibly (c) nationality against each other.
Now the following point is completely subjective on my part. But I think you would have done yourself a lot easier if the ruleset just said:
Eligible players are:
1) Players with a non-Korean nationality
2) Right of admission reserved concerning special case scenarios for Koreans nationals outside of Korea (such as nongmin in this case)
I understand that if it were laid out like this, there a certain implications as well, not to forget the ensuing forum whine
Either way. I think promoting the foreign scene is awesome and it is definitely not what I have a gripe with but the rule-set instead.
On the personal insult bit. I understand he didn't literally say who is retarded or trolling (my bad on the stupid part), but his comment bears certain implications - either you are trolling [which I doubt because I believe most people have sincere intentions concerning this topic] or your response is retarded. If I misinterpreted this, my apologies.
Bottom line, I think it is a shame that nongmin cannot compete. It is good that you stand by your decision, and I have no intention to sway it either way.
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On November 12 2009 23:54 nayumi wrote:
How about
All Korean citizens are not allowed to play.
Considering this is a foreign tournament, and foreign pretty much means "non-Korean".
P/S: I'm not sure about the Chinese though. They do have professional SC over there.
That's beyond stupid because you can get a Korean citizenship by just having Korean biological parents even if you weren't born in Korea.
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Now the following point is completely subjective on my part. But I think you would have done yourself a lot easier if the ruleset just said:
Eligible players are:
1) Players with a non-Korean nationality
You gotta think of the bigger picture. Enforceability. A Korean playing from the USA is impossible to exclude if he fakes a passport. To pretend to be able to uphold such a rule of nationality no matter what the IP location is going to lead to enormous complications. It simply cannot be done.
Like I said I have not seen anyone come up with a better set of rules for the things we aspire. People come up with "how the rules should be" but it is often unfortunately a very shortsighted argument.
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On November 13 2009 00:07 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +I realise this is a difficult decision with good arguments for both sides, but why is him being in Korea at the time so much of an issue? It becomes an issue because it's against the rules. I have yet to see anyone come up with a better set of rules. If you have been reading the topic you probably agree that the set of rules is a very realistic representation of the ideology of TSL. The rules are good, but of course no rule applies 100% according to its intent, and thus we have carefully looked into this case. Show nested quote +
It seems like the deciding factors should be how long he's lived in the states, how involved he is with the foreign scene and following from that whether or not he's viewed as a member of the foreign community. Not letting him play because he happens to be on holiday in Korea at the time seems like an arbitrary criterion to solve a difficult problem
This is all explained by Hot_Bid in the OP, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. Arbitrary would be not looking into it at all and sticking by your rules no matter what. That's not what we have done so it is not arbitrary. These things you bring up are also brought up in our explanation.
Eh, sorry nevermind, I didn't read the OP carefully enough. I thought your line of reasoning was that you were willing to make an exception for nogmin if he remained in the states, but not willing to make it if he went to Korea. Didn't realize you actually decided against making an exception for him, but if he remained in the states, he'd be allowed to play anyway according to the rules.
I guess the only argument that can be made against your decision then is that looking at all the replies this has generated it seems as though people already feel very strongly that nongmin belongs to the foreign (and TL) scene and letting him play would both be interesting for the viewers and 'help promote the foreign SC'.
Also, I don't think we need to be worried about more Koreans wanting to play if you allowed nongmin in. He's a unique case and the chances that semi-progamers are going to make livestreams and move out of SK so they can play in TSL3 are probably slim. :p
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Braavos36374 Posts
Exactly -- how do you expect us to enforce "no players with Korean nationality."
"Please state your nationality -- if you are Korean, you won't be allowed to play. All Koreans please tell us if you are Korean so we can ban you."
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A simple 1) anyone living/playing IN Korea (include China if you want) or 2) anyone with professional SC associations cannot play seems more than reasonable. Then give exceptions to whoever you deem worthy.
And the part about enforcing someone living in USA and is a Korean professional or similar situation ... well in any set of rules you wouldn't be able to 100% verify and exclude such a player from the tourney.
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Tough call. I was actually hoping to cheer on Nongminzerg in TSL2, but this decision makes sense. I'll just tune in for Liquibition :D~
EDIT: I just read in the closed thread that nongmin's going to JHU once he gets back from Korea. Anyone know if that's true? T_T
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idra and ret should be allowed to play if they don't reside in Korea during the tournament
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 13 2009 01:11 _awake_ wrote:
idra and ret should be allowed to play if they don't reside in Korea during the tournament
Have you read? Idra and Ret are allowed to play even though they reside in Korea. They are granted a special exception because they made important contributions to the foreigner community. This thread is about why Nongmin was not granted a special exception.
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On November 13 2009 01:01 lac29 wrote:
A simple 1) anyone living/playing IN Korea (include China if you want) or 2) anyone with professional SC associations cannot play seems more than reasonable. Then give exceptions to whoever you deem worthy.
Yeah, that wouldn't generate a massive shitstorm :p
On November 12 2009 15:04 lac29 wrote:
All my posts were deleted and I thought I was more than reasonable with the wording of my posts. Oh well, I just view it as some ppl don't take criticism very well =/.
Edit: I had checked before and did not see them in either thread. Apparently someone moved them so now they're missing.
There's 5 of them on page 5.
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On November 13 2009 01:20 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 01:01 lac29 wrote:
A simple 1) anyone living/playing IN Korea (include China if you want) or 2) anyone with professional SC associations cannot play seems more than reasonable. Then give exceptions to whoever you deem worthy. Yeah, that wouldn't generate a massive shitstorm :p
But the logic would make more sense imo. It's easier for me to see why you would deem Idra more worthy since his contribution to TL (has been greater than nonmingzerg) than the current reasoning and awkward rules (imo) that are a result. The public's perspective would (again imo) be a lot less negative if you were to go that route in rule wording instead of the one you actually used.
Then again, I personally don't think Idra, Ret, or nonming should be allowed to play (bc Idra being a proSC player and nonming having proSC associations in the past ... Ret would have the best argument to be allowed to play [under my suggested rules] but it really depends on if he is currently with a proSC team ... fact is they all have fairly easy access to the Korean SC scene and all the tourneys Korea has to offer).
As for the deleted posts I should have added "not" before "missing". I had checked shortly before the massive rearranging/locking of posts and my posts were gone. But since then they've reappeared so thanks.
Edit: I also find it strange that there seems to be no staff that actually disagree (which imo seems very unlikely). So either those staff members just don't want to say their opinion or the staff has agreed to agree together.
Edit2: And under the rules I suggested you could probably exclude nonmingzerg because of his previous/current association with proSC.
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On November 12 2009 19:20 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 18:46 Eiii wrote:On November 12 2009 18:38 Daigomi wrote:On November 12 2009 18:24 Eiii wrote:On November 12 2009 17:57 muramasa wrote:
It seems really unfair to the other players that Idra and Ret will be allowed to play in TSL. Those two have a huge advantage over all other players in that they get to practice with pro gamers every single day and that they have way more practice time since it is literally their job to play SC at the moment. I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living. I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate. If you read the OP, you would see that the rules are indeed bent to allow foreign progamers to participate. Why? Because our goal is to promote the achievement of foreigners, not to hamper them further by kicking them out of the TSL once they get an opporutinity to go to SK. If we're all honest about this, no foreigner has achieved much in SK in the last four or five years. In fact, playing in tournaments like the TSL is most likely the only way in which foreign progamers can perform to their best. Do you really think that by forcing players like Ret or Idra to choose between becoming a progaming b-teamer (not that they can't move up, but historically, this hasn't happened very often) and participating in the TSL, we are improving the foreign community? We want to provide the best possible motivation for the foreign community to excel, and by cutting them out of the community once they get an opportunity to go pro, we are not doing that. I can tell you now, however, that if we thought that Idra's progamer training gave him such an unfair advantage that he would win this for sure, we would not have allowed him to play. We do not want foreign progamers to kill the foreign scene either. As it is, we feel that there are more than enough non-professional foreigners that can compete with Idra, and we do not think allowing Idra to play interferes with our larger goals for the tournament. Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him. Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold. Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday. This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception. Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to not make an exception for him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction. So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted. I hope this clears up you confusion  EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions.
I must say that it makes me sad to see this decision but still, I understand your stand-point and I think daigomi's post makes the thought process perfectly clear, and absolutely acceptable. I suggest you quote it in the OP so that people who aren't as good mannered as I am (and actually read all the 10 pages until i stumbled upon that gem, before posting) have a chance to see your reasoning in a clear light before they embarass themselves with angry posts. Just a thought.
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lollllll. I can't believe I read through this whole thread -_-;;;;
"HURRRR DURRR he can't play!!?! U want IDRA TO WIN JUS SAY IT no biggie!" My god. Like how clear can the staff make it that they tried to get him in? Seriously. The guy has 15 posts, understands why he can't be included and imo is taking this like a class act. Why can't his fans do the same?
It's not THAT hard to understand why he's not included and Idra and Ret are. Seriously *facepalm*
And let's remember that everyone thought Idra would win the first TSL. Did that happen? No. Was the TSL still a huge ass success? Yes. The staff knows that Idra and Ret or not this tournament is going to be awesome with it's prize pool.. there's no hidden motive and I think at this point 90% of the people posting in this thread are unintentionally trolling.
Maybe myself included. Lol. Props to the TL staff for just being upfront about it. Can't wait for this TSL.
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It seems to me that you know enough about his situation to grant him an exeption of the rule.
The only reason he can't play is because he takes a flight to another country and plays from there.
It doesn't really change that much about his situation...
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How are administrators going to differentiate:
(1) Koreans with Korean citizenship. They live outside of Korea.
(2) Koreans with non-Korean citizenship. They immigrated and live outside of Korea.
(3) Koreans with non-Korean citizenship. They were born and continue to live outside of Korea.
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On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA?
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On November 13 2009 02:30 xMiragex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA?
We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On November 13 2009 02:42 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 02:30 xMiragex wrote:On November 13 2009 00:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is a rule largely/partially based on the enforceability of things. As it is hard for us to know who is playing besides IP, as it is impossible for us to know how long someone has been in the USA, therefore this rule has been made. The existence of this rule means that regardless of having to look into anything; nongmin would have been allowed to play from the USA. The same will go for TSL3.
okay, idra have iris or skyhigh play for you and stomp them. its weak to rely solely on IP, would he be playing from the CJ house? if from a public place, how do you know its IdrA? We have the greatest hotkey detective team in the world. :p
Give the same treatment to Nongmin.
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EPT
