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InToTheWannaB
United States4770 Posts
On November 12 2009 14:11 Kennigit wrote: Hey look a distraction http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=105540 Americans can't play? THATS BS!! RABLE RABLE RABLE RABLE!!!! | ||
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illu
Canada2531 Posts
On November 12 2009 18:51 InToTheWannaB wrote: Americans can't play? THATS BS!! RABLE RABLE RABLE RABLE!!!! That Raffle has NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the TSL beside the fact that it's given out by the sponsor of TSL. | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On November 12 2009 18:46 Eiii wrote: Why is forcing nongmin to choose between moving back to Korea and playing in the TSL any better for the foreigner community? As far as I'm concerned, he's a member of the foreign community as well, and I can't think of one good reason to exclude him. Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold. Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday. This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception. Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to not make an exception for him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction. So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted. I hope this clears up you confusion  EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On November 12 2009 18:50 illu wrote:You seem to be claiming that this tournament gives foreigner players the [best possible??] motivation to excel their gameplay. But this contradicts with accepting idra into the tournament already - because he should be trying to get into the A-team right now; but winning this tournament will NOT bring him one-step closer to the A-team To be honest, I can actually agree with this point of view. If the goal is for Idra to achieve as much as possible in the Korean scene, then TSL2 will serve as a distraction - having to ladder, then play in the tournament will take time away from better quality training. And it is possible, although not definite, that winning the prize money will diminish his motivation in Korea. As for asking participants whether or not they minded a certain player's participation...how about we ask participants whether or not they mind Idra and ret's participation, since these two are also exceptional cases (which you have made an extra rule to accomodate). | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
On November 12 2009 19:20 Daigomi wrote: Firstly, as has been said, all the staff really wanted Nongmin to participate. He is a fairly new member to the community, but his participation has been a great benefit to everyone in the community (as can be seen from the strong reactions of people who want him to play). However, the problem with allowing him play was two-fold. Firstly, he did not fall within the rules of the tournament. Not only was he raised in Korea, and did he learn SC in a very advantageous environment (to the extent that he competed to become a progamer), but he would be in Korea for the entire duration of the tournament and much longer. To say he is taking a vacation in Korea is misleading. He is going home for at least 8 months, and for potentially as long as a year. So there is no denying that Nongmin falls outside of the rules of the tournament. However, TL has never been a place bogged down by rules, and we are willing to consider all important decisions on a case by case basis. This particular issue has been discussed from before the TSL was announced, and was discussed at length again yesterday. This brings us to the second issue reason for not allowing Nongmin. As he falls outside of the rules, we would need to make an exception to allow him to play, an exception we considered making at length. Unfortunately, in the end, we felt that Nongmin was primarily still seen as a Korean rather than a foreigner (not by TL, but by the foreigner community as a whole). Nongmin has not immersed himself in the foreigner community over the last four years. He has not participated in foreign tournaments, and he has not been an active member of any community's until very recently. The fact that he did livestream and communicate with all the viewers was taken into consideration, and made our decision more difficult. However, in the end we decided two months as part of the livestream community was not enough to warrant an exception. Now, we're not saying people must work for their right to participate in the TSL. What we are saying is that we needed to make an exception in this case, and that exception would have to be based on how much Nongmin was perceived as being foreign, and how much he was perceived as being Korean. Unfortunately, we felt that the majority of the community (especially those who don't frequent TL) would not see Nongmin as foreign, but rather as a Korean who is living in Korea, and who is going to participate in competitive tournaments within Korea. As such, we decided to exclude him. However, as has been said, he is free to participate in TSL3 next season. If he is in the US for the TSL3, we won't even have to discuss allowing him to play. If this exact same situation occurs somehow, but he has obtained foreigner recognition by then, the decision will probably still lean in his direction. So regarding how allowing him to play hurts the foreigner community, it hurts it by us not following sticking to our rules, and it hurts the community because of the perception of a non-foreigner competing in a foreign community. We need to be consistent, so exceptions will be rare and only occur if they are 100% warranted. I hope this clears up you confusion EDIT: Illu, and keep this discussion civil. I understand that you are upset, but becoming insulting and sarcastic is not going to help your case. Regarding Idra, we want to give Idra the opportunity to excel in whichever way they see fit. Are you suggesting that we go from providing the community with opportunities to excel to making sure they practice? And no, no matter how much you dislike Idra, we won't ban him on your opinions. That's the decision I needed to hear. Thanks. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On November 12 2009 17:52 illu wrote: I seriously do not think Idra should be allowed to play. He has ruined enough foreign leagues already ("I honestly do not know what you are going to do...."). Also, this so-called "rule" of yours is obviously made up on the spot so that nongminzerg is excluded and idra is included. How can it be made up on the spot when it was already created and put to use to tell nongmin he would be allowed to participate, BEFORE he told us he wouldn't be in the USA. So please tell me how it is obviously created afterward when it is obvious we must have used our rules already in the first situation where told him he could play. These are serious accusations. I can't see how it makes sense to allow players who are actively training with pro teams in but not allow someone with no pro affiliation in because they grew up in different areas. Clearly Idra/ret have a huuuge advantage over Nongmin, no matter where any of them are living. I understand that this is a rules issue, but in this case the rules seem shortsighted and bent to allow foreign pros like Idra and ret to participate. TSL is a tournament that should promote progaming for foreigners. Disallowing them from TSL means you are discouraging foreigners to go to Korea and pursue that dream. This is the exact opposite of anything we would ever want to achieve. | ||
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skyrunner
371 Posts
This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here). To me this is unfair and i really see no reason at all why he shouldnt be allowed to play. The fact that he was born and raised on korea... how can that be a bigger factor than the fact that he's been living in the us for the past 4 years? Anyway there is still the "exclusion rule" (or whatever you wanna call it) and he doesn't fit into it because he hasn't been in the community long enough? And because he hasn't taken part in any tournaments... I fail to see how taking part in any tournaments would make him more part of the foreign community, because by your logic he would be a "non-foreigner" playing in a foreign tournament. In my opinion this shows he hasn't entered the foreign community just to take money. Besides this how long and how much discussion is ridiculous, isn't it? He currently lives in usa (and has for the past 4 years), he is on a foreign team/clan (i think? or atleast he was), he streams and post at tl and he talks/chats with alot of the foreign community, even helps them with strategy etc. To me he is clearly part of the foreign community. But he hasn't done it long enough, so how many months more of streaming would have made him eligible? 1, 2, 6, a year? Ofcourse such discussion is, as previously stated, ridiculous. Imo you are either in the foreign community or you are not. I have not read all of the thread, but i have read he rules and whole OP. Apparently he falls just short, but ofcourse for tsl3 he is gonna be able to participate for sure! TL staff claims that they really wanted him to play, but they think that he wouldn't be seen as a foreigner by the majority of the community. I think that's kinda cowardice hiding behind that, is there anything supporting this theory at all? I dont think there is, but the fact that people reacted to strong now is kinda says the opposite. Do you really think if his situation was explained that people would have strongly objected to him playing? Well this is just my 2 cents, i felt i had to post it! | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here). He was told he could participate. The rules we made were specifically allowing nongmin to play. I thought you said you read the OP. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On November 12 2009 20:12 skyrunner wrote: Hi, This is kinda bs imo. To me it clearly seems that the rules are tailor made to not include nongmin. I can not see how you went in to the discussion saying "hey lets make a rule that will serve tsl2 the best" rather than "is nongmin gonna be allowed to play?". "no" ok lets write the rules to exclude him then (ofcourse I could be wrong here). To me this is unfair and i really see no reason at all why he shouldnt be allowed to play. The fact that he was born and raised on korea... how can that be a bigger factor than the fact that he's been living in the us for the past 4 years? Anyway there is still the "exclusion rule" (or whatever you wanna call it) and he doesn't fit into it because he hasn't been in the community long enough? And because he hasn't taken part in any tournaments... I fail to see how taking part in any tournaments would make him more part of the foreign community, because by your logic he would be a "non-foreigner" playing in a foreign tournament. In my opinion this shows he hasn't entered the foreign community just to take money. Besides this how long and how much discussion is ridiculous, isn't it? He currently lives in usa (and has for the past 4 years), he is on a foreign team/clan (i think? or atleast he was), he streams and post at tl and he talks/chats with alot of the foreign community, even helps them with strategy etc. To me he is clearly part of the foreign community. But he hasn't done it long enough, so how many months more of streaming would have made him eligible? 1, 2, 6, a year? Ofcourse such discussion is, as previously stated, ridiculous. Imo you are either in the foreign community or you are not. I have not read all of the thread, but i have read he rules and whole OP. Apparently he falls just short, but ofcourse for tsl3 he is gonna be able to participate for sure! TL staff claims that they really wanted him to play, but they think that he wouldn't be seen as a foreigner by the majority of the community. I think that's kinda cowardice hiding behind that, is there anything supporting this theory at all? I dont think there is, but the fact that people reacted to strong now is kinda says the opposite. Do you really think if his situation was explained that people would have strongly objected to him playing? Well this is just my 2 cents, i felt i had to post it! Unfortunately these rules have been in place since the first TSL. It is true that they have been altered slightly to take these changes into account, but the changes do not represent a will by us to exclude nongmin, but rather a clarifying of our initial position. As you can expect, we did not foresee a situation in which a Korean living in the US would be in Korea for the duration of the TSL but still want to play. Our initial rules were simpler, they simply stated that those with a Korean IP cannot play unless an exception is made. However, as has been said, we felt that these rules unfairly prohibit foreigners in Korea from playing, so we changed them. The fact remains though that these rules and their current meaning have been in place since the TSL1. Regarding the exception, you have to understand that the people arguing here form a very small part of the foreign SC community. Most people in the community have never heard of Nongmin because he did not participate in any tournaments, and because he has only been streaming for a couple of months. We did not quantify the number of months in order to find the exact number needed to be part of the community, instead we looked at the way the community as a whole (not the TL community specifically) would interpret the situation. And that is: "A Korean who played SC competitively in Korea moved to the US for school, but is now back in Korea." As such, we felt that Nongmin was not clearly separated from being a Korean enough to participate. Had he been in the US, or been a well known foreign member, we would have made the exception. I really do not think this can be clearer. What I find interesting about this thread is that no-one seems to be able to provide a reason for why we would not want Nongmin to play. As has been said, the quality of games are likely to be very good if he plays, and we knew that allowing Nongmin to play would be the decision for which we would receive the least amount of complaints right now. So what motivation does the TL staff have for not allowing Nongmin to play? We've invited him to participate in the next Liquibition which shows that we value his role in the community and see him as a strong competitor. The only reason TL can have to not allowing him to play is because of the reasons we've given here. By allowing Nongmin to play, we would need to make an exception, and making an exception for a person who we feel is not perceived as a foreigner would invite discontent among the foreign players and their fans. | ||
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skyrunner
371 Posts
On November 12 2009 20:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: He was told he could participate. The rules we made were specifically allowing nongmin to play. I thought you said you read the OP. I did read the OP, that doesn't mean i understood all of it, i guess. So i read it again. I know he was told he could participate, and i cant see how my post lead you to believe different. I dont know when the current rules were put in place. And after reading the op twice more i can't see how im suppose to deduct that the rules were put in place specifically for nongmin to be able to play (again i did not know when these rules were put in place, and to me there was a big chance that the rules could have be changed after the original thread about this). The way the rules are now, they are just perfect for not letting him play, while they allow others that can take part of the korean esports scene. If you say that the rules were put in place before you knew he was gonna be in korea, then i will believe you. Still the rules can be changed, can't they? Anyway that wasn't the point of my post at all. No need for nitpicking and sarcastic remarks. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On November 12 2009 19:44 Eiii wrote: That's the decision I needed to hear. Thanks. Really, thats the part that makes the least sense to me. If you, as the mod's want nongmin to play and we, the teamliquid community, the largest sc site, want nongmin to play why are we instead taking into consideration the unvoiced hypothetical opinions? | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Anyway that wasn't the point of my post at all. No need for nitpicking and sarcastic remarks. The accusation that we make rules to specifically not allow him to play definitely needs to be nitpicked. I hope you understand the seriousness of such a remark it seems almost like you think it's no big deal to just say something like that with no foundation whatsoever. The way the rules are now, they are just perfect for not letting him play, while they allow others that can take part of the korean esports scene. If you say that the rules were put in place before you knew he was gonna be in korea, then i will believe you. Still the rules can be changed, can't they? Which rule change would you suggest that lets nongmin play in this situation that still keeps TSL as a foreigner tournament without 1000s of Koreans entering. It's simply not possible. These rules are the very best we can do and they will apply to 99.9% of the situations in the way they were intended to apply. | ||
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skyrunner
371 Posts
On November 12 2009 20:31 Daigomi wrote: Unfortunately these rules have been in place since the first TSL. It is true that they have been altered slightly to take these changes into account, but the changes do not represent a will by us to exclude nongmin, but rather a clarifying of our initial position. As you can expect, we did not foresee a situation in which a Korean living in the US would be in Korea for the duration of the TSL but still want to play. Our initial rules were simpler, they simply stated that those with a Korean IP cannot play unless an exception is made. However, as has been said, we felt that these rules unfairly prohibit foreigners in Korea from playing, so we changed them. The fact remains though that these rules and their current meaning have been in place since the TSL1. Regarding the exception, you have to understand that the people arguing here form a very small part of the foreign SC community. Most people in the community have never heard of Nongmin because he did not participate in any tournaments, and because he has only been streaming for a couple of months. We did not quantify the number of months in order to find the exact number needed to be part of the community, instead we looked at the way the community as a whole (not the TL community specifically) would interpret the situation. And that is: "A Korean who played SC competitively in Korea moved to the US for school, but is now back in Korea." As such, we felt that Nongmin was not clearly separated from being a Korean enough to participate. Had he been in the US, or been a well known foreign member, we would have made the exception. I really do not think this can be clearer. What I find interesting about this thread is that no-one seems to be able to provide a reason for why we would not want Nongmin to play. As has been said, the quality of games are likely to be very good if he plays, and we knew that allowing Nongmin to play would be the decision for which we would receive the least amount of complaints right now. So what motivation does the TL staff have for not allowing Nongmin to play? We've invited him to participate in the next Liquibition which shows that we value his role in the community and see him as a strong competitor. The only reason TL can have to not allowing him to play is because of the reasons we've given here. By allowing Nongmin to play, we would need to make an exception, and making an exception for a person who we feel is not perceived as a foreigner would invite discontent among the foreign players and their fans. OK, thx for the answer. I understand your reasoning, but i still feel he should be able to participate. But thats just my opinion, and i felt the need to say it. I guess we can agree to disagree, and in the end the tl staff, ofcourse, decides. And i have no idea why tl staff would want to exclude him, exactly the same reason why i feel the rules could be changed or en exception could be made. anyway i said what i think, and this prob wont get any further. since i prob wouldnt have posted if it wasnt for this and i dont want to seem inconsiderate; i just wanna say thanks to tl staff and pokerstrategy for making this happen! | ||
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mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:05 Kennigit wrote: If and when he starts raping proleague and msl you REALLY believe we would let him play in TSL? REALLY???!!!! So that means if Idra was 'raping proleague and msl', the rules would have been different (because with the current rules he would still be allow to play)? I think this is a wrong approach to regulations. It shouldn't be made around a few individuals (in this case, the rules were made around Idra/ret). I understand it's extremely hard to regulate and organize such a big thing as the TSL, but at the end of the day this is for the fans and it's the fans that decide the league's success, not the players. | ||
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Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On November 12 2009 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The accusation that we make rules to specifically not allow him to play definitely needs to be nitpicked. I hope you understand the seriousness of such a remark it seems almost like you think it's no big deal to just say something like that with no foundation whatsoever. Which rule change would you suggest that lets nongmin play in this situation that still keeps TSL as a foreigner tournament without 1000s of Koreans entering. It's simply not possible. These rules are the very best we can do and they will apply to 99.9% of the situations in the way they were intended to apply. And just to add to this, for the 0.1% of situations in which the rule doesn't work, we invariably have a ten page discussion on how to proceed before making a decision, as we did in this situation. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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skyrunner
371 Posts
On November 12 2009 20:56 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: The accusation that we make rules to specifically not allow him to play definitely needs to be nitpicked. I hope you understand the seriousness of such a remark it seems almost like you think it's no big deal to just say something like that with no foundation whatsoever. Which rule change would you suggest that lets nongmin play in this situation that still keeps TSL as a foreigner tournament without 1000s of Koreans entering. It's simply not possible. These rules are the very best we can do and they will apply to 99.9% of the situations in the way they were intended to apply. it wasnt meant as an accusation. yes i can see how it can be interpretated as such, so i wanna make it clear that it isnt. thats why i explained why i saw it as that. A rule that allows for people in the foreign community to play. The thing is he kinda lives in the usa and is just in korea for a break before coming back to school. Afaik the fact that he hadn't been in the foreign community for a long time was stated. You could make a rule that if you are a foreigner you are eligible or that you you are korean born but has lived in the us for a substantial amout of time and is part of the foreign community. yes, what is a "substantial" amount time is definitely up to interpretation, as is what is "being part of the foreign community". You could just scratch the "time in a foreign country" and i still think the rule is better than the current. In the current rules a guy like terror could move outside of korea and participate, wich as i understand is not tl's goal. I guess this could open up a discussion how this would affect tsl3. but imo its kinda clear if someone has lived in a foreign country and wether or not he takes part in the community at all. Bottom line is nongmin hasnt been able to take part in the korean scene. "When determining whether to grant an exception, we not only look at whether the player benefitted from growing up in a location without a professional StarCraft scene, but also whether the player has a long history of being a part of and contributing to the "foreigner" community. This is the case with every player who was granted an exception." IMO there can be an exception because he hasnt benefitted from the korean esports scene for 4 years, and imo he is a full fledged member of the foreign community (i explained this in a previous post). I guess somewhere a line has to be drawn. I respect tl's decision and i dont see any reason to keep arguing, just wanted to give my opinion even though i was pretty sure nothing was gonna be changed. I did this post to show that it wasnt an accusation and to answer your question how another rule could look like. sorry if i double post. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
A rule that allows for people in the foreign community to play. The thing is he kinda lives in the usa and is just in korea for a break before coming back to school. Afaik the fact that he hadn't been in the foreign community for a long time was stated. You could make a rule that if you are a foreigner you are eligible or that you you are korean born but has lived in the us for a substantial amout of time and is part of the foreign community. yes, what is a "substantial" amount time is definitely up to interpretation, as is what is "being part of the foreign community". You could just scratch the "time in a foreign country" and i still think the rule is better than the current. In the current rules a guy like terror could move outside of korea and participate, wich as i understand is not tl's goal. I guess this could open up a discussion how this would affect tsl3. but imo its kinda clear if someone has lived in a foreign country and wether or not he takes part in the community at all. Bottom line is nongmin hasnt been able to take part in the korean scene. Appreciate the input. The reason why we don't like "time in a foreign country" "being part of" is because it is subjective all the way. We would arbitrarily set lines for things that arguably are not meant to be put in numbers (such as being part of a community). If we had a rule about being part of the community this would allow Bisu to post some replays to get into TSL. I know it seems far fetched but it really isn't; TSL is reaching the stage where the prize money does indeed become attractive for top Koreans. That is one reason. Another is because these suggestions are impossible to enforce for us. If we make a rule about x years in the US how do we prove someone was there for x years. I know it's shitty but as an organization you should never make rules that you have zero chance of enforcing. I hope you understand that nothing big at TL happens without everything being thoroughly discussed back and forth. These are not things we haven't thought of. | ||
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