EPTThe Automated Ban List - Page 514
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This thread is for discussing recent bans. Don't discuss other topics here. Take it to website feedback if you disagree with a ban or want to raise an issue. Keep it civil. NOTE: For those of you who want to find the actual ABL thread where the bans are posted. Please look in here: https://tl.net/forum/closed-threads/ | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
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Spazer
Canada8033 Posts
On August 31 2011 13:55 Craton wrote: It saddens me to see extremely excessive moderation like this because a moderator disagrees with people making light of an unusual situation. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=260993 I am actually a little interested in this. In the past, we've had a lot of serious threads, and it's not unusual to see people wishing injury/death on various people involved (This thread comes to mind). To me, most of these comments come off as spur of the moment, emotional charged posts that aren't actually that malicious in intent. Yes, the comments are tasteless, but where exactly does one draw the line for these sorts of topics? It doesn't seem sensible to ban all of these users when previous threads were left relatively untouched, unless this is going to be a new moderation policy here on TL. | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:31 Spazer wrote: I am actually a little interested in this. In the past, we've had a lot of serious threads, and it's not unusual to see people wishing injury/death on various people involved (This thread comes to mind). To me, most of these comments come off as spur of the moment, emotional charged posts that aren't actually that malicious in intent. Yes, the comments are tasteless, but where exactly does one draw the line for these sorts of topics? It doesn't seem sensible to ban all of these users when previous threads were left relatively untouched, unless this is going to be a new moderation policy here on TL. I think it depends on the mod involved  TL's policy has always been quite vague, so that the mods have some wiggle room and discretion when handing out bans.On August 31 2011 14:30 Tippereth wrote: Is there an acceptable waiting period that must be had before something can be made light of? Should jokes about war, famine, economic disparities, etc. never be made? Sadly, there's no fixed standard. Or rather, happily, there's no fixed standard. It's usually situation-based. Like 9-11... up to now a lot of people find it offensive when you joke about it, even 10 years after the fact. Same thing with the Holocaust, though it's become somewhat acceptable to joke about it as long as your audience isn't a Jewish/German one. I honestly don't know, but experience would suggest that it's commensurate to the degree of tragedy. A massive tragedy is almost always untouchable (Hiroshima, Chernobyl, Tianmen, 9/11). A small one takes some time to be fair game (like this one). There's always a concept of "too soon" though, and that's the custom those posters breached. | ||
KwarK
United States43987 Posts
A new user coming to the site today as a sane, mature and rational individual will not immediately be able to join the veterans cliques. General is all he'll have and one look at the posters in that topic ought to assure him that our forums are as bad as every other forum on the internet. I believe we're better than that and that we should give people a chance to see it. | ||
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KwarK
United States43987 Posts
On August 31 2011 13:00 sevencck wrote: Hi everyone, I have been reading over these forums now for some time, though I never bothered to sign up to post anything here. As a website for Starcraft enthusiasts it absolutely gets top marks, but I could never get past the reputation these forums have. This will be my first post, and it wouldn't terribly surprise me if I discover that it's my last. I thought these forums were populated by intelligent people because of the nature of the often thought provoking content in the news that is posted and discussed here on a daily basis. I have to wonder though; I am utterly baffled at the overwhelming response either validating this reprehensible act, applauding the marksmanship, or making light of the situation. Firing a crossbow at a child from a car (moving or otherwise) for any reason is the height of callous negligent irresponsibility. What do you really know about the child? What if the child bled to death? What if the bolt missed and killed someone enjoying a morning stroll? Is this really the way we have been bred to respond to this type of behavior? Is it normal to suggest this is karma? What does it say about us when we look upon this as justice served or find it funny in any way? DoctorHelvetica and Chargelot, I am thankful for people like you. | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
On August 31 2011 13:55 Craton wrote: It saddens me to see extremely excessive moderation like this because a moderator disagrees with people making light of an unusual situation. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=260993 Yes, I really feel this is ridiculous and some sort of action needs to be taken. The amount of bans delivered is just incredibly inconsistent. TL's unusually high standards for posting and unusually low thresholds for banning are fine and all, when they follow a consistent policy of "don't be a dick," but this is far from objective. The injuries were IN THE ABDOMEN and not life-threatening; it's hard to argue that the shooter was certainly shooting to kill, as KwarK explained in all of his ban notes for everyone he banned. I have been banned a few times for being a douchebag and have always accepted I was in the wrong, but over here I feel like this is just unjust, and it only takes like 3 bans on TL before you're banned for a month so I really feel like this is unfair on a ton of people, as well as stifling what seems to be the most common reaction/opinion to what happened. | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:41 KwarK wrote: A quote from that topic. It was the guy's first post. I hope that wasn't his last post. TL is so much more than that. He should visit the BW forums (maybe not right now, these are lean times and BW fans are so hungry for good news they tend to bite any post or poster not bringing good news j/k ofc :D) | ||
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Tippereth
United States252 Posts
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CrazyAsian
United States188 Posts
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Kojak21
Canada1104 Posts
id say its best to just make a closing comment saying whats not tolerated, and close it, might make a little less of a head ache for you | ||
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Kamais_Ookin
Canada4218 Posts
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:44 Tippereth wrote: While everybody's standards for too soon are impossible to respect, I think most people would agree that the kid being okay significantly lessens the wait time before making light of a surreal situation becomes acceptable. For the record, all of those untouchables you've mentioned have been made light of even in popular, mainstream television shows, to say nothing of the no-holds-barred nature of stand up comedy. Joking about something is never the same as condoning it. Oh they have, and they've gotten flak for it. Now, stand up comedy is a very different animal, because the entire point of it is to be funny whatever it takes (be it irreverence, insults, etc). In a discussion board such as this though, where the objective is to have a moderated exchange of ideas and words, there will always be a limit as to how open you can be. The fact that the kid is ok doesn't lessen the depravity of the act involved. If you reread the thread a lot of posts are treating it as a karmic affair, which is another way of saying that what the child did justifies what the shooter did. That kind of thinking is what the moderation was repressing. The jokes fueled that sentiment, at the expense of actual concern for the victim here. Yeah sure the kid survived but how long will he be in the hospital? Who will foot the hospital bill? How traumatized will he be, if ever? How will his parents deal with the fact that their child nearly died (to a crossbow bolt no less)? All these questions get thrown out the window the moment people begin making light of the situation. And that's pretty sad. | ||
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Cassel_Castle
United States820 Posts
On August 31 2011 13:55 Craton wrote: It saddens me to see extremely excessive moderation like this because a moderator disagrees with people making light of an unusual situation. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=260993 Well put. There's no point in even discussing it if everyone who disagrees with the moderator gets banned, might as well just close the thread. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:40 KwarK wrote: I was honestly ashamed of tl tonight. As tl has grown the site has become less niche and more in line with the general public of the internet who are, by and large, a revolting group of people. The forum veterans started spending less time posting in the general forum, instead retreating to their own smaller groups, and the moderators, who are just volunteers, are no more eager to wade through the shit that is general. We're as much to blame for what it has become as the idiots flooding in here from 4chan. However, when I see a few forum veterans struggling vainly to establish sanity against the masses and a significant minority of new users who were genuinely disgusted with the others then it brings to light the extent to which I, as a moderator, am letting you all down. A new user coming to the site today as a sane, mature and rational individual will not immediately be able to join the veterans cliques. General is all he'll have and one look at the posters in that topic ought to assure him that our forums are as bad as every other forum on the internet. I believe we're better than that and that we should give people a chance to see it. Good post Kwark. | ||
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Craton
United States17282 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:40 KwarK wrote: I was honestly ashamed of tl tonight. As tl has grown the site has become less niche and more in line with the general public of the internet who are, by and large, a revolting group of people. The forum veterans started spending less time posting in the general forum, instead retreating to their own smaller groups, and the moderators, who are just volunteers, are no more eager to wade through the shit that is general. We're as much to blame for what it has become as the idiots flooding in here from 4chan. However, when I see a few forum veterans struggling vainly to establish sanity against the masses and a significant minority of new users who were genuinely disgusted with the others then it brings to light the extent to which I, as a moderator, am letting you all down. A new user coming to the site today as a sane, mature and rational individual will not immediately be able to join the veterans cliques. General is all he'll have and one look at the posters in that topic ought to assure him that our forums are as bad as every other forum on the internet. I believe we're better than that and that we should give people a chance to see it. Being deathly serious about everything, even when someone says early on the kid is alright, is not the sign of a good forum. Your view of TL's progression is completely inverted -- look at some of the many ancient threads by notorious vets like Rekrul that have since been bumped and the quality of posts those contain. In a huge number of those cases, the posts in these threads, and the OPs themselves, would be instant bans today. The quality of the forums has not had some magical degradation -- it's largely nostalgia. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
I support what KwarK did. There needs to be a purge, no matter what language it's phrased. | ||
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Tippereth
United States252 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:52 Caladbolg wrote: Oh they have, and they've gotten flak for it. Now, stand up comedy is a very different animal, because the entire point of it is to be funny whatever it takes (be it irreverence, insults, etc). In a discussion board such as this though, where the objective is to have a moderated exchange of ideas and words, there will always be a limit as to how open you can be. The fact that the kid is ok doesn't lessen the depravity of the act involved. If you reread the thread a lot of posts are treating it as a karmic affair, which is another way of saying that what the child did justifies what the shooter did. That kind of thinking is what the moderation was repressing. The jokes fueled that sentiment, at the expense of actual concern for the victim here. Yeah sure the kid survived but how long will he be in the hospital? Who will foot the hospital bill? How traumatized will he be, if ever? How will his parents deal with the fact that their child nearly died (to a crossbow bolt no less)? All these questions get thrown out the window the moment people begin making light of the situation. And that's pretty sad. You'll get no argument from me that the idea of a karmic system is reprehensibly evil, since it by definition justifies the mistreatment and ill fortune of others as some sort of cosmic justice. All of the questions and concerns that you say get thrown out of the window don't matter to any of us, though. There's no possible way for us to do any good in the situation no matter how much hand-wringing we perform. In the same vein, no amount of laughing at a situation will make it any worse for those involved or encourage violence against minors. My statement about the kid being okay was simply a response to the too soon sentiment. Would the situation be worse if the kid were killed? Of course, and people would also be far less willing to laugh. It's an important factor in how soon people are ready to make light of something, and it isn't in any way justification or lessening the crime committed. It lowers the tragedy factor. Few people are saying that discussion shouldn't be moderated, but the degree of moderation is a perfectly valid platform of discussion. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:56 Craton wrote: Being deathly serious about everything, even when someone says early on the kid is alright, is not the sign of a good forum. Your view of TL's progression is completely inverted -- look at some of the many ancient threads by notorious vets like Rekrul that have since been bumped and the quality of posts those contain. In a huge number of those cases, the posts in these threads, and the OPs themselves, would be instant bans today. The quality of the forums has not had some magical degradation -- it's entirely nostalgia. You're partially correct. The reason people could get away with poorer posts in the 'good old days' is because the community was a lot smaller. Everyone knew everyone and we could get away with such crap posting. However, as the forum grows the standards must increase in order to maintain some sense of quality. This is because as people become just names on a page, you really don't care if all they have to say is 'lol' or make a really shitty post. But in a smaller community you do actually care if that person you know lol's something or makes a shitty post. Indeed, 500 people making poor posts makes a really crappy thread and so moderation needs to increase. It's not that the forum has degraded, its that the forum demands more of it's moderation to maintain quality. On August 31 2011 14:58 Probe1 wrote: I'm going to be the first to say it: Mass bans are not an unqualified idea. Even I get away with shit I shouldn't. I support what KwarK did. There needs to be a purge, no matter what language it's phrased. Purges need to be conducted in the right manner else it throws all our moderation practices out the window. We can't have one mod deciding to ban half a thread without consulting more people. The moderation staff need to be on the same page before purges begin, that wasn't the case today. Kwark's heart was definitely in the right place today, it's just that he jumped the gun on the issue. | ||
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Kurr
Canada2338 Posts
On August 31 2011 14:56 Craton wrote: Being deathly serious about everything, even when someone says early on the kid is alright, is not the sign of a good forum. Your view of TL's progression is completely inverted -- look at some of the many ancient threads by notorious vets like Rekrul that have since been bumped and the quality of posts those contain. In a huge number of those cases, the posts in these threads, and the OPs themselves, would be instant bans today. The quality of the forums has not had some magical degradation -- it's largely nostalgia. Entirely agree. Everytime I see an old thread get brought back I feel the same way. People knew each other so it was more "homely", but to say post quality has gone way down is not true IMO. A lot of really stupid posts, 1 word answers (some threads have entire pages of mods with such posts) and overall people being way more crude. That's not to say that the current TL is filled with great posters and shouldn't be harsher, but people need to take a step back when comparing to the past. | ||
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