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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 08 2011 07:27 Marradron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:24 Mysticvoid wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? Do you guys not find it funny that he didn't upload the video of him laddering from that day to justin tv like he usually does? Is this true ? Havent checked myself but doesnt it autostore it and they have to be manualy removed ?
I believe there's an option you set.
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I think the more unsettling issue with this is that the legion of users who were actually harassing Chill went unmentioned. I would hope they received at an equal punishment for the harassment to the person who just encouraged it.
In a way (and in no disrespect to TL, I feel they handled the situation well), I respect Greg's honesty with the issue. If he doesn't feel like he did anything wrong, why should he apologize? He more or less said, "Yeah, I said it, and I'll do it again." and took his punishment instead of giving a not-even-half-assed empty apology and getting off easier.
The situation kind of reminds me of a few bars from Eminem's "Who Knew":
"...
if you woulda been, in my shoes, who woulda thought
Slim Shady would be somethin that you woulda bought
that woulda made you get a gun and shoot at a cop
I just said it - I ain't know if you'd do it or not.."
But more of,
"If you'd have been, in his shoes, who woulda thought
the Greg Fields stream would have been so watched..
that would made you log-in, and bitch out a mod,
He just said it, he didn't know if you did it or not.."
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im sorry but i just dont respect idra one little bit. hes a somewhat decent player but all he does is bitch and moan. He keeps cyring about zerg being underpowered, i really think hes the worst kind of example for the sc community. I really liked last state of the game where incontrol asked: "so idra, what race did you play in BW." idra: "terran" incontrol: "and what race did you think was underpowered again?" idra:" well uhm i think terran was the most losable"
Not an exact quote but i do think it shows rather nicely what his state of mind is. Honestly idra, I do hope you succeed in your endeavours, always love to see a foreign player succeed, but imo the way you are acting now you are nothing but a piece of shit and your the most horrible kind of influence to the sc2 scene possible. (guys like you encourage zerg players to keep whining about being under powered no matter what.)
User was warned for this post
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Calgary25977 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:27 pStar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:24 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:
[quote]
No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing He said the stream was muted and minimized. The key words here being "He Said". Why do you believe this? In my opinion its because you are biased towards cruncher. Why would he have the stream open at all, plus he has his second monitor and was countering everything idrA was doing?
I'm biased towards evidence. He had the stream open to get into the game with Idra.
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its a bit silly to believe cruncher (obviously he says he didnt watch the stream)
but this topic doesnt deserve a 10-page thread.
i dont think idra minds the ban, he still can stream,
he will still be in the news if there are any matches of him,
and thats probably the most important part for sc2 pros on the tl site oO
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http://i.imgur.com/cULBN.jpg
That image + idra gets lee-way, so he doesn't get warnings/bans from things normal users would get it from. I actually think all those 2 day bans should have been bumped up in length, first 2 day, second 3 day, third 4 day and so on.
Good he finally got a longer ban. Reading his post history only occasionally shows a worthwhile post. (I am not better at post quality, but I try to avoid breaking the rules.)
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On May 08 2011 07:29 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:27 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:24 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:
[quote]
This is honestly ridiculous.
How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing He said the stream was muted and minimized. The key words here being "He Said". Why do you believe this? In my opinion its because you are biased towards cruncher. Why would he have the stream open at all, plus he has his second monitor and was countering everything idrA was doing? I'm biased towards evidence.
Just bring up the fact that cruncher has done this build to other players (zealots included) on the same map.
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Good move TL, completely deserved.
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On May 08 2011 06:44 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 06:37 TL.net Bot wrote:IdrA was just temp banned for 90 days by Liquid`Nazgul. That account was created on 2004-07-31 20:59:50 and had 11027 posts. Reason: A few days ago, one of our moderators (Chill) banned Idra for 2 days. After the ban, Idra encouraged his fans, through twitter, to harass and spam him on TL. We spoke with Idra and he stated that he does not regret his actions and will not change his behavior on our forums. Thus, we've decided to ban him for 90 days. Regardless of whether he felt the 2-day ban was justified or not, we cannot tolerate a forum user publicly encouraging harassment of our moderators. We understand that this decision may be unpopular among Greg's fans, but we have warned and banned him before about his conduct toward our staff members. We simply cannot accept this sort of abuse and insults directed toward our volunteer staff members who work very hard to make TL what it is. Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. Feel free to discuss this here as long as things stay civilized. We're going to ban for flames and insults from either side.
I tought your policy was not to take actions based on assumption. In fact, that was stated multiple times in this topic. So unless Idra literally said to a moderator he asked people to harras and spam chill that is nowhere to be seen in his twitter post.
If he did not do that then you pretty much banned him on an assumption?
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Idra is a great player, but that does not give him the right to be a complete ass to everyone and absolutely no right to continue his God complex. He is an admitted jerk and he knows it and doesn't care, so why should I?
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This might be my first post here, but I've been lurking around these forums for a while. I've noticed that moderating on Idra's behaviour has been lenient in comparison to the normal folk, and thus if there would be any bias, it would be favoured towards Idra, not against him. Seeing his banlog, he's been warned enough.
As far as the Idra v. Cruncher case: There is no conclusive evidence that Cruncher has been ghosting, and thus he should not be punished. Sniping is not illegal according to TL rules, and so he cannot be punished for doing so. It might be childish and annoying from Cruncher to do this, but that's something that will eventually lose him fans, and thus recognition and respect.
I myself am currently banned from another forum for a month because I just spoke my mind without insulting anyone, the mods just didn't like what I had to say. On TL the moderating seems to be quite well-done.
If it were up to me, I'd have required a formal apology live on his stream to the community and the TL moderation crew, before lifting the ban.
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On May 08 2011 06:50 Kyhol wrote:
How the fuck can anyone be a fan of this guy?
I dislike Chill, too.
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thanks for leaving his stream listed.
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On May 08 2011 07:27 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra. How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating. I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized?
The difference is that it's pretty common for people to have dual monitors and CrunCher is OBVIOUSLY not going to admit to cheating. It's totally expected for him to say he had it minimized and muted because it was already proven that he was connected to the stream so it's not like he could deny that part. He lied about what cannot be proven/disproven. Him and IdrA have a grudge and IdrA constantly beats and BMs CrunCher. There's your motive. IdrA had every right to be angry about the situation, and banning him for something like this is totally unreasonable and biased towards CrunCher.
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On May 08 2011 07:30 Tranqje wrote:
I tought your policy was not to take actions based on assumption. In fact, that was stated multiple times in this topic. So unless Idra literally said to a moderator he asked people to harras and spam chill that is nowhere to be seen in his twitter post.
If he did not do that then you pretty much banned him on an assumption?
What do you mean? He literally said that on his Twitter
"wont be streaming for 2 days as i have been banned from tl for insulting cruncher, everyone pm Chill if this upsets you"
http://twitter.com/#!/idrajit/status/66276394849673216
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This is pointless, he won't change
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On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream?
I love this conversation. He admitted to queue sniping, he has 2 monitors to see Idras stream while playing, his play was exactly counter to IdrA's play exactly. Every single piece of "evidence" you need to believe someone was cheating is there, but because Chill wasn't there to see it in first person i guess (Cuz that's the only thing that will convince him) he won't do anything.
I guess if that's your stance, what proves Idra posted that stuff on TL? Or on Twitter? WHat's your proof? Someone else could have said those things on his account, you didn't see it first hand, you can't PROVE it.
Bias is the name of the game.
I don't even like IdrA. I think he's bad for the game, but Chill makes me defend him because of the terribly bias comments and actions.
To quote someone else in this thread: Whats wrong with telling people to confront moderators if they're banned? When someone tells the masses to write a letter to their congressman because they're upset with something they should be "banned"?
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On May 08 2011 07:23 pStar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" This, i just dont believe that alongside crunchers BM with building incident that he didn't screen cheat.
Believing and proving are two different things.
No judge would put someone in prison because he "was probably doing something bad". Either there is a proof or not, and it's up to the claimant to deliver the definitive proof.
I agree with the decision of the TL Mods, IdrA needs to stop his BM. I bet if he apologized and gave a reason like "I had just lost 10 games in a row", "I just got rejected by a girl" or whatever, the mods would definatly reduce the ban duration. If he doesn't, well, personally i won't miss his posts on this forum.
Banning his stream would punish him more (and imho too much), as because of his "commercial after every game" i sometimes have the feeling he does it just for the money... and at least one time that i tuned in he said "ok, and now a commercial because i like money"... which i consider ironic as he - quite a while ago - flamed a well known caster for "doing it just for the money".
I still think the current solution is the best, maybe he will learn his lesson.
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I love how this a ban magnet for overzealous IdrA fans too ^^
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On May 08 2011 07:31 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 06:50 Kyhol wrote:
How the fuck can anyone be a fan of this guy? I dislike Chill, too.
:O
Blasphemy!
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EPT
