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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
He had it coming for years. Finally the mods grew balls.
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Woohoo Nazgul lay down the law. Justice is only justice in the state of nature if a king like Nazgul enforces the law.
I also do not understand who can go heads over heels over this guy. He got what he deserved. WOOT.
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On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream?
You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra.
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The ban, even though quite harsh, is justified by his behaviour.
I love IdrA, but he really should clean up his act just a bit atleast.
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On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream?
Are you kidding? Synch it in time with idras vod and see how he reacts.
User was warned for this post
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On May 08 2011 07:23 Brandish wrote:
If he has said that he isn't going to change multiple times what is stopping the TL mods from permabanning him? It doesn't seem right that he should get special treatment just because he is a pro gamer.
once again, IdrA's mindset is the only thing stopping him from being as successful as he could be
TL moderators have always clearly said that people, who contribute to the community have greater privilages then the average user. That's perfectly reasonable. TL staff just think that IdrA took his BM too far... again.
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Given how long Idra has had a blatant disregard for TL standards and civility, I don't understand why he isn't on the verge of being permanently banned. Having your stream listed, especially as a featured stream, is something that should be a privilege, not a right because of having some success in tournaments.
Given the way JTV works with profit sharing commercials, having his stream listed directly results in more money for Idra. TL having him featured only further increases that direct profit. If he wants that extra money, he should behave like any other person. He does not deserve to have his stream listed.
Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them.
Saying this feels entirely disingenuous. I have a hard time imaging that every pro stream is listed on TL when streams are usually (always?) added and controlled by the person streaming. While there is now the option of having TL automatically detect stream status, that's a relatively recent addition and does not preclude the creation of a TL account and the addition of the stream.
I'm sure there have been cases where people have had their streams added by TL, rather than the actual user, but these cases seem more appropriate to those who speak little to no English, e.g. Korean pros. Moreover, when did the stream listing shift to a "comprehensive and complete listing" of progamers? I don't follow all the announcements, but I've never heard of that policy before. I always understood it to just be a listing of streams for like-minded people to find entertainment.
If anyone else acted like Idra, they'd have been perm'd long ago and most assuredly not allowed to continue streaming, featured or otherwise. I don't see why TL continues to give him additional chances.
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Idra died for our sins. Never forget, never forgive
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:24 Omoplata wrote:
The latest ban (the 2-day ban) was a pretty lame reason to ban someone. It took about 2 seconds and the work of half a brain cell to see the comment within its context and realize it was just an off-the-cuff remark and was in no way wishing harm on someone (as some seem to think). TL mods truly are some of the worst I've seen in all my years on the internet.
That's not to say IdrA was right in asking people to PM Chill, though. Chill's ban was stupid. IdrA's response was stupid. Cruncher stream-cheating was stupid.
Insulting has never been allowed and will never be allowed. He can do that all he want, just not on TL. Just imagine the forum if we tolerate such stuff...
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On May 08 2011 07:24 Mysticvoid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? Do you guys not find it funny that he didn't upload the video of him laddering from that day to justin tv like he usually does?
Do you find that not uploading a video proves he did something wrong? TL can't prove he did anything other than what he says he did. You can keep theorizing all you want, but there is nothing concrete that makes him guilty.
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sad to ban someone for basically just trashtalking
not a fan of cruncher , but i highly doubt even he can't take a flame from idra in stride
also i don't get the 90 days ban i mean it's idra we're talking about ... the second he's unbanned he'll keep on trashtalking.
personally i have no problem with that , it's not like adult people run crying to their mothers if they get flamed on the internet... but if it's oh so unacceptable you should either have perma banned him years ago or shouldn't bother with such bullshit double standard half measures.
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I guess I just feel like this is an escalation of who can react more poorly to the situation. If idra felt slighted that cruncher was sniping his stream (even if he wasn't ghosting... but at this point "he had the stream open, but that doesn't mean he was watching it" is kinda like the old Clinton marijuana quote "I smoked but I didn't inhale") then idra has a right to be upset.
If, at any point, cruncher had apologized for sniping idra's stream, this would have died right then and there. What's happened has more gone along the lines of "you can't 100% prove anything", which just makes cruncher look guilty. Idra even admitted it was only a ladder game, and even if cruncher was ghosting it's mostly meaningless.
Extending the ban for this will only serve to escalate the situation, and I'm sure within a day or two idra will probably tweet something along the lines of "cruncher is a cheater, and chill admitted to being okay with ghosting - please go PM them and post on the TL forum about this!" (I'm not saying I agree with that, I'm saying that a 3-month ban only serves to illicit that type of reaction)
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When did TL change moderating policy so that all flaming and uncordial posting is disallowed? It certainly wasn't like this in BW days. While it's a perfectly reasonable policy, I do think it will lead to quite a boring and sterile community. Personally I think low content posts outside of live threads are a bigger issue. I'm not sure if something like Chill v Combatex would ever occur in modern TL.
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On May 08 2011 07:24 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:
[quote]
So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing He said the stream was muted and minimized.
Oh, well if he SAID so.
I guess it's okay then, keep encouraging obviously-not-cheating people.
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On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:
[quote]
There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing
How are you not getting this? All we know is that cruncher had idra's stream opened as would be required in order to queue at the same time as idra did. That's all we know for sure. There's nothing incredibly suspicious in the game itself.
It's not as if TL hasn't historically taken action against cheaters, in fact they are very harsh in that regard.
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Simply put, this ban is certainly deserved. However, I can't agree with the 2 day ban Chill gave him before given the reasons we all know.
Both IdrA and Chill did not have their finest moment here. The e-Sports community loses.
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On May 08 2011 07:24 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:
[quote]
So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing He said the stream was muted and minimized.
The key words here being "He Said". Why do you believe this? In my opinion its because you are biased towards cruncher.
Why would he have the stream open at all, plus he has his second monitor and was countering everything idrA was doing?
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On May 08 2011 07:24 Mysticvoid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? Do you guys not find it funny that he didn't upload the video of him laddering from that day to justin tv like he usually does?
Is this true ? Havent checked myself but doesnt it autostore it and they have to be manualy removed ?
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Calgary25998 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:25 Monolithic- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? You're just being stubborn. It was quite obvious that cruncher knew what idra was doing and he prepared perfectly for it. I don't see how cruncher being connected to idra's stream isn't proof enough. If he wasn't cheating and cared to avoid any accusations he would have closed the stream as soon as he was matched with idra.
How is that obvious? I've played and seen hundreds of games where someone seems completely prepared, just because of luck or intuition. Just because someone looks ready doesn't mean they were cheating.
I see nothing wrong with using the stream to join at the same time as Idra, then minimizing it. What's the difference between having it open and minimized?
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On May 08 2011 07:26 scrim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream? Are you kidding? Synch it in time with idras vod and see how he reacts.
that doesn't prove that he is actually cheating. People can react like that all the time in a game on a normal basis without cheating so that doesn't prove anything.
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EPT
