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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 08 2011 07:21 kasumimi wrote:
IdrA has contributed absolutely nothing to the community, besides encouraging whine and bad manner, imbalance discussions and calling day9 (who is contributing his life to the community) stupid in his face.
I am in awe that there are so many people supporting and look up to him, as he has nothing to show besides being a player who blames his losses on imbalance and dozens of idiotic defeats in major tournaments.
Banning him for 90 days changes nothing unfortunately.
I think you missed the last few days of his streaming.. some brilliant commentary.
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I don't blame IdrA for not regretting what he did if he genuinely believes Cruncher was cheating.
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On May 08 2011 07:19 Staples1 wrote:
One of the foundational precepts of leadership and maintaining a standard of conduct is the enforcement of standards. If you fail to maintain standards, the standards will fall apart and there will be no standards. Idra would not abide by the established standards and was punished. When he continued to not follow standards the punishment escalated. This is how is works in the real world. He is not so popular that he can believe the standards do not apply to him because they do. Don't blame TL for this it is all on Idra.
As an officer in the military, this is how i deal with my troops all the time when they do not follow the established standards.
I agree 100% with this, Staples. Not to mention IdrA has been told countless times what the standards were that he was meant to follow, and still he disregarded them. That's why he's on extended leave in Disneyland.
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On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence.
Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing
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Calgary25996 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it.
Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream?
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On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction"
This, i just dont believe that alongside crunchers BM with building incident that he didn't screen cheat.
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Good luck mods. It seems it will be a busy day today. T.T
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If he has said that he isn't going to change multiple times what is stopping the TL mods from permabanning him? It doesn't seem right that he should get special treatment just because he is a pro gamer.
once again, IdrA's mindset is the only thing stopping him from being as successful as he could be
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On May 08 2011 06:46 hugman wrote:
I wish he'd grow up
I don't think that will ever happen. I would support a permaban, only reason he hasn't been is because well.. he's idra.
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Agree with the decision. I love IdrA as a player and will continue to watch his games, but his behavior is not tolerable on a forum like TL.
However, I do not agree his stream should still be listed here during the ban. He makes money from showing commercials to the viewers on the stream, and TL is a popular site to show when his stream is up. This likely is why IdrA tweeted as he did to harass Chill about it. He knows he'll have less viewers if notifications on his stream going up no longer are shown on TL's stream list. Not letting him post comments on TL for 90 days doesn't matter. Not letting him gain the benefits from the convenience of having many TL members know his stream up right from the site - that matters.
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Meh, I really felt the first ban wasn't warranted. Cruncher has been harassing IdrA for a long time. I'm surprised he's not banned yet. He stream snipes IdrA, showed off about it, and even made a post taunting IdrA and his fans. Whether he stream cheated or not is one issue, but having the stream on in the first place probably doesn't help.
I do agree with this ban though, but I think it's too harsh considering that IdrA does contribute to the community in many ways. 3 months is a really long time. IdrA probably shoulda worked with Chill instead of sending the fans to attack him. I still stand by that it was probably wrong to ban him in the first place but the reaction from IdrA was even worse.
It's really sad for me because I'm a fan of IdrA's play but I hope he'd be more professional sometimes. It's really hard when you have a competitor like Cruncher who does nothing but harass and taunt you so it's easy to understand his frustration.
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On May 08 2011 07:21 kasumimi wrote:
IdrA has contributed absolutely nothing to the community, besides encouraging whine and bad manner, imbalance discussions and calling day9 (who is contributing his life to the community) stupid in his face.
I am in awe that there are so many people supporting and look up to him, as he has nothing to show besides being a player who blames his losses on imbalance and dozens of idiotic defeats in major tournaments.
Banning him for 90 days changes nothing unfortunately.
he never called day9 stupid and he contributes a lot. he does sotg every other week or so, and now djwheats show every week. he streams alot and commentates some of the time. he gives his honest opinion which holds a lot of value in a community that is otherwise restrained.
im not saying he needs to be so aggressive to people, but no ones perfect. saying he doesn't contribute is just ridiculous though
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Calgary25996 Posts
On May 08 2011 07:22 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:21 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:19 Karthane wrote:On May 08 2011 07:18 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:15 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:13 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 07:11 pStar wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:
[quote]
There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. This is honestly ridiculous. How is that ok in anyway? How is what? There's literally zero proof Cruncher was watching Idra's stream while playing. The only proof is that he had the stream open, which he's admitted to. But surely that makes it pretty darn obvious that he was cheating?? Surely it doesn't prove anything. Cruncher has dual monitors..i mean you are basically saying "the stream was open right there in front of him but we can't prove his eyes were pointed in that direction" I'm saying we don't act on accusations without evidence. Well i'm giving you evidence short of the direction his eyes were facing
He said the stream was muted and minimized.
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The latest ban (the 2-day ban) was a pretty lame reason to ban someone. It took about 2 seconds and the work of half a brain cell to see the comment within its context and realize it was just an off-the-cuff remark and was in no way wishing harm on someone (as some seem to think). TL mods truly are some of the worst I've seen in all my years on the internet.
That's not to say IdrA was right in asking people to PM Chill, though. Chill's ban was stupid. IdrA's response was stupid. Cruncher stream-cheating was stupid.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 08 2011 07:11 zs3000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 06:52 vict1019 wrote:
Whats wrong with telling people to confront moderators if they're banned? When someone tells the masses to write a letter to their congressman because they're upset with something they should be "banned"? While I believe the ban is ok, cuz I don't care for IdrA, my better judgement and trying to be neutral says that this guy is right =-/
Well, there is a difference between "Dear Congressman, I am of the opinion that...." and "LOL WHY U BAN IDRA FCKING IDIOT HE IS GUD ZERG IS UP PLZ BUFF U NUB". This is the nature of the internet and I am pretty sure IdrA did it completely out of spite rather than wanting to resolve the issue, otherwise he would have apologized.
Another analogy: Can't complain that you get treated badly if you break the law (the rules of the forum).
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Some people are allowed to be jerks and get away with it to a degree. And that's understandable. Idra's a progamer, he has significant contributions to the SC2 community, and there's a reason to cut such people slack. But even for them, there are lines that cannot be crossed. And essentially attacking TeamLiquid.net itself, by encouraging harassment of moderators, is one of those lines.
Even if you don't agree with the initial 2-day ban that started this, that cannot justify Idra's later actions against the forum itself. Indeed, some might say that a 90-day ban is showing restraint; most people would have gotten an IP-ban on the spot for inciting harassment of mods.
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On May 08 2011 07:22 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it. Analyse what? What would you possibly find in a replay that would definitively prove that he was watching Idra's stream?
Do you guys not find it funny that he didn't upload the video of him laddering from that day to justin tv like he usually does?
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A step in the right direction. Idra needs to learn to respect his authorities, and calm the fuck down. Big deal, you got banned from a forum for 2 days. That is no reason for encouraging harassment of a mod.
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On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it.
You can't prove from a replay that someone was stream cheating. Maphacking sure, but streamcheating absolutely not.
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On May 08 2011 07:20 scrim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 07:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 08 2011 07:07 shmee wrote:
Oh no in my first post I said I completely understood the reason for the ban. I'm not saying it's not right or not in TL's rightful authority to give idra this 90day ban.
My issue is that I feel like both idra and cruncher are in the wrong here. If it's Chill's opinion that stream ghosting isn't a punishable offense, then he doesn't see cruncher as being in the wrong. That's also completely fine, but this sets the precedent that TL can't punish anyone for ghosting a TL member's stream while claiming objectivity. You haven't been reading. Ghosting is not fine. There is no reason to assume Cruncher was ghosting, and even less proof of it. Then go get the fucking replay of the game and analyze it. Don't care enough to do so? Well, then your kind of moderation is horrible because there could be your damn proof but you aren't investigating it. IdrA won't release it? Go ask cruncher, he wasn't doing it after all, he shouldn't have any reason not to release it.
The replay will hardly prove conclusive. Basically IdrA all-in'd him and he defended it totally perfectly as if he knew it was coming before. Most vocal people will say he stream hacked and they will drown out the people who simply believe it's great game sense. Given that IdrA did the same thing through half of IPL and in most games vs Protoss on the ladder.
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EPT
