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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 243

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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
November 29 2015 23:19 GMT
#4841
[image loading]

Strong reception on Reddit; very happy.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-29 23:46:41
November 29 2015 23:46 GMT
#4842
On November 30 2015 02:28 TheYango wrote:
He's also a hero where most of using him well has nothing to do with items. What items you buy has much less impact on your usefulness to a team relative to how well you use your skills, and by the time you've played the hero enough to be proficient at using his skills, you have enough experience to be able to make those item decisions without a guide.

It's just not a really good guide hero in general.


Agreed; but combined; there are 1 million unique subscribers tied to them. Which is curious.

On November 30 2015 02:28 TheYango wrote:Regarding NS: Cookie-cutter skill order should have his Silence before the first night time. Delaying it or not is situational, but in the case of someone who does not know when to skip it, it is far worse to skip it when you shouldn't than to have it when you don't need it.

Most of the time NS isn't really played mid anymore because he doesn't suit how mid plays in the last few versions. He's a mediocre laner and doesn't farm off effectively against most of the common mids. He's largely used as a support or offlaner in recent versions, so his items are much more geared toward ganking, map control, and supporting the team (usually something like Urn+Agha). How you want to approach this for mid is hard to say.

Midas is very often correct but I would hesitate to put it in a guide for new players because there's a huge association for new/bad players that Midas = farm, when this is not the case. For NS, Midas is not really an item for farming but one for evening out his gold-level balance since XP is vastly more important for NS in the early-midgame than gold, so spending 2k gold purely to accelerate his leveling is worth it.

Treads are significantly more common than Phase Boots (NS is super mana-gated early game and with the lack of early +stat items like Bracers/Drums, Treads are appealing), but Phase is fine. Phase is stronger in ganking/combat during night time, but Treads maintains higher overall efficiency during daytime farming phases when Hunter in the Night deactivates.


I am considering of deleting two guides to make room for new, more valid builds (Night Stalker Lane, Nature's Prophet Lane). Thoughts? Will probably get rid of Warlock Middle and Shadow Shaman Middle

On November 30 2015 06:26 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2015 09:09 TheYango wrote:
On November 28 2015 13:52 Torte de Lini wrote:
I agree, but I'm also confused why so many players at the highest level take Flak first, do you know why?

I find it most likely that they don't skill at level 1 (since Gyro could take either Rocket or Missile depending on what happens at level 1) and then Flak at level 2 when nothing happens (since usually nothing happens at level 1). Dotabuff/Datdota don't record the actual level when someone skills, just the order in which they assign skill points.


It's for harassment in the safe lane:

"This is actually a disaster for an Earthshaker. Any time you are even in experience range, you're going to be getting hit by flak cannon" (DreamLeague S4 4CL vs. Vega Squadron game 3)

Of course, this only works if you have the support coordination to depush the lane despite the flak. I wouldn't recommend it in pubs.


Rocket Barrage is level 1 now.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 00:15:57
November 30 2015 00:11 GMT
#4843
On November 30 2015 08:46 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am considering of deleting two guides to make room for new, more valid builds (Night Stalker Lane, Nature's Prophet Lane). Thoughts? Will probably get rid of Warlock Middle and Shadow Shaman Middle


Warlock middle is still real, and different enough from lane support Warlock that you might want to support both. (E: Actually, it looks like the Warlock builds have converged to be only two skill points, wand vs phase boots, and some starting items apart. You could merge them into a single guide with a 'starting items - mid' section with little lost)

Your Shadow Shaman middle guide doesn't make sense. The fast experience lets him push out waves with Shock and bring down towers with his ult, at a timing when the other team won't be prepared to deal with it. The gold from being mid gets him a blink dagger for hex initiations. This is good so far. But the guide falls apart later; it gets little new teamfight power for the next 10k gold. The player can't even audible into damage items, because they max Shackles next and spend 5 seconds every fight hugging someone and trusting their teammates. If you want to keep this guide, revise everything after early game so there's a reason to give the Shaman some farm priority.

Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 00:43:37
November 30 2015 00:43 GMT
#4844
On November 30 2015 09:11 Buckyman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2015 08:46 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am considering of deleting two guides to make room for new, more valid builds (Night Stalker Lane, Nature's Prophet Lane). Thoughts? Will probably get rid of Warlock Middle and Shadow Shaman Middle


Warlock middle is still real, and different enough from lane support Warlock that you might want to support both. (E: Actually, it looks like the Warlock builds have converged to be only two skill points, wand vs phase boots, and some starting items apart. You could merge them into a single guide with a 'starting items - mid' section with little lost)

Your Shadow Shaman middle guide doesn't make sense. The fast experience lets him push out waves with Shock and bring down towers with his ult, at a timing when the other team won't be prepared to deal with it. The gold from being mid gets him a blink dagger for hex initiations. This is good so far. But the guide falls apart later; it gets little new teamfight power for the next 10k gold. The player can't even audible into damage items, because they max Shackles next and spend 5 seconds every fight hugging someone and trusting their teammates. If you want to keep this guide, revise everything after early game so there's a reason to give the Shaman some farm priority.



I am thinking of deleting it because I don't see either Warlock nor Shadow Shaman being mid-material for awhile and unlike the other nonsensical builds; their growth has been stagnant since their inception (Feb. 2014).

I am capping the # of builds at 150. So we have room for 5 more and with two new heroes; that means 3 more (whether or not I decide to publish mid-versions of those builds is undecided).
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 01:04:59
November 30 2015 00:58 GMT
#4845
warlock middle, imo, is actually one of the most underrated cores this patch

he's also one of the most beginner-friendly mid cores imo, because of how farm independent dropping the rock is (of course getting (midas)/aghs/refresher is crucial for his power progression, but you can win teamfights on every ult cd to get that farm without being particularly good at farming)

i'd really really really get rid of earth spirit before warlock mid

i dont think i've lost any of my last 5 warlock mid games, and he's felt strong every time

i'd be fine with getting rid of rhasta mid, winning with that hero mid requires relentless pressure and near-impeccable use of wards to maintain his tempo and take as many buildings as fast as possible. (also as buckyman noted briefly, I think maxing hex is better than maxing shackles in most cases)

i also imagine a good number of your earth spirit subscribers (and difficult hero guide subscribers in general) are people who load up the heroes in bot games and load up your guides but don't take them to real matchmaking games. i imagine most people will do a few bot games of earth spirit before ruining pubs with them.
posting on liquid sites in current year
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 01:15:31
November 30 2015 01:12 GMT
#4846
I have a problem with the midgame part of Slark(mid), and to a lesser extent Slark(Lane). Slark needs 5 things to function in a fight:

1) A way to get on top of an opponent
2) A way to stick to the opponent
3) Enough damage (later, attack speed) to kill the opponent promptly
4) The ability to tank through the enemies' burst while securing the kill
5) A way to escape afterwards.

They don't all need to come from items. A skilled Pounce can do both 1 and 2. A less skilled Pounce only does 2. Pounce can also do 5, if it hasn't been used yet or is fully ranked up. Shadow Dance can either do 4 or 5 but not both.

Now consider a level 9 Slark with Bottle, Treads and Shadow Blade, as per the mid guide. The guide suggests using Shadow Blade for (1), pounce for (2) and Shadow Dance for (5). But that leaves Slark short on damage (3), relying just on Shadow Blade and pact, with no tanking help (4) either and a 2.5-second window of vulnerability before any pounce to escape. This window, combined with Pact self-damage, is more than enough time to punish Slark for using all his cooldowns unless the target was way off on their own when the gank started.

There is an alternate approach with that build; the Slark can hit the long-range pounce from fog(1+2), kill with two pacts (3) while using Shadow Dance to avoid damage (4) and escape using Shadow Blade (5) straight out of Shadow Dance. This plan, however, is difficult to execute and requires vision superiority.

Regardless, at that level, your Slark can only fight when his ult is up.

In order to reduce ult dependence, Slark needs another core item before Shadow Blade. Drums give extra HP and let him use its active for gap-closing or escape. S&Y does the same thing but bigger, but also lets him stick to a target with Maim procs, saving Pounce for the escape when his ult is down. And a casual Sange (into Silver Edge) forces Slark to rely on teammates for gap closing, but gives both the HP of S&Y and the ability to stick to an enemy hero.

Personally, I prefer Drums into Shadow Blade. But any of the three options (or even casual bracer) is better than a straight bottle->treads->shadow blade.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
November 30 2015 03:35 GMT
#4847
Slark is super mana-heavy and because of this, drums is better than S&Y before shadow blade.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 17:57:11
November 30 2015 17:55 GMT
#4848
Aquila is cheaper and more mana-helpful (long term) than drums pre-sb plus allows you to pressure a tower effectively.

that said it's more of a sidelane item, but then again slark is 100% more of a sidelane hero.

Delaying your shadowblade isn't really good though. Shadowblade puts immense pressure on the map while being an absurd mobility/escape item and quite acceptable rightclick stats. So while aquila is justifiable (makes ur laning way better), drums get a bit harder to justify unless u know for a fact u need raw HP. Even then, casual bracer into later upgrade isn't awful.

Especially in a bottle build, you shouldn't be THAT mana constrained on slark. Pact&pounce are so cheap.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 30 2015 18:18 GMT
#4849
Aquila is better for farming toward Shadowblade, Drums are better if you're going to fight right then.

As a cookie-cutter build, Aquila is easier to justify.
Moderator
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
November 30 2015 21:07 GMT
#4850
treads aquila wand shadowblade is like my standard build. drums usually comes after, not before shadowblade. generally wand and treads gives me enough hp. as sn0man said a casual bracer is fine too if u need it, but dont delay shadowblade. tread switching and aquila is enough to sustain your jungling with pact
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
November 30 2015 21:20 GMT
#4851
I'm sure you build aquila regardless of if you build drums or not. But generally, Wand Aquila Treads Drums with maybe PMS before drums should be the build in 90% of games in this patch. After that, shadow blade depends a bit on game but is pretty good.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 21:21:39
November 30 2015 21:20 GMT
#4852
? thats way too many shitty items

having to sell for your next slot at 10 minutes is not good

especially since this is a mid build being discussed (unfortunately) which means a bottle
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22212 Posts
November 30 2015 21:33 GMT
#4853
o didnt realise this was mid, was wondering why ppl were talking about bottle. i guess ditch the aquila or wand for bottle.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
November 30 2015 23:29 GMT
#4854
Wait why is Slark being put mid O_O

On December 01 2015 06:20 Sn0_Man wrote:
? thats way too many shitty items

having to sell for your next slot at 10 minutes is not good

especially since this is a mid build being discussed (unfortunately) which means a bottle

I don't think you can get Wand Aquila Treads Drums PMS in 10 minutes, which (excluding bottle, mid slark is just silly) is the items you would have when you would need to sell something for Shadow Blade. Then you sell PMS because there are a lot of heroes that have to sell their PMS at 15 or so minutes, and you're still happy.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 30 2015 23:44 GMT
#4855
this isn't a slark discussion, this is a mid slark discussion. If you want to complain that mid slark is dumb go ahead but torte won't delete the guide no matter what you say and since it exists might as well try to help it be as good as it can.

And u still don't buy all those items unless ur lane's so fucking awful that you can't just farm a shadowblade imo. Drums are not bad but in slark's case it kinda just slows down ur important items (shadowblade, sny/skadi).

sure 10 mins is an exaggeration but the point isn't any less valid at 15 mins or w/e
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 23:50:27
November 30 2015 23:48 GMT
#4856
I cant see myself going for Aquila, PMS, Drums and Wand at the same game, thats just really bad imo.

First of all we should not have mid slark guide in the first place, and after that we shouldnt have that many early game items. Something like PMS aquila treads bottle (dont mind the order) into something bigger seems reasonable, Wand only if u really need it (or replace bottle with wand if ur mid and offlaner have bottles too and u are not leaving ur lane for some reason).

Bottle for slark is so good, it basicly removes all of ur mana problems with tread switching.

Whether its SB or SnY first major item, i like to get SB first into either SnY if i didnt get a lot of kills or straight Skadi if i got really out of control after SB.

obviously if u get destroyed u need something like bkb but thats another story.

E: Slark lane has 1 000 000 subs and mid has 300 000 subs, i would delete mid and leave one guide.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
December 01 2015 00:08 GMT
#4857
I'll be taking a break from the guides for 3 days or so. Settling into the apartment and overall spent too many hours at the office updating those texts.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
December 01 2015 00:39 GMT
#4858
On December 01 2015 08:44 Sn0_Man wrote:
this isn't a slark discussion, this is a mid slark discussion. If you want to complain that mid slark is dumb go ahead but torte won't delete the guide no matter what you say and since it exists might as well try to help it be as good as it can.

And u still don't buy all those items unless ur lane's so fucking awful that you can't just farm a shadowblade imo. Drums are not bad but in slark's case it kinda just slows down ur important items (shadowblade, sny/skadi).

sure 10 mins is an exaggeration but the point isn't any less valid at 15 mins or w/e

The point is definitely less valid at 15 minutes. At 15 minutes selling an item is par for the course for a lot of heroes; selling PMS or Wand is very common and not a bad thing at all. I definitely want a shadow blade more than I want a PMS.

Drums lets you farm because you have enough mana to constantly farm and also join fights, whereas Shadow Blade uses mana and doesn't help you spam Q. Drums lets you fight because of the active allowing you to be very mobile in fights, which is super important for Slark. Shadow Blade first is only good for getting pickoffs but you can't do that very easily in the current meta because people walk around together a lot.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-01 01:18:09
December 01 2015 01:09 GMT
#4859
yea i have to admit im quite perplexed that torte is thinking of removing warlock mid before slark mid...

slark mid was like a thing when slark felt pub op, nobody knew how to deal with him, and you could even win with him from the solo offlane... the game has developed A LOT since then (including like 2 rounds of slark nerfs), and even the pub meta seems mostly aware of this (i only ever see slark told to go mid or wanting to go mid when they random and there's already a better safelane hero)

and the reality is slark mid build is for the most part, the same as slark's lane build, perhaps minus one earlygame item plus one bottle... it's really easy to adapt for mid from the lane guide
posting on liquid sites in current year
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-01 04:10:19
December 01 2015 02:03 GMT
#4860
Deleting guides just before a major patch seems a bad idea no matter what. You never know what icefrog will do.

In the medium term, though, I've thought for a long time that you'd be better off with a Core/Support designation instead of a Lane/Middle. An awful lot of lane cores sent mid basically trade some sideshop items for a bottle, and vice versa.

Even if you keep separate guides for heroes who have a radical difference in skillbuild, I wouldn't be surprised if you came out ahead. You'd also have a system that relates much more easily to the games people watch.

It's not a high priority job, but I think you should consider it eventually.
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