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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 244

Forum Index > The Tavern
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ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
December 01 2015 21:46 GMT
#4861
drums is a good intermediate item after shadowblade if u wanna go straight into skadi.
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
December 01 2015 22:07 GMT
#4862
On December 01 2015 10:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea i have to admit im quite perplexed that torte is thinking of removing warlock mid before slark mid...

slark mid was like a thing when slark felt pub op, nobody knew how to deal with him, and you could even win with him from the solo offlane... the game has developed A LOT since then (including like 2 rounds of slark nerfs), and even the pub meta seems mostly aware of this (i only ever see slark told to go mid or wanting to go mid when they random and there's already a better safelane hero)

and the reality is slark mid build is for the most part, the same as slark's lane build, perhaps minus one earlygame item plus one bottle... it's really easy to adapt for mid from the lane guide


that's why i'd prefer the verbage go from "mid" and "lane" to "core" and "support"

for the most part, your cookie cutter builds will be very similar, and any major differences can be covered in a separate tab for "early game - solo mid" and "early game - safe lane farm"
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-01 23:07:19
December 01 2015 23:06 GMT
#4863
I mean there's lots of heroes that's not true for like Slardar offlane and Slardar carry have entirely different itemization goals with usually the only common items being Blink and BKB (the latter of which is bought at very different times in the game).

But yes, I've been consistently confused by Torte's unwillingness to use "support" as a designation. I suspect it came out of some desire to make these guides relevant to players at a skill level where support role assignment is not a real thing, but that also goes against his ostensible philosophy of having guides show how the hero is played at top level rather than what works for low level pubs.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
December 01 2015 23:36 GMT
#4864
[image loading]

1 million unique for Spectre

If interested in a timeline of 1 million hits and milestones, you can check it here: http://steamcommunity.com/id/0825771
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
December 01 2015 23:44 GMT
#4865
quelling blade should be in early game if anywhere

also it seems a number of pros favor treads over phase now, though i personally still favor phase
posting on liquid sites in current year
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-02 01:05:59
December 02 2015 01:02 GMT
#4866
We're not transitioning to Core/Support/Offlane because we're too far into this system of Lane/Middle/Jungle. If this was my main job and I had a lot of free time to convert everything to a different system, I could probably do it in a month's time.

I also expect a ton of new guides to be created and a lot of old ones to be deleted; it's such a huge undertaking that I can't see myself being able to fulfill it at a reasonable pace or with an apt ability to really follow-through on it. So maintaining all those new guides for the remaining long-term future is not something I could probably undertake.

This came up a few times already in the past and it was simply because originally this was intended for a specific target, but it expanded and my polices evolved to accommodate; but we were already too invested in this system to follow-through.

The current system also cheats in a way that I can designate a singular build and pretend it can be good for both styles of play (Safelane/Offlane) when that isn't necessarily true or fully applicable.

Short-version: It'd be too overwhelming to plan, establish and revise for me and I wouldn't have the time. Even when I'm taking a break, I still take an hour of my day to get caught up with stats, feedback post across different sites/platforms and double-check a few things (typos, formatting, builds I fear might be outdated).



Let me see if I can find an old post of mine stating the reason. I am still missing builds for offlane heroes like Nature's Prophet, Enchantress and Night Stalker. This project could probably be 175 if I tried.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
December 02 2015 01:37 GMT
#4867
On December 02 2015 08:44 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
quelling blade should be in early game if anywhere

also it seems a number of pros favor treads over phase now, though i personally still favor phase


i prefer phase too, but sometimes you just need the stats
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-05 20:24:54
December 02 2015 04:22 GMT
#4868
Lycan (Lane)
Lycan (Jungle)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Removed Skull Basher

Shadow Shaman (Lane)
Added Glimer Cape to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Moved Blink Dagger to Extension Items
Removed Mekansm
Removed Black King Bar
Removed Shiva's Guard
Removed Scythe of Vyse

Shadow Shaman (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Ether Shock 2. Shackles 3. Hex)
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Added Force Staff to Extension Items
Moved Bottle to Situational Items
Removed Black King Bar
Removed Mekansm
Removed Shiva's Guard
Removed Scythe of Vyse

Skywrath Mage (Lane)
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Moved Rod of Atos to Extension Items
Removed Tranquil Boots
Removed Null Talisman
Removed Scythe of Vyse
Removed Ethereal Blade


Skywrath Mage (Middle)
Added Power Treads to Core Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Extension Items
Moved Rod of Atos to Extension Items
Removed Arcane Boots
Removed Scythe of Vyse
Removed Ethereal Blade

Double-Check:
Lycan (Lane)
Lycan (Jungle) -- Itemization may be in an incorrect order; outdated with how he is played now. Improve Extension Item choices.

Night Stalker -- I don't understand his item build which is geared towards Urn, Drums, Aghs or Vlad's. Consider Hand of Midas?

Earth Spirit (Lane)
Earth Spirit (Middle) -- Very likely outdated itemization.

Techies -- Double-check

Slark (Middle) -- Add Ring of Aquila?

Witch Doctor
Added Arcane Boots to Core Items
Removed Power Treads

Slark (Middle)
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Ring of Aquila to Core Items
Added Monkey King Bar to "Luxury Items"
Added Moon Shard to "Luxury Items"
Added Linken's Sphere to "Luxury Items"
Removed Orchid of Malevolence
Removed Satanic

Slark (Lane)
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Monkey King Bar to "Luxury Items"
Added Moon Shard to "Luxury Items"
Added Linken's Sphere to "Luxury Items"
Removed Orchid of Malevolence
Removed Satanic

Alchemist (Lane)
Removed Battlefury
Removed Blade Mail

Alchemist (Middle)
Removed Blade Mail



# of Hero Texts Updated: 145
+ Show Spoiler +

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(Jungle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)

(Jungle/Lane)

(Jungle/Lane)





(Lane/Middle)



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(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
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LEFT TO DO:
n/a


All Hero Builds have been completely rewritten!

Took from September 28 to November 29 to rewrite over 145 Hero Builds (approx. 29 items and 4 abilities per hero + general hero summary), equaling over 235,000+ words written. [/big]
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
December 03 2015 22:29 GMT
#4869
Is mid Windranger (Mid) Force Staff Core / Blink Situational still the norm? It seems like for mid especially WR's generally favor the blink as core and the force staff as situational.

The Rod of Atos also seems like an odd inclusion.
Logo
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
December 03 2015 22:36 GMT
#4870
yah wr is hopelessly off i think

mael + aghs is nonbo

ideal progression is something like early phase/bottle/stick
core aghs blink
extension crit mkb bkb
situational hex deso
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-03 22:42:27
December 03 2015 22:40 GMT
#4871
I think Mael is maybe fine, I prefer no maelstorm, but mael is a little more flexible as an item and it helps you farm where as aghs + blink -> crit is more timing based and requires better play. So if you can't be aggressive for some reason or otherwise farm slowly the maelstorm is a bit more help in the build up.

I think I remember Torte and/or Yango giving a reasoning like that before.

Still maybe it's just too outdated now. I think most people could handle going right for something like aghs + blink.
Logo
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-03 22:43:10
December 03 2015 22:42 GMT
#4872
if you go mael its probably worth it to just go blink next since the whole point of mael is to be able to kill them with ult without needing aghs to do it. Well, and to speed ur farm slightly but not that much tbh.

Mael just doesn't synergize wtih anything in an aghs-centric build.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
December 03 2015 23:02 GMT
#4873
The build was previously straight Aghs back in 6.84; later changed to Mael -> Aghs.

I was suggested to include Blink to the blink; so we can definitely change it
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-04 01:08:07
December 04 2015 01:04 GMT
#4874
You get Mael to kill heroes that you don't need Blink to solo-kill but can't do so without a damage item investment.

It's not really a nonbo with Agha though. One doesn't make the other worse, and usually the only item you're considering after Mael is Agha anyway.

Farming isn't the reason you get Mael, although it helps it a little bit.

On December 04 2015 07:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
if you go mael its probably worth it to just go blink next since the whole point of mael is to be able to kill them with ult without needing aghs to do it. Well, and to speed ur farm slightly but not that much tbh.

Don't really agree.

If there exists a hero in the game that you need BOTH Blink and Mael to kill, it's not really worth your investment over just getting Agha and preserving your own tempo.

Both items serve the need of killing heroes pre-Agha, it's just Blink lets you threaten heroes that you need mobility more than damage to kill, while Mael serves the opposite case. In either case you leverage your early tempo into getting an Agha.
Moderator
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
December 04 2015 02:55 GMT
#4875
I still get mael against illusion heroes, but aghs first is correct in 90% of games (all progamers doing aghs first too). Usually they go aghs->blink->damage item, which is either crit deso mkb or mael.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
December 04 2015 06:52 GMT
#4876
Theorycrafting on Slark (Mid) Aquila - It's sort of a half midas with nice stats. With Pact maxed at 7, and fast jungle movement from his ult, the limiter on Slark's jungling is how often he can Pact. Between the mana regen from Aquila and its +agi +damage against the camps Pact doesn't work well on, the ring recoups its gold cost in about the same time frame as a Midas would. And since this farm is bursty, with gradual regen in between, he gets the full benefit even if he spends a lot of time looking for kills. Conclusion: adding an Aquila to the Core won't slow down the Skadi.

It plays a bit differently in practice, though. The extra mana in the pool lets a good player save their bottle charges, and the bottle charges get used to offset the mana cost of fighting. So it lets the Slark take fights more often, and the extra ~30% physical EHP and ~25% DPS make more fights winnable (assuming level 9 Slark with bottle, str treads and no stored essence).

Pre-shadow blade, it's better DPS than a shadow blade would be. Post-shadow blade, it helps the shadow blade play-style function. That just leaves a ~3 minute window where the shadow blade is awkwardly delayed, but Slark can flash-farm during that window and can skirmish just fine without shadow blade as long as a teammate initiates.

So that's the argument for Aquila even in a bottle mid build.

On a slightly related note, I've modified my Slark(Lane) play to start with Ring of Protection and pick up Stout Shield before boots from the side shop.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
December 04 2015 18:56 GMT
#4877
[image loading]

1 million unique for Slark (Lane)

If interested in a timeline of 1 million hits and milestones, you can check it here: http://steamcommunity.com/id/0825771
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
December 04 2015 18:58 GMT
#4878
in 0/100 games will satanic be the item on slark fyi
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
December 04 2015 19:29 GMT
#4879
On December 05 2015 03:58 Sn0_Man wrote:
in 0/100 games will satanic be the item on slark fyi

i would say same about orchid nowadays but i might be wrong
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-04 19:33:59
December 04 2015 19:32 GMT
#4880
orchid is questionable but has something to recommend it (ability to solo-kill escape heroes)
satanic is just bad. you already have obscene sustain with ult etc and if you absolutely need something more than ult buy a refresher.

PS i've seen moonshard slark due to how well attackspeed works plus the night vision works well with his already-boosted night vision to make him a veritable hunter in the night (huehuehue). probably instead of butterfly which just isn't that impressive.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
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