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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 227

Forum Index > The Tavern
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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 06 2015 17:45 GMT
#4521
1. Going to add more regen
2. Going to add a Mango to Timbersaw as a test
3. Going to try and get in 5 new hero descriptions

I'm extremely busy settling in so I apologize for the lack of updates. Especially after ESL NYC happened as I would want o use that new comp. info to update some uncertain hero builds.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-06 17:50:44
October 06 2015 17:49 GMT
#4522
EDIT: Forgot 6.85, lol.
Moderator
TomatoBisque
Profile Joined March 2013
United States6290 Posts
October 06 2015 17:50 GMT
#4523
Mango price was reduced by 25 in the latest patch, should be able to afford 1 branch
rip
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-08 16:12:03
October 07 2015 04:13 GMT
#4524
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 15:56:58
October 07 2015 15:53 GMT
#4525
There's no way u can get away with 1 point in reactive on timber either. The difference between 5 armor 5 regen and 10 armor 10 regen kinda speaks for itself.

the build is still 2 points in it although my friend who is Top 50 dotabuff timber (tm) goes 3 in reactive virtually every game (before 6). Moral of that story being err on the side of more E not less.

Ability combo cheat sheets sounds great (stuff like disruptor Q then glimpse on the 3rd explosion to send them back to where you first Q'd them) really helps players feel like they are getting the inside scoop on the hero. A guide can't teach them how to play dota but it can teach them how to play THAT HERO inside their dota knowledge.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
October 07 2015 17:41 GMT
#4526
i really like the idea of putting in relevant combos into the guides.

itll be difficult to concisely explain stuff like the disruptor trick to fit the character limit, though..wont it?
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 17:53:35
October 07 2015 17:49 GMT
#4527
On October 08 2015 00:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
There's no way u can get away with 1 point in reactive on timber either. The difference between 5 armor 5 regen and 10 armor 10 regen kinda speaks for itself.

the build is still 2 points in it although my friend who is Top 50 dotabuff timber (tm) goes 3 in reactive virtually every game (before 6). Moral of that story being err on the side of more E not less.

Ability combo cheat sheets sounds great (stuff like disruptor Q then glimpse on the 3rd explosion to send them back to where you first Q'd them) really helps players feel like they are getting the inside scoop on the hero. A guide can't teach them how to play dota but it can teach them how to play THAT HERO inside their dota knowledge.


The old build was 1 in reactive armour.

We can swing for two. but does that mean everything is just pushed over? Dotabuff shows everyone getting 1 in Armour.




The ability cheat sheet thing stems from how much praise the Oracle got (but needs updating). The only issue is yes 1. Character Limit and 2. No specific area to place it so readers KNOW where to look. But usually it is in the most relevant area (usually abilities, maybe an item once or twice if it is core).

On October 08 2015 02:41 BluemoonSC wrote:
i really like the idea of putting in relevant combos into the guides.

itll be difficult to concisely explain stuff like the disruptor trick to fit the character limit, though..wont it?


For all the current guides, it's in already; so you can see what it is like.

It's a matter of breaking information. So for Disruptor:

Q -> Tip about how it is a countdown
W -> Breakdown of combo (Q -> W -> E -> R)
E -> Some of its flaws (heroes can blink out)
R -> standard
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 17:54:01
October 07 2015 17:53 GMT
#4528
You might have to 2-part the combo hints
like on disruptor Q "Also useful as a timing tool for your glimpse"
then on glimpse "If you glimpse them as the 3rd hit of static strike goes off, they will return to where they were the instant you cast it on them"
although that is still pretty dam long

I think timber goes e/q/e/w/w/r/w/w/ but it's hard to say when u need timberchain. If ur lane is bad enough that u can barely get xp then suddenly u want like e/w/w/e/w/r/ since q is only good if u can get aggressive and even the 2nd point in e sux if u cant stand in the lane.

E: 2slwo i guess
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 07 2015 17:55 GMT
#4529
On October 08 2015 02:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
You might have to 2-part the combo hints
like on disruptor Q "Also useful as a timing tool for your glimpse"
then on glimpse "If you glimpse them as the 3rd hit of static strike goes off, they will return to where they were the instant you cast it on them"
although that is still pretty dam long

I think timber goes e/q/e/w/w/r/w/w/ but it's hard to say when u need timberchain. If ur lane is bad enough that u can barely get xp then suddenly u want like e/w/w/e/w/r/ since q is only good if u can get aggressive and even the 2nd point in e sux if u cant stand in the lane.


I edited my post, but most top Dotabuff players get 1 in Reactive Armour. Can you confirm? You can assume that things are going well for the Timber player.

I always go on the assumption that they are doing well or they are confident in their play.




I will edit Disruptor momentarily to show you guys what it is like.

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
October 07 2015 18:07 GMT
#4530
On October 08 2015 02:49 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 00:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
There's no way u can get away with 1 point in reactive on timber either. The difference between 5 armor 5 regen and 10 armor 10 regen kinda speaks for itself.

the build is still 2 points in it although my friend who is Top 50 dotabuff timber (tm) goes 3 in reactive virtually every game (before 6). Moral of that story being err on the side of more E not less.

Ability combo cheat sheets sounds great (stuff like disruptor Q then glimpse on the 3rd explosion to send them back to where you first Q'd them) really helps players feel like they are getting the inside scoop on the hero. A guide can't teach them how to play dota but it can teach them how to play THAT HERO inside their dota knowledge.


The old build was 1 in reactive armour.

We can swing for two. but does that mean everything is just pushed over? Dotabuff shows everyone getting 1 in Armour.




The ability cheat sheet thing stems from how much praise the Oracle got (but needs updating). The only issue is yes 1. Character Limit and 2. No specific area to place it so readers KNOW where to look. But usually it is in the most relevant area (usually abilities, maybe an item once or twice if it is core).

Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 02:41 BluemoonSC wrote:
i really like the idea of putting in relevant combos into the guides.

itll be difficult to concisely explain stuff like the disruptor trick to fit the character limit, though..wont it?


For all the current guides, it's in already; so you can see what it is like.

It's a matter of breaking information. So for Disruptor:

Q -> Tip about how it is a countdown
W -> Breakdown of combo (Q -> W -> E -> R)
E -> Some of its flaws (heroes can blink out)
R -> standard


*if you thunderstrike them, and plant the disruption before glimpse lands, unless they are a TA that just casted refraction, they shouldn't be able to blink out

but again, you're looking at a huge description
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 07 2015 18:13 GMT
#4531
Disruptor

Here's Disruptor's updated description.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 07 2015 18:14 GMT
#4532
On October 08 2015 02:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
You might have to 2-part the combo hints
like on disruptor Q "Also useful as a timing tool for your glimpse"
then on glimpse "If you glimpse them as the 3rd hit of static strike goes off, they will return to where they were the instant you cast it on them"
although that is still pretty dam long

I think timber goes e/q/e/w/w/r/w/w/ but it's hard to say when u need timberchain. If ur lane is bad enough that u can barely get xp then suddenly u want like e/w/w/e/w/r/ since q is only good if u can get aggressive and even the 2nd point in e sux if u cant stand in the lane.

E: 2slwo i guess


Are you taking even enough damage to justify two points? Seems like 1 would be sufficient.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 18:36:41
October 07 2015 18:26 GMT
#4533
its kinda close cuz extra points in W get u out of sticky situations but ur hero is so bad in lane unless u have e stacks up that it's generally worth trying to have 8+ up forever and abuse the fact that it makes you mildly invincible.

I keep writing up essays in my head about how timber works in the offlane but it's basically that he's so fucking shit compared to literally every other offlaner that ur always stuck hoping the enemy gifts u farm. And if they do, the best way to abuse it is E stacks.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 07 2015 18:39 GMT
#4534
On October 08 2015 03:26 Sn0_Man wrote:
its kinda close cuz extra points in W get u out of sticky situations but ur hero is so bad in lane unless u have e stacks up that it's generally worth trying to have 8+ up forever and abuse the fact that it makes you mildly invincible.

I keep writing up essays in my head about how timber works in the offlane but it's basically that he's so fucking shit compared to literally every other offlaner that ur always stuck hoping the enemy gifts u farm. And if they do, the best way to abuse it is E stacks.


The thing is is that I don't see it much at all on Dotabuff nor during The International: http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/2733?date=&hero=timbersaw&region=&duration=


So while we can orient the build towards catering to the faults of new players, we also assume that they are not receiving as much harassment or against players who are not as confident/capable of playing their hero compared to the guide user (especially when he's using a guide).

We'll keep it at 1 for now unless there's strong vocal call for it from more.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
October 07 2015 18:53 GMT
#4535
On October 08 2015 03:26 Sn0_Man wrote:
its kinda close cuz extra points in W get u out of sticky situations but ur hero is so bad in lane unless u have e stacks up that it's generally worth trying to have 8+ up forever and abuse the fact that it makes you mildly invincible.

I keep writing up essays in my head about how timber works in the offlane but it's basically that he's so fucking shit compared to literally every other offlaner that ur always stuck hoping the enemy gifts u farm. And if they do, the best way to abuse it is E stacks.


at the same time, you gotta remember that these guides are aimed at the people who often see farm gifted to them..with that in mind, sometimes timber can get really ballsy and make some crazy plays if you're not leveling E too much.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 19:12:40
October 07 2015 19:10 GMT
#4536
ur other points really don't enable aggression nearly so much as ur e does though...

u get 50 dmg per point in q, 200 range and 40 dmg per point in w (after the first points which are HUGE value for sure).

I could see an argument for e/q/w/e/w/r I guess but thats extending the time ur stuck at 5 stacks in e which simply doesn't make u very tanky
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
October 07 2015 19:54 GMT
#4537
yea idk on one hand you want to be going for every cs that wont get you killed with timber because he is super farm hungry but on the other hand 1411 is probably the highest kill potential build at 7 if you can make it there
posting on liquid sites in current year
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-07 20:41:57
October 07 2015 20:26 GMT
#4538
On October 08 2015 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
Are you taking even enough damage to justify two points? Seems like 1 would be sufficient.

You draw creep aggro to build up and maintain stacks. That lets you make a lot of aggressively plays that you would not otherwise.

On October 08 2015 03:39 Torte de Lini wrote:
The thing is is that I don't see it much at all on Dotabuff nor during The International: http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/2733?date=&hero=timbersaw&region=&duration=

Small sample size for something that varies hugely from game-to-game. Timber's one of the heroes where a fixed skill order is actually awful because what you skill is so game dependent. Literally any possible permutation of skills that does not involve Stats at level 1-3 is reasonable some of the time.

None of the "top" players on Dotabuff for Timber have more than 3 games on him in the last 2-3 months. And even among that small number of games, there are several that have 2 Reactive before 6.

On October 08 2015 03:53 BluemoonSC wrote:
at the same time, you gotta remember that these guides are aimed at the people who often see farm gifted to them..with that in mind, sometimes timber can get really ballsy and make some crazy plays if you're not leveling E too much.

You actually get to make more aggressive plays with high Reactive at level 1-3. It's only with rank 3/4 chain where you start being able to really abuse its kill potential because the range is long enough.

On October 08 2015 04:54 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea idk on one hand you want to be going for every cs that wont get you killed with timber because he is super farm hungry but on the other hand 1411 is probably the highest kill potential build at 7 if you can make it there

Maximum kill potential at level 7 vs. level 8 isn't hugely different because the level 7-8 XP is quite low. 8->9 is the first big spike in levelup XP.

It's like how QoP can afford to get 2 SS for laning--level 7->8 XP required doesn't go up relative to earlier levels so delaying a level 7 maxed nuke to level 8 is not a big deal if it results in stronger laning.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 07 2015 21:14 GMT
#4539
On October 08 2015 05:26 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
Are you taking even enough damage to justify two points? Seems like 1 would be sufficient.

You draw creep aggro to build up and maintain stacks. That lets you make a lot of aggressively plays that you would not otherwise.

Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 03:39 Torte de Lini wrote:
The thing is is that I don't see it much at all on Dotabuff nor during The International: http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/2733?date=&hero=timbersaw&region=&duration=

Small sample size for something that varies hugely from game-to-game. Timber's one of the heroes where a fixed skill order is actually awful because what you skill is so game dependent. Literally any possible permutation of skills that does not involve Stats at level 1-3 is reasonable some of the time.

None of the "top" players on Dotabuff for Timber have more than 3 games on him in the last 2-3 months. And even among that small number of games, there are several that have 2 Reactive before 6.

Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 03:53 BluemoonSC wrote:
at the same time, you gotta remember that these guides are aimed at the people who often see farm gifted to them..with that in mind, sometimes timber can get really ballsy and make some crazy plays if you're not leveling E too much.

You actually get to make more aggressive plays with high Reactive at level 1-3. It's only with rank 3/4 chain where you start being able to really abuse its kill potential because the range is long enough.

Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 04:54 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea idk on one hand you want to be going for every cs that wont get you killed with timber because he is super farm hungry but on the other hand 1411 is probably the highest kill potential build at 7 if you can make it there

Maximum kill potential at level 7 vs. level 8 isn't hugely different because the level 7-8 XP is quite low. 8->9 is the first big spike in levelup XP.

It's like how QoP can afford to get 2 SS for laning--level 7->8 XP required doesn't go up relative to earlier levels so delaying a level 7 maxed nuke to level 8 is not a big deal if it results in stronger laning.


The link to The International is not the sample size, it is just the easiest way to frame my point in which both public play and professional play mirror my sentiment.




I wish I had a PC to test these builds. I feel better with 2 points in Reactive Armour, but despise delaying max Timber Chain.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8933 Posts
October 07 2015 23:37 GMT
#4540
On October 08 2015 05:26 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 03:14 Torte de Lini wrote:
Are you taking even enough damage to justify two points? Seems like 1 would be sufficient.

You draw creep aggro to build up and maintain stacks. That lets you make a lot of aggressively plays that you would not otherwise.

Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 03:39 Torte de Lini wrote:
The thing is is that I don't see it much at all on Dotabuff nor during The International: http://www.dotabuff.com/esports/leagues/2733?date=&hero=timbersaw&region=&duration=

Small sample size for something that varies hugely from game-to-game. Timber's one of the heroes where a fixed skill order is actually awful because what you skill is so game dependent. Literally any possible permutation of skills that does not involve Stats at level 1-3 is reasonable some of the time.

None of the "top" players on Dotabuff for Timber have more than 3 games on him in the last 2-3 months. And even among that small number of games, there are several that have 2 Reactive before 6.

Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 03:53 BluemoonSC wrote:
at the same time, you gotta remember that these guides are aimed at the people who often see farm gifted to them..with that in mind, sometimes timber can get really ballsy and make some crazy plays if you're not leveling E too much.

You actually get to make more aggressive plays with high Reactive at level 1-3. It's only with rank 3/4 chain where you start being able to really abuse its kill potential because the range is long enough.

Show nested quote +
On October 08 2015 04:54 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yea idk on one hand you want to be going for every cs that wont get you killed with timber because he is super farm hungry but on the other hand 1411 is probably the highest kill potential build at 7 if you can make it there

Maximum kill potential at level 7 vs. level 8 isn't hugely different because the level 7-8 XP is quite low. 8->9 is the first big spike in levelup XP.

It's like how QoP can afford to get 2 SS for laning--level 7->8 XP required doesn't go up relative to earlier levels so delaying a level 7 maxed nuke to level 8 is not a big deal if it results in stronger laning.


that's a fair point. for some reason i thought that we were talking about 3 points in reactive armor though, my mistake.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
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