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 Timbersaw
New Skill Build: E Q E W W R W W Q Q R Q E E R (1. Timber Chain 2. Whirling Death 3. Reactive Armor)
Added Enchanted Mango to Starting Items
Removed Clarity x2
To watch for
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 itemization needs to be redone, wait for patch to play out
- Double-check
 skill order
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 redo Lane/Middle build for Kunkka again
- Holding off Enchanted Mango inclusion until more development
- revisit
 later
Hero Texts Updated:
 (Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
 (Jungle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
 (Jungle/Lane)
I think players will enjoy the "combo" cheat-sheet I added in some of the ability descriptions. I am overhauling all text to include these cheat-sheets, better nuances of some of the heroes and a one-phrase "flaw" of their's in the general description.
It's a slow process, but we have until 6.86 (1 1/2 months).
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United States47024 Posts
EQWE or EWQE is more reasonable for Timbersaw than EQE, since most people playing that hero for the first time will need Chain as an escape when they don't know their limits yet.
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On October 09 2015 01:16 TheYango wrote:
EQWE or EWQE is more reasonable for Timbersaw than EQE, since most people playing that hero for the first time will need Chain as an escape when they don't know their limits yet.
I would prefer EWE
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yah thats fine i remember level 1 chain being shorter than it actually is so its fine getting it at 2 or 3
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United States47024 Posts
Rank 1 Q is super value for the stat reduction--15% prime stat loss fucks with lasthitting as well as harassment/trading power. The only kinds of lanes where I'd go EWE is vs. something like Drow where you never get to Q her at low levels anyway (and even then, you still might want rank 1 Q depending on the support). For a "generic" lane I'd want the point in Q.
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On October 09 2015 01:26 TheYango wrote:
Rank 1 Q is super value for the stat reduction. The only kinds of lanes where I'd go EWE is vs. something like Drow where you never get to Q her at low levels anyway. For a "generic" lane I'd want the point in Q.
I agree on its value, I just don't see it being used practically during the first level since it won't "kill" the enemy per se. From my personal experience, I never use Q early on regardless.
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United States47024 Posts
Then you're playing it wrong, because against most heroes you're looking at -7 or -8 damage + auxiliary stat loss (-max hp or -max mana for Str/Intel heroes respectively). That hugely affects the enemy carry's lasthitting or their support's ability to harass/trade with you. At 70 mana, you'll use it basically all the time vs. melee carries, and still reasonably often against short ranged carries or supports that don't know how to space it properly.
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On October 09 2015 01:30 TheYango wrote:
Then you're playing it wrong, because against most heroes you're looking at -7 or -8 damage + auxiliary stat loss (-max hp or -max mana for Str/Intel heroes respectively). That hugely affects the enemy carry's lasthitting or their support's ability to harass/trade with you.
As I said, I'm not saying it isn't valuable, but when I look at a scenario of using my Q near a foe; that means I have to go up to them and do it; either extending myself to their position or using it near the creeps in the lane; pushing it forward. At level 2, that's pretty scary as a relatively weak Timber player.
E: I will shower and sit at my desk and take a look at some Dotabuff players who are putting two points in it.
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United States47024 Posts
If you're too scared to do that, then 2 E before 6 also has no point because the only way you get value from 2 E is intentionally aggroing creeps to build stacks (which also already pushes the lane) and playing aggressive. The only way to efficiently get to 10 stacks is to get hit by creeps--you don't build stack quickly enough or retain them reliably enough if you're not using creep aggro to get small damage instances.
Like if you're going to play totally pussy then the build is EWWQ.
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On October 09 2015 01:35 TheYango wrote:
If you're too scared to do that, then 2 E before 6 also has no point because the only way you get value from 2 E is intentionally aggroing creeps to build stacks (which also already pushes the lane) and playing aggressive. You don't build stack quickly enough or retain them reliably enough if you're not using creep aggro to get small damage instances.
Like if you're going to play totally pussy then the build is EWWQ.
Yes, the previous build. E: almost
When I was learning offlane, I was taught: "1. Don't die 2. Just get levels". I understand Timber becomes an exception to those rules due to his passive, but it doesn't necessarily shake off old habits.
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United States47024 Posts
That's how you learned offlane because you were playing pre-6.79 where offlane couldn't do much more than that.
It's straight up the wrong way to play or learn offlane post-6.79. It's not just that Timber's different, it's that offlane isn't just the "soak xp" lane anymore after Icefrog made it easier. If these guides are directed at helping new players, then help new players, don't cater to the bad habits of players who were playing before 6.79 and somehow stayed bad after playing the game for 2+ years.
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Way back, I was in a conundrum about whether to stick with something easier for newcoming players or sticking with the standard. For heroes like Storm Spirit, I reverted to the standard.
We'll do similar here after I take another look.
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What Yango is saying is that the standard has changed
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SoCal8933 Posts
On October 09 2015 02:11 tehh4ck3r wrote:
What Yango is saying is that the standard has changed
its true, but timber offlane has always been different from most offlaners because of his natural ability to take advantage of greedy plays and get really aggressive. the playstyle of all offlaners has changed, sure, but even after nerfs and whatnot, timbersaw is still a hero that loves to get into it with the enemy safelaners, disrupt their farm, and potentially get a kill if they have a weak duo lane (in a pub)
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I dunno timber's just one of those heroes who's never going to have a set skillbuild.
You want to be EQEW if you're manning up or EWWQ if you're pussying out. I'm not convinced that promoting a compromise as standard is a good idea.
For example, EQWE is kind of awkward because the slow second point in E really hurts your ability to become an immovable object in lane, but the point in Q hurts your ability to gtfo.
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yah unsurprisingly u can't cookie cutter it at all also eqeqw is a mid build which is different
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1 point in E pre-6: 9 Players
2 points in E pre-6: 7
Total players: 14 (players who used both types of builds were counted in each category as 1)
Counted per player rather than per match to account for "preferred styles".
We'll just go with what the majority of everyone says here because this is too difficult for me to decide; especially since I am not a professed good Timber player.
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SoCal8933 Posts
I think the indecision stems from looking at professional builds. I'm sure they play in a more ideal fashion, but your guides assume that the user is inexperienced with the hero and needs help picking their skills.
you know they're going to be in the offlane, so an inexperienced offlaner would likely err on the side of being less aggressive. ewwq is how I would skill maxing chain followed by your nuke if we're considering who the guide is aimed for bc they probably won't be in the middle of the creep wave, taking stacks of their passive since they won't know they can get away with it.
I would, however, put a note in the guide talking about how their e works and if they feel comfortable, to take an extra point in it. dunno if that's feasible with your guides.
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I mean now we're back on the fundamental "do you design the guides to mitigate people's suck, or do you encourage them to step up to a build that's probably beyond them?"
My vote would be EQEWW with a massive, underlined, circled in red YOU MUST STAND IN CREEPS TO PLAY TIMBERSAW in the description, but really anything is fine.
This hero's skillbuild is beyond flexible, so nothing you put will be optimal more than 20% of the time.
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EPT
