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On September 29 2015 20:07 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2015 19:48 Torte de Lini wrote:
I got some pushback for wanting to do that.
Also for Riki: was thinking of adding Sange and Yasha again AFTER Diffusal
Might be time to bring back the dual-build for Doom. you can probably run two core builds for doom. as for riki, sny isn't a horrible idea to put before diffusal. or at least the casual yasha. but im not gonna lie, im biased towards a casual yasha on agi heroes like riki, slark, etc.
riki's diffusal power spike is so huge that i wouldn't want to slow it down at all
i don't think riki is good in the 1 position, but 1 position is the only place you would ever consider delaying your diffusal. you can solo kill so many heroes with diffusal when you get it, while your farming speed is questionable, even with yasha. you already have a slow in smoke cloud and another in diffusal, which is way more useful for sticking onto targets than the yasha movespeed. can't see why you'd want yasha before diff.
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SoCal8933 Posts
i dont think tuna has an offlane guide for riki does he? definitely wouldn't delay it there bc you're likely not getting many last hits
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all right but even as a safelane carry i'd call it iffy because riki just wants to start snowballing via kills asap, and yasha doesn't help do that nearly as much as diffusal in any circumstance.
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Tried the Spectre(Lane) guide. The skill build seemed terrible - ranks 2-4 in Q felt useless.
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On September 30 2015 11:46 Buckyman wrote:
Tried the Spectre(Lane) guide. The skill build seemed terrible - ranks 2-4 in Q seemed useless.
i've mentioned the possibility of 141 being a better cookie cutter than 411 now but the difference between 8% movespeed buff/slow and 20% is still pretty big
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On September 30 2015 11:46 Buckyman wrote:
Tried the Spectre(Lane) guide. The skill build seemed terrible - ranks 2-4 in Q felt useless.
What was your playstyle?
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United States47024 Posts
On September 30 2015 11:48 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 11:46 Buckyman wrote:
Tried the Spectre(Lane) guide. The skill build seemed terrible - ranks 2-4 in Q seemed useless. i've mentioned the possibility of 141 being a better cookie cutter than 411 now but the difference between 8% movespeed buff/slow and 20% is still pretty big
It's really more common to even-level the two I think, something like 2-2-1 at 5 and 3-3-1-1 at 8.
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On September 30 2015 11:48 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 11:46 Buckyman wrote:
Tried the Spectre(Lane) guide. The skill build seemed terrible - ranks 2-4 in Q seemed useless. i've mentioned the possibility of 141 being a better cookie cutter than 411 now but the difference between 8% movespeed buff/slow and 20% is still pretty big
Don't know chasing but for bailing out the gank, you'll dagger trees anyways. Desolate works incredibly well now which means you can desolate at least 2 creeps of a wave for better last hitting and level 4 deso in level 7 may be huge with ulti, I'd argue even better than a dagger than eats up %60 of your mana pool.
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On September 30 2015 17:21 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 11:46 Buckyman wrote:
Tried the Spectre(Lane) guide. The skill build seemed terrible - ranks 2-4 in Q felt useless. What was your playstyle?
Dictated by having a defensive support in lane rather than an aggressive one, vs. a dual lane. Spent a lot of time jungling slowly (rather than quickly with extra dispersion or Desolate). Did not Haunt just to steal kills.
HOWEVER, since my previous post I found out that Spectral Dagger can't be dispelled, and therefore could have been used more aggressively against their Slark and Juggernaut.
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idk to me that sounds like a laundry-list of "how not to play dagger spec." For one thing, haunting to steal kills is what that build is for.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the build. 2-2-1 or some other permutation might be a little better, but it's a minor difference that's going to depend on the situation.
Just back on doom briefly, I'm pretty strongly opposed to dual-core guides. I think they're very unclear. The doom guides are pretty okay now, imo, although I still think you're over-valuing SnY and probably midas.
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SoCal8933 Posts
On September 30 2015 10:19 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
all right but even as a safelane carry i'd call it iffy because riki just wants to start snowballing via kills asap, and yasha doesn't help do that nearly as much as diffusal in any circumstance.
yeah I suppose if you're running a safe lane riki, he should be farming heroes, not creeps. fair point.
about spectre: with the desolate buff, 1-4-1-1 sounds really strong.. but having the dagger slow and damage to KS is important too..
I cant see what boots you have for her in the build bc im at work, but if you want 1-4-1-1, perhaps phase would have to be mandatory to make sure when you haunt, you can stick to a target and get that KS.. but 4-1-1-1 or 2-2-1-1 get treads bc you'll have the extra slow from the lvls in dagger?
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On October 01 2015 23:29 Belisarius wrote:
idk to me that sounds like a laundry-list of "how not to play dagger spec." For one thing, haunting to steal kills is what that build is for.
What!? Blowing a long duration ultimate and my entire mana pool and leaving a safe farming position in order to get a kill that my teammate would have gotten anyway is objectively terrible.
(E) Unrelated, but for some reason Spectre (Lane's) starting items have two branches and spare cash, when she could start circlet instead for a faster Aquila.
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United States47024 Posts
If you actually leave the lane at all you come straight back. Haunting for a kill should never result in non-negligible lost farming time.
The ideal scenario is that Haunt, Reality, Dagger, Reality back to your lane before the Dagger gets the kill because having the killing hero be outside of the XP radius when the kill is credited results in significantly more gold and XP gained (since they get the kill XP/gold but do not contribute to the number of heroes for which assist gold/XP is credited). This is the same logic for why it's ideal for Invoker Sunstrike or Zeus ulti to actually get the kill rather than just assisting.
Sometimes this isn't feasible though because your team needs more damage than Haunt illusion hits + Dagger.
On October 02 2015 04:55 Buckyman wrote:
(E) Unrelated, but for some reason Spectre (Lane's) starting items have two branches and spare cash, when she could start circlet instead for a faster Aquila.
It should never result in a faster Aquila because sidelanes should never have priority on using courier unless mid doesn't need it for bottle-crow or items. Sidelanes can buy side shop items while mid can't. So a gold difference of 165 doesn't actually result in an item getting to you faster most of the time if you're respecting mid's courier usage.
Sidelanes interrupting bottle-crow to send minor items actually tilts me super hard when I'm playing mid, lol.
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On October 02 2015 06:53 TheYango wrote:
It should never result in a faster Aquila because sidelanes should never have priority on using courier unless mid doesn't need it for bottle-crow or items. Sidelanes can buy side shop items while mid can't. So a gold difference of 165 doesn't actually result in an item getting to you faster most of the time if you're respecting mid's courier usage.
Sidelanes interrupting bottle-crow to send minor items actually tilts me super hard when I'm playing mid, lol.
If this were the case, there'd be no point in even having Wraith Band or Aquilla in the early game items. But I'm assuming since they are early game rather than core, there's some reasonable way to have them in my inventory during the early game (much less before boots), given that I didn't start with the wraith band recipe.
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United States47024 Posts
??? You still get Aquila early game, but it's basically never the first thing you buy. Having Aquila somewhere between minute 5 and 10 is still early game.
Earliest time you're going to reasonably expect to use courier is ~4 minutes (i.e. first rune spawn after chick is upgraded so if mid gets the rune he won't need to cour his Bottle). From 0 to 4 minutes, there's a ton of not-Aquila stuff you will be buying in lane--PMS, Stick, Boots, etc. Having Aquila 100g faster doesn't mean much when all of that stuff comes 65g slower if you started with a Circlet since you can't buy Aquila piece-by-piece.
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SoCal8933 Posts
i mean if you really want to, get a RoP and buy your basi at the side shop..however i think that's excessive considering PMS probably has more value in any situation you'd want to get a quick RoP
just wait for the courier at get it after your boots /shrug
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You don't have enough gold to get rop, unfortunately. If you did then 2xregen+stout+rop would be my default start on like half the carries in the pool.
Branches are better than circlet because they give you the same stats and leave more gold for pms/boots/stick/oov/etc. If you were really keen I guess you could get slippers for the fastest possible PMS, but that seems unnecessary.
You should never ever lose time or gold haunting to KS. Even if you're slow and miss the reality back, you can just TP.
It's also worth pointing out that dagger spec in jungle should be stacking and daggering camps. It speeds her jungle up significantly and it's not hard to courier clarities.
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Hey Torte de Lini, I still can't edit textboxes on my guides. How do you fix this, or work around it? Is it a browser issue?
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EPT
