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United States47024 Posts
PMS is pretty much situational or better on basically every melee Agi carry, likewise any melee safelane carry should have QB as situational or better.
You can have it on all of them or none of them but having QB and PMS for some of these heroes and not for others is just confusing to people, because they're more or less equally compelling on all of them for similar reasons.
Like, why would you remove PMS from Spectre but keep it on Faceless Void? The two heroes basically get the item for similar reasons. Maybe you end up deciding that low-level players don't leverage the benefits of small items well at their level of play (which I think is pretty presumptuous, but whatever), but that decision should be consistent across all relevant heroes. Having some of them keep them and some of them not is just going to confuse people.
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another minor thing: i don't know where vit booster was originally, but i consider it the best cookie cutter follow up to getting the radiance. you can decide from there to go straight for heart or to get the manta before finishing heart, but that vit booster helps a lot with surviving burst at that point in the game, especially because you should be at level 14 for level 4 dispersion before your next item after radiance is complete. straight manta is better for accelerating farm, but in close games if not having that vit booster means an extra death, then it wasn't worth skipping.
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On September 28 2015 02:13 TheYango wrote:
PMS is pretty much situational or better on basically every melee Agi carry, likewise any melee safelane carry should have QB as situational or better.
You can have it on all of them or none of them but having QB and PMS for some of these heroes and not for others is just confusing to people, because they're more or less equally compelling on all of them for similar reasons.
Like, why would you remove PMS from Spectre but keep it on Faceless Void? The two heroes basically get the item for similar reasons. Maybe you end up deciding that low-level players don't leverage the benefits of small items well at their level of play (which I think is pretty presumptuous, but whatever), but that decision should be consistent across all relevant heroes. Having some of them keep them and some of them not is just going to confuse people.
We can add PMS (and QB under Core) back, but traditionally I want to avoid filling up the situational items slot with too many early game items that neither make or break the hero in the long-run.
ed
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i'd honestly argue for keeping qb in early game and not situational because the only games you don't want it are the games where you want so many other earlygame items you dont have a slot for it (pms+wand+aquila+urn+boots+tp) and massing early game items is suited for an aggressive playstyle which is hard to pull off for people new to spec (and more situational to even attempt). qb, on the other hand, always helps with last hitting with her low base damage, and jungling, which she will usually do some of.
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Have to add my voice to the dissent over the idea of removing PMS in particular from Spectre. Personally I find it too useful an item to just leave out entirely. Sometimes I skip over QB but I find myself buying PMS a LOT to help stabilise my laning.
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On September 27 2015 20:21 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 02:00 Buckyman wrote:
Torte de Lini, are there any particular guides you want me to subject to the rigors of 2k mmr pub play? Doom (Jungle) That's what's on my list of heroes to test right now ):
Since it's a jungle build, I sanity tested it in some bot games. The first two games, I had trouble (dying to neutrals or being forced back to fountain before level 3) despite starting by consuming 'recommended' creeps and collecting the bounty rune. After that, I added a single iron branch to my starting items and jungling went smoother in general. I'm not sure how much of the improvement was the branch vs. better play, but the branch seemed like the difference between first back at level 2 and first back at level 3.
The sanity test passed in that, in the post-branch games, I hit level 6 before the enemy dual lanes.
I also feel like the tangos should have a guide description that mentions using one to make a choke point.
Note that I still haven't tried an actual game.
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Testing on a single jungle run is going to be more affected by which creeps you got and how many times you screwed up than whether or not you bought a branch.
On PMS etc, I've said this before, but I think removing small items in favour of rushing big ones is the absolute worst thing you can do.
Players will naturally tunnelvision on their radiance/BF/whatever and skip as many things as they think they can get away with. Since the average player will be opting to do this more-or-less at random, your guides should be pushing against that tendency, not encouraging it.
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I am seriously dreading doing all these text updates.
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On September 28 2015 11:58 Buckyman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 20:21 Torte de Lini wrote:On September 27 2015 02:00 Buckyman wrote:
Torte de Lini, are there any particular guides you want me to subject to the rigors of 2k mmr pub play? Doom (Jungle) That's what's on my list of heroes to test right now ): Since it's a jungle build, I sanity tested it in some bot games. The first two games, I had trouble (dying to neutrals or being forced back to fountain before level 3) despite starting by consuming 'recommended' creeps and collecting the bounty rune. After that, I added a single iron branch to my starting items and jungling went smoother in general. I'm not sure how much of the improvement was the branch vs. better play, but the branch seemed like the difference between first back at level 2 and first back at level 3. The sanity test passed in that, in the post-branch games, I hit level 6 before the enemy dual lanes. I also feel like the tangos should have a guide description that mentions using one to make a choke point. Note that I still haven't tried an actual game.
I'll test it out now, but I agree on the description for tangos.
On September 28 2015 20:09 Belisarius wrote:
Testing on a single jungle run is going to be more affected by which creeps you got and how many times you screwed up than whether or not you bought a branch.
On PMS etc, I've said this before, but I think removing small items in favour of rushing big ones is the absolute worst thing you can do.
Players will naturally tunnelvision on their radiance/BF/whatever and skip as many things as they think they can get away with. Since the average player will be opting to do this more-or-less at random, your guides should be pushing against that tendency, not encouraging it.
We pick and choose. I force everyone to buy Magic Wand but I don't force everyone to get PMS, Quelling Blade, Ring of Aquila. Sometimes it can be excessive.
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It's back on.
 Spectre
New Skill Build: Q W Q E Q R Q W W W R E E E (1. Spectral Dagger 2. Desolate 3. Dispersion)
Created New Tab: "Early Game"
Added Boots of Speed to "Early Game"
Added Wraith Band to "Early Game"
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Moved Ring of Aquila to "Early Game"
Removed Morbid Mask
Removed Vitality Booster
 Alchemist (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W (1. Acid Spray 2. Greevil's Greed 3. Unstable Concoction)
Added Quelling Blade to Situational Items
Moved Maelstrom to Core Items
Alchemist (Middle)
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Added Boots of Travel to Luxury Items
Moved Bottle to Core Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
Moved Abyssal Blade to Luxury Items
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Daedalus
Removed Butterfly
Removed Boots of Travel
Chaos Knight
Moved Black King Bar to Situational Items
Ogre Magi
Added Guardian Greaves to Situational Items
Removed Mekansm
 Witch Doctor
New Skill Build: Q E Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W R (1. Paralyzing Cask 2. Maledict 3. Voodoo Restoration
Added Power Treads to Core Items
Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Added Solar Crest to Extension Items
Moved Boots of Speed to Core Items
Moved Magic Wand to Core Items
Removed Arcane Boots
Removed Drums of Endurance
Removed Shiva's Guard
Terrorblade
New Skill Build: E Q E W E R E Q Q Q R W W W R (1. Reflection 2. Metamorphosis 3. Conjure Image)
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Core Items
Added Boots of Travel 2 to Luxury Items
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Monkey King Bar to Luxury Items
Removed Boots of Travel
Hero Texts Updated:
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
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We'll see how Terrorblade is. I want to move S&Y to Core and Manta and max Metamorphosis before Reflection, but let's do some more testing.
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u definitely max q first on TB absolutely no question
meta's actually kinda bad to max. It's nice to become ranged when needed and the damage is fabulous early in lane to bully an opponent but it's uses are basically limited to that since W is a better farming skill and Q is a better fighting skill. The uptime on meta improves slightly but not enough to remove the long minute-plus downtimes.
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I think I've identified the x-factor that leads to good jungle outcomes on Doom.
It's not the branch, it's using the satyr hp regen aura to get me through to level 2 scorched earth. I can also get decent results by eating a troll summoner and tanking with skeletons. The wildkin and wolf don't become good grabs until level 4+.
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On September 28 2015 23:34 Sn0_Man wrote:
u definitely max q first on TB absolutely no question
meta's actually kinda bad to max. It's nice to become ranged when needed and the damage is fabulous early in lane to bully an opponent but it's uses are basically limited to that since W is a better farming skill and Q is a better fighting skill. The uptime on meta improves slightly but not enough to remove the long minute-plus downtimes.
Just played a game with the new build. It's alright, had a lot of trouble figuring out his ideal role/timing.
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For  , we're probably going to max W first and Q second.
Shift him more into Phase/Blink/Drums/S&Y/AC/Heart
Add in Wand.
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On September 29 2015 01:27 Torte de Lini wrote:For , we're probably going to max W first and Q second. Shift him more into Phase/Blink/Drums/S&Y/AC/Heart Add in Wand.
As much as Doom relies on Q for farming speed, I agree that a QWWQ start is better than QWQW given my aforementioned difficulty sustaining to 4.
(E): Bot tests confirm this transpose generally leads to a faster 6.
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those items defnitely blow
u need mana and armor top priorities on doom plus there's no need to right click like a boss when all ur skills are big dmg nukes
Tranqs paradoxically got better on doom now since with them + 1 extra armor item (generally basi into vlads) and ur w up ur pretty unkillable (the idea being that a hero who's survivability is based on healing has a very high theoretical HP pool which makes armor much better).
I especially don't like drums. Heroes that buy that item are usually heroes looking for affordable HP and attack stats. Doom is stacked on HP already, but he has other holes to fill that drums don't address at all (he's already fast as fuck too)
Sny is also mega bad it's much worse at letting u hit people than shivas while also not fixing ur key issues (armor/mana).
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On September 29 2015 01:38 Sn0_Man wrote:
those items defnitely blow
u need mana and armor top priorities on doom plus there's no need to right click like a boss when all ur skills are big dmg nukes
Tranqs paradoxically got better on doom now since with them + 1 extra armor item (generally basi into vlads) and ur w up ur pretty unkillable (the idea being that a hero who's survivability is based on healing has a very high theoretical HP pool which makes armor much better).
I especially don't like drums. Heroes that buy that item are usually heroes looking for affordable HP and attack stats. Doom is stacked on HP already, but he has other holes to fill that drums don't address at all (he's already fast as fuck too)
The issue with Tranqs' is the maneuverability. Even with Phase and W, you're still relatively slow unless Phase is on. Blink Dagger helps initiate but it is impossible to stay on foes for a longer duration.
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ur definitely fast enough with w
buy shivas then ur opponents are slow as fuk
eat a kobold too if ur that concerned
reminder that u don't have to right click too much in fights cuz ur a spellcaster (read ur skills again LVL? is busted as fuk)
i mean, don't skip right clicks but if u can't get them in ur not like a lifestealer contributing nothing
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EPT
